IB Recruiting in Europe

A poster in another thread alluded to the fact that OCR (on campus recruiting) is virtually non-existent in europe.
Apparently, what students do over there is apply online on the bank's campus recruiting web-page, take an assessment test, and then have the interview.

I was wondering if any of the europeans on here could elaborate on this. Specifically, does this apply to european MBA programs as well? (I was under the impression they had OCR)
Also, do you think that the european recruiting process is easier/more convenient or harder/less convenient than the american process?

 

I can confirm that. A lot of recruiting is done through the banks' online applications. It's very different from the US from what I know. Still, if you have connections or attend IB info sessions at university in Europe, it is common to do some interviewing later on. I think it also applies to MBA applications.

 
Best Response
  • Compared to the American process, getting first rounds is harder for target students and easier for non-targets
  • UK interviews tend to be less technical and more fit based than their American counterparts
  • Unlike in the US, studying Accounting/Finance at the undergrad level seems to put one at a disadvantage rather than an advantage compared to other majors like Economics, Engineering etc
  • The online assessment tests are used to weed out about 75% of applicants though some firms choose not to use online tests and have their own paper based tests which people take after getting invites to first round interviews (e.g. GS, MS). Some firms use both (e.g. Citi, BOAML, JPM).
  • University grades are less important. Although good grades do help, it's possible to get first rounds even with bad grades. With bad A level grades however (taken prior to university), it's very very difficult to get an interview.
  • Networking is a lot less important when it comes to getting first round interviews. Doing well on the online tests and having a strong CV and cover letter will be good enough to get a first round from at least a couple of firms, even for non-targets.
  • First rounds are either over the phone or at the firm's London office. Some banks do hold on campus first rounds at Oxford and Cambridge though.
  • Reneging on summer and full time offers is a lot more common here as there's no downside of getting banned from OCR. Infact, some banks start their SA interviews later in the season than others, meaning those who receive offers from them are likely to have signed elsewhere before (e.g. Goldman doesn't start first rounds till January and final rounds in February, whereas UBS starts in September, and Barcap/JPM/MS/DB start around October/November). The top boutiques like Lazard/Greenhill/BX don't start interviews till Jan/Feb also.

While all the above is for undergrad, I'd guess it would probably be the same for MBA level as one can also apply for summer associate positions through the various banks' online portals.

 

So what you have to do is create a polished resume and cover letter, apply on-line, and pray?

Is there a much higher success rate for on-line applications in Europe than there is here? B/c if it is anything like it is here, most people will never hear back from recruiters after filling in an on-line application.

All in all, that sounds a bit scary- am I making it seem harder than it really is?

Also, are there certain "target" schools whose students get more attention when they apply online? (I'm thinking Oxbridge, LSE, HEC, Bocconi)- any others?

 

Frankly, I think it's a bit more meritocratic than the networking and connections-focused US process. Most (if not all applicants) get a chance to do online aptitude tests as a precursor to a first round interview and then an assessment centre. Do well on your maths and verbal tests, have a solid CV and you should be fine.

 
boshyj:
Frankly, I think it's a bit more meritocratic than the networking and connections-focused US process. Most (if not all applicants) get a chance to do online aptitude tests as a precursor to a first round interview and then an assessment centre. Do well on your maths and verbal tests, have a solid CV and you should be fine.
Based on what I've read about the US process on WSO, I think it's a LOT more meritocratic over here. The US system sounds horrible.
 

Thank f4tality And congrats! Actually I think that the "dress" thing is pretty important. Don't get me wrong, you won't get an offer for rocking isaia suit, but please dress appropriately. Since you are in Europe, could you give some info about group discussion stage in AC.

- MVP
 

What are the 15-20 brainteasers that always come up, out of curiosity? Can they be found in Vault or somewhere else?

It seems Europe IB interviews emphasize brainteasers more than in the US.

 
Affirmative_Action_Walrus:
what sort of math/verbal are we talking about? comparable to gmat questions?
Most of the banks use SHL and PSL tests

Example of SHL numerical test questions: http://img82.imageshack.us/i/exchangeratesus2.png/

Example of PSL numerical test questions: http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5244/picture10ck7.png http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9316/picture18azj3.png

You normally get one chart/graph/other diagram, and 2 or 3 questions based on it, then another one etc.

In the verbal reasoning tests, you are normally given a short passage and asked 3 or 4 questions related to it which you have to answer "True", "False", or "Cannot Say", except your answers have to be based solely on what you read in that passage and not on any outside knowledge you have i.e. a question may be true, but if not made clear by the passage, then you would answer otherwise.

Example of verbal reasoning questions: http://www.salesassessment.com/images/800/verbal-reasoning-screen.jpg

Numerical aptitude test is normally 20 questions in 20-25 minutes, while the verbal reasoning tests are normally 30 questions in 15 minutes.

Some banks require a certain pass mark before the application may be looked at, while others require scores to be in certain percentiles of the whole pool of applicants before the application gets looked at.

 
Brown_Bateman:
Some banks require a certain pass mark before the application may be looked at, while others require scores to be in certain percentiles of the whole pool of applicants before the application gets looked at.

in what percentile would you say one usually needs to place in order to be considered?

 
Affirmative_Action_Walrus:
what sort of math/verbal are we talking about? comparable to gmat questions?

The maths is easier than the GMAT, both in breadth of knowledge required and in the fact that you can use a calculator. The questions are heavy on interpreting tables, graphs and other data. The verbal stuff is quite similar to GMAT and SAT questions.

 
paperlec:
Thanks for your input, guys. That was really helpful. Can someone further elaborate on the European(including London) fall internships for undergraduates? I heard that it's more common there.
Not that common in London but more common in the rest of Europe. Main internships offered in London are summer internships, spring insight programs (for those eligible for the next year's summer program), and long-term/off-cycle internships for students studying courses which require a "one year in industry" mandatory placement.
paperlec:
Also, will students studying in the US have equal opportunity in the application process comparing to their UK counterparts?
I doubt that, unless they were doing an exchange program in the UK/Europe.
 

MBA is not as useful here but they have formal recruiting for post MBA - I don't know the process, but it is usually for MBA's with experience. they recruit at INSEAD, LBS and IESE i think.

 

LBS is the clear front runner when it comes London Recruiting. They are in London which makes it easy to build a network and they place a lot of people.

IESE is rising quickly and also places a lot of people.

INSEAD does well pretty too, but since the program is only one year, be SURE to take the January Program start date in order to line up your timing for the summer internship.

If you were a European, then I think going to HBS, Wharton, etc. would be your best bet because the London offices definitely recruit in the US, but they are mostly looking for Europeans or the few Americans with language skills and/or European connections.

There are not many (admittedly a handful, but NOT MANY) Americans from American MBA programs who get recruited directly for London. The reason is that you have to convince the bank that you are really interested in Europe, that you really will be able to adapt to living in a foreign country, and that you really understand culturally and business-wise how things work.

Without a strong foundation of all that crap, you can easily come across as some kid with a whimsical idea like "Hey, London seems cool." The Euro-MBA indicates that you are serious about being in Europe, that you have a Euro-network, etc. etc.

Again, it's not impossible to be American and get recruited from a US MBA into London, but I'd say your odds a much better going to one of those Euro-MBAs (unless you have already lived/worked in Europe etc.)

Finally, yes...you need to do your Summer Internship in London. Then you will be hired in London full-time. If you do the Summer in New York, there's no guarantee of getting switched to London especially because they have to sponsor you for a Work Permit.

I am American, went to a Euro-MBA, interned in London, stayed with that bank full-time.

 

Much more difficult than US, quite honestly.

All EU citizens are eligible to work in these countries. European unis are usually three years, most students do MSc (in Finanial Economics)upon graduation from undergrad. Most of the banks are headquarted in London. You will be competing with the best of the best-Oxbridge, LSE, UCL,SSE..to name just a few.

The interview process is very differnt, much more intense.

But hey...if you got it, go for it. See article posted under newswire about UBS expanding in Germany.

Most Europeans are bi-lingual if not multi-lingual. This is ust a given.

In addition, to be honest- a bit of anti-american sentiment over here, and growing.

 
john099:

Most Europeans are bi-lingual if not multi-lingual. This is ust a given.

In addition, to be honest- a bit of anti-american sentiment over here, and growing.

Hi! Here is the view from a Spaniard: The first sentence is true, most of us (europeans) are bilingual or multilingual (except in UK and Spain). But this is not a condition to work here, speaking English is enough. In my former office (equity research in the leading Portuguese bank), there were three Americans who did not speak Spanish and had been living in the country for more than 5 years (and were even married with locals and had children speaking Spanish!!)

I do not agree at all with the second sentence, at least I have never seen any antiamerican sentiment. We may not agree with your Government's military policies, but this do not involve any sentiment against American people. I think the general feeling is that US ibanking is much better, it is just that we (europeans) are not able to work there due to your Visa requirements (at least that was my case).

 

Kinda burst his bubble there, eh John? Sure, competition is hot for a position like this, but there has got to be some chance/opportunity for entering that job market...

 
donisanp:
Kinda burst his bubble there, eh John? Sure, competition is hot for a position like this, but there has got to be some chance/opportunity for entering that job market...

Yea...guess it may have been a little harsh.

Of course, there is a chance. But wanted to let Budlight know that it isn't easier and what s/he will be up against.

Austria, I should add is not a major market. aha.

And the skiing is kaput this year. No snow in the Alps or Nordic countries. Warmest December on record.......

 

Sounds like you're mostly talking about England/London? I don't really want to go there at all, I'd rather go to a German-speaking country and be up in the mountains eating chocolate and making coo-coo clocks.

What about Frankfurt? I've heard someone saying that in offices in Frankfurt... they use English?

 

you will pay so much in taxes. If you are really wanting to live in Europe, it's best to go over there and just take a normal job and travel...get the social benefits the rest of them do.

and you know why there is so much anti-american sentiment? b/c we (americans) keep getting richer and richer and the Europeans get poorer and poorer...stastically it's true. European countries are even having a tough time getting women to have children and with a low birthrate they will not be able to pay the government pensions, etc. Unless there are economic reforms in Europe (which may happen), it's best to work in a high growth region like Asia.

 
nyc9982:

and you know why there is so much anti-american sentiment? b/c we (americans) keep getting richer and richer and the Europeans get poorer and poorer...stastically it's true.

No, we (americans) are not the wealthiest nation and haven't been for over a decade. Norway is number one----US ranks number 8. Check out your facts--just google it.

...Norge ER "first place" for mer den fire ar.

 
nyc9982:
you will pay so much in taxes. If you are really wanting to live in Europe, it's best to go over there and just take a normal job and travel...get the social benefits the rest of them do.

and you know why there is so much anti-american sentiment? b/c we (americans) keep getting richer and richer and the Europeans get poorer and poorer...stastically it's true. European countries are even having a tough time getting women to have children and with a low birthrate they will not be able to pay the government pensions, etc. Unless there are economic reforms in Europe (which may happen), it's best to work in a high growth region like Asia.

The reason this sentiment exists is because of your foreign policy, USA is not exactly well-liked globally. Also, what your saying is not true. Europe is getting richer while the US is getting poorer with their war on the middle east and huge deficit. USA is losing it. You can even see this with the huge CAN/USA dollar appreciation and interest rates.

 
ValueAdd:
Yeah, that American richness is especially evident in the ever-powerful US Dollar....wait, it isn't 1992.

US dollar is worth like 4-cents since we went off the gold standard.

 
BudLight:
ValueAdd:
Yeah, that American richness is especially evident in the ever-powerful US Dollar....wait, it isn't 1992.

US dollar is worth like 4-cents since we went off the gold standard.

Yada Yada.....lucky the administration supports a strong dollar stance!!!

Come on over ......but you'll have to give up that bud light and drink some real german beer....

 

You'd need to be completely bilingual in German and English. Most German speakers are totally bilingual as they start learning English at a young age in school. If you're competing with them I think it would be a lot harder for you, actually.

I know UBS is based in Zurich, which is German speaking, and Barcap has an office in Frankfurt that works a lot with the London office.

