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10/24/11

I am a senior at lower tier Ivy going through On Campus Interviews... and, to say the least, the results so far have been very disappointing. This year's recruiting has been brutal in my opinion, as like 2 of the Bulge Brackets didn't even show up to recruit this year at my school. I am kicking myself in the butt for not going for SA recruiting back in my junior year. Last year, I didn't know I wanted IBD and did Consulting internship. (which, unfortunately, didn't lead to permanent offer) This year, like 500 kids from my school applied for like 3-4 analyst jobs at GS. I was wondering if anyone else out there going through interviews have tough time at their school. (I hope my school's not the only one that has a bitch recruiting season...) To those who aren't getting IBD offers: what is your next plan?? What do you plan to do after graduating?

I have 3.5 GPA in Econ at low tier Ivy and got dinged by all IBD shops and didn't make it to any of their second rounds. I realize I am not the most competitive candidate as there are kids with better GPA and more finance-related resume, but, I expected to at least land several interviews, which wasn't the case. (I got 1 on-campus interview after pre-select and didn't make it to second round)

Is this year's FT recruiting for IBD one of the worst ever in history? What's the deal.

Comments (223)

10/22/11

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

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10/22/11
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

10/22/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

10/22/11
bears1208:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

Agree with this, if you can get a decent job without doing a MSF, take it.

Looking at the MSF stats at decent places, I saw that at most 1/3 of them got "good" finance jobs. These are the jobs that you're fighting over now. The rest were rather unappealing. Those don't seem like great odds.

10/22/11
bears1208:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

Does your school get F500 corp finance recruiting? At my school, only F500 company that came was GE for its finance rotational program. Where/how do I even apply for these jobs if these companies don't come to recruit on campus.

10/22/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
bears1208:

did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?

Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.

I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.

Does your school get F500 corp finance recruiting? At my school, only F500 company that came was GE for its finance rotational program. Where/how do I even apply for these jobs if these companies don't come to recruit on campus.

A few do, but not more than like 5 or 6. But I did leg work, got in touch with alumni, and did things like apply online and/or send my resume to contacts. I applied to roughly 75ish jobs and got like 15, first rounds and only one IBD. Also, fwiw, one of my f500 offers is a business smaller analyst for a consumer goods company that I got through OCR and one was a known finance rotational program I got a phone interview for from networking. It's been tough because my internship experience was tech related but I've taken what I've gotten and I'd be happy with BB private banking. Fwiw I think the msf only helps depending on what type of internship you can get this summer. If you can't get an IBD internship you probably won't have any more luck in that department but maybe more luck in f500.

10/22/11

Yes, I hear recruiting is pretty bad at my school as well. You can extend your graduation and apply for SA this winter if you really want to be an analyst in investment banking.

10/22/11

Yea, its been pretty rough at my school as well. We aren't ivy or a BB target, but we are semi-target for firms such as Wells, SunTrust, Raymond James, and R.W Baird. This year we placed 4 undergrads and 7-10 out of the MSF class when it is usually much higher. The problem is that most banks are really raising the bar. When I went to the Wells superday I was shocked to see guys from Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U Penn as my competition. All 6 of my fellow university super dayers were wait listed, but none of us are bad candidates. (A friend of mine accepted an offer from Jefferies).

It's really just a touch game out there, and it is extremely hard to break in if you don't have a connection or haven't done extensive networking. I didn't make the cut from 2 different superdays, but I was fortunate enough to get an offer from my third which I had networked with for several months.

If you can't break in for FT, then I would look for a summer IB analyst role and do MSF. This should allow you time to ride out this storm, develop your resume more tailored to banking, and give you time to start some strong networking initiatives.

Best of luck and I hope everything works out! Hang in there!

Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe those who are dedicated.

10/22/11
THE PsYcHoLoGy:

Yea, its been pretty rough at my school as well. We aren't ivy or a BB target, but we are semi-target for firms such as Wells, SunTrust, Raymond James, and R.W Baird. This year we placed 4 undergrads and 7-10 out of the MSF class when it is usually much higher. The problem is that most banks are really raising the bar. When I went to the Wells superday I was shocked to see guys from Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U Penn as my competition. All 6 of my fellow university super dayers were wait listed, but none of us are bad candidates. (A friend of mine accepted an offer from Jefferies).

It's really just a touch game out there, and it is extremely hard to break in if you don't have a connection or haven't done extensive networking. I didn't make the cut from 2 different superdays, but I was fortunate enough to get an offer from my third which I had networked with for several months.

If you can't break in for FT, then I would look for a summer IB analyst role and do MSF. This should allow you time to ride out this storm, develop your resume more tailored to banking, and give you time to start some strong networking initiatives.

Best of luck and I hope everything works out! Hang in there!

Congrats on your offer. I am jealous. And, thanks for your suggestion. My fear with doing an MSF program is that IBD recruiting may not get any better anytime soon and I might still strike out on IBD, even if I go to MSF. I would hate to spend all that money and time to come up short again.

I do agree with your observation that landing IBD gig this year is a bitch. I have 2 friends at Harvard and they tell me unless you landed SA position for internship your junior year or have some contacts to bank on, you are pretty much fucked for IBD recruiting, even coming out of Harvard with good GPA. So, I guess going into FT IBD recruiting without SA IBD internship background is really the kiss of death. (I wish I knew this fact earlier...)

By the way, do banks still recruit MSF kids who did not have IBD internships in the past before the master's degree?? And, what are some MSF programs that place well into IBD. Thanks in advance.

10/22/11

a lot of banks just froze ft hiring and gave out crazy return offers to their summer interns, and most interns are going back.

i'm sure this is not as bad for 2009/2010 graduates, but it's pretty shitty

10/22/11

Why do we feel bad for the Cornell kid that didn't even decide he wanted to go into IBD until his senior year..? OP is really at a huge disadvantage I don't know how he will manage..Your classmates are going into corporate finance with the f500's they lined up as their back up options. You probably should have worked harder.

10/22/11
Sean518:

Why do we feel bad for the Cornell kid that didn't even decide he wanted to go into IBD until his senior year..? OP is really at a huge disadvantage I don't know how he will manage..Your classmates are going into corporate finance with the f500's they lined up as their back up options. You probably should have worked harder.

I am not asking for your sympathy. I am interested in hearing about others' advice or their courses of action if they find themselves in similar situations as myself. I wanted to go into Management Consulting initially but after talking with several bankers and interacting with my kids who were in IBD, I decided IBD fits my interest and career goals better. FWIW, until last year, I thought I could try out consulting for internship and still land a banking job at FT recruiting in the fall. I just had this misconception that having management consulting internship on my resume would enable me to break into high finance and other consulting shops, too. (this is what the career services lady told me)

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "being at huge disadvantage".

10/22/11

I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.

10/22/11
timatom90:

I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.

Holy shit... where did you get this information? Did you have any luck in IBD so far? FT recruiting this year really is the kiss of death...

10/22/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.

Holy shit... where did you get this information? Did you have any luck in IBD so far? FT recruiting this year really is the kiss of death...

I networked a lot over the summer, wasn't too excited to go back to the bank where I interned this summer (regional city), and a lot of the banks were straight forward in telling me that their classes were nearly full. I've had success in getting interviews and final rounds, but like I said, a lot of these banks are only hiring 1-2 analysts out of their 10-20ish superday applicants and no offers yet (turned down my return offer... starting to feel pretty dumb lol). Good luck with your own recruiting.

10/22/11

Also I just want to point out that relying strictly on OCR has always been a terrible idea.

10/23/11

If you say "like" as anywhere near as often as you write it, then I like totally understand why you like couldn't get hired.

10/24/11
Smith3408:

If you say "like" as anywhere near as often as you write it, then I like totally understand why you like couldn't get hired.

This was my first thought exactly. If you use it this much in text, I can only imagine how much you use it automatically while speaking.

10/23/11

you wrote that you go to Cornell in your profile. No point in saying that you go to a law tier ivy. People can easily find out. also, i'm not sure what you are talking about. i have numerous senior friends who have gotten offers at good banks and hedge funds. You probably are just not a competitive applicant. and that is your own fault

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/23/11

It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.

10/24/11
MD8:

It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.

Thanks for your suggestion.

I was thinking of going this route in case nothing pans out. Do you know if I will be at significant disadvantage at MBA recruiting for IBD, because I did not have pre-MBA IBD analyst work experience?

I am wondering if I can just do non-IBD job for 3-4 years, go to MBA, and still land an IBD associate gig.

One thing I am afraid of is that even if I go to a top MBA, I may not walk away with that IBD associate job that I want. My brother went to Harvard MBA (he graduated last year) and he told me recruiting was tough as shit. He told me that the problem he had was that there are way too many ex-I-bankers at Harvard MBA/ other top MBA programs and all of them want to go back to banking. And, as we know, the economy is a piece of shit now. He didn't land IBD or MBB consulting and he is working at a F500 corporate finance.

Right now, I am trying to evaluate different options and I would like to maximize my chances of getting IBD down the road.

10/27/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
MD8:

It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.

Thanks for your suggestion.

I was thinking of going this route in case nothing pans out. Do you know if I will be at significant disadvantage at MBA recruiting for IBD, because I did not have pre-MBA IBD analyst work experience?

I am wondering if I can just do non-IBD job for 3-4 years, go to MBA, and still land an IBD associate gig.

One thing I am afraid of is that even if I go to a top MBA, I may not walk away with that IBD associate job that I want. My brother went to Harvard MBA (he graduated last year) and he told me recruiting was tough as shit. He told me that the problem he had was that there are way too many ex-I-bankers at Harvard MBA/ other top MBA programs and all of them want to go back to banking. And, as we know, the economy is a piece of shit now. He didn't land IBD or MBB consulting and he is working at a F500 corporate finance.

