Analyst to Associate - Direct Promotion
How common is it for an analyst to be promoted directly to associate? Why don't people do it more often? Do analysts ever move to another bank, without stopping to get an MBA, and become an associate?
How common is it for an analyst to be promoted directly to associate? Why don't people do it more often? Do analysts ever move to another bank, without stopping to get an MBA, and become an associate?
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Most people get burnt out after 2 - 3 years and the best analysts leave for better opportunities typically with greater pay and less hours.
If you're sure that you want to stay in banking and the economy is doing well, then it is not difficult at all to get promoted directly to associate. They might even try to convince you to stay. Just imagine: do you prefer someone who has had two years of experience in finance, knows everything in the group, and is very efficient... or would you rather have an MBA who did something completely unrelated and barely understands an excel model?
During economic contractions it is obviously harder but not impossible either. Analysts don't do it because (1) by their second year most of them are sick and tired of working 80+ hrs/wk, (2) they move to the buy side, (3) they move to do corp finance at a Fortune 500, or (4) they go back to business school to either move later to the buy side or a Fortune 500.
say you decide you want to stay in banking for the long haul and have the option of either going to business school or staying on for a third year and then being promoted directly to associate.
will bypassing the MBA hurt your chances in the long run for important promotions at your bank b/c the senior people feel more comfortable promoting an MBA?
for example, say you (sans MBA) and another MD (with an MBA) are competing for the group's head position- will the MBA guy have the advantage, ceteris paribus?
Although I obviously can't speak from experience, from what I observed last summer once you're in everthing becomes meritocratic. Your MBA is just your pass to get INTO the job. Once you're there nobody cares as long as you make money for the team and the company. If you made it to MD without an MBA it's because you're just as good as an MD with an MBA. Whether you become the group's head will depend on who is better, who has the best skills, the best contacts, the most experience. Now, in the hypothetical case that two MDs are exactly the same and the only difference is that one has an MBA... well, I don't know... I think the "hypothetical" case is just too hypothetical. 'Political campaigning' within the company may play an important role as well and may be the decisive factor (and weigh perhaps more than whether or not one has an MBA and the other doesn't).
The poster above is correct to some extent. The MBA does confer some advantages in terms of credibility as well as well-roundedness. Career bankers who made the A2A promote tend to have a more narrow perspective and encounter difficulty transitioning into a client-facing role after being an excel monkey for 6 years. There is also the issue of having a more limited network.
All else being equal, there is not a huge difference between those that have a MBA and those without. However, practically speaking, most would be better off getting it.
what about A2A and then moving to PE. How does that work.
Because after 2-3 years of 100-120 hours/week, most analysts, if not all, wants to take a break(MBA) or get out. And I've never heard of MD without MBA getting paid less than who does, although they'll never tell. However I've heard of women getting paid less than men sometimes.
I think the reason you don't hear about it more is bc most of this site is focused on getting to PE. Most of my BB interviewers were associates who were previously analysts (many had done the third yr as an analyst then became an associate).
The A2A promotion is actually pretty rare. Some banks offer an easier transistion, namely Wells/Wachovia, CS, DB, even UBS. Even so, most banks/groups will require you to be a 3rd year analyst, and then become an associate. Trust me, I left banking after 13 months...it is very easy to get burnt out if you work 100 hour weeks.
by the way, how's the new job going?
Work is going good. PE is much different than banking, but in a good and bad way. I actually prefer the work in banking, compared to the work in PE, however, the lifestyle is much better. I make it a point to take off either Saturday or Sunday, so I generally work about 6 days a week, around 70 hours a week, compared to 90-100 in banking. Also, the workload is generally more predictable than banking, which is much nicer. I have actually gotten a chance to get to know NY (shame considering I have lived here for a year and a half).
What is the typical salary and bonus for a third year analyst and a first year associate anyway?
Moneykingdom:
Seeing as how left your analyst position midway through the two year program, did that hurt you at all in trying to exit into PE? Generally, if you leave earlier than the standard two years, is it hard to get a better job on the buy-side?
The longer you stay on the sell side the harder it is to get to buy side.
Associates typically don't jump to PE.
Just wanted to clarify:
if the grass is greener on the other side (ex. PE), why doesn't everyone just leave after their analyst stint?
Well, it must be the case that the incentives to stay in banking are good. MDs still make a shitload of money.
has anyone ever heard about someone getting into the associate program (but then taking 2 yrs off to get MBA) and then coming back after u get it?
