Are there more lucrative careers?
What I'm asking is pretty smile: are there more lucrative finance-based careers giving more base, bonus, and overall pay than I-Banking? I'm asking for a career to start out with right out of college.
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trading, hedge funds
But:
For trading, you start out with 40k-60k, and it depends on your performance. So that's a con
And for Hedge Funds, you generally need to be experienced right? No one hires people out of college.
I was thinking more in terms of smaller quant trading firms. If you are at a target there are some hedge funds that recruit out of undergrad, but you would generally need quantitative background for both of these. I feel like if you don't have a quant background, IB will probably be the best bet
K thanks for the heads up. I'll probably stick to IB because it has a good salary progression and generally less risk in losing your job. Besides, if your an MD, then the salary's pretty good.
getting paid on performance sounds like a con?
that might be the most entitled thing I've ever read...ever.
you don't perform, you don't deserve shit.
stay woke.
Finance-based kind of limits your options straight out of school and IB is about as high as you get from an all-in comp and stability standpoint.
Outside of finance, there's always sales (if you are good and in the right field, you will make a multiple of what you would in banking), oil & gas corporate rotations (extremely tough/competitive but you can make a ton of money) and owning your own business
K thanks for the input. I'll probably try to break into IB and then move onto HF
Whats so great about these oil and gas rotations? How tough are they to get?
I do not know of any other career paths that require no advanced degree and no special skillset, yet pay as high as IB does.
Enterprise software.
O&G isn't bad either but I highly recommend to stay away right now.
Open for debate if selling Enterprise software requires real skills. The rejection and other stuff can take a toll.
I met a guy at my gym who is a diamond trader. He is not trading for a bank or a fund, but the real deal - actual diamonds. No apprenticeship, degree or any formal education required. He gets to travel the world (mostly US, UK, Belgium, South Africa, India) and makes a decent amount of money (obviously didn't ask how much). Another friend I grew up with from Europe buys and sells horses. Again, I don' t know how much he makes but his lifestyle is way better than mine (he was too lazy to attend any college or school anyhow but still manages to make a good living now).
There are quite a few professions or jobs that rely on relationships, business/finance skills, experience and the awareness to notice opportunities. These two examples also explain why someone like me didn't see the opportunities or why I couldn't do it - I simply lack any interest in or knowledge of diamonds or horses (or similar goods/services).
Thanks for all your input everyone. It's starting to get a little bit philosophical.
You gotta learn to just enjoy the ride and how to just go with things.
Being a software engineer at Facebook. If you interned there and got the offer back it is 100K signing + 110K salary + 40K stock a year for new grads. Here's what the salary progression looked like for an average performer in that bracket:
2013: 250 2014: 200 2015: 275 (reset) 2016: 300 2017: 450 (reset)
Resets are basically promotions where your responsibilities significantly change and your comp level is "reset." I know atleast six people that are on this exact track with nearly the same comp. They work 10 - 7, no weekends with 60 hours weeks around crunch times. They get resets every two years or so as a part of their natural progression. These guys are all high performers though that went to top target schools.
But who gets to make it to Facebook. 90% of IT companies pay software engineers below 100k to start out. Only Facebook and couple other companies do what your talking about.
Yep that's why I didn't say software engineering. I said Facebook. AirBnB does something similar but has an even higher bar with illiquid stock. I'm not claiming being a software engineer is better. I am saying being a software engineer at Facebook will net you more money early on in your career.
100k sign on bonus??
Yep. I don't know why it has become a thing, but AirBnB does something similar. A few other companies are in the 40ish range, but 100K is definitely a Facebook thing. With the money made during internships + the signing bonus, it allows you to be student-loan free in just a couple of years. I know my friends like it for that reason.
I apologize for the forwardness but you seem to come across as quite entitled. Granted, I don't fault others for chasing a career solely for lucrativeness (we all do to some extent), the combination of all the criteria you are seeking in a job comes across as both superficial and lazy:
1) Great base and bonus right out of undergrad (100k+ pay) 2) Not limited to exclusive employers (e.g. SE at Google) 3) Salaries not tied to your performance (hell, even banking has buckets) 4) "Easy progression into riches"
Simply based on the principles of supply and demand, you do recognize that a high paying job often corresponds to either a prestigious degree and educational background, e.g. Doctor/Lawyer, a developed/rare skillset tied to your outperforming others, e.g. Sales/trading, and/or willingness to put in tremendous effort to learn and do seemingly trivial tasks for a lucrative project, e.g. junior banker.
I would try to be more down-to-earth and re-evaluate what exactly you want to do and are willing to give up for, since your mentality wouldn't last too long in banking even if you do receive an offer.
Commercial Construction Management is huge right now, at least in the South. Kids from state schools pulling 80k+ right out of undergrad with experienced Project Managers pulling 200k+ before their 30th birthday. Though they always run the risk of losing everything if in the wrong field at the wrong time
Enjoy burning out once you realize that money is not happiness and you hate what you're doing.
There are definitely some (very few, but some) corporate jobs straight out of college that offer similar value all up packages - good salary, rent covered, transport provided. Good thing about these is that they'd often don't target any particular degree, so you can still gear yourself towards banking/engineering/whatever and have it as another option.
What jobs?
I know of one specific large, privately owned industrial conglomerate with operations on every continent. Graduates are expected to rotate through different businesses in different places. Because of this, their rent is paid and their transport provided, on top of a salary that's significantly higher than most graduate jobs but lower than IB total comp.
Probably Jane Street and the like.
Banking, Consulting, S&T, Research, technical/product roles at top tech companies, quant/prop trading, Hedge Funds, PE, AM, top corporate law..
These are all tiny tiny sectors in terms of manpower and their recruiting processes rule out 99% of most applicants. So unless you're already down the road towards one of these careers (intelligence wise, school wise, CV wise, networking prowess etc); it's very likely you'll end up in an "average" job.
Let's not kid ourselves thinking that anyone can get these jobs if they wanted to because that's false - these are exclusive, prestige driven jobs unattainable to the masses. Precisely why they are high paying in the first place - that and you sell your soul for cash for the most part.
I'd say for the average non-credential chasing joe the only real ways to make top 1% money is sales, having an innate talent, real estate, management or starting your own company.
Get plastic surgery to perfect your facial aesthetics, get super jacked, condition your hair with argan oil for the next 3 years, and become an instagram model that sells coffee facial scrubs and kombucha.
What are the highest paying jobs for recent graduates of top schools? (Originally Posted: 03/29/2017)
Any recent grads or students out there know what are the highest paying jobs offered to superstars at H/Y/P + Stanford, etc. It would be great if you could be more specific (eg. 'Investment Banking at BB' instead of 'Finance'). Ik a couple of wharton undergrads who said the highest paying jobs of recent grads were extremely rare gigs related to PE, HF, and Trading that paid a base of 150k+. I've heard that there are some engineering and tech roles that pay higher than finance but I don't have any specifics. I'm asking b/c I'm soon-to-be college student. Or, are today's top students increasingly pursuing entrepreneurship or taking jobs at startups that provide equity compensations (high risk, but high potential payoff)?
Higher ROI to go with a sex change. Women on IG make way more from sponsors.
Silicon Valley and Seattle are your friend. More specifically, Microsoft, Apple, Google etc.
I believe their compensation is on par, if not lower than IB.....
BusinessWeek article says accounting more lucrative than IB (Originally Posted: 10/16/2008)
This article seems pretty short sighted to me. So they are telling parents to tell their kids in HS/college to become accountants instead of thinking about Investment Banking, like IB is doomed eternally. What are your guys' thoughts?
I was surprised(shocked) though how much the petroleum engineer's gonna make right out of undergrad
Living Large: Where to Find High-Paying Jobs Posted by: Louis Lavelle on October 14
By Dan Macsai Credit crunch notwithstanding, graduates who pursue careers in petroleum engineering and accounting are netting sky-high starting salaries, according to a recent article in the Kansas City Star.
As stocks plummet, the latter field has become especially lucrative, said Steve Limberg, director of the master’s of accounting program at the University of Texas, Austin. “In good times, people want to know how to manage their prosperity,” he told the Star. “In bad, they want to know how to manage their cost-saving.”
So just how high are “sky-high” salaries? Off the bat, accountants typically earn at least $45,000; petroleum engineers rake in between $85,000 and $95,000.
But Cody Bass, a 22-year-old college senior at Missouri University of Science and Technology, trumps both. Once he factors in his signing bonus and relocation stipend, he’ll be netting roughly $145,000 for his first year of petroleum engineering – and he hasn’t even finished college yet. “I was shocked,” Bass said, before conceding that he “feels bad for everyone having such a hard time.”
Anybody else out there living large right out of school? Or more to the point: now that investment banking has pretty much gone the way of the dinosaurs, are there any jobs (outside the petroleum industry) where a new college grad can pull down six figures?
goddamn what is happening here... this is like the blind leading the blind.
im just a junior trying to get an SA gig this summer so im probably more optimistic than most, but i wouldnt say IB is extinct just because its going through a rough patch right now. there will always be a need for capital raising and M&A advisory work, therefore there will always be a need for investment banks.
even with the lowest expected bonuses since 2002-2003 (30k top bucket), ibankers are still pulling in over 100k right out of college. while bonuses are unlikely to reach their 90k top bucket they have been in the past, even putting it back at 60k in the next couple years makes it more lucrative than "petroleum engineering"
the title of this thread does not even make sense. you said BW says accounting is more lucrative than IB... then the article goes on to say accountants make "sky high salaries" of 45k out of college. that is not a great salary by any means; even a job at a boutique private wealth firm will pay more than that, and total compensation at a MM or BB investment bank will easily more than double that.
yeah i know, the article seems to imply that accounting is more lucrative than IB when it gives the examples of pet. engineering and accounting as "High-Paying Jobs" and then goes to say, "Or more to the point: now that investment banking has pretty much gone the way of the dinosaurs" but overall the article doesn't make much sense and seems to stop abrubtly
I wonder how much of a hit those petroleum engineers salaries are going to get with oil down nearly 50%
I wonder how much of a hit those petroleum engineers salaries are going to get with oil down nearly 50%
Petrolium & nat. gas engineering is a popular major at my school. I know quite a few grads who have gone to work at a slew of the major oil/energy/pipeline companies over the past few years and start with salaries in line with what the article stated. Oil may drop down to 50 but those companies will continue to make great earnings and the engineers joining will continue to get paid quite well as they did even before the run up to $148/bbl. Pretty simple, supply is low and demand is high for these majors.
the most stupid article I've ever read...
This isn't news. People working in the oil industry in the Middle East, Canada, Africa and now (apparently) America have been paid large salaries for decades now. People used to spend a decade in the Middle East for work in the oil industry and retire. My father told me when I was 10 or something in the mid-1990s to become a geologist or oil engineer and spend time in the mid-east and get paid extremely well to do so. This article is no more news than saying--shock!--teachers are underpaid.
I did my undergrad in engineering and all the guys who did petro/mineral engineering all got really high paying jobs, but it was because the class size was 6 people, compared to the computer and electrical eng. dept. with 250 people each class. It's really not a popular subject, but the industry is large, so the demand for these students is very high.
I think the other thing to consider is that IB is really not going to be a viable career option for a lot fo people now, or maybe for a long time, so accounting salaries can seem like a lot of money compared to nil because you didn't get that IB job. Even I think that my chances of a job would be slim in this market. I work for a boutique that I chose for personal reasons, which I chose over a BB that doesn't exist anymore, and the number of quality applicantions we have received this year is astonishing and we are only hiring 2-3 people, so we basically we get our pick of top quality candidates that wouldn't usually consider us.
So, business week writes about accounting being lucrative because it is. 45K is well above the average starting salary of a college grad. Is it a bit short sighted? Well, if IB's tighten up their hiring practices and don't go crazy again during boom times, then while IB will technically be more lucrative,but the jobs will be so far and few between that the option is not that available. I personally think that IB's will be a lot leaner going forward (sorry to be pessimistic to all you monkey hopefuls).
Probably should factor in the cost of living associated with NYC before you think 100k is a lot...
You don't have to be in NYC to do banking. $100k goes a long way some other cities.
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen so many highschool aged kids on this forum asking so much about investment banking and how to make six figures one year out of undergrad, it's getting slightly obnoxious and kind of sad tbh.
IB is not the only career in finance and it is not the only way to make good money in life.
Might as well tattoo it on my forehead at this point.
What's more lucrative? (Originally Posted: 11/19/2013)
Hopefully this isn't a dumb question.
Out of curiosity, would IB at the top levels (MD, group head etc) be more lucrative as a rockstar banker at lower BB/ some level of MM firm/elite botique or at a top BB? Theoretically, being a rockstar banker at a lower BB/some level of MM firm/elite boutique would add more to the bottom line of the bank (relatively, if not absolutely) than similar results at a top BB- but would that translate to higher compensation?
Wouldn't that depend on the bank and how it compensates? What are you trying to solve by asking this question?
I am trying to sate my curiosity.
Between T1 and T2 banks, there is very little correlation between prestige and compensation, from the junior level to the senior level (except for the top of the top execs).
Definitely. Why else would senior bankers move to lower BB banks other than getting paid more? It definitely happens often
What about building a career at a bank? Say VP level and above, does this still apply?
Basically my question in all of this was is there any financial benefit to being at a more prestigious BB vs a less prestigious BB vs an elite boutique or MM firm etc in the context of a long-term career in banking (ie, buyside exit ops not an issue).
"Why else would senior bankers move to lower BB banks other than getting paid more? It definitely happens often"
Quality of life? There have been times in my career where I'd happily take a pay cut to have more time not at work or less job-related stress.
I don't even have kids. I can imagine many bankers who want to spend more time with kids shifting from BB to mid-tier so that they can slow down the hamster wheel and spend more time with their kids.
It may be hard to believe for 20 year old kids gunning for IB roles, but - even for many people in IBs - it's not all about the money.
Big bucks may buy you lots of hookers and blow, but you will soon hit a point where a nice new car or a bigger TV set won't actually make you any happier, but having a wife you love, kids who actually want to spend time with you or time to read that book you've always wanted to read will.
That could definitely be true moving from a BB to a MM bank, but the number of hours and lifestyle can't be that much different from the large BB to a lower BB. The way I look at it though is that the lower BB wouldn't want to take a banker from a larger BB if all he is looking for is better lifestyle. The lower BB wants to acquire him for his rolodex, so that they can continue to be competitive. I should also include that location could be a deal breaker as well.
This is the answer for OPs question. Thanks for writing this! Especially: "Big bucks may buy you lots of hookers and blow, but you will soon hit a point where a nice new car or a bigger TV set won't actually make you any happier, but having a wife you love, kids who actually want to spend time with you or time to read that book you've always wanted to read will."
I know a VP that left MS M&A to join Moelis.
Packmate, PEinvestor2012 - it's all good gents!
I've got to spend some time with my wife right now (it's dinner time in my time zone), but will try to come back later this evening and write up some examples of motivations I've seen for IBankers trading places, particularly when they move down market in terms of IB prestige.
I spent far too much time typing up my examples. See this thread: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/why-do-ib-directors-change-shops
@peinvestor2012 get a life, does your life revolve around throwing MS at every post?
Compensation at the MD level has really nothing to do with the "prestige" of the firm. It's all about the dealflow you're bringing in. A MD who kills it in his sector at Citi is going to get paid exponentially more than a mediocre MD at Goldman.
But the biggest factor? Firm size/being public vs. private. Those Centerview/Perella/Qatalyst senior bankers are easily pulling 5-10x what an MD with similar deal-flow at a BB. There are just fewer mouths to feed, which means after they've paid all the analysts, associates, etc, the partners, as equity-holders, get to keep the rest.
I know a girl got an offer from AirB&B. I don't know how much, but enough for her to drop out of college to take the job.
Which career makes more money over the course of a lifetme? (Originally Posted: 04/28/2015)
Psychiatry or a career in Accounting/Finance (specifically Corporate Treasury)?
I understand this might be a very bias place to ask this question but I would like an honest answer.
From my limited knowledge: psychiatry will give you a higher starting income and a higher average income than you'll get in finance. Your income can range from 150k-250k. On the other hand, though, if you are an above average performer, finance has a virtually unlimited ceiling. If you can make it to VP, CFO or even to CEO in the right companies, your compensation can be in the millions and you will make far more than almost any medical professional. That's the beauty of finance- it rewards results. The medical field requires more education and has higher averages, but the top earners pale in comparison to the top earners in finance. So, preferences aside, if you are a curve-breaker, do finance. If you have always around average, you'll make more as a psychiatrist.
Thanks for the reply. I'm actually going into accounting and will be working in corporate finance, my girlfriend will be going into med school to be a psychiatrist. I was just kinda curious which one of us would earn more.
Based on your question, you sound like a college student, in which case you have no need to worry about this, cause you absolutely won't even be with your girlfriend 6 years down the line.
Tell that to the vast number of people who end up with their college sweethearts permanently...what a gross generalisation
Too much variation in both fields. She could be in psych at a nonprofit helping poor people and make shit or head up psych at a major urban research hospital and make a butt load. You could never progress past mid level treasury and make average money or be the corp treasurer at AT&T and make a ton and eventually make CFO.
Check out averages on glassdoor or salary.com.
Thank you everyone for all your help.
Doctor or finance? Such a rare question on WSO.
What's next? How to break in from a non-target or a networking guide?
How do I get a girlfriend/get laid? Should I get an Armani suit?
Also: Hank Paulson can eat a bag of dicks.
Psychiatry is one of the lowest paying functions in med school in my limited knowledge. If you go corp. finance to top MBA, then you might edge her out eventually (plus she won't be making money while you are). If you stay in treasury, what everyone said above will apply.
How lucrative is a career on Wall Street? (Originally Posted: 12/20/2013)
I'm increasingly becoming of the view that the consensus regarding Wall Street earnings is substantially over-stated. This goes for senior level bankers and PE guys, not really HF which is much more variable, disparate and dependent on a variety of factors.
It seems like consensus is that as a banking MD, you'll be pulling a mid-to-high single digit if not tens of millions and as a partner in PE you'll be pulling a multiple of that.
In realty, your average banking MD may be pulling like $1.0-2.0m per year. Top decile MDs on Wall Street, maybe low-to-mid single digit millions... i.e., $3-7m. In PE, I think the high end of banking becomes the median... so a partner may be pulling $3-5m... and the top decile guys may be making a multiple of that (money you make off co-investing is a different story).
People tend to take the sticker shock inducing figure and assume its the norm rather than the exception.
Is that a very good living, yes it is. But do you have a private jet and $50m apartment? Probably not. You won't be making much more than a very successful doctor.
The point of what I'm saying is... this career isn't really as lucrative as people will have you believe... unless your end goal is having $10-20m or so in assets by the time you're 50-60. But you're not exactly building multi-generational wealth.... I'm not suggesting thats the goal, but I am suggesting that creating multi-generational wealth (i.e., capable of being a substantial sum from you to your kids, from your kids to their kids) is the threshold for a substantial creation of wealth.
Well, if you worked two jobs at Mcdonalds for total for the same hours as IB, you would make more money.
You dumba$$
Even if you get paid $10 a hour per job and work 15 hours a day (IB hours) for 7 days a week, this is how much you'll make in a year: $109,200
Most NYC IB pays analysts an upwards of >115k-130k
It's not even funny; I was trying to be serious
I'd try waiting tables, I think you can get a bit more. Maybe $15 / hr?
It all comes down to equity. If your income is based on wages alone, no matter how high you climb you'll hit a ceiling (not to mention that you're taxed in the worst possible way). Equity is what builds generational wealth.
In banking there is definitely a ceiling. Working for someone else always will.
Private Equity, however, is a completely different story. Pointing to an average in PE is a mistake due to the wide ranges of income that these guys make. DBCooper had it right, equity is the difference. A key component of private equity comp is carry or carried interest. If a partner with carry makes good investments he can make a lot of money (tens of millions); however, if he makes bad investments, he can make very little money.
LIke everything else, it comes down to risk/reward. Bankers are not risking their own capital, so the ceiling is much lower. PE guys (and HF guys) are putting their money to work, which is much more risky but can be far more rewarding.
You'll still be working for someone else in private equity.
I'm with you on the upside potential in PE from carry and being a rockstar investor, but my point is that the top decile performers are not a proxy for how much money you can make in the field. And maybe the top guy at KKR makes $40m a year, but thats an aberration and not the norm. They're not really putting their money to work, they're putting other people's money to work.
I agree with the notion that the primary way to create real wealth is to act as a principal, and while I'd say the partner at New Mountain is more of a principal than the MD at GS... I just don't consider investing other people's money and making a "success fee" on it as a principal capacity, even if 0.3% of that money is your own. At the end of the day, like investment banking, private equity is a services business albeit one where incentives are more aligned to the success of the deals that you're doing.
You're right, but lament to anyone outside of Wall Street that you're going to face a "low" ceiling of 10-20mm and they will tell you to go eat a dick.
All good points and observations. One important distinction is the age at which you can begin to acquire some significant wealth. Top finance jobs provide you with a higher probability of making outsized gains in wealth earlier in your career than fields such as medicine and law. Having that money earlier obviously allows you to compound it longer (all else equal). Also, these jobs provide you with a skill set (in some cases) that is conducive to being a better investor than say your average lawyer and also provides you with access to investment opportunities that you may not have elsewhere.
.
This is exactly the realization that stopped me dead in my tracks from jumping into a MSF program last year and has caused me to seriously reconsider getting an MBA -> finace/consulting. The odds of hitting that BILLIONAIRE bracket, or even hundreds of millions, is so slim that you're probably better off starting your own business and trying that way. It's like playing the lottery but working extremely hard the whole time. The possible exception is trading, where you really can become a millionaire in a few years. The only reason I see to staying in finance long long term is to go into gov't, maybe the FED, and given I don't have the educational pedigree, I don't see that happening no matter how successful I become. Stupid American people want to be government by smart Harvard educated folks.
Personally, I'm highly inclined to go big4 and start my own thing in my free time. Even trading my own account I'm getting to the point where a few good trades would start to compete with my paycheck. If I had the time to actually sit and look at something without being constantly interrupted, I might be making much more.
@"UFOinsider"insider
Get a couple million capital, start HF, have 2 year track record, get investors, make millions, government sucks, economy crashes, make billions.
This is how it's done ^ :)
@"Marcus_Halberstram" I agree with all your points. My goal is to build up the war chest and then attempt to try to find real value creators to seed. In the absence of having diamond in the rough innovative ability / true genius / ability to create (Jobs / Tesla / Gates / Zuckerberg et al), I think the best thing you can do is to seek out that type of talent, nurture it, and capitalize it to succeed. Not on a principal basis with fee structures and exits in mind, but getting in on the ground floor and getting sizeable / founder-level equity. If you have the skillset to do it on your own and create, that's excellent, but if not the best you can do is try to help others launch ideas that will change the game.
Just going to throw it out there, but there are a lot of jobs that have the same take home pay on an adjusted cost of living basis in Texas/south as IB in NYC and California. And you work 40-60 hours a week.
$130k in NYC is close to $70k everywhere else. Lots of jobs you can work 40 hours a week and make $70k. And even if you promote and make $300k, not that hard to find jobs paying $150-$180k with a promotion or two.
Just my two cents for those people who aren't in the micro-fraction of people who went to Ivy league or Stanford and graduated top of class but want to live well.
But NYC is the financial capital of the world and its obvious that if you choose to live like shit, you can save a lot.
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