Right now, I am trying to evaluate different options and I would like to maximize my chances of getting IBD down the road.

Finance job market this year for top MBA's is actually worse than last year. Ex-bankers who wanted buyside are either going back to banking or doing something different. Lot of second-years I've talked to are getting pretty scared.

10/24/11

I think us non-target folks have done a lot of damage to the target-school system over the past five years. Recruiting shouldn't be based on which school you went to but what you've done with the cards you've been dealt over the past few years.

Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing some spots. By banking standards, 3.5 in Econ at Cornell has become a bit subpar when you are competing against Math majors with 3.7s.

Also, it is a tough economy for FT recruiting. Maybe this is a good time to readjust your expectations and look for work at an F500 firm.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:

I think there's a lot of damage being done to the target school system most banks have by us non-target folks.

Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing spots.

You were a bad fit for Cornell. They never should have accepted you. The Cornellians I know are some of the least entitled, least presumptuous Ivy Leaguers out there. You would have been a much better fit for Art History at Brown.

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

10/24/11
bears1208:

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

I know a bunch of Cornell Engineers. They're all pretty cool guys and fun to hang out with. They can talk about Yuengling and college football all day long, or tell jokes about circuits. They DON'T talk about spending lots of money on stupid stuff, they DON'T enjoy hanging out at the Cornell/Yale/Harvard club, and they fit well into our group of state school engineers.

I dunno. My experience is that the Arrogance/Intellect quotient is lower than nearly every other Ivy. Slightly higher denominator, much lower numerator. It is much more consistent with that of UChicago, Northwestern, and Michigan than that of Brown, Columbia, or Dartmouth. When is Cornell going to leave the Ivies and join the Big Ten?

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
bears1208:

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

I know a bunch of Cornell Engineers. They're all pretty cool guys and fun to hang out with. They can talk about Yuengling and college football all day long, or tell jokes about circuits. They DON'T talk about spending lots of money on stupid stuff, they DON'T enjoy hanging out at the Cornell/Yale/Harvard club, and they fit well into our group of state school engineers.

Cornellians are some of the least pretentious Ivy Leaguers I've met. If the Big Ten became the Big Thirteen, Cornell would be an excellent fit. They're as chill as Northwestern- maybe even UMich.

I dunno. My experience is that the Arrogance/Intellect quotient is lower than nearly every other Ivy. Slightly higher denominator, much lower numerator.

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

10/24/11
bears1208:

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.

I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.

I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
bears1208:

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.

I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.

I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D

IP, let's be honest... Illinois, until their recent resurgence had a tough enough time beating Indiana, let alone the rest of the Big Ten schools. That being said, the Illini fans that have come up to tailgate in Happy Valley have always been gracious and fun guests... Gotta love the Big Ten camaraderie... It makes me smile that we are taking more and more jobs from the "Ivy elite"...

10/24/11
rufiolove:
IlliniProgrammer:
bears1208:

I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.

We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.

I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.

I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D

IP, let's be honest... Illinois, until their recent resurgence had a tough enough time beating Indiana, let alone the rest of the Big Ten schools. That being said, the Illini fans that have come up to tailgate in Happy Valley have always been gracious and fun guests... Gotta love the Big Ten camaraderie... It makes me smile that we are taking more and more jobs from the "Ivy elite"...

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

10/24/11
bears1208:
IlliniProgrammer:

I think there's a lot of damage being done to the target school system most banks have by us non-target folks.

Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing spots.

You were a bad fit for Cornell. They never should have accepted you. The Cornellians I know are some of the least entitled, least presumptuous Ivy Leaguers out there. You would have been a much better fit for Art History at Brown.

Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

10/24/11

LOLOLOLOL toooo much fail in this thread for me to comment.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.

A physics major spends about 80% of college solving calculus and stats problems between his math, physics, and engineering courses. I am not convinced that the liberal arts teach the same discipline of focus and offer an equivalent set of professional competencies when you oscillate between Modern Latin American History and Cognitive Psych.

If you love liberal arts, that's great, but it's almost more of a hobby than a discipline. I wish colleges taught hang gliding as a major- I would have been all over that especially if I had parents willing to pay for it.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.

A physics major spends about 80% of college solving calculus and stats problems between his math, physics, and engineering courses. I am not convinced that the liberal arts teach the same discipline of focus and offer an equivalent set of professional competencies when you oscillate between Modern Latin American History and Cognitive Psych.

If you love liberal arts, that's great, but it's almost more of a hobby than a discipline. I wish colleges taught hang gliding as a major- I would have been all over that especially if I had parents willing to pay for it.

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about your analytical toolkit, mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from a top 100 school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

It doesn't. I have no problem with people who went to target schools. The problem is when folks think that going to target school X entitles them to something or makes them special.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Nobody is bashing the Ivies. Chicagoans are very sensitive to the arrogance/skill quotient, with particular regard to the numerator. UChicago and Northwestern are in the same boat as many Ivies, but they follow a different culture. If you don't think your school makes you special, the bashing stops. Notre Dame on the other hand thinks they have an amazing football team but it keeps losing, so Chicagoans like to laugh about that too. Marquette thinks that they're the best Catholic school in the country, which we also make fun of. It is the same story over and over where somebody thinks they're special, annoys a bunch of Chicagoans, and gets clobbered for it. You are not being singled out so much for the jealousy as much as the fact that, like Notre Dame, you're not as special as you claim to be. (Unsurprisingly, Notre Dame fans brush it off as jealousy when we laugh at them for another losing season and wear ties from our sports teams the day after they beat ND, and Marquetters get annoyed and start claiming jealousy when we point out that they're #90 in the rankings vs. Michigan's ~35.)

Chicago is a smaller town than New York where a little more community comes with a little more accountability. We get hit by tornadoes, blizzards, and all kinds of other stuff every year, and we've learned a healthy respect for man's limitations. And rumors about our education notwithstanding, we've also read the stories about Icharus and Arachne. So if you're going to claim that you've got something really special and amazing, Chicagoans and Midwesterners in general are going to call you on that hubris, or at the very least see if you've got the skills to back it up. That's just how the culture works out there.

Take your number, do your thing, and don't pretend you or anything about you is all that special- otherwise somebody with more skill and humility than you is going to come along and have some fun at your expense.

10/24/11
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

10/24/11
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.

10/24/11
bears1208:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.

You could go on but you would continually not make sense. I said my 3.7 was absolutely nothing special for WALL STREET recruiting at an Ivy. So why should this kid think his 3.5 with no internship experience will get him a job. That's what I was saying. Sorry you didn't understand that.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.

You could go on but you would continually not make sense. I said my 3.7 was absolutely nothing special for WALL STREET recruiting at an Ivy. So why should this kid think his 3.5 with no internship experience will get him a job. That's what I was saying. Sorry you didn't understand that.

Actually, uhhh, you may want to reread what you wrote. Man, this is getting a little embarrassing for you.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

10/24/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

Dude, I don't care what your GPA is and how smart/ hard working you are. I don't give shit. The point is you are contributing no useful information or advice whatsoever. Instead, you go on telling me that I am a pussy, retard, and piece of crap.

This world will be a better place without a-holes like you. Sincerely.

10/24/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

Dude, I don't care what your GPA is and how smart/ hard working you are. I don't give shit. The point is you are contributing no useful information or advice whatsoever. Instead, you go on telling me that I am a pussy, retard, and piece of crap.

This world will be a better place without a-holes like you. Sincerely.

Well, I didn't attack you until you made comments directed at me because I called your 3.5 gpa crap, which is FACTUALLY CORRECT. I said your gpa was crap, which again, IS TRUE.

Listen, you asked why recruiting was so tough this year and I answered. You tried blaming your failures on the lack of recruiting, which again shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

For example, all of these firms came this semester to recruit:

Goldman
JP Morgan
Citi
UBS
DB
Moelis
Lazard
Morgan Stanley
Bank of America
Guggenheim

Bridgewater
Tudor Investment
Weiss Asset Management
Susquehanna Investment Group

and countless others. Sorry you struck out, recruiting was perfectly normal.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/25/11
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Will Hunting:
bears1208:
Brady4MVP:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.

Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.

Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.

It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.

Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.

Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.

Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.

IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.

Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.

I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.

Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.

Wow... just wow dude.

3.5 in Econ at Cornell is crap?? Sorry, I may not be the smartest guy out there, but, I did what I had to do and worked decently hard at school. I am ashamed to say that I go to the same school as a self-entitled, elitist D-bag like you who waters down our school's rep among others, as evidenced by some anti-Cornell sentiment among posters in this thread.

If you are going to continue to launch ad-hominem attacks against me (I don't know why you are constantly saying I am not 'competitive' or crap, etc), please don't post here.

I made this thread to hear constructive criticisms from others and get advice as to how I should steer my job search. If you don't have anything substantive to offer, kiss good bye.

Listen you little pussy, you received no offers because you are fucking idiot. If you can't realize that a 3.5 in ECON with no relevant work experience is not going to get you offers in the most competitive industry then I am sorry you are so ignorant.

I have a 3.7 and have interned at a buyside place, and guess what, I AM STILL NETWORKING MY ASS OFF because I understand how hard it is. Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you.

Cornell is a great school and is absolutely a target but that does not mean you will get a job just because you go there. I am in no way watering down our schools reputation so STFU, grow some balls and stop being such a fucking pussy. Go get a job in corporate finance or join the peace corps if you don't like it.

Also, you can't hold a candle to the things I have accomplished in my life. I am in no way self-entitled or an elitist so take your retarded baseless comments and go fuck yourself with the other retards who have sub 3.6 in the easiest major in the world.

I can't believe you really said that posting on a website makes you smart.

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

+1

well stated. i'd rather work with smart engineers from state schools than bullshit artists from "top targets" any day of the week.

here's a secret to HYP: yes, a lot of kids in there are fucking smart, but a lot of them lied and cheated their way in, so their admission is more a function of their mendacity. do a survey on how many of them got special status as learning disabled so they were able to get extra time on SATs, APs, regular exams, etc.

dig a little more into how many of them flat out lied on their ECs and activities. having interned in the adcom for 1.5 years i have much less regard for the admissions process now than before.

10/25/11
ivoteforthatguy:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

+1

well stated. i'd rather work with smart engineers from state schools than bullshit artists from "top targets" any day of the week.

here's a secret to HYP: yes, a lot of kids in there are fucking smart, but a lot of them lied and cheated their way in, so their admission is more a function of their mendacity. do a survey on how many of them got special status as learning disabled so they were able to get extra time on SATs, APs, regular exams, etc.

dig a little more into how many of them flat out lied on their ECs and activities. having interned in the adcom for 1.5 years i have much less regard for the admissions process now than before.

lol, are you fucking serious?

bitter much?

10/25/11
BallDontLie:
ivoteforthatguy:
IlliniProgrammer:
Brady4MVP:

What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?

LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.

If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.

I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.

Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.

Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.

Do you really want to go there?

Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.

+1

well stated. i'd rather work with smart engineers from state schools than bullshit artists from "top targets" any day of the week.

here's a secret to HYP: yes, a lot of kids in there are fucking smart, but a lot of them lied and cheated their way in, so their admission is more a function of their mendacity. do a survey on how many of them got special status as learning disabled so they were able to get extra time on SATs, APs, regular exams, etc.

dig a little more into how many of them flat out lied on their ECs and activities. having interned in the adcom for 1.5 years i have much less regard for the admissions process now than before.

lol, are you fucking serious?

bitter much?

serious yes. bitter? i had to wake up at 6am/go to bed at 1am regularly in HS to get myself into my top choice. i did this on my own without any cheating or assists from psychologists. i don't appreciate a bunch of mediocre fucks who got to the same goal with cheating. so yes, a little bitter. you got me there.

10/24/11

I don't think people realize that networking is THE MOST important part of getting a job (far more important than technicals or brainteasers, those are the easy parts...)

Even if you have an impressive resume, it's one resume in a stack of ~300 to ~500 for every OCR job at a target (heard this straight from several recruiters).

They give out first rounds to 10-20 people, then second rounds to ~1/3rd of those, and end up hiring maybe ~3-5.

The hardest part is going from the resume drop to getting a 1st round interview, at which point your chances are significantly improved... talk to alums, frat brothers, family friends, etc... talk to ANALYSTS because analysts from your alma mater (or in the case of non-Ivys, they have a non-core school resume team too) will be weeding out the resumes. The best way to get an interview is to have an analyst pass your resume straight through to the "interview" pile without having to pass through the resume gauntlet.

Once you get the interview, it's all a game of numbers--assuming that you're a reasonably-qualified candidate.

10/24/11
Solidarity:

I don't think people realize that networking is THE MOST important part of getting a job (far more important than technicals or brainteasers, those are the easy parts...)

Even if you have an impressive resume, it's one resume in a stack of ~300 to ~500 for every OCR job at a target (heard this straight from several recruiters).

They give out first rounds to 10-20 people, then second rounds to ~1/3rd of those, and end up hiring maybe ~3-5.

The hardest part is going from the resume drop to getting a 1st round interview, at which point your chances are significantly improved... talk to alums, frat brothers, family friends, etc... talk to ANALYSTS because analysts from your alma mater (or in the case of non-Ivys, they have a non-core school resume team too) will be weeding out the resumes. The best way to get an interview is to have an analyst pass your resume straight through to the "interview" pile without having to pass through the resume gauntlet.

Once you get the interview, it's all a game of numbers--assuming that you're a reasonably-qualified candidate.

I think networking can be quite important for banking jobs. But for hedge funds, private equity, and prop trading, I'm not quite sure it matters that much. Usually companies like citadel/de shaw/jane street, etc., could care less who you know. They want smart kids with high gpa's in quant majors, who can rock the technical questions during the interviews.

10/24/11

Hell, at an Ivy/target, your ROIC on networking will be fucking incredible compared to a non-target. If a kid from my school with a 3.5+ in econ/stats/math/finance, 2200+, and a demonstrated interest in finance took the initiative to network me 3 months before recruiting season, hell yea I'm telling HR to give him an interview.

I think networking can be quite important for banking jobs. But for hedge funds, private equity, and prop trading, I'm not quite sure it matters that much. Usually companies like citadel/de shaw/jane street, etc., could care less who you know. They want smart kids with high gpa's in quant majors, who can rock the technical questions during the interviews.

My point holds true for a lot of PE and more fundamental, value-oriented HF's as well. And ceteris paribus, a guy who networks still stands a better chance of landing a job at DE or Jane Street

10/24/11
Solidarity:

My point holds true for a lot of PE and more fundamental, value-oriented HF's as well. And ceteris paribus, a guy who networks still stands a better job of land at DE or Jane Street

It's always good to know somebody who can get you an interview, but in trading much more emphasis is placed upon personality and technical skill. A lot of quants and traders are INTJs who (A) find networkers incredibly annoying and really don't want to work with those folks and (B) eat what they kill and expect others to do the same.

I want to see a kid who's not exactly a networker but who's got a certain level of technical skill, work ethic, and bravery/toughness. And to be fair, it's a lot easier to test the bravery/toughness in a kid who started the game late than started it early.

10/24/11

Must be nice to have OCR

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/24/11

I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.

I don't care how competitive OCR is. The point is that you actually get a first round, you get a chance however 'slim' it is, non-targets have to work 2x-5x-10x-20x times whatever the hell it is harder to even get that chance that 5/10 times never comes anyway. Don't be ignorant of recruiting reality.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.

Funny... just had a conversation about that. I've met some people in grad programs at Harvard and they rarely tell anyone they just met that they go to Harvard. It's always, "a [insert program here] in Boston".

Although, I did also hear a guy hitting on some chick in line for a bar and said he's getting his mba/md from Harvard and he's going to be "mother fucking rich". Girl turned around and called him a dbag to her friends. It's these types of people IP is referring to...

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10/24/11

Edit: I can't write anything coherent, but you're wrong.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/24/11

IP, non-targets are not disproportionately successful on Wall St. If that were true, there would be far more recruiting at non-targets. Why wouldn't banks recruit the people who are most likely to be successful?

If you're talking about banking specifically, it's full of mediocre people and a few people who really excel at it. Where did all the top bankers go to school -- you know Greenhill, Perella, Moelis, etc? Targets.

The rest of the top talent tends to filter out to HFs and PE firms, most of which are chock-full of target kids.

This is not to say that there aren't smart, successful non-target students, many of whom were more than smart enough to be admitted to a target. But to say that they are disproportionately successful or on average better in any other context is just not true.

10/24/11

IP, non-targets are not disproportionately successful on Wall St. If that were true, there would be far more recruiting at non-targets. Why wouldn't banks recruit the people who are most likely to be successful?

Let's be clear. There's a difference between your average non-target and the non-target who makes it onto wall street. Same with the average target school kid and average target school kid who makes it onto wall street. It's simply conditional probability- given that you HAVE made it to wall street, the fact that you had to clear a higher hurdle coming from a non-target school means you're generally more competitive.

The rest of the top talent tends to filter out to HFs and PE firms, most of which are chock-full of target kids.

Can't speak to PE shops, but Getco and Citadel have a number of state school kids. Know a kid 4 years out of school who's running Citadel's HFT operation on the CBOE. Yup, state schooler.

This is not to say that there aren't smart, successful non-target students, many of whom were more than smart enough to be admitted to a target. But to say that they are disproportionately successful or on average better in any other context is just not true.

Nobody is saying that the average state schooler is smarter than the average target school kid. What I'm saying is that large non-target schools get a bigger benefit from fat tails than target schools. The top 50 at say, Nebraska or Pitt represent 0.5% of the student population while the top 50 at Harvard represent 2-3%. So a well-run firm capable of combing through resumes and doing lots of strong interviews is going to be able to find better candidates- and pay them less- at a large non-target school than at a target.

To be honest, banks go to target schools because they're lazy. They would rather have the schools that do the filtering based upon high school accomplishments and removing responsible upper-middle-class parents who've paid down their mortgages so they have home equity that FAFSA thinks is available for tuition payments. This way, no matter how badly they screw up the interview process, only 30% of the entering class will have to be dumped in the next two years.

Frankly I think a kid who goes to a lower tier school because he gets a scholarship or in-state tuition is pretty darned smart if he's got the brains and discipline to back it up and get a strong GPA with a few strong extracurriculars and a polished interview.

So why not just have a better-run recruiting process? The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard. The non-target folks are forcing the banks to reduce the difference between the two bars that target school kids and non-target kids face by providing more information about these schools and where to find the smartest candidates. Eventually we'll be rid of the target school system and yes, there will be disproportionate numbers of people from Ivies at banks, but everyone will clear the same (now much higher) bar. We'll take the top 0.5% from community colleges, top 2% from state schools, top 5% from lower-tier Ivies, and top 7-10% from H/Y/P/W/C/S. It's not what you did in high school but what you've done lately that counts, anyways. Why should we take the bottom 90% from ANY school?

10/24/11

I go to Georgetown, and while it used to be the case that banks universally preferred to recruit kids from the School of Foreign Service over kids from the undergrad business school, recent years have shifted that trend a little bit. This year OCR has been pretty thin, but it seems like just as many, if not more, business school kids have bulge bracket or elite boutique jobs.

The undergrad business school has become more selective, but not quickly enough to justify the sudden shift in recruiting success from SFS to business school. It seems like banks are starting to prefer kids that have shown interest in Finance and Accounting (or other related fields) in their major and their extracurriculars over the students in the more prestigious programs like SFS, or liberal arts majors at Ivies, even though admissions stats would suggest that, on average, those kids are smarter...

10/24/11

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

I came here to hear others' advice and their stories as to how recruiting is going for them. I am a long-time lurker of this forum and found many posts useful.

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

10/24/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
IlliniProgrammer:

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

I came here to hear others' advice and their stories as to how recruiting is going for them. I am a long-time lurker of this forum and found many posts useful.

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

I don't understand what is wrong with you. I never mentioned anything about you until you said something to ME. You asked if it was the recruiting. I said no, YOUR GPA is not good enough to warrant interviews with no experience. But for some reason your reading comprehension is lacking and you interpret that as a ad-hominem attack.

Take accountability for your own problems, don't blame it on the recruiting.

Grow up guy.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
IlliniProgrammer:

Wow. This thread has spiralled quickly out of control. Why are two Ivy Leaguers acting so foolishly? I thought you guys were supposed to be smart or something.

I came here to hear others' advice and their stories as to how recruiting is going for them. I am a long-time lurker of this forum and found many posts useful.

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

I don't understand what is wrong with you. I never mentioned anything about you until you said something to ME. You asked if it was the recruiting. I said no, YOUR GPA is not good enough to warrant interviews with no experience. But for some reason your reading comprehension is lacking and you interpret that as a ad-hominem attack.

Take accountability for your own problems, don't blame it on the recruiting.

Grow up guy.

No experience?

I had internship with one of MBB consulting last summer. Granted, it is not finance-related experience, but MBB consulting on my resume is legit, and I thought that combined with 3.5 GPA may land some interviews.

I would try to stay away from saying that a person with 3.5 GPA is a retard or something in that nature. Here's the hint: many people out there have sub-3.5 GPA both at Cornell and outside Cornell, and if you say some bull shit like 'dude, 3.5 = retard', chances are people will not be very impressed with you.

10/24/11

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'.

Had you stopped after the first sentence, you'd have looked like an adult. Now the fighting continues.

A 3.5 does not make you a retard, but it doesn't make you a competitive candidate for banking at Cornell. Try to find a job at a Fortune 500 firm and see if you can transition into banking later.

It's a tough market. That GPA would have cut it five years ago. Not anymore.

10/24/11
IlliniProgrammer:

I did not expect to hear that 3.5 in Econ at Cornell would warrant someone calling me a 'retard' or 'pussy'. And, I did not even ask for this guy's feedback, but he kept mentioning that I am a retard or pussy. I think this particular person in question is a faggot gunner with 2-inch dick pissed he never got laid and resorting to calling anyone below 3.7 GPA a 'retard'.

Had you stopped after the first sentence, you'd have looked like an adult. Now the fighting continues.

A 3.5 does not make you a retard, but it doesn't make you a competitive candidate for banking at Cornell. Try to find a job at a Fortune 500 firm and see if you can transition into banking later.

It's a tough market. That GPA would have cut it five years ago. Not anymore.

Thank you for your feedback.

I got interviews with some top consulting firms last year with my GPA, so I figured I would stand a decent chance of landing interviews for banking roles.

What kind of jobs should I be gunning for?? And, do you have any advice as to how I can lateral to IBD later?? Thanks for your advice.

10/24/11

What kind of jobs should I be gunning for?? And, do you have any advice as to how I can lateral to IBD later?? Thanks for your advice.

The energy patch is booming. BP has a huge trading program that flies under the radar. Same with Royal Dutch Shell, Exelon, and NRG.

It's great experience and the competition is a bit less extreme.

10/24/11

Enrique, were you unable to get a consulting job? Consulting to top mba to IBD seems like your best bet.

10/24/11

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

10/25/11
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

10/26/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

You really need to network. If you don't have a background in finance or something that otherwise demonstrates your interest in finance, then it's time to hit up your alumni network since at least this way you get to explain your story to someone, who, if they believe you and like you, would likely help you out.

10/26/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

In my opinion going from cornell to MSF program will look like a pretty major step down

why dont you just go run a hotel in some exotic locale?

10/26/11
deal_mkr:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
timatom90:

You were unable to get interviews from ibanks with MBB on your resume? I find that kind of surprising, not that anyone cares about my opinion. Do you have anything specifically finance related on your resume? If not, the banks could just be assuming you're applying as a backup...

If your goal is to get into IB asap, then maybe consider an MSF, and go for SA recruiting this year (but be sure to check with HR at banks to see if you can do this). In any case, networking will land you far more interviews.

Yeah, I got just one first round interview after pre-select. I am now doing some research on MSF programs that may be worthwhile to attend.

So, if MSF program is 1-year program (i think a lot of MSF programs are 1-year, right?), I should really strive to score a SA internship before MSF starts, right? I have the feeling that MSF FT recruiting is going to be not too pretty without SA IBD experience just like FT recruiting isn't going so pretty for undergrad. Or, I am thinking of taking a non-finance job, working 1-2 years and try to lateral into IBD. But, I am not sure how realistic that approach really is.

In my opinion going from cornell to MSF program will look like a pretty major step down

why dont you just go run a hotel in some exotic locale?

This depends on where he gets his msf. If he goes to princeton or LSE it's definitely not. If he goes to vandy or WUSTL there will be a little less as IBD recruiting through OCR but not by much. And in those cases it will really depend on networking/this summers SA. He can easily sell that to an employer.

10/24/11

It's a tough market. Good ideas are cheap and cash is very expensive. IMHO, the best move is to land the job you can and pay cash for school.

10/24/11

OP, I'm glad you didn't get a job in banking. I can tell just by reading your posts that you don't deserve it. Have fun getting anywhere in life.

You are just a whining baby.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11
Will Hunting:

OP, I'm glad you didn't get a job in banking. I can tell just by reading your posts that you don't deserve it. Have fun getting anywhere in life.

You are just a whining baby.

Dude, shut the fuck up. And stop acting like such a child.

10/24/11
bears1208:
Will Hunting:

OP, I'm glad you didn't get a job in banking. I can tell just by reading your posts that you don't deserve it. Have fun getting anywhere in life.

You are just a whining baby.

Dude, shut the fuck up. And stop acting like such a child.

Yo internet tough guy. You're cooooooool

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

Although, I did also hear a guy hitting on some chick in line for a bar and said he's getting his mba/md from Harvard and he's going to be "mother fucking rich". Girl turned around and called him a dbag to her friends. It's these types of people IP is referring to...

Well, yes. I met one "Fred from Yale" during my SA program a couple years ago. Kinda sealed my impressions of the school. And I made a friend when a lady walked up to him and introduced herself as "Dhivya from Stoneybrook" to the laughter of a number of interns.

10/24/11

I wouldn't want someone hiring you and then seeing how much of a baby you are and then having them get a bad impression of Cornell.

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

Also, I will never have to work with you. Automatically makes my life better

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

10/24/11

UBS is still recruiting for sure lol

If you're desperate, PM me your resume and I'll FW it to the staffer that I know

10/25/11
Solidarity:

UBS is still recruiting for sure lol

If you're desperate, PM me your resume and I'll FW it to the staffer that I know

Wait, is this a joke?

I am desperate at this point, and I have a contact there, but he told me like in September they were still waiting on summers. I figured with all the stuff going on UBS wouldn't be recruiting at all regardless after that. Should I email him again now? Or you were joking right?

10/24/11

All those banks came to your school?

I hate you all....

I think that we are all clinging to a great many piano tops...

10/24/11
ekimlacks:

All those banks came to your school?

I hate you all....

Just because a bank appears on your college's job postings website doesn't mean that they are necessarily hiring or hiring that many, or even interviewing in some cases. For example, one recruiter straight up told me that they were doing 28 interviews, and looking to hire 1-2 analysts from my school.

That's actually a pretty decent ratio, considering every superday (5) I went to this year, I've been the only kid from my school there.

10/24/11

This has to be the dumbest thread I've seen on WSO yet.

Moderators please lock this thread.

10/24/11

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

No....I can see that. Not necessarily smarter, but definitely able to compete with the top 50 from Harvard. I don't see why not...??

And wow...people are very sensitive about where they went/go to school. Internet fights are always a no no.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

are you kidding me? do you know anything about standard deviations and sample selection? lol

if you use standardized testing as a proxy measure for "intelligence", I guarantee that the top 50 students at Berk > top 50 students at Havard

10/25/11
Solidarity:
LeoMessi:

"The top 50 students at Berkeley out of a class of 10K are a heckuvalot smarter and more driven than the top 50/1000 at Harvard."

Get real, IP.....This has got to be a joke.

are you kidding me? do you know anything about standard deviations and sample selection? lol

if you use standardized testing as a proxy measure for "intelligence", I guarantee that the top 50 students at Berk > top 50 students at Havard

I don't think you have any ability to comprehend how intelligent the top 50 students at Harvard are.

If the top 50 students at Berkeley were so amazing, most of them would be at Harvard.

10/24/11

Non-targets throwing monkey shit at me because their egos are bruised. What, do you really think most of you can compete with the top kids at targets? No, you cant. Some of you definitely can--and some of you can even outpace the top kids at targets--but the vast majority of you are not as good, which is why banks don't recruit at your schools. The concentration of top talent at targets blows non-targets out of the water.

I'm convinced that the non-targets who get into front office roles at the bulge brackets deserve it, and those who don't wouldn't have made it coming from a target either. Non-targets have no idea how competitive OCR is at targets. Little factoid: most target students get jobs from sources outside OCR. Surprised? What that means is that only the top students at targets get jobs through OCR. If you weren't admitted to a target, you would not be the beneficiary of OCR. If you were but couldn't go, I'm sorry, but I'm firmly convinced that if you have the smarts, you will break in, even if you do have to work harder than you would have had to work at a target.

10/24/11
LeoMessi:

Non-targets throwing monkey shit at me because their egos are bruised. What, do you really think most of you can compete with the top kids at targets? No, you cant. Some of you definitely can--and some of you can even outpace the top kids at targets--but the vast majority of you are not as good, which is why banks don't recruit at your schools. The concentration of top talent at targets blows non-targets out of the water.

I'm convinced that the non-targets who get into front office roles at the bulge brackets deserve it, and those who don't wouldn't have made it coming from a target either. Non-targets have no idea how competitive OCR is at targets. Little factoid: most target students get jobs from sources outside OCR. Surprised? What that means is that only the top students at targets get jobs through OCR. If you weren't admitted to a target, you would not be the beneficiary of OCR. If you were but couldn't go, I'm sorry, but I'm firmly convinced that if you have the smarts, you will break in, even if you do have to work harder than you would have had to work at a target.

making a lot of generalizations. I both agree and disagree with some of your points.

When you talk about top talent at a target vs nontarget, it really depends on what kind of nontarget you're talking about. I believe top talent @ Illinois can compete with top talent at targets. We have some pretty smart people...even in our business program. Now schools like Baruch (sorry guys - just my experience with Baruch students) then yes...maybe/probably.

Most target students may get jobs from outside OCR, but you have to understand that recruiting at a target is SUBSTANTIALLY greater than at a nontarget. More firms recruit AND take more students. Your chances are extremely higher PLUS targets have more alumni on the street, thus making it easier to get a job/break in outside of OCR.

Just a couple of things I wanted to point out. And yes, I do agree when you say if you have the smarts and are willing to make the sacrifices, you will break in.

10/25/11

Using standardized testing is stupid. Both are probably 2390 or 2400. But realistically, the top 50 at Harvard are IMO winners, Intel finalists, national debate champions, etc. Berkeley isn't home to that kind of talent.

Anyway this is a stupid argument. My point has already been made: smart kids from non-targets will still find a way to get in. Dumb kids from non-targets won't get in, and they wouldn't have gotten in if they had attended a target.

I'm done responding now

10/25/11

we're not talking about SAT ya artard

ARML / USAMO / S-B IQ

I agree with your points but that statemenet was retarded

10/25/11

Fine, use whichever standardized tests you want to use. I would argue that the top 50 Harvard students would outperform the top 50 Berkeley students on those tests, but I guess that's just an irreconcilable difference of opinion.

The larger point--and the only important one--still stands. By the way, check your PMs please.

10/25/11

I got into a HF with a 3.3 from a target, so anything is possible if you continue networking.

10/25/11

push your contact, a lot of their summers didn't want to take the return offer from what I heard--but this is just for one group... and regional offices are also recruiting on an ad hoc basis (Houston specifically, but they may be filled by now)

and lol just b/c of this circle jerk, I checked... Harvard's 25-75% SAT math range doesn't even hit 800 haha... shamed by Harvey Mudd

10/25/11
Solidarity:

push your contact, a lot of their summers didn't want to take the return offer from what I heard--but this is just for one group... and regional offices are also recruiting on an ad hoc basis (Houston specifically, but they may be filled by now)

and lol just b/c of this circle jerk, I checked... Harvard's 25-75% SAT math range doesn't even hit 800 haha... shamed by Harvey Mudd

How about nyc?

10/25/11

Leo you're romanticizing the target student that breaks in as someone that's always harder working, smarter or talented when that's definitely not true. There are target students that aren't always qualified that break in, it was never strictly merit based.

Second, brand name and alumni base make a huge difference so XYZ firm is probably going to be more likely to hire their kids from their school vs. no-name non-target.

Third, you're still not addressing the fact that there is OCR at targets, it's what makes them a target. Whether or not a non-target would have the same 'chance' at securing a 1st round interview at a target doesn't even matter b/c it's all hypothetical. Do stop saying it's hard or no one realizes how hard it is, breaking into IBD is hard and everyone knows it both target/non-target. But you can bust your ass at a non-target, have 2-3 connections fall through and you're back at square one. At a target you can bust your ass and have those connections, but also have OCR and still make it to a 1st round. So I'm not talking about the morons I may or may not go to school with, I'm talking about the guys that would/should have a shot that aren't getting one b/c they don't have OCR. The playing field isn't level so stop trying to say it is.

'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'

10/25/11

Do people actually think that going to a target impressive? Or is working at an entry level banking position is somehow great? I did both. Oh, and I had high SAT scores and a high GPA. And my school had a lower acceptance ratio than most of the "top-targets."

Saying "a school in Boston" or a "school in the Bay area" is a thinly veiled attempt at eliciting the next question "which school." Just say what school you went to rather than feign humility.

And for goodness sake, getting into finance at the entry level is NOT impressive. IP would say the same. He is just as unimpressed with his job and relatively low position as he is with his alma mater or someone who went to Harvard.

There are more important things in life and better career paths.

I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.

10/25/11

Ouch Mr Douche. But yes. There are much better things to do with your life.

The problem with life is that you have to pick something to worship. Most folks on Wall Street worship money and power. And they aren't very good gods. They don't keep their promises and they demand a dozen hours a day for decades of your life. Suddenly you are old and would give the entire pile of cash you made just to get half your time back. Other folks worship different stuff that revolves around the self, and they are all just as bad. People wind up the same- wishing they could get that time back.

The funny thing is that the jesuits, franciscans, and buddhist monks don't have this problem when they hit 40. You have to figure out what you can depend on in life and what the real priority is. It's probably something bigger than you.

I just don't get it. It's impossible to go to an Eastern liberal arts school without reading Death of a Salesman, Great Expectations, Our Town, or Walden. Money and success may be nice to have, but you have to be delusional to think they are a priority. Us state school engineers can be forgiven to an extent since our required reading was mostly math books and maybe a thousand year old book or two if we were religious. But there's no point in spending an extra hundred grand on a liberal arts school if it doesn't help you.

10/25/11

Isn't the answer that the only things you can count on in life ate death and taxes?

10/25/11

And The Northwestern Mutual Insurance Group.

10/25/11

"Call me crazy but the fact that I have 500 posts on this site (not even counting the 400+ on my other account that I don't use) means I know alot more than you. "

wow

10/25/11

My personal experience is that the one guy who went to Yale from our school had his psychologist Dad diagnose him with ADD and got extended time on every exam. Daddy was also a headcase and got into a number of political battles about sports which included a slugfest with a coach at a little league game. A kid who got into Princeton got into a fight with a coach about relay placements at state and eventually had to switch schools after Mom and Dad gave the coach a nasty T-shirt in front of 50 members and parents on the team. He claimed the school "had a really good math program" as he was leaving, which we all found hilarious.

Not going to say the kids are liars or screwed up, but there are a lot of headcase parents out there. If we did a psychological screening on H/Y/P parents, my hunch is a good 10-20% of them would require commitment or at least some SERIOUS outpatient work. I honestly felt bad for the two going to Yale and Princeton. I'll take SANE parents with money for in-state tuition, thank you.

Thank God you don't have to deal with that to be successful on Wall Street. And thank God success and money are not foundational to our purpose in life.

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:

My personal experience is that the one guy who went to Yale from our school had his psychologist Dad diagnose him with ADD and got extended time on every exam. Daddy was also a headcase and got into a number of political battles about sports which included a slugfest with a coach at a little league game. A kid who got into Princeton got into a fight with a coach about relay placements at state and eventually had to switch schools after Mom and Dad gave the coach a nasty T-shirt in front of 50 members and parents on the team. He claimed the school "had a really good math program" as he was leaving, which we all found hilarious.

Not going to say the kids are liars or screwed up, but there are a lot of headcase parents out there. If we did a psychological screening on H/Y/P parents, my hunch is a good 10-20% of them would require commitment or at least some SERIOUS outpatient work. I honestly felt bad for the two going to Yale and Princeton. I'll take SANE parents with money for in-state tuition, thank you.

Thank God you don't have to deal with that to be successful on Wall Street. And thank God success and money are not foundational to our purpose in life.

LMAO. This is so goddamned true.

You want even worse than that? I went to one of those " elite small liberal arts schools." Those kids are the same stock as the nuttiest of the ivy leaguers but dumber. And usually more fucked up on drugs. That's where the black sheep that couldn't even get into Brown go.

10/25/11

Well, the kids who went were a little screwy and I could see how they might eventually turn into their parents, but nearly all of the shenanigans came from the adults. How do you tell your Dad not to start a lobbying campaign to get the coach fired so you can be a starter? How do you tell your parents not to sue the school because an AP US History teacher changed the final exam at the last minute? Some of these parents brought new meaning to the term "functional psychopathy", and the kids were almost as much the victims of the parents as the teachers, coaches, and administrators. The Princeton kid referenced above was known as "T-shirt guy" throughout the school for his last two months, and he was totalled mortified of what his parents had done all the while also trying to downplay it. Awkward situation trying to defend parents you love for doing something indefensible.

One of these guys married the daughter of a disgraced politician a few years ago. PPKs (Psycho-parented kids) seem to attract one another. Let's hope they've learned from their parents and can bring up healthier kids.

Also, there were a lot of kids that went to strong schools like MIT, Wharton, and Stanford who had sane parents and were relatively sane themselves. And most of the kids who wound up at the more normal Ivies like UPenn and Cornell were pretty chill and had pretty chill parents, though there were still a few nutjobs out there.

A lot of the stuff that went on was much bigger than the kids involved and it wasn't applicable everywhere. But the most memorable fiascos at my high school were driven by crazed parents desperately trying to get their kids into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just like Mommy or Daddy at any ethical, moral, or financial cost.

To the public at large- this is how many of the people who now run our government and financial system were created. And you thought The Manchurian Candidate was a silly fairy tale devoid of reality. Scared yet?

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Well, the kids who went were a little screwy and I could see how they might eventually turn into their parents, but nearly all of the shenanigans came from the adults. How do you tell your Dad not to start a lobbying campaign to get the coach fired so you can be a starter? How do you tell your parents not to sue the school because an AP US History teacher changed the final exam at the last minute? Some of these parents brought new meaning to the term "functional psychopathy", and the kids were almost as much the victims of the parents as the teachers, coaches, and administrators. The Princeton kid referenced above was known as "T-shirt guy" throughout the school for his last two months, and he was totalled mortified of what his parents had done all the while also trying to downplay it. Awkward situation trying to defend parents you love for doing something indefensible.

One of these guys married the daughter of a disgraced politician a few years ago. PPKs (Psycho-parented kids) seem to attract one another. Let's hope they've learned from their parents and can bring up healthier kids.

Also, there were a lot of kids that went to strong schools like MIT, Wharton, and Stanford who had sane parents and were relatively sane themselves. And most of the kids who wound up at the more normal Ivies like UPenn and Cornell were pretty chill and had pretty chill parents, though there were still a few nutjobs out there.

A lot of the stuff that went on was much bigger than the kids involved and it wasn't applicable everywhere. But the most memorable fiascos at my high school were driven by crazed parents desperately trying to get their kids into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just like Mommy or Daddy at any ethical, moral, or financial cost.

To the public at large- this is how many of the people who now run our government and financial system were created. And you thought The Manchurian Candidate was a silly fairy tale devoid of reality. Scared yet?

I don't know why this thread is evolving into discussions of schools.

People in the real world don't really care which school one went to. People could care less that you went to Harvard or a State U. That said, I know several people at Harvard right now who are struggling to make it to a first round interview from IBD. And, I know tons of people at Cornell who couldn't cut it in IBD. (myself included...)

I think the credited move is to go into accounting. I know many, many kids from second, third tier state schools (not even state flagship) who got nice cushy jobs at Big4, with minimal debt while they partied their high school and college years. I was literally shocked that my friend who graduated dead last in our high school with 22 on ACT went to a college that I've never heard of, he managed to get a job at PwC audit with 55k + bonus, after he sported a 3.5 GPA at his laughable directional state college.

My cousin graduated with 3.4 GPA in Econ from Princeton 2 years ago, but couldn't get any job out of OCR. He ultimately went to law school because he could not get any job at all, coming from Princeton. If one tries to attend an Ivy with the specific intent of scoring a banking job, I have some bad news for you: it may not be worth the debt, all the trouble, and the social sacrifices you are about to incur for 'marginally' better shot at a banking job. And, as some other posters indicated, OCR at target is competitive as shit. Even if some random dude with 24 ACT gets lucky and goes to Princeton, I doubt he will score a banking job just because he is at target.

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

10/25/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
IlliniProgrammer:

Well, the kids who went were a little screwy and I could see how they might eventually turn into their parents, but nearly all of the shenanigans came from the adults. How do you tell your Dad not to start a lobbying campaign to get the coach fired so you can be a starter? How do you tell your parents not to sue the school because an AP US History teacher changed the final exam at the last minute? Some of these parents brought new meaning to the term "functional psychopathy", and the kids were almost as much the victims of the parents as the teachers, coaches, and administrators. The Princeton kid referenced above was known as "T-shirt guy" throughout the school for his last two months, and he was totalled mortified of what his parents had done all the while also trying to downplay it. Awkward situation trying to defend parents you love for doing something indefensible.

One of these guys married the daughter of a disgraced politician a few years ago. PPKs (Psycho-parented kids) seem to attract one another. Let's hope they've learned from their parents and can bring up healthier kids.

Also, there were a lot of kids that went to strong schools like MIT, Wharton, and Stanford who had sane parents and were relatively sane themselves. And most of the kids who wound up at the more normal Ivies like UPenn and Cornell were pretty chill and had pretty chill parents, though there were still a few nutjobs out there.

A lot of the stuff that went on was much bigger than the kids involved and it wasn't applicable everywhere. But the most memorable fiascos at my high school were driven by crazed parents desperately trying to get their kids into Harvard, Yale, and Princeton just like Mommy or Daddy at any ethical, moral, or financial cost.

To the public at large- this is how many of the people who now run our government and financial system were created. And you thought The Manchurian Candidate was a silly fairy tale devoid of reality. Scared yet?

I don't know why this thread is evolving into discussions of schools.

People in the real world don't really care which school one went to. People could care less that you went to Harvard or a State U. That said, I know several people at Harvard right now who are struggling to make it to a first round interview from IBD. And, I know tons of people at Cornell who couldn't cut it in IBD. (myself included...)

I think the credited move is to go into accounting. I know many, many kids from second, third tier state schools (not even state flagship) who got nice cushy jobs at Big4, with minimal debt while they partied their high school and college years. I was literally shocked that my friend who graduated dead last in our high school with 22 on ACT went to a college that I've never heard of, he managed to get a job at PwC audit with 55k + bonus, after he sported a 3.5 GPA at his laughable directional state college.

My cousin graduated with 3.4 GPA in Econ from Princeton 2 years ago, but couldn't get any job out of OCR. He ultimately went to law school because he could not get any job at all, coming from Princeton. If one tries to attend an Ivy with the specific intent of scoring a banking job, I have some bad news for you: it may not be worth the debt, all the trouble, and the social sacrifices you are about to incur for 'marginally' better shot at a banking job. And, as some other posters indicated, OCR at target is competitive as shit. Even if some random dude with 24 ACT gets lucky and goes to Princeton, I doubt he will score a banking job just because he is at target.

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

couldn't agree more

10/25/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

Fuck yeah, we have decent recruiting and we party hard! But seriously, UIUC is definitely a semi-target...I got first round interviews with a 3.4-3.5 GPA even without prior banking experience...this was last semester though. (btw, they were 2 top BBs, 1 solid MM, and few boutiques)

10/25/11
RonaldBacon:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

And, IllinoiProgrammer: I am not sure why you are saying U of I is non-target. I have a lot of friends at U of I and they told me banks from Chicago recruit there heavily. In hindsight, I wish I had gone to U of I since I was in-state for U of I. I would have partied with much hotter girls there, watch some legit sports, have a much easier time pulling 3.7+ GPA, get decent recruiting from banks in Chicago, and my savings account would be much fatter now.

Fuck yeah, we have decent recruiting and we party hard! But seriously, UIUC is definitely a semi-target...I got first round interviews with a 3.4-3.5 GPA even without prior banking experience...this was last semester though. (btw, they were 2 top BBs, 1 solid MM, and few boutiques)

Took a semester off of school to live somewhere warm. Decided to go into IBD my 4th year. Accepted FT offer from the summer internship before school started. Crusin' the victory lap now.
-State School, College lives here

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

10/25/11

IP:

Why are you even languishing in finance? Go get a PhD for fun or start your own thing. That's my life and it makes it easy to make fun of bankers (associates and other people at the entry level) when you see them in person. They literally will have nothing to brag about, whether it's education or money or responsibility and you can be oh so condescending to them when they start to brag. I've started a few companies now, 1 in HS, 1 in college, 1 before grad school and 1 after. All four have been successes. It's really not hard and you'd be far more successful than me with your maturity, intellectual curiosity, aptitude, tact, and level-headedness.

Stanford was not like this. Many of the people I spent time with learned to read well and took advanced math at a young age, so they didn't really worry much in middle school and high school. They just enjoyed learning and were smart enough not to have to work from 6:00-1:00 with undue pressure like this somebody who's impressed with his introductory target degree and mediocre consulting/finance job.

But, of course, I did get rejected from Harvard. So I must suck.

I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.

10/25/11
MrDouche:

IP:

Why are you even languishing in finance? Go get a PhD for fun or start your own thing. That's my life and it makes it easy to make fun of bankers (associates and other people at the entry level) when you see them in person. They literally will have nothing to brag about, whether it's education or money or responsibility and you can be oh so condescending to them when they start to brag. I've started a few companies now, 1 in HS, 1 in college, 1 before grad school and 1 after. All four have been successes. It's really not hard and you'd be far more successful than me with your maturity, intellectual curiosity, aptitude, tact, and level-headedness.

Stanford was not like this. Many of the people I spent time with learned to read well and took advanced math at a young age, so they didn't really worry much in middle school and high school. They just enjoyed learning and were smart enough not to have to work from 6:00-1:00 with undue pressure like this somebody who's impressed with his introductory target degree and mediocre consulting/finance job.

But, of course, I did get rejected from Harvard. So I must suck.

Damn. It is tough being part of the so stupid that I have to work really hard to achieve anything group.

10/25/11

yeah maybe a little more work ethic would have brought the fat envelope from harvard for self declared genius

10/25/11

It's really not hard and you'd be far more successful than me with your maturity, intellectual curiosity, aptitude, tact, and level-headedness.

Haha, I started a business in high school selling web hosting- and it made enough to pay me a little more than minimum wage for 10-20 hours/week, but it was tough work and I wouldn't call it more than a modest success.

The world has a lot of challenges revolving around resources and energy over the next 30 years. I think I have something that can help with that, but it's going to cost half my savings to get to a prototype and tens of millions to implement. It's also a clunky and unsexy system and you can't patent an idea. I guess I suffer the bias of having worked in an extremely competitive and commoditized market. You as an individual are not an effective barrier to entry. You need patents or hundreds of millions in cash to build the barrier.

10/25/11

New thread title: the preftigious v. Too smart to care about preftige

10/25/11

Citi considers UIUC a target. GS sends recruiters out and takes 1-2 kids every year, but they send recruiters just about everywhere. Then there's RW Baird and William Blair as well as a number of hedge funds and prop shops. We also used to get Lehman and Merrill recruiters in Engineering.

It's clearly a respectable school, and if it got the same consideration from the BBs that NYU and Penn got, it would be a target school for Accy, Actuarial Science, Math, Physics, and Engineering.

Why are we talking about this anyways?

10/25/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Citi considers UIUC a target. GS sends recruiters out and takes 1-2 kids every year, but they send recruiters just about everywhere. Then there's RW Baird and William Blair as well as a number of hedge funds and prop shops. We also used to get Lehman and Merrill recruiters in Engineering.

It's clearly a respectable school, and if it got the same consideration from the BBs that NYU and Penn got, it would be a target school for Accy, Actuarial Science, Math, Physics, and Engineering.

Why are we talking about this anyways?

We still get BAML. Also, DB and Lazard both target UIUC as well. We have a couple going to Greenhill this year too.

10/26/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Citi considers UIUC a target. GS sends recruiters out and takes 1-2 kids every year, but they send recruiters just about everywhere. Then there's RW Baird and William Blair as well as a number of hedge funds and prop shops. We also used to get Lehman and Merrill recruiters in Engineering.

It's clearly a respectable school, and if it got the same consideration from the BBs that NYU and Penn got, it would be a target school for Accy, Actuarial Science, Math, Physics, and Engineering.

Why are we talking about this anyways?

I just went through IBD recruiting in Chicago, and was definitely impressed by the presence of UIUC alums/candidates at the banks I interviewed at. In addition to the banks that you listed, Lazard Chicago's restructuring group has a whole lot of UIUC alums, and on my superday, there were 3 UIUC kids there. Additionally, Lincoln International recruits out of there (don't know how heavily), as does BMO and a number of other MM midwestern banks.

I go to a midwestern target and I'm pretty sure FT recruiting this year was probably stronger at UIUC than at my school; out of the 5 superdays I went to, I was the only student from my school at all of them. However, for SA recruiting, I'd wager that more banks probably came to my school, so there's that.

In any case, with regard to the target vs. semitarget vs nontarget argument, I definitely think that going to a target helps in terms of a larger alumni network in finance, but that being said, a competitive applicant at my school would probably be a competitive applicant at say, UIUC, but I'm sure the opposite would be true as well.

10/25/11

It's funny applying to colleges in high school everyone cared where people got in and what type of school it was. Now, as I'm in college and getting older, no one gives a shit.

Edit- but it does suck going to a "second tier" school.... you get plenty of the bitter top Ivy rejects.

10/25/11
blackrainn:

It's funny applying to colleges in high school everyone cared where people got in and what type of school it was. Now, as I'm in college and getting older, no one gives a shit.

Edit- but it does suck going to a "second tier" school.... you get plenty of the bitter top Ivy rejects.

Its never really where you go, but what you do that matters...

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

10/25/11
illiniPride:
blackrainn:

It's funny applying to colleges in high school everyone cared where people got in and what type of school it was. Now, as I'm in college and getting older, no one gives a shit.

Edit- but it does suck going to a "second tier" school.... you get plenty of the bitter top Ivy rejects.

Its never really where you go, but what you do that matters...

Plus the girls at these "second tier" schools are waaay hotter...and yes, that actually is a huge factor.

10/25/11
RonaldBacon:
illiniPride:
blackrainn:

It's funny applying to colleges in high school everyone cared where people got in and what type of school it was. Now, as I'm in college and getting older, no one gives a shit.

Edit- but it does suck going to a "second tier" school.... you get plenty of the bitter top Ivy rejects.

Its never really where you go, but what you do that matters...

Plus the girls at these "second tier" schools are waaay hotter...and yes, that actually is a huge factor.

Hey, U of I has some fine looking chicks... I visited U of I last year because of my high school friends. (I've visited U of I many times before, too) At many frat parties that I went on, I could easily spot many 8s and 9s no problem. I actually thought that there were many hot girls working out at gym, too. To be honest, I've never been to a place with such a high concentration of hot girls before my life. (my high school girls were ok, girls at Cornell are a bunch of 2s and 3s) Then, I came back to Cornell and within a day, I said "Fuck this place."

10/26/11

sigh I read this thread hoping to find useful information for myself about the situation at targets and instead it's built of fail...

"I did it for me...I liked it...I was good at it. And I was really... I was alive."

10/26/11

Recently sat in on a talk from an MD for Credit Suisse. He said that because of new government regulation and adjustments in business practices hiring will of course be a little less as well as compensation.

But he also said you shouldn't worry, because as the industry goes through these changes companies will need new ways of making money that will work well under the new set of rules - and that means hiring more fresh, young grads.

Also, he said asset management and investments will be nice industries for new grads to make a mark on.

make of this what you will

10/27/11

Couple points I wanted to add:

1) In my experience I've found that ivy leaguers in general tend to be more thoughtful and polished than state schoolers, though on the flipside math/science/engineering majors tend to be less obnoxious than athletes/frat guys...just a sweeping generalization, take it as you will.

2) No way that the top 50 students at Berkeley are smarter than the top 50 at Harvard, Princeton, or MIT. I'd love to see any proof on that. That really doesn't make sense to me - the top guys at Harvard are probably the brightest in the world, let alone the US. Mind boggling intelligence to the likes of international olympiad winners, etc. That doesn't change just because Berkeley has a larger student body.

3) People who do engineering are those who really enjoy pain and abuse. I know from experience...

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/27/11

Maybe, but they have to compete against other schools like Oxford, IIT, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Technische Universitat Munchen, several others in China, South Africa, and South America, New South Wales, etc, etc. Harvard has no monopoly status, and sure, it gets some pretty bright cookies, but it has to share.

Berkeley doesn't have to compete. It is the flagship state school and gets every thrifty middle-class family who doesn't qualify for student aid out of the ~60 million people in the state of California. The best kids at Berkeley never had the opportunity to go to Harvard because they didn't have the money, and this is out of a class of thousands and thousands of students selected out of millions of middle-class kids who got no aid and don't have $250K to go to school.

Perhaps most importantly, being top 50 at Berkeley gives us more recent information about your performance than being top 50 at Harvard. Obviously you have probably TA'd a 400+ level PhD course, worked on some pretty incredible research, had some amazing leadership experience, all while getting a 4.0 GPA. The bottom half of the top 50 at Harvard hasn't had the same opportunity to pull all of that off simply based on ratios of other students and professors to their size. Maybe they are still capable of pulling off what they did in high school when they had parents to push them. Maybe they're not. The Berkeley kids have more recent and relevant information about their success as adults without parents looking over their shoulders.

I'm not sure it matters that much who's more polished. I remember watching Caddyshack when I was 14 and seeing Rodney Dangerfield driving over the golf course, crashing into boats, and telling jokes while Judge Smails was trying to swing, and telling myself, "That's my kinda guy." The trading floor is FILLED with Rodney Dangerfields and they are hardly polished excepting some guys in sales. It's really a personality kinda thing, and I think those who reject conformity take joy in having a few rough edges.

10/27/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Berkeley doesn't have to compete. It is the flagship state school and gets every thrifty middle-class family who doesn't qualify for student aid out of the ~60 million people in the state of California. The best kids at Berkeley never had the opportunity to go to Harvard because they didn't have the money, and this is out of a class of thousands and thousands of students selected out of millions of middle-class kids who got no aid and don't have $250K to go to school.

Firstly, it's not obvious to me that Berkeley is the "best" state school - Michigan is great too for instance, and so is UIUC for that matter... But let's assume Berkeley is the best state school. You're basically saying that the best of population X is better than the best of population Y, where X = students in the state of California who can't afford private college tuition (or didn't get aid), and Y = students all over the world who can afford private college tuition (or did get aid) and choose to go to Harvard vs similar schools (and for the record, I don't think a school like IIT gets many students from outside India or the surrounding region, and I bet the same goes for schools in China, etc). I really find all this hard to believe. You're essentially comparing the state of California to the whole world, and using the numbers aspect to make the point (using flat 50 people instead of a percentage, since Berkeley has so many more people). And if your view is biased towards math/science/engineering (which is technically a certain kind of intelligence), compare Berkeley to MIT or Princeton. I just don't see it. I do agree with your point about parents though - parents of ivy leauge kids are much more likely to be batshit crazy.

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/27/11
Going Concern:

I do agree with your point about parents though - parents of ivy leauge kids are much more likely to be batshit crazy.

I remember when I visited Princeton there was one Asian dude whose father kept smacking him to stand up straight and pushing him towards the tour guide. The kid couldn't even check out the place. Needless to say, my dad and I were pretty speechless.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

10/27/11
Going Concern:

Firstly, it's not obvious to me that Berkeley is the "best" state school - Michigan is great too for instance, and so is UIUC for that matter... But let's assume Berkeley is the best state school. You're basically saying that the best of population X is better than the best of population Y, where X = students in the state of California who can't afford private college tuition (or didn't get aid), and Y = students all over the world who can afford private college tuition (or did get aid) and choose to go to Harvard vs similar schools (and for the record, I don't think a school like IIT gets many students from outside India or the surrounding region, and I bet the same goes for schools in China, etc). I really find all this hard to believe. You're essentially comparing the state of California to the whole world, and using the numbers aspect to make the point (using flat 50 people instead of a percentage, since Berkeley has so many more people). And if your view is biased towards math/science/engineering (which is technically a certain kind of intelligence), compare Berkeley to MIT or Princeton. I just don't see it. I do agree with your point about parents though - parents of ivy leauge kids are much more likely to be batshit crazy.

Cornell is clearly the best state school

10/28/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Maybe, but they have to compete against other schools like Oxford, IIT, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Technische Universitat Munchen, several others in China, South Africa, and South America, New South Wales, etc, etc. Harvard has no monopoly status, and sure, it gets some pretty bright cookies, but it has to share.

Berkeley doesn't have to compete. It is the flagship state school and gets every thrifty middle-class family who doesn't qualify for student aid out of the ~60 million people in the state of California. The best kids at Berkeley never had the opportunity to go to Harvard because they didn't have the money, and this is out of a class of thousands and thousands of students selected out of millions of middle-class kids who got no aid and don't have $250K to go to school.

Perhaps most importantly, being top 50 at Berkeley gives us more recent information about your performance than being top 50 at Harvard. Obviously you have probably TA'd a 400+ level PhD course, worked on some pretty incredible research, had some amazing leadership experience, all while getting a 4.0 GPA. The bottom half of the top 50 at Harvard hasn't had the same opportunity to pull all of that off simply based on ratios of other students and professors to their size. Maybe they are still capable of pulling off what they did in high school when they had parents to push them. Maybe they're not. The Berkeley kids have more recent and relevant information about their success as adults without parents looking over their shoulders.

I'm not sure it matters that much who's more polished. I remember watching Caddyshack when I was 14 and seeing Rodney Dangerfield driving over the golf course, crashing into boats, and telling jokes while Judge Smails was trying to swing, and telling myself, "That's my kinda guy." The trading floor is FILLED with Rodney Dangerfields and they are hardly polished excepting some guys in sales. It's really a personality kinda thing, and I think those who reject conformity take joy in having a few rough edges.

I have a lot of respect for berkeley undergrad. My best friend went there, and I know some really smart kids who went there. But the top 50 at harvard is pretty fucking impressive, so your argument is really stretching it. Do I think the top 10% at berkeley is better than the average student at harvard? Yeah most likely. But the top students at harvard undergrad are literally the best and the brightest that this country has to offer.

Illini, enough with the ivy bashing. You're successful in your own right and don't need to discuss this. You're starting to sound like those other insecure midwestern Big 10 alums I know in Chicago who constantly justify their school by saying "oh the ivies are overrated, at least my college had hot girls and a good football team."

10/27/11

^ nailed it. SB for you.

10/27/11

I am hearing that at wharton undergrad this year, blackstone got like 300 resumes for the PE analyst job and are planning on extending like 2 or 3 offers. Similar numbers for gs pia, gs ssg, apollo, citadel, etc.

10/27/11

Firstly, it's not obvious to me that Berkeley is the "best" state school - Michigan is great too for instance.

Of course. I chose Berkeley because it's the flagship state school (along with UCLA) in one of the largest states in the country. Given California's funding for postsecondary education and the size of the population eligible for in-state tuition, it's not a surprise that Berkeley is one of the public Ivies.

I really find all this hard to believe. You're essentially comparing the state of California to the whole world, and using the numbers aspect to make the point (using flat 50 people instead of a percentage, since Berkeley has so many more people).

Of course, but a majority of students at Harvard are from the US. And California holds 15% of the country's population. But Harvard has to compete against Princeton and Yale not to mention Stanford, MIT, Wharton, Carnegie-Mellon, and Chicago, and it's going to have a lot of difficulty attracting students from families that post six figure incomes but don't want to spend $250K on their kids college educations.

Berkeley is a target and Harvard is a target. If you are California resident, the real question for you is whether you'd prefer to spend $20K/year on school or $60K. So my hunch is that the top 50 students out of 10000 at Berkeley are going to be a lot stronger than the top 50 out of 1000 at Harvard. And that's proven generally correct over the past three years as Harvard's been deemphasized in recruiting while schools like Berkeley, Michigan, Wisconsin, UVA, Ga. Tech, and Minnesota have enjoyed more recruiting.

10/27/11
IlliniProgrammer:

But Harvard has to compete against Princeton and Yale not to mention Stanford, MIT, Wharton, Carnegie-Mellon, and Chicago, and it's going to have a lot of difficulty attracting students from families that post six figure incomes but don't want to spend $250K on their kids college educations.

I went to a private school, and I personally knew people who were going there practically free. These kinds of schools have such large endowments and as far as I know make a concerted effort from a financial aid perspective to charge people how much they can afford. I remember reading a while ago of a homeless girl who went to Harvard. What you're really referring to isn't the families who can't afford it at all (because they will get aid), but rather a certain region in the middle that's a gray area in the sense that they probably could afford it after stretching savings, taking loans etc., but simply don't want to bear the financial burden. That's a smaller segment than people who really can't afford it, just being clear on that.

Also, in general recruiting in the finance world is not a great process at all. A lot of it is based on nepotism or some other forms of connection, which might be more blatant for alumni of schools that aren't traditional targets (because there are less of them on the street), which may explain why some state schools and such have gotten more recruiting.

Firms should hire more math/physics/engineering majors from Berkeley, absolutely. I'm sure many of them are very smart. I just don't think they're necessarily smarter than MIT or Harvard kids, because ultimately if they valued education above all else they would find a way to get there.

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/27/11
Going Concern:

I went to a private school, and I personally knew people who were going there practically free. These kinds of schools have such large endowments and as far as I know make a concerted effort from a financial aid perspective to charge people how much they can afford. I remember reading a while ago of a homeless girl who went to Harvard. What you're really referring to isn't the families who can't afford it at all (because they will get aid), but rather a certain region in the middle that's a gray area in the sense that they probably could afford it after stretching savings, taking loans etc., but simply don't want to bear the financial burden. That's a smaller segment than people who really can't afford it, just being clear on that.

+1 Nailed it with that

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

10/27/11
illiniPride:
Going Concern:

I went to a private school, and I personally knew people who were going there practically free. These kinds of schools have such large endowments and as far as I know make a concerted effort from a financial aid perspective to charge people how much they can afford. I remember reading a while ago of a homeless girl who went to Harvard. What you're really referring to isn't the families who can't afford it at all (because they will get aid), but rather a certain region in the middle that's a gray area in the sense that they probably could afford it after stretching savings, taking loans etc., but simply don't want to bear the financial burden. That's a smaller segment than people who really can't afford it, just being clear on that.

+1 Nailed it with that

Also,

I attend Columbia for FREE. And so does practically a third of my entire class. More than 55% of the class receives SUBSTANTIAL aid.

Similar situation at all the top private schools.

You have to understand that in terms of private schools, there's Columbia, Harvard, Yale, UPenn, Duke, Princeton, etc, where students go into little or no debt by attending, because the schools are loaded, and because you have to be freaking brilliant (extremely talented in at least one way; be it the sciences, the arts, athletics or whatever) just to get accepted.

Also, what's this nonsense that I keep reading about "grade inflation" at the Ivies. There is none. It's freaking brutal here. I'm in a multi-variable calc class in which everyone (yes, every single student) received a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam. You need a 5 just to enrol in the class. Even the 'slackers' know their advanced calc concepts and problem set solutions by heart, and would be referred to as high achievers at any of the top publics.

You can diss the ivies all you want.. even refer to some as "lower Ivies" (seriously, LOL), like some people who own Toyotas refer to the M-Benz 430 as a "lower S-Class" but PLEASE at least get your facts right.

I can't believe I even replied to this ridiculous thread.

Moderators, please lock this thread. If the past 30 posts are any indication, any further posts will be of little use to the WSO community.

10/27/11
seedy underbelly:

Also, what's this nonsense that I keep reading about "grade inflation" at the Ivies. There is none.

I like your post, but that's definitely not true. There usually isn't grade inflation in math, science, engineering, economics, etc., but there is plenty of grade inflation in humanities. I once took an intermediate philosophy class where the professor apologized to all the students for not being able to give everyone an A. He literally gave a speech to that effect.

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/27/11
seedy underbelly:
illiniPride:
Going Concern:

I went to a private school, and I personally knew people who were going there practically free. These kinds of schools have such large endowments and as far as I know make a concerted effort from a financial aid perspective to charge people how much they can afford. I remember reading a while ago of a homeless girl who went to Harvard. What you're really referring to isn't the families who can't afford it at all (because they will get aid), but rather a certain region in the middle that's a gray area in the sense that they probably could afford it after stretching savings, taking loans etc., but simply don't want to bear the financial burden. That's a smaller segment than people who really can't afford it, just being clear on that.

+1 Nailed it with that

Also,

I attend Columbia for FREE. And so does practically a third of my entire class. More than 55% of the class receives SUBSTANTIAL aid.

Similar situation at all the top private schools.

You have to understand that in terms of private schools, there's Columbia, Harvard, Yale, UPenn, Duke, Princeton, etc, where students go into little or no debt by attending, because the schools are loaded, and because you have to be freaking brilliant (extremely talented in at least one way; be it the sciences, the arts, athletics or whatever) just to get accepted.

Also, what's this nonsense that I keep reading about "grade inflation" at the Ivies. There is none. It's freaking brutal here. I'm in a multi-variable calc class in which everyone (yes, every single student) received a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam. You need a 5 just to enrol in the class. Even the 'slackers' know their advanced calc concepts and problem set solutions by heart, and would be referred to as high achievers at any of the top publics.

You can diss the ivies all you want.. even refer to some as "lower Ivies" (seriously, LOL), