Race/Ethnicity in Business- Is being an African American a disadvantage?
Hey everyone! I'm a junior in high school who's considering banking as a future career (among many other fields, of course). I'm currently trying to get into the best school possible, so I've been working pretty hard lately (4.0 GPA, 2300 SAT).
Now, I am African American (born in Ethiopia), and I've heard that the business world isn't so friendly to blacks in general, even if one gets a degree from schools like Wharton at UPenn, Harvard, Columbia, Cornell, etc. Is this a legitimate concern that I need to consider in choosing what I would like to do for the future?
And I prefer any brutally honest answer and advice. Please don't try to sugarcoat anything :)
**** This is about my prospects AFTER graduation, not about getting into these top schools.
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Is this a joke? With affirmative action, it increases the chances of you getting into a top college significantly higher than just as qualified whites and asians
Exactly
Sorry for the ambiguity guys! This is a question about my prospects AFTER graduating from a target school (if I get in, of course).
Basically, is it hard to get a job in this field as a black man?
Are you personable? Do you think you would be able to sell and bring in money as a banker? That's what would matter long-term.
Lol at Communist, either you didn't bother to read the post and jumped to conclusions or your reading comprehension needs work. As for OP, you would do yourself a disservice to not pursue finance if thats whay u want b/c of possible discrimination. If your concerns are valid then work harder than those next to u in such a way they can't ignore or write you off. If it is an equal playing field then still work harder than those next to u.
If you're a black or Hispanic with high stats and you aren't a total joke in interviews, it will make things a lot easier by being a minority when talking about hiring in major corporations. To get to the highest echelons of the business (high finance), however, it requires selling yourself to investors, businesses, lenders, etc. If you face a higher bar it's when you reach that level and affirmative action becomes totally irrelevant. Investors won't invest with you just because you're black (frankly, many wouldn't invest with you because you ARE black), whereas Goldman Sachs might hire you just because you're a qualified URM. In sum, I'd say being a black person with great stats makes you a shoo-in for breaking into the business but your race would probably make it harder to reach the highest levels.
But don't let that discourage you--if you're white you need to be a superstar to even get an interview, so there are positives and negatives.
What a load of shit. I'll say upfront that I'm Asian (no URM opportunities) but to say that white candidates need to be superstars to land ib interviews is plain wrong. You sound like a frustrated kid who couldn't make it to IB and is now bashing AA rather than networking and trying to better your unremarkable self.
If you come from a non-target (like VT did) and are white you do have to be a superstar. Maybe you just can't see that through your privileged target/semi-target lens.
Personally I think that the AA benefit is vastly overstated when it comes to corporate America. As for needing to be a superstar to get an interview if you're white, that's a ridiculous assertion.
I'm sorry, but do you even work in the business? I've noticed that your opinions about almost everything are wrong and baseless.
In general, no one that matters cares what your race is, it's not going to be a problem.Yeah there are probably some racist people out there, but unlike what you've probably been led to believe, the world isn't out to make life hard for black people. Like others have said, being black will help you early on, with all of the diversity programs out there right now. Long-run, though, it shouldn't matter what race you are.
You'll be a shoe in for diversity programs. Whoever believes affirmative action doesn't really help much in the corporate world is an idiot. Go to any info session at a target school and you can count the black kids on one hand.
Nobody is going to give a shit what race you are at the analyst level. If anything, it's easier to break in as a URM because there are diversity programs that specifically target blacks / hispanics / etc.
African-American interning on wall street next summer. Feel free to PM me.
Since this thread is called "Race/Ethnicity in business" I feel like I can threadjack a bit. Why is it that African-American is the PC name for Americans whose ethnicity traces to Africa? You don't see me going around asking to be called a German-American. And actually, if you want to talk about marginalized...a case could easily be made for "white" people being the most ethnically diverse of the major race categories, yet they are all lumped under the umbrella of "white". Just my .02
Why do you think whites are marginalized vs their peers? (Serious question and want to understand your perspective)
Yea I'm sure my statement is baseless. It's more likely that all the white ppl on wall street are superstars, u know because they're white and its so difficult for white ppl in this AA world. Give me a fuckin break with that bullshit @Virginia Tech 4ever" .
It's more likely than not that you are a fucking intern with absolutely zero experience to justify your series of asinine comments on WSO.
I think this question is a lot more complicated than people would like to think. I am not black/hispanic but I have some knowledge of how diversity programs work so let me sum it up for you:
IF you attend an ivy/target school which feeds into diversity programs (all top unis have something like this) being black/hispanic (or even a woman) does give you an advantage when it comes to breaking in. That advantage is quantifiable too: a) You get an extra-round of recruiting where non URM's don't get to participate (almost guarantees you a superday, and the pool is generally weaker so with your stats you're probably a shoe in) 2. HR will try to push for you to get hired if they haven't satisfied their URM quota
If you go to a non-target where you don't have access to URM recruiting, I would actually say that being a URM is a disadvantage, mainly because people will assume that you didn't make the cut even with the diversity recruiting.
Also, I disagree with the people who say that being a URM will make it difficult for you to reach senior management level. Mainly because by the time my/your generation gets to the senior level, we will be in 2025 and given how progressive the world is today compared to just 10 years ago, I don't think it would be far fetched to think that racial discrimination is going to keep going down.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion is wrong. I know a ton of rich people and entrepreneurs, both domestic and international--the reality among the rich is the reality among everyone. People gravitate toward races/ethnicities/nationalities that they identify with. And for black people it's incredibly difficult to work in true high finance at a senior level because, for whatever reason, the entire world is incredibly racist against blacks, especially Asian and Middle Eastern businessmen. Nothing is going to change in 10 years that changes the reality of tribalism or that changes, say, Saudi businessmen's opinion of blacks.
So my contention remains--the highest echelons of finance are attained through developing relationships with the right people and selling yourself to investors and businessmen. If you're white you face the least resistance in most international settings, and if you're black you face the most resistance. It's just the reality on the ground. Will that change eventually? Yes, I believe it will eventually change, but not in 10 years--that's somewhat laughable.
Wintercoat being silly
Income inequality has been here since the end of slavery. It's actually moved in the wrong direction under Obama (liberal/black President). What makes you think it's going to change in the next 25 years?
If you can make a bank money, your race means jack shit. If you're an annoying feminist, that's another story.
As everyone above has said, it will make it easier to get a banking job in the first place. The issue is that people will (unfairly) assume that you're not as qualified as everyone that made it through the regular recruiting process and it's up to you to do good work and prove them wrong. In the end it's completely on your ability
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/04/10/a-private-equity-titan-with-a-na…
Okay since most of the replies so far are pretty useless for OP, I'll answer to the best of my very limited abilities.
Race and ethnicity does matter, and to a great degree at that. You're constantly going to find yourself wanting to avoid/ditch your ethnic roots and put on a white mask that's more compatible with your bank's or clients' cultures. Most of your coworkers and clients will always think of wat as some exotic food to try at a boutique Ethiopian place fancied by hipsters; it'll be hard for most of them to understand it's something you may have grown up eating and loving.
Given the responses above, you're also going to have to deal with idiots who will disregard your undergrad or SAT scores or other qualifications and say 'oh, he got in here cause of affirmative action'. It's subtle and something that pops up even in my mind from time to time, but it's something to keep in mind when you're choosing majors or activities in undergrad.
I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. Banks have a unique culture because of the business they are in, not because the culture is "white". There are many white people around the world who would be uncomfortable with a given bank's culture. There are many non-whites who support a bank's culture as well.
Second, there is nothing wrong with coworkers wanting to try or being unfamiliar with Ethiopian food. Simply because someone might grow up loving a certain food doesn't mean that it's somehow wrong for restaurants to serve it to people from different backgrounds.
I don't need any experience to know not every white person in IB is a "superstar". That was a stupid assertion and I cannot believe you continue to defend it. As for me being an intern, it is clearly stated that I am an intern on my profile, but again, I don't see how that holds any relevance to your idiotic statement about white ppl needing to be "superstars" to get interviews. It is simply wrong and it takes absolutely no scrutiny to see why that is wrong. Stop trying to make this personal dude, as a more elder member of this site (as far as experience) I expect better. If you can somehow justify your outrageous point of view without resorting to "do you work in business" or "you're just an intern" then come back and discuss. Otherwise you're coming off as a major tool @Virginia Tech 4ever"
.
You're going to face a glass ceiling in high finance. This is true for African-Americans and Asian-Americans and Indian-Americans, etc.
Look at the demographics of the wealthiest investors and money managers in the US. Old, white men with pedigrees. You're going to be able to excel extremely well at the beginning (thank you affirmative action) but once you get to 'selling' those services to these guys you're going to be a bit at a disadvantage since you're not part of the good ole boys club.
But by the time you're there (10-20 years) the demographics may have changed substantially, but people make it all the time. Truth is if you're not a rich white man you're going to have a bit of a glass ceiling, but you CAN do something about that.
Just saying what we all know is true.
Virginia Tech 4ever is right.
lmao since when did we boil it down to white people from non-targets, because that is not at all what was originally posted, I responded to the part quoted by @roytheboytoy". There is absolutely no distinction between targets/ non-targets in that quote. Also, it is a grind coming from a non-target regardless of race.
1) Somewhat successful attempt at trolling
2) Your experiences impact your perspective. VT came from a non-target which probably explains why his view is that you have to be a superstar if you are white. I do agree with him 100% though.
Anyway, didn't mean to derail the thread. Peace.
It's definitely possible to be successful at banks if you're black:
CEO of Credit Suisse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidjane_Thiam
Former CEO of Merrill Lynch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_O%27Neal
Trolling? I'm beginning to think half this site consists of tards.
a.) I come from a non target b.) He didn't say anything about white ppl from targets vs non-targets, he made a ridiculous all-encompassong statement about white ppl needing to be "superstars"
I don't see how I'm the one trolling when u have ppl like UTDFinanceGuy alrdy attributing this kids future possible sucess to AA, its shameful and part of the problem. Defending VT's stance on racism is one thing, notice I haven't commented on that as I believe OP should pursue his goals regardless. Coming to defend the "superstar" statement is asinine, the statement is part of this absurd narrative that it's hard out there for white ppl now (relative to other races), which is just bs. I won't comment further on the subject as I've said all I'll say on it.
I get the feeling that some people here are projecting. I know that Virginia tech has written many times that HE feels much more comfortable with other white people and doesn't really do much with minorities. I believe he said he does something in real estate and I believe UTD sells software. So, criticizing someone for being an intern for not knowing the financial industry when neither even works in the financial industry strikes me as a little strange, to put it mildly.
Real estate does seem draw the attention of a lot of white guys. Seems like much more of an old boys club than other aspects of finance.
Attributing his success to AA? Bull-shit I never said that.
I'm saying will he have an easier time with OCR and even the bigger banks due to AA, sure. He still has to work his ass off to get there. I'm not saying VT is right about having to be a super-star (albeit you do if you're coming from a non-target and when you compare two non-targets, one who has a favorable status from AA and one who doesn't, its obviously an advantage).
And @DickFuld, I'm not insinuating that I know the in's and out's of the finance industry. Just take a look at the MD level and see if its represents the demographics of the United States perfectly. It doesn't. When I was having sit downs with some MD's it was hard pressed to find many that didn't come from a prestigious background and were not Caucasian males. Even in sales, you can see it, my buddy who has a very 'African-American' name has a hard time even getting through the door to mid-market CFO's whereas when he has a co-worker call in its much easier.
Racism and prejudice is not okay, but lets not pretend it doesn't exist in professional careers in America, not just finance, but law, sales, etc. Saying there is a glass ceiling isn't condoning it.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/300528/us-millionaires-race-ethnicit… - over 76% of millionaires are Caucasian, and less than 8% are African American. Whereas African Americans make up over 12% of population. Is it a HUGE gap, no, but it does exist and doesn't represent the actual make-up of America. People like associating with people similar to them, that includes background, education, geography but also includes race.
Caucasians also account for 72% of the population...so 76% of millionaires being white should not come as a surprise as there seems to be a direct correlation with the demographics within the country. African Americans making up 8% of millionaires and 12% of the total population is not surprising whatsoever, given the all the talk in this topic of blacks not being given a "fair shake" or "having a hard time getting business"...I'm actually somewhat impressed by the statistic. What is disappointing to me is the fact that your trying to use these statistics to prove your premise but choose to omit certain data points to avoid invalidation. Also your last statement is an obvious generalization.
While this is all hilarious to read if thats the real Dick Fuld i'll eat a shoe
Also to get to what everyone here is arguing about, you have to be a superstar regardless of your race to get into IB that recruits from hoity toity schools from a non-target school
Thanks for the awesome discussion everyone! There are a lot of things to take into consideration here, but the general consensus I'm seeing is that it's not too hard to break into the business, but making it into higher levels of banking can be a challenge for blacks because of the racist sentiments of old, white bankers. This will hopefully be mitigated in the future, but for now, it's something I really gotta consider.
Anyways, I have other careers I seem to lean more toward (engineering), but thanks again for the advice y'all have given me! Cheers!
You may have found the answer you're looking for already, but I'm going to break it down in the simplest way I know. AA may still exist, but the leg up you receive isn't as much as it once was. Racists and bigots may be a much rarer breed these days, but they still exist. I'm sorry, but that's just one unique hurdle you will have to learn to overcome in your own way. In finance, you have the added benefit that money tends to make people color blind. Combined with the fact that we live in an extremely progressive and socially aware society means that you probably have a better chance at a fair shot than any of those before you. You seem like a bright kid and I would urge you to focus on figuring out what you really want out of life versus attaining a career track. Once you know what it is and you attack it with vigor, no one will be able to stop your success because of your race, even if they do manage to hinder it in some fashion.
Thanks man! Your response really means a lot to me!
This has to be the dumbest question I've seen on this board
Why is that?
DickFuld let's just wait for traderdaily to mention financial advisory at fidelity to OP.
Affirmative action drastically lowers the bars for blacks; this is true for admission to colleges, grad schools, and job offers. So it's definitely easier to get your foot in the door. But once you're there, you will be judged by your performance. Finance in general has become fairly meritocratic, so if you're not adding value (regardless of your race) you will get fired. VATech's argument is that once you are in the upper ranks and have to work on getting deals, being black will be a hindrance. Perhaps. But I think by and large, people want to make money and will work with those who can get it done. If that person is black, no problem. The issue here is that there are so few blacks in finance in general (especially at the senior levels) that it's hard to conclude authoritatively one way or the other.
VATech has never worked in finance, so he should let others take the lead on this rather than pontificating. I agree in general with his political views, but there are times when he comes across like an uneducated southern redneck (which he is clearly not). So just chill, bro.
This thread is full of retards. Excel at what you do; especially people. If you can excel at people, you'll do well.
The world is globally connected.
As you can see very difficult to answer because everyone has their own perspective based on their very narrow experience. To specifically answer your question (corporate finance perspective), assuming you graduate an M7 and are highly competitive I would say you are at a marginal advantage getting a job. I would further say that you are at a marginal advantage to get promoted if you remain very competitive with your peers and you are reasonably social and network. Getting to the top ranks involves a lot of hard work, skill, and luck this is true no matter what race/gender...etc you are. Everyone has a specific example of something that happened to someone this "one time" at bank x and group y. But what is it like on average?
I guess if you look at it from an averages perspective it may look better for you (maybe worse for equality), what is the percentage of URMS that attend a top school...what percentage of them go into banking...and what percent actually stay in banking. Without knowing and only guessing I would say the high ranks don't have more diversity because this final number of URMS is quite low.
I do agree that prospects will keep improving as time goes on. I would say, if you really want this, work hard at both IQ and EQ and let the chips fall. Being a pessimist could be your greatest weakness.
In the end it's the asians that get shafted the most.
Listen I'm black Hispanic and race is only a problem if you let be. You cant control someone perception of you. You can only excel and defy stereotypes. In any case if you really want to be honest most people have some sort of bias against someone else whether is short, fat ,ugly hell even lefties. So take the focus from the external and how unfair everything is which you cant control to within yourself and what you can do become better. Its much healthier imo to think this way instead of getting into debates of who has it the worse.
All the angry comments are from analysts pissed because they are working through New Years XD
For OP, each person goes through a unique experience (recruiting, bank, group, etc). You will be tested the same way anyone else will be but key difference is you need to work just a little bit harder to earn respect. Race plays a major role in judgments whether someone admits it or not. Keep your head down and work hard! People seem to forget why AA needed to exist!
Hard work can overcome all
The brutal honest answer is that racism will ALWAYS exist. Saying it will completely evaporate is like saying there will be a society one day without theft or murder. Yes, people will judge you based on color. Yes, you will experience this in life no matter what you try to accomplish. The fact that you made this thread confirms you already know this.
The important thing to understand is that you determine how hard you work and how much you're going to achieve. If people can overcome various adversities (racism, sexism, etc.) to attain great success, you can too. This is just another wrinkle in life.
Ethnicity and gender on application? (Originally Posted: 02/09/2013)
So with every application I fill out I notice the option to fill in your ethnicity and gender. Being the typical white male I'm not earning any bonus points if the company wants to be an "Equal Opportunity Employer." Since it's not required, do you guys fill out that information or just leave it blank?
Leave it blank/fill it out... doesn't matter to you. Thats for reporting purposes only, companies with diversity that seek out govt contracts are looked upon more favorably...as well as by shareholders. That wont get your app picked up any faster or give you bonus points if you were a minority. Banks have programs designed for that.
If youre applying to banks via websites id say thats a bigger disadvantage then being a "white male" lol
I also always leave it blank being a white male....... however my great-great grandfather was a cherokee indian, so maybe I should just start putting native american on them ;)
Those things are just for HR use, they use them for internal statistics, evaluate the effectiveness of different initiatives etc.. When we get the applications for screening we don't get that information, so it is impossible that it will hurt you. It doesn't matter if you fill it out or you don't.
The Race Card; let's have a candid conversation about this issue (Originally Posted: 05/25/2008)
Alright, do you guys think that race is still a factor especially when it comes to the final decision? I know there are a lot of firms that brag about diversity, but I don't believe this is the case. Did anyone feel that you were not offered because of your race or color? I hope that decisions are not always determined by the looks of the candidates, and they should be determined by the candidates' merits.
Nas is one of my favourite rappers
lol...........some of my friends get the feeling Morgan Stanley hates all Asian men....that wat u talking about?
What's Morgan Stanley got with Asian men? I thought they didn't like Jews?
If Morgan Stanley had a problem with jews I don't think they'd be sponsoring the CFR.
and this just proves most of this is speculation...
... if you're concerned about not getting hired due to race, i would look into organizations that specifically help minorities.. there are also groups within banks that look to recruit/help minorities, and those can be helpful too
I think its very hard to take a look at the type of individuals at the bank and use that as determination for racial discrimination. In many cases, there are too many factors prior to the job application that have already created a racial difference amongst candidates. This is exactly the reason for affirmative action programs at top schools..... because there is a clear divide amongst the type of candidates that come from different nationalities. Often times, discrimination is the hardest to prove given that if a firm receives 100 applications and 90 of them happen to be from white candidates..... and from this they take 10 individuals..... the likelihood of any of them being a minority is low...
Many banks, however, in order to help their public image and also to help against any possible litigation they may get down the line do actively seek to increase minority hirings, but this is only on a limited scale. You should look into the SEO which is an organization centered around helping minorities break into different industries--one being investment banking. They do have minimum requirements you must meet, otherwise this is a great way to help yourself out.
it'd be very hard to "feel" if you were not being hired because of your race or color. You'd have to know a few things that you simply can't, namely:
1) you have qualifications and competencies that would be sufficient in a person of another color 2) you were able to communicate 1 to your interviewer 3) you did better than the competition during your interview
honestly, i believe that banks will take whoever is the best candidate, especially at the analyst level. you are essentially slaves regardless of your race for the first 2 years. it can be argued that it is simply a case of spatial mismatch (urban econ).
aside from the mismatch, minorities are at a disadvantage from the get go because they will have the most difficulty identifying with the interviewers and this can be perceived as not doing as well as the other candidates, even if they answer the technicals equally well. look at the composition of the target schools, it also gives a good idea of who a minority is competing against.
consider, as an isolated example, morehouse college, an all black boys college (with the exception of a few random white guys) that places decently on wall street an in financial services in atlanta. if you distinguish yourself from your fellow students, there is no doubt that you will land the job in i-banking you want. i realize it is tough to test the hypothesis of whether there is a race card or not, but the morehouse example is one where the race card doesn't apply and you are purely chosen on merit. clearly the banks think that the black students have what it takes otherwise they wouldn't recruit there. also, getting into morehouse did not require playing the minority card whereas in some ivys it is definitely used for acceptance.
this can become a really interesting discussion. i am curious to hear what other people think. i do believe in the best candidate for the job, but i'm not sure that they are always being selected.
Many moon ago, banking was essentially the preserve of the elite. The issues were not really the colour card but rather the matter of privilege.
Here is the argument, banks deal with institutions or wealthy individuals, money is made mostly from fee where most banks have a similar fee structure and hence the reason someone (institution) will choose JPMorgan over its rival stem more down contacts, networking etc
A scenario where Company A want to choose a bank to advice on M&A activities, the chose between Bank A and Bank B with similar fee structure may come down to the CEO of Company A being high school mate with Bank B's MD.
So, coming from less than privilege backgrounds makes it difficult to do business at such level (e.g. "I'll call Uncle Z to get in touch with Senator D")
I think the good news is that there is change. Companies and banks are now global making the very essence of recruiting a sales team from a diverse back ground a "business decision". Anyone who has done business in Japan will understand.
You can penetrate certain systems by sending "one of theirs"
In 100 years, you may see aliens in S&T, someone to deal with alien culture (and their weirdness!).
Until then, the bias will be towards employing Earthlings
Sure there might be a random minority of blacks in every i-bank, but the point is, Corporate America is predominantly white. Like it or not (i do).
There are smaller banks and funds where number of women is a major question of female recruits. But that is to be expected as nobody wants to get halfway up a ladder and discover they have to jump off to have kids.
Never seen race as factor, expect when someone is bitter and used diversity hire as an insult. And honestly, this industry has more relationship hires than diversity hires anyway. It might matter in MD level promotions, but there are so many factors at play there and greed is powerful enough that the ones who will make money usually are the one that make it and are able to retain it.
many organisations will bend over backwards to hire/promote those seen as unrepresented in the business world. Finding decent enough candidates to put to senior levels has proven problematic for some, and runs a risk of promoting incompetent individuals to places they aren't capable of holding (hello JPM Head of Risk).
I hope the people support hiring or promotion based on "racial diversity" get operated by a surgeon who got his medical license based on a similar line of reasoning, and also got in Med school because of AA.
How much does your ethnicity/sex really affect admissions? (Originally Posted: 03/30/2013)
I've read multiple times about how asian engineers, indian CS guys and white wall street guys have a much harder time getting into top programs (HSW).
Is a physically diverse class (based on gender or skin color) really that important to business schools, or is it exaggerated in these (and other) forums?
Which groups have it the worst? And really how bad is it?
It's important to note that a wall street guy, white or otherwise, is more qualified and has a better chance at HSW than an engineer or CS person, regardless of race.
It's exaggerated by the dinged, and underplayed by the schools' PR. In reality, if your demographic is underrepresented but unqualified, you won't get in, but if you're truly qualified, it helps. And if you're overrepresented, of course you can get in (otherwise you wouldn't be overrepresented), but the admissions committee has more to choose from, so you need an additional element of differentiation.
This.
Thanks for bringing this issue up. We've never talked about this topic ever
/sarcasm
IT guys from India have it the worst. Not just HSW, but any top 15 program.
I am assuming the above posters are all URM lol
If being URM did not matter, schools would not tout their percentages the way they do. No one is talking about under-qualified candidates. I am sure the OP was referring to URM who are qualified, but not as qualified as whites or Asians are. In that case, I am sure URM makes a big difference.
Would someone (me) who is originally from India, but did their undergrad in the US (majoring in Computer Science/Engineering and Business) and then continued on to do strategy consulting in the US still be considered as someone from the "IT guys from India" pool?
I would guess yes. I did my undergrad in India, but grad school in US. Worked for big companies think Microsoft/Google/Oracle/Cisco/Facebook. Had excellent GPA and startup experience and several awards in my industry. Still couldn't get into any of top 15. Although I had a sub par GMAT.
Indian male CS guys have it the worst. More so than Asian males or White guys in Wall St. I've seen very smart and sociable folks with near perfect stats couldn't secure a spot in M7.
It's certainly a plus, it means that if you're a little low on the GMAT or your GPA is off by .3 or work experience is "meh" you still may get in despite having a failing. You still need to be reasonably well qualified to have a shot.
It's certainly a factor...though some of the folks here seem to be exaggerating how much it's underestimated (I think that's possible, lol).
Just look at the score ranges for the schools. Most often you can find an 80% range and see that there are some people that fall outside of that low side. My guess, in most cases those people will either be URM or legacies.
I mean, somebody is getting into HBS with a high 500 or very low 600. What are the chances that the person is the average white male Wall Street banker?
Regards
theyre going to be getting in because of them doing something crazy or impressive that captivates the reader. the reason it is tough for white/male asian finance guys is that so many of them have the same backgrounds -- probably went to a private high school, parents have some connects, they went to ivy or similar top 15/20 school then IBD then PE for a couple years.. the business schools are there to make a varied class of various industries and experiences, so when you have 1000 'IBD guys' vying for maybe 20 spots in a class, it becomes much more of a knife fight for them vs the maybe 30-40 URMs who write essays about coming up through socioeconomic toughness and overcoming them and doing lots of social community give back experience , worked in F500 and want to do non profits
if youre one of those readers at a business school and 1/4 applications are from a wall street guy from that profile, it ALL starts to mesh together and you probably glaze over and tune out. when you see a different background, you perk up
There are a lot of URMs who never write a single word in their essays about coming up through socioeconomic toughness and overcoming them and doing lots of social community give back experience, worked in F500 and want to do non profits. This stereotype of URMs to justify why they're in top schools is just as misleading as the idea that URMs are qualified but just not as qualified as their white and Asian counterparts. I'm not saying some people that are admitted don't make me raise an eyebrow. However, those people come from all backgrounds and ethnicities. The same goes for women applicants. This conversation has been done to death on too many message boards.
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