Yes, but usually they upgrade firms or groups. Very rare to find someone return to same group at same bank as an associate after MBA, unless they didn't have the option for A to A
banking hours are so over exaggerated on this site as usual
Citi and JP are big on A2A
Why analyst to associate? (Originally Posted: 07/14/2013)
Hey guys, I am about to start at my desk as an analyst at GHL/LAZ/EVR, and am doing some soul-searching as to what I want to do career-wise after my analyst program. I am definitely thinking of PE since that's what is on everybody's mind, but I am not completely opposed to working in IBD advisory for the long-run.
Are there any analysts --> associates in the house? Why did you become an associate?
Well if you're at GHL, then analyst -- > associate is not even an option
What is your source for this?
According to their website, http://www.greenhill.com/?option=com_content&task=view&id=96&Itemid=222
"The full-time program requires a two year commitment and strong performers are offered the opportunity to remain with the Firm as a third year Analyst. Exceptional performers may be offered a direct promotion to Associate after three years as an Analyst."
Have friends that work there, as of last year the 3rd year offer rate has always been 0, it just doesn't happen. Maybe they just changed it.
Strange, I always thought boutiques were more likely to promote from within...
No personal experience but 100% of the associates at my shop are direct promotes. Seems like a decent gig. when things are slow, most work 50-60 hours/week, and we pay analyst/associates above street (afterwards, its more dependent on personal/firm performance).
I think its dependent on the shop, there are a few places I wouldn't take jobs from unless they let me skip a year or 2 in terms of progression due to reduced job security/increased facetime. Alternatively, if you like where you work and have the option to stay, it may be as good an alternative unless you're dying to do PE.
You haven't started an analyst role at a top boutique yet and you're already considering whether you want to stay on as an associate? Okaaaaay then...talk to us in 6 months and tell us if you want to be an associate at that point.
You're totally right. 2+ years later I'm now at a hedge fund. Haha
.
Thanks for the great replies @neanderthal. SB'd
Analyst to Associate promotion after 1 year? (Originally Posted: 03/18/2011)
My friend at a BB said that he was promoted to associate after 1 year of being an analyst (graduated 2009, promoted mid-2010). Is this possible? I've never heard of this happening... I've heard of analysts being promoted after 2 years but never 1 year.
He's in a MO position (risk) if that helps.
MO and BO titles are different, for example, I have a friend who graduated in '08 and works in risk at a large bank. She's already a Jr. VP or some such title less than 36 months into the job.
Also, it can happen in S&T as well where the hierarchy is less structured. HOWEVER, I did work with an associate in IBD who became an associate after one and half years of the analyst stint. But this was a non BB European bank
I know there was a 28 year MD at Bear, in IBD, so this does happen.
MD is a different story altogether. In IBD (BB), analyst to associate is standardized at either 2 or 3 years, but afterward is based far more off of merit/office politics and there's less rigidity. Moving Associate > VP > MD by 28 would happen if you're a rainmaker.
S&T is far less rigid, there was a guy posting on here a month or two back about moving to Associate in less than a year. You'll rise through the ranks there as quickly as you deserve.
How did you get promoted from analyst to associate? (Originally Posted: 02/05/2011)
Hey all,
If you were once promoted from an IB analyst to associate, I would greatly appreciate learning about how this came to fruition for you.
How did you differentiate yourself? What played the largest role?(efficiency, pure intellect, hard work, or mastery of office politics) I know all is important, but who becomes the best analyst... the smartest, or the hard worker whom is very likable?
Thanks,
IBankedout
i'm guessing soft hands had something to do with it.
nice one haha
you just do your job...theres no secret formula
Investment Banking - Analyst to Associate (A2A) (Originally Posted: 05/06/2013)
Disclaimer to start: Yes, I've tried using the search function but nothing good / recent on this topic.
Can anyone who has done this / will be doing this give reasons on why they chose to do it?
I'm currently an Analyst at a middle-tier BB, our group does not send people to megafunds or MM shops even, basically take what you get around here.
My rationale: Why go to some IB.
Anyone have input on if this will be a decision I regret 5 - 10 years from now?
Thanks
I think it's all up to you - I know a couple MDs who did that and they basically stayed there for 20 years. Bit boring but stable. The real question is if you'll mind the burnout or not.
Out of curiosity what year analyst are you and do you think that A2A is a sure shot for you if you go for it? I've heard at different banks/groups it can range from almost impossible even if you want it to incredibly easy as long as you're average/above average and indicate you want it.
I'm a second year but got ranked in top quartile of firm and have very positive reviews / relationships, so would say it is. Have also been approached by other banks to come over and do a 3rd year there with acknowledgement that if I perform well, there is an mutual option for Associate promotion.
Promotion from 3rd yr analyst to associate (Originally Posted: 05/24/2011)
How likely is it to get promoted to associate when joining as an associate 3 (without direct prior IB background but consulting only) at the next round table?