 

does have a slightly higher average income per person that is around 44,000. The average american income is slightly below that. HOWEVER - this is very misleading since almost all Norweigans make rougly the same amount of money. If you are a doctor you will make the same salary as a waiter. IN the US, the average income for a college graduate this year was 50,000 dollars which shows how misleading the 40k number is. In Norway, you have absolutely no freedom to build personal wealth. Sure, the government is rich but what is that going to do for you?

 
nyc9982:
does have a slightly higher average income per person that is around 44,000. The average american income is slightly below that. HOWEVER - this is very misleading since almost all Norweigans make rougly the same amount of money. If you are a doctor you will make the same salary as a waiter. IN the US, the average income for a college graduate this year was 50,000 dollars which shows how misleading the 40k number is. In Norway, you have absolutely no freedom to build personal wealth. Sure, the government is rich but what is that going to do for you?

Sorry for taking this thread up again, but I have too.

This is the most stupid bullshit I've ever read. Please don't say anything about Norway unless you know what you are talking about. Which you are clearly not. As a waiter in Norway, you will earn probably 30-50k dollars. However, as a doctor, you will earn at least 150-200k dollars, maximum can be up to 1 million dollars. When you are saying things like that, people will believe you, because they have no clue about the topic. But you are just misleading them.

I have to agree with you on the personal wealth thing, though. But please don't spread bullshit!

 

does have a slightly higher average income per person that is around 44,000. The average american income is slightly below that. HOWEVER - this is very misleading since almost all Norweigans make rougly the same amount of money. If you are a doctor you will make the same salary as a waiter. IN the US, the average income for a college graduate this year was 50,000 dollars which shows how misleading the 40k number is. In Norway, you have absolutely no freedom to build personal wealth. Sure, the government is rich but what is that going to do for you?

 
advdvnvp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per…

Rank Country GDP per capita 1 Luxembourg 80,288 2 Norway 64,193 3 Iceland 52,764 4 Switzerland 50,532 5 Ireland 48,604 6 Denmark 47,984 7 Qatar 43,110 8 United States 42,000 9 Sweden 39,694 10 Netherlands 38,618

Yes.....this is correct for GDP. At least ,it was pretty accurate before the dollar slide.

NOW..USA is actually LOWER in GDP because of exchange rate.

 

the latest figures are out on Bloomberg and those are wrong.

plus, you have to take into account that the average norweigan pays 15% higher taxes off of their salary....so factor that in as well. If youa re making 64K in norway, you will be in the 45% tax bracket if you can believe that!

 
nyc9982:
the latest figures are out on Bloomberg and those are wrong.

plus, you have to take into account that the average norweigan pays 15% higher taxes off of their salary....so factor that in as well. If youa re making 64K in norway, you will be in the 45% tax bracket if you can believe that!

This is simply not true. The highest tax bracket is 36%. There is a VAT of 20-24%.

The comment of doc/waiters making same salary is bull.

Don't want to make this a political arguement. You need to stop being so ethnocentric. There is a much bigger world out there then just the USA.

 

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I studied abroad in Norway at NTNU. All I know from my Norweigan friends is that they have said over and over again how they will make the same salary no matter what. Also, even if there is a discrepancy about salary, the tax laws will take care of it. One of the few ways to have more money than anyone else is to be a doctor and work extra hours/patients or keep some of your money abroad. I actually know a lot about Norway and the culture since I lived there for a short time and have kept in touch with the friends I met there.

I'm sorry I mistated "tax bracket". THe tax information I got is published on bloomberg yearly and lists countries on the average taxes a person will pay out of their salary or average income. It said that a person in Norway making around 44k would pay 45% of their income out in taxes. This includes ALL taxes - property, sales tax, etc. For an American, the total amount was 25%.

I guess my main point out of all of this is that you have a high education or work very hard, it will not get you ahead in norway. I agree you will have a nice life and you will never have to worry. But you will also never have the opportunity to get ahead.

 
nyc9982:
I studied abroad in Norway at NTNU. All I know from my Norweigan friends is that they have said over and over again how they will make the same salary no matter what. Also, even if there is a discrepancy about salary, the tax laws will take care of it. One of the few ways to have more money than anyone else is to be a doctor and work extra hours/patients or keep some of your money abroad. I actually know a lot about Norway and the culture since I lived there for a short time and have kept in touch with the friends I met there.

I'm sorry I mistated "tax bracket". THe tax information I got is published on bloomberg yearly and lists countries on the average taxes a person will pay out of their salary or average income. It said that a person in Norway making around 44k would pay 45% of their income out in taxes. This includes ALL taxes - property, sales tax, etc. For an American, the total amount was 25%.

I guess my main point out of all of this is that you have a high education or work very hard, it will not get you ahead in norway. I agree you will have a nice life and you will never have to worry. But you will also never have the opportunity to get ahead.

Cool that you studied in Trondheim. But then again, what you're saying is bullshit. If your norwegian friends tell you that you will earn the same no whatter what, then they must be pretty stupid. I'm actually disappointed that some norwegians said that. Funny that they said that, despite they're university students, in Norway you study to get better jobs = good salary. Thought that should be pretty clear. ;)

You don't know much about Norway, man. Know a lot? Shaking my head. The tax system in Norway is pretty fucked up, you need to pay back almost 50% of your main salary.

Dude, your last section is nothing but false. In Norway, education means a lot, just like in other countries. That you generalize Norway and look at it as a country where it doesn't matter if you went to university or dropped out of high school, is pretty ridiculous. It's not true. It will get you ahead. Of course. Just like in all the other countries.

So what this man has to say about Norway, don't save it as knowledge. Plain and simple because it's bullshit. If you're still alive, feel free to comment back, but make sure it's correct. :)

 

IS NOT a good measure of wealth!!! It is extremely misleading!!!!

Go ahead and make your 60k in Norway then if you think it's so great!!! I don't even KNOW anyone who makes less than 100k a year and you are freaking poor if you do!

 
nyc9982:
IS NOT a good measure of wealth!!! It is extremely misleading!!!!

Go ahead and make your 60k in Norway then if you think it's so great!!! I don't even KNOW anyone who makes less than 100k a year and you are freaking poor if you do!

You are right about GDP--that is why I posted article from UND for you. Middle of page...the list.

If you want to work for any bank, you must have a global sense--not preconcived, banal opinions about "communist" Russia and Norway.

As a child of an international coke dad, you should know better!!

 

[quote=gibranmeng]More off topic:

Oslo is easily one of the most expensive cities in the world if not the most expensive.

See more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/4669400.stm[/quote]

Yet more, more off topic.

Yes, Oslo is the most expensive city in the world.

See article below.+++++++++++++++++++++++

Oslo City Hall - a landmark in the world's most expensive city.

PHOTO: Kolstad, Tom A.

World's most expensive again Oslo has not only been named the most expensive city in the world to live in again, the purchasing power of residents has allegedly fallen. Related stories: Pricy transport and leisure - 27.07.2006 Real food costs fall - 18.05.2006 Housing prices up 9 percent - 02.01.2006 Norway priciest of all - 22.12.2005 Norway 'most expensive' place to live, again - 15.11.2005 Oslo worst Nordic capital - 06.10.2005 Gas prices shock tourists - 18.07.2005 Housing prices keep climbing - 27.06.2005 Oslo most expensive - 03.03.2005 Norway rich and expensive - 12.01.2005 Norwegian food prices to be investigated - 18.11.2004 Oslo again most expensive - 15.10.2004 Norway - beautiful, expensive, cold - 21.09.2004 Oslo and Paris expensive pleasures - 11.08.2004 Oslo slips on 'most-expensive' scale - 14.06.2004 Norway's food most expensive - 10.06.2004 The Swiss Bank USB's latest comparison of price levels and purchasing power in 71 world capitals and major cities places Oslo at the top of expensive cities. But the real news is that the purchasing power of Oslo residents is as low as 15th.

The survey finds four European cities plus Tokyo as the world's priciest. Salaries are highest in Scandinavia, Switzerland and the USA. Oslo, London, Copenhagen, Zurich and Tokyo take the top five spots as the world's most expensive cities.

Asian workers spend more time on the job than the rest of the world, striving on average nearly 50 days more a year than their counterparts in Western Europe.

Oslo had the most expensive 'shopping basket' of 122 set products and services, while especially high housing and living expenses in London and New York are noted.

Swiss cities Zurich and Geneva kept their status as spots of highest purchasing power. In contrast to most other countries, where teachers and bus drivers earn below the average, such public sector jobs are relatively well paid in Switzerland and Scandinavia.

Norwegian experts were surprised and apparently puzzled by the results.

"It is strange that Oslo ends as low (in purchasing power) as 15th place - I would have expected to be significantly higher on the list," Professor of Social Economics Steinar Holden at the University of Oslo told newspaper VG.

He was especially surprised that German cities such as Frankfurt, Munich and Berlin were above Oslo on this list. IN contrast to, for example, Ireland, the living standard in Germany is supposed to have declined over the past 15-20 years.

"It is very surprising that the residents of these German cities have more

 

The GDP figures are a little misleading. Ireland gets 5th place but there is a very high cost of living and a single person gets taxed at 20% on their first 35k and 41% on the rest (just changed from 42%). So if you earn €120k you get to keep just €78k to pay for the inflated goods and services which are available. You've got to deal with stealth taxes and socialist healthcare, transport and housing systems.

 

These are your best German speaking bets. I'm sure there might be a tiny office or two in Vienna, but it is not a major location by any means.

Almost every BB has an office in Frankfurt, but it's only for regional/local work. You will need to be fluent in German in most (if not all) cases.

Most banks also have something in Zurich as well, but with the exception of Credit Suisse and UBS (which are Swiss), the offices are again just regional outposts. UBS and CS's main European offices are in London like everybody else.

A few other points:

1) It is definitely harder to get into these regional offices. These places don't have standardized recruiting processes. So they hire either through connections, the occassional on-campus process in Germany (if they are growing), or traditional job posting. Because they are smaller, there are fewer jobs. Because of the work permit, they will be less likely to want to deal with you. Also just from a strangeness perspective, they will be less likely to talk to you.

2) They work just as many hours as in London. Particularly because the teams are small, they get stuck doing everything for the German-speaking region. Not to mention, they often get stuff dumped on them from the London office. You won't have time to enjoy the mountains and whatever other happy BS you imagine.

3) Not sure how old you are, but the education system is very different than the US. Most Germans (and Swiss) don't finish high school until 18 or 19. Then they take time for military service. They don't just get Bachelor's degrees, rather they don't stop until they get their Master's degree. In the 6-8 years it takes them to do this, they do multiple internships and study abroad semesters. Thus they don't graduate usually until they are 27-ish, with a Master's Degree, multiple foreign languages, and a lot of work experience. And these are the entry level analysts. If you are just out of undergrad, they will find you very odd and not compelling. You will be too young, less educated, and less experienced, and if your German isn't flawless, that will be another problem. The battle is definitely uphill.

4) Taxes: Germany, very high and going up. Switzerland, lower than the US, but you will have to pay the difference to the US goverment anyway (worst thing about the US for sure). Thus, Switzerland will seem even more expensive to you than everyone else because you take home less of your check than everyone else.

5) Salaries are typically lower in these countries than in the US/London. The whole system is much more biased towards age and experience than the Anglo world, so moving up or coming over with experience will also be challenging.

My personal opinion is if you really want to do banking in Europe is to go to London. All of the banks are very diverse (my team alone has French, Germans, Italians, Spanish, English, Canadian, Nigerian, Austrian, Russian, and the list goes on).

You will be working so much anyway (either in London or Frankfurt) that you won't have time to be seeing the countryside anyway. So that is a negligible difference. Plus on the rare weekend off, jump on a plane and be in Germany in 2 hours.

The other plus for London is that if you get in a big bank, you can ask in couple of years to be transfered to Frankfurt either temporarily or permanently where you will be assured of keeping your salary and position. Plus there are more jobs, deals, and networking opportunities in London.

FYI: I am American, but attended college in Germany for year, actually interviewed in Frankfurt at 21 with my bachelor's degree, and got told by 2 of them direclty that I was too young (still wondering why they interview me in the first place). After some time doing "regular jobs" I got my MBA and now work in London IB. I too one day hope to move back to Germany and I have been there at least 6 times this year.

Hope this helps and good luck.

 

Thank you for an excellent post. I too am in London IB. My team has been covering the Nordic region extensively the past two years.

Will be transfering to Latin America group soon and relocating there. Have no illusions of having time to learn the argentine tango.

 

@Alexey Kirilov or anyone else in London IB:

How hard is it for people that haven't studied in the UK, EU or US to get a job in IB in london? How about internships?

 

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