I have the impression that once you are in, it is difficult to have sufficient internal support within short timeframe and likely to be stuck at analyst 3 for longer.
Any insights from people with similar profile you might have come across would be appreciated.
I would think they intend on promoting you if they hired you as a 3rd year analyst. Wasn't that one of the questions you asked during your interviews - I sure would have wanted to know that.
But yes, generally you need some goodwill and some firm support to get the associate offer, but it would be odd for them to just hire you for one year, or at least expect you to be a third year analyst for two years..., especially at smaller banks
you seem to be softly supportive of the idea that it is tough to be directly promoted to associate whilst there are other analysts battling to become associate for 3 yrs minimum. What are usually the promotion rates at a bulge bracket bank? 2/3?
Analyst to associate promotions/bonuses (Originally Posted: 03/10/2008)
When do 2nd/3rd year analysts typically find out if they are promoted?
Also, do you still get the full associate signing bonus?
That would mean a 2nd/3rd year bonus in July + signing bonus (when?) + bump to $95/100k salary and then a stub bonus paid out in January, correct?
Question along those same lines, do many analyst get promoted to associates after 2 years
I can only answer that most analysts do NOT get promoted to associate after 2 years.
Typically you find out around the same time as senior level bonuses are paid out, eg Feb/Mar. This is to give you enough time to find a job should you not get the position. They generally begin discussions with you as to your interest after you get paid your first bonus (July), then come Nov/Dec they start deciding whether or not its a good idea by talking to you more.
Sometimes they pay out the full associate sign-on bonus, but not always (varies by firm).
You will get the bonus in July plus the bump then the stub regardless
It used to be the case that star analysts could get promoted after 2 years. However, recently many banks have taken the stance that they will not make exceptions to the analyst promotion schedule. I ran head first into this one with my group head, the head of lev fin, and a bunch of other people up the line asking for them to do it only to be shot down by the CFO.
The schedule may be slightly different at every bank. During your first full year formal review (when you are given numbers) is when I was extended my third year offer. Associate offers were extended the same time the following year. Soft offer deadlines were in October, hard deadlines in November.
I only know one person to get promoted early to associate.
moved to the two year promote (first time in a decade) and 3rd year analyst-2nd year associate promote in IBD (for the best analysts) last year to try to keep people at the firm. It didn't work that well last spring (most star 1st years just passed and took their PE/HF jobs), not even sure if they are offering it this year given conditions.
That's interesting, I had no idea it was firmwide initiative. The person who I know promoted early (at GS) passed on his PE offer.
Analyst to Associate Signing Bonus (Originally Posted: 06/30/2010)
Is it typical for analyst to associate promotions to be given a signing bonus (similar to the 20k - 40k bonus an MBA grad would receive when joining)?
I'd imagine so. Why would they penalize you?
i agree - they shouldn't. thanks
Speaking of this transition, is the analyst to associate comp similar to that of an MBA associate?
Curious about this as well.
Regards
if u get analyst to associate promotion you are perceived as good enough to not go to grad school. obviously they will pay you the same or more than the new associates coming out of grad school.
When I was promoted from Analyst to Associate in 2007, I received a 40k sign on.
Analyst to Associate - Work for three years as an analyst (Originally Posted: 03/19/2011)
So, I'm at my spring week stage of this long process of gaining a place at an IB full time. I land a summer offer and subsequently a graduate scheme in London. I'm over the moon by 2013.
I work for three years as an analyst and finish at 2016, then is there a good chance of being hired as an associate or is it natural to go to business school and get an MBA and apply again? I'd prefer to not take the MBA route and work from the off; how common is this? Does getting an MBA really give you an edge over people who have had the 3 year direct experience?
In the long run it may hurt you ( at the VP/MD levels) when you're expected to start bringing in new accounts.
MBAs are not needed in Europe unless you need to change career.
Analyst to Associate - How long does it take? (Originally Posted: 07/25/2006)
how long does the 1st year associate stent last for someone promoted from analyst. if a third year is promoted to associate say jul-07, understand that he/she will receive 1st year associate comp from aug-07 to jan-08 (or dec) and receive stub bonus in jan-08. (or dec) will he/she be a 1st or 2nd year associate from jan-08 to jan-09? question of whether the 1st year associate is 0.5 or 1.5 years for someone promoted from analyst. is this pretty standard or does that depend other factors. thanks.
generally speaking, the asociate stint lasts 3 or 4 years. If you are an Associate for 5 years, then something is wrong. Usually you are associate 3 years before you become VP.
Do associates work crazy hours like analyst's do?
Not as much as analysts but their work hours are by no means a cakewalk.
Internal Analyst to Associate (Originally Posted: 03/21/2009)
Does anyone know if BB firms have internal analyst to associate promotions without an MBA? I know Morgan Stanley has something like that, what about GS/CS/DB?
it's very rare at prestigious BBs and MMs. You can do it at other banks, however.
I think it was rare because no analyst wanted to do an analysgt -> associate promote if they could go to PE
This happens in Asia. Three years analyst -> Associate.
I don't know of any US banks that absolutely require an MBA. If you're good, they want you.
Some regional and satellite offices do a lot of direct promote.
All of the major us banks will do direct analyst to associate promote. The program across the board is 2 year analyst stint with an option for a 3rd at both parties discretion. Then they either offer you an associate promote or not. You have conversations with your bosses far before they will offer either the extension or the associate offer.
For awhile, it tended to be rare for two reasons, the good analysts had exit options and they didn't like the bad analysts.
Analyst to Associate Promotion (Originally Posted: 03/02/2010)
I've read a lot about how hard it is to go from an ibanking analyst to associate at the BB banks (usually less than 10%), but how hard is it at the elite boutiques (EVR, GHL, LAX, Moelis, BX)? Do the analysts that want to stay in banking and not go into PE, actually have a good shot at staying? Does anybody working at the aforementioned boutiques know how many 2nd year analysts in their class were given the opportunity to stay? Thanks in advance.
its more common than you think, when times are good. Of course more jump to PE when times are good.
bump
i've herd that 10% number thrown around for BBs but i think it is highly misleading. you have to think that the top analysts will go onto PE/HF and other really good analysts that don't get into PE/HF would much rather go onto another role (corp development, etc.) rather than think of staying to do banking for another few years. it definitely takes a special kind of person to even want to go straight through from analyst to associate. sorry i couldn't shed any light on the boutiques, but i kno it's not incredibly difficult to do even at BBs if you are motivated, good at your job, and still have a high interest in ibanking
Analyst to Associate - Promoted directly? (Originally Posted: 08/07/2006)
How often are Analysts promoted directly to Associate? It seems as though many don't do this. Is this a supremely difficult feat or unchartered territory because of the stress/hours?
definitely possible, but often unwanted BC of burnout
Its better to explore different fields (ie - PE, HF, even research) and then figure out if you want to go back into banking. Associate life is worse than analyst life.
to make. To hang out another year, and than to become an associate. I can't begin to understand why you would do such a thing.
Im starting work as an analyst next July and after 3 years as an analyst the firm makes me leave or go to business school (which they'll pay for, thank god) then its a 2 year binding employment as an associate. They've said that its very rare in the firm for the direct transition to happen.
a
HokieAnalyst-what bank do you work for? Is it a normal occurance for firms to pay for your MBA?
After my third-year analyst stint, I took a job as an associate at a different firm. At the time they said only the top 10% of analysts were promoted to associates, so it was a major coup. However, it was a very different job. Instead of being told to do things, you were told to manage people and processes, including analysts, MDs and clients. I could do very well all of the analyst tasks, but after being promoted I had to do all of that as well as a whole suite of other tasks. It took me less than a year to decide I needed an MBA to be good associate and above. I've now done that and an back in the game. It is shocking how much better able I am now to cope with challenges after my MBA. I generally think analysts should go back for their MBA, not because they can't be associates without it, but because they will be better associates with it.
Holymonkey: The firm im working for has a analyst merit type program. If you show you know what you're doing and are smart, the firm will send you to one of the top 10 business schools. They do this to keep the good analysts in the business and promote them to associate for a minimum of two years after grad school. After this summer, when offering me the full time job the MD in my division said that this would probably be the case for me if I did as well as I did over the summer. Whether I'm recommended or not is to be seen at the end of my analyst stint.
So to sum it up, if you do well in your 3 year tenure as an analyst, you get a nice year end bonus as well as a free top-10 MBA. However, not all analysts are recommended as it is the decision of the MDs.
I agree
Analyst to Associate - Will I be too old for an associate? (Originally Posted: 12/13/2007)
Guys,
Let say Im an Analyst(age 25, expereince hire in I banking) and I am promoted to an associate 1-2 year. If I plan to do my MBA( being an associate). After getting my MBA. Will I be still looking for Associate jobs or Senior Assoicate? I will be 29. Will I be too old for an assoicate? Are ppl becoming Vice President by that age? Please advice
Are you asking about the scenario where you are promoted to Associate, then stay for 1-2 years in that role, and then decide to go to business school? (I think this is what you mean).
If you go that route you will be in an awkward and uncommon situation because you won't be an entry-level Associate but you won't have the experience to be a VP either. I actually don't even know how/where banks would place you in this situation - you might just be a Senior Associate as you suggested.
Bottom line is if you want to go to business school, do it between Analyst and Associate... no reason to be an Associate for a few years and then go.
People who have done banking since they graduated will be VPs by age 29, so you'll be behind as well.
At 29 yes there will be people who are VPs at that point. That being said, it is not impossible to bypass some of the process. But why not go to B-school in 1-2 years that is the best time to go in my opinion. Then come back as an associate, or better yet make the jump to a good pe/hf shop. With the 1-2years of analyst work you should be a good candidate for those positions. I am a big supporter of getting your MBA sooner rather than later.
don't worry, you won't get promoted to VP with that shitty grammar
This made me laugh. I totally agree. What exactly was the OP asking again? I was lost after the first sentence.
maybe he wants to do an extra year of two in the associate position because that would add meat to the work exp and help in admission to a top MBA vs just two years of work exp?
If you're directly promoted to associate post-analyst and you want to remain in banking long-term, there is no reason for you to get your MBA. There's no point in getting an MBA as an associate and then returning to banking after the MBA, as the MBA is what most analysts use to get to the associate position in the first place.
Thanks for making my question clear. Sorry guys about the grammar. Currently working late and posting questions.
I am trying to add more Ibanking Experience on my resume before I go Bschool. If I am promoted to Associate. I plan to do 2 years of being associate. This would give me more time to get in to deal details. As I told you, I am going to be hired as an experience candidate. But folks at the firm do get promoted to associate from Analyst.
I am currently 25. I was hired in to the bank not from College. Do you feel I will be too old to be a VP at the age of 29-31?
i dont think age matters that much man (woman). I have seen 35 yr old associates. You'd still make much much more dough than any normal corporate carrer at age 29. Even if you make VP by 31, you would probably make MD by the time you are 40. Is that that bad? Pulling over a million a year by age 38-40 would seem ridiculous in most professions. Look at management consultantancy, which is def one of the most prestigious jobs in the US, they make peanuts compared to bankers (note-source:others in this forum).
I know money is not the end all and be all, but I think its a good parameter to put things into perspective a little bit.
even if you have to RESTART your associate stint post business school (unlikely I think), won't you rather work these two extra years now and get a Harvard MBA that will stay with you for the rest of your life? What if in business school you discover a completely new path like may be venture capital or doing something on your own...are you willing to bet losing out those revelations and opportunities for a lousy year or two here and there?
Sorry for the rambling, the rain is making me philosophical...
Good Points. I wish I could get have gotten in to a good analyst program. I am learning everything by my self. Bank training aint that good. You learn as you progress. ..
Pay is good. Hope to get more points from you..
Yeah I agree with the above, would have been good to get into a good training program. That's what associatehood is for lol.
Analyst to Associate - Transitioning? (Originally Posted: 10/18/2011)
So if I'm not mistaken, the transition from analyst to associate goes something like this:
3rd year Analyst salary (90k pro rated): 45k 3rd year bonus: 100k Associate sign on bonus: 40k Associate 0 salary (100k unconfirmed) pro rated:50k Associate 0 stub bonus: 40 - 80k (estimate)
Total comp : 275k to 315k?? Seems absurd..
Are you a third year analyst? Have you worked your life away for 3 years?
Where did you get those figures from?
You are double-counting the 3rd year analyst bonus with the stub year bonus. You need to pro-rate the 3rd year analyst bonus. But the figure, surprisingly isn't too far off. In that A-to-A year, you will see something more in the range of $225,000 to $250,000. In an associate's first full-year, all-in comp ranges from $275,000 to $325,000 based on the figures I have seen.
Check out - http://www.wallstreetcomps.com/index.asp That resource shows you compensation ranges for associates and above.
.
Not sure how in double counting the 3rd year bonus and the stub. As a 3rd year you will get 100k top for the past years worth of performance since you don't get bumped to associate until the end of your third analyst year (ie July 2012). When you receive this bonus you will get jumped bumped up to associate 0 salary. A few monts later you get a stub bonus for ~6 months of work, which is separate from the analyst bonus. So therefore I get 275-315k. Only variable here is the 40k sign-on bonus that all new associates get.
You aren't double counting the two separate bonuses, necessarily, you are just accounting for too much of the 3rd year bonus in that second half of the year. The reason you would prorate the analyst bonus is to have an apples-to-apples comparison. By prorating the salary for your 3rd year, you are implying that you are trying to figure out how much you would make in a given 12 month time frame...Jan to Dec...which is why you "should" only count half of the 3rd year bonus.
So the actual figure should be about $50k less...but I think the point you are trying to get to is that it's a crazy amount of money. Realistically, you will have an influx of about $140k for the year, plus your checks will be several hundred dollars higher. Then, I believe that you will get another increase in Jan to like $120k or $125k is my understanding...could be wrong though, maybe someone can confirm or deny...and that's in addition to higher bonuses.
Regards
250 to 350 all-in for A1's at BB's
Don't take the WSO salary data at face value... I would imagine the distribution is bimodal with BB's / elite boutiques at one end and regional, smaller IB's at the other end
Bonuses that high are a thing of the past nowadays.
$100k for a 3rd year analyst? Doesn't seem that far off. I'm fairly certain my friend, who is the 2nd year I mentioned above, had somewhere in the neighborhood of $70k-$80k and he, technically, wasn't top bucket...so it doesn't seem too far off. At any rate, what are we talking about $120k or $130k vs $140k??
Regards
the birdman - your calculation is correct.. infact i was doing this math a couple of days ago and yeah when u become an A from an N, u make good money..
Note to self - Grind hard and make Associate
It's about right. Also, don't forget the "mandatory" 2 (or is it 3) week vacation?
You are not double counting, however, third year bonus is for the past 12 months and then stub is for the next 6 months after the promotion, so you are count the bonus for a 18-month period here, not 12-month.
If you cut your 3rd year bonus by half to 50K, then you are getting 225K to 265K, which is a lot more reasonable for a 12-month comp. Essentially, the only extra portion is really the signing on bonus of 40K. If you take that out, you are just making 185K to 225K, which is just a little bit extra money than what you get for your 2nd full year.
Also, you 3rd year bonus of 100K is top rank bonus in this market I think, which means not everyone can get it. Your upper range of the stub bonus (80K) is probably not going to happen for a long while. 40 - 50K is a more realistic number.
The Direct (A2A) Promote: Advice and Tips (Originally Posted: 05/29/2014)
Hi All,
I recently landed an SA spot at a top MM bank (HL, Blair, HW). My end goal is to stay on the sell-side and work my way up through the ranks of the bank where I will be summering.
Despite how frequently this path gets shit on in these forums, I wanted to reach out to get some advice on how one best positions themselves to get the direct promote from Analyst to Associate (Should I express interest in promotion from the get go? Are there certain people I should appeal to?).
And also, how competitive is it to be directly promoted? I should note that direct promotion has been historically more common at this bank relative to the BB and others in the middle market (about 1 out of every 5 or 6 analysts).
Thanks for taking the time.
You should have a clear conversation with your group about it, it depends on every bank. Most BBs have clear paths now for A-A promotes, so as long as you're not terrible most ppl have the option of staying. It's really once you're VP the paths becomes more unclear.
Also, I would try to keep an open mind when coming in for other opportunities as well. Always evaluate your alternatives.
Focus on getting the FT offer first - one step at a time.
Your desire to become an associate is irrelevant if your bank doesn't have the desire to keep you on full time. Just do a good job, get along with others, try to learn a lot, and don't go overboard with the "banking 4 life, yo" mentality. Hell, you haven't even started yet and are already saying you want to become an associate. Goals are good, but don't let your lack of experience make you come across as some blinded, naive kid.
Revisit this thread after 6mo. of your FT stint. I'd like to see what you think about an A2A promotion then
I understand addressing (or blasting) the fact that he is only a mere SA and should not be thinking about A2A promotions, but can you guys actually answer the question? If he didn't give out that information that would have changed everything. At the end of the day, whether or not he is a SA or a 1st/2nd/3rd Year, giving him helpful information can not only help him out, but also others who are searching for the same answer.
Focus on doing a good job for the first few months. In your mid-year review, if you've done well and the group wants to keep you-you'll know. I'd bring up your interest then. If you're a mid-bucket performer, the majority of places will give you a 3rd year offer. The top analysts (and this obviously varies by culture, hiring need) are more likely to get a true A2A.
As a summer, I would not mention it to anyone - how much people like you is as important as your work product (to a point). If you start asking A-2-A questions, the juniors will likely think you're just kissing ass, or worse... crazy. Figuring out what the culture with regards to A2A by looking at the background of the associates and VPs.
Or you can go to Europe. Out there, 3rd year -> A2A is the default career path;in other words, if you don't quit or get fired, you automatically get the 3rd year and A2A promotion. MBA is not a big thing across the pond, and most of their associates come from A2A, instead of MBA.
Any advice on A2M?
A to A after 2 years (Originally Posted: 08/12/2007)
Anyone know about being promoted to Associate in ib after only 2 years as analyst?
...heard that GS is starting to this year......???
Goldman does this for the top 1 or 2 analysts in each group.
There aren't too many 2 year promotes because the analysts that are good enough to get selected for this program usually end up going to the top PE or HF shops.
This is another reason why they lose top analysts to PE and HF shops.
doubt with the crash in this market this is happening? can anyone confirm?
It has happened to 2 people at my firm.
"LIVING THE DREAM 24/7 ON http://THEALLNIGHTER.BLOGSPOT.COM"
Program is still active at goldman.
Analyst -> Associate (Originally Posted: 02/22/2008)
It seems like everyone is so concerned about exit opps, but what if I really like banking and want to continue without going to B-school. I mean how hard is it to get promoted directly to Associate? Do firms even care about developing their analyst's enough so that they would be really solid VP's and MD's?
We recently hired a guy at a top BB group that was just promoted directly to associate after his 2nd analyst year. I think it's possible if you're a star and/or there is a desperate need to fill associate spots. As far as this "really liking banking" concept, I'm sorry I've never heard of that happening.
3 all-nighters in a row will quickly diminish your love for banking, 27 revisions of the same paragraph will quickly rain on your banking parade, and dealing with the word processing/printing department hours before your pitch book is due for a meeting with a financial sponsor will also quell your enthusiasm...
One reason i-banks have a 2 year program is so that they can ride their analyst class as hard as possible and then kick them out
Also, the skill sets necessary to be a good analyst are very different from those needed to be a good VP, MD, etc (although the standard pre-req still exist, i.e. strong work ethic, insatiable desire for money, etc. still exist)
Good luck
While these guys are trying to scare you, banking isn't that bad. I really liked it and strongly considered staying on for my 3rd year and taking a direct promote to associate. How hard is it? Assuming you still want it after 3 years, and you're half decent (which you would be otherwise you wouldn't get a 3rd year offer), not very hard at all. For the record, there are alot of things I liked better about my time at banking than PE.
Could you elaborate on this? Thanks
1) People - Not saying that I dislike the people I work with now, but I loved the group I was in when I was in banking. All the analysts got along extremely well, the associates went out with us a lot, and sometimes the VPs would come, as well. Directors took us out to lunch (especially if they were sensing we were all getting crushed) and weekend excursions. This is also a function of the median age of bankers being lower vis a vis PE professionals. 2) Institutionalized - This is good and bad. But since we're naming the good: Better support (graphics, word processing, printing) and better infrastructure (IT, excel shortcut macros, powerpoint layouts, etc.). 3) Better variety - I guess this becomes a non-issue once I've had years of portfolio company experience, but I liked the fact that I could be working on an M&A assignment, LBO, IPO, convert, debt offering, or any combination. I also liked working with the product teams and learning about the different nuances associated each product.
4) Fast-paced - I don't necessarily get bored working now, but while banking days were very long, they flew by because of the amount of work and the pace of the workday. At the end of each day, you felt like you covered alot of ground and learned quite a bit.
However, I'm still extremely happy I made the move (especially given the way the markets have gone), and my opposing list for PE would probably be twice as long.
Can you please post your list for PE?
Though one point to consider is that in a recession, both external hiring and internal promotions slow down. If this were 2006 and you had wanted to stay on as an Associate rather than going to that lucrative PE job, it would have been much easier.
I also happen to agree that it's not necessarily THAT crazy to want to stay on doing banking long-term. I would not do it, and in fact am not doing it, but it could make sense for some people.
And to be honest, what you do work-wise on the buyside is not that much different... yes, there's less stupid work and not as many firedrills, but it's still modeling, diligence, etc. so if you don't like that work to begin with, it's silly to think that going to the buyside will make it all magically better.
I guess to begin with, I selectively interviewed with upper middle market firms that had less headcount in terms of investment professionals. I didn't want to be an analyst for another 2 or 3 years, nor did I particularly care for the lifestyle. As a result deal teams at my firm are small; 3 professionals most times, maybe 4 if its a big or important account. Generally, you work at your own pace and there's not a dozen people (or more) breathing down your neck. There is much more responsibility and along with it, much more stress - you are held accountable for much more than you were in banking (at least in banking, an overlooked error was always the fault of the associate, ha).
You also get quite a bit more exposure to, well, just about everything. Whenever I have questions about a model I'm building or company I'm researching, I call whoever I need to speak to - the sellside bankers, the portfolio company CFO, our outside counsel, etc. There's not as much fear that you'll screw something up by the senior guys. In banking, I felt like MD's were always afraid to let you be alone with a company CEO or CFO, like you'd spontaneously combust and the flames would damage the CFO's shoes, or something. Senior guys in PE tend to trust you more. I once put together a CIM-type document for one of our smaller companies. In banking, this would take probably 3 weeks to put together, with maybe a hundred iterations between the Associate, VP, Director and MD before the final product got sent to the printer. It would probably be many late nights or all nighters, and it would always come down to the wire in terms of deadlines. In this particular case, my firm sent me alone across the country to the company, where I worked with the CFO and VP of Finance for just 2 days, and it was done. Things are much more efficient in private equity in that perspective.
And of course, the obvious things: lifestyle, small perks (office, corporate jet, board meetings that transform into golf/ski outings, company dinners). Mostly though, the fact that you play a bigger role in your team than you did in banking - but again, probably more stress and higher expectations.
Do you do any deal sourcing or is your job mostly execution work? Lots of friends in PE now at growth equity and MM firms do a lot of cold-calling, and I can't say it really sounds appealing to me.
I know it's important and you have to be out there getting deals to work on, but it would be pretty boring to spend all day cold-calling all the companies on the Inc 5000 list.
If you do any sourcing, do you find it valuable? Or is it just a waste of time?
Why don't bankers just go and work for hedge funds instead of working for PE firms? It seems hedge fund work is a lot more fun than PE work, although I haven't worked with either of the two so my opinion might be incredibly wrong.
No sourcing work. I asked specifically not to interview with firms with sourcing models (although I considered interviewing with Thoma Cressey at one point after they told me it was 15% of my time, but ended up passing). A friend of a friend works for a sourcing model PE here in town and hates it. He also has some sort of performance quota he has to meet so that they know he is calling X amount of clients per day, which seems pretty ridiculous.
Hedge funds were never very appealing to me, as odd as that sounds. I didn't even consider HF. As stupid as it sounds, I never had enough of an interest in the markets to follow them everyday, let alone every minute. I knew I wasn't a good fit for HF, so I didn't pursue it. Same reason I went into banking and not trading.
i made sure the PE shop i am joining has no sourcing, period.
none of the top shops (BX, KKR etc.) have sourcing, except i've heard of Bain Capital having some? i think it may have been their new vc division which is close to 90% sourcing. not sure.
Analyst -> Associate / Consultant promotes (Originally Posted: 11/06/2010)
Anyone here an associate or consultant (i.e., post-MBA level) that has been promoted from an analyst position?
I'm an analyst-promote at a boutique healthcare consulting shop.
If so, what have been your experiences with regards to:
At my firm, analyst-promotes are paid about 67% of post-MBA and 80% of post-PhD associates. I can totally understand that as starting salaries (there's obviously value in letters following your name to the firm/clients)... but even if you're an analyst-promote performing at top-of-distribution relative to post-MBA/PhDs, you're paid significantly less on an ongoing basis. This pay discrepancy continues until about the senior manager level (~3-4 years down the road).
Is this normal at other consulting firms? If not, how long until "equalization" between those without and with degrees?
Same boat for me - high standing in Analyst group and currently weighing cost/benefit of MBA. Interested in feedback.
I would say that your experience sounds about right - where I am at it looks like there is a 25-50% difference with MBA associates depending on where the MBA came from and other factors... I am going to wait when the time comes, to go to Bschool when I can get a good deal on my costs, and when I feel stagnant at work. Years down the line for now...
Agreed, About 40% difference with Top 10 MBA hires and around 30-35% with experienced hires doing the same thing. There are mechanisms in place to lower there annual raises compared to mine on a percentage basis, but not enough to make up that gap in next couple of years, etc.
No difference at my MBB - a post-MBA = analyst-promote.
Hey chron3k, so you know about the specifics of my situation already, but I can tell you that at my new firm, they have pretty wide salary brackets for each position, and usually graduate degrees allow you to be at the higher end of the bracket. They hired other people at my level who didnt have a graduate degree, who are getting about 20K less for the same job. I think education becomes irrelevant around the Senior Manager level.
Acquisitions: How to go from Analyst to Associate? (Originally Posted: 09/29/2017)
These questions are directed to any acquisitions-focused Associates/VPs who work for a REIT, Fund, Operator, etc:
How did you all transition from Analyst to Associate? What were the main responsibilities that changed? What "qualities" of an Associate are sought after?
I am one of two acquisition analysts at my firm, we both handle underwriting, research, make powerpoints, write memos, etc. I am the more senior analyst and often work directly with our partners and brokers. My view of an “associate” is someone who still handles the technical stuff, but is also supporting efforts to source and execute deals. I want to make that transition but want to fully understand what is expected and see if any of you may be able to share some insight. Thanks!
It is very firm dependent. Some Associates do the same thing as analysts, but are paid more. At some firms you may have more responsibility or begin to get involved in more. It isn't really a question that can be answered. I would suggest talking with the partners of your firm on their expectations.
I work at a small fund in acquisitions. To take the next step up from anaylst you need to do the following:
Require less oversight on modeling/underwriting and be reliable in reviewing younger analysts work
Be able to formulate arguments both verbally and in writing when you are pitching a deal internally or externally
Come up with somewhat original ideas on deal structuring
Take ownership of DD
Relationship and business development
As you move up in almost any industry it becomes more about soft skills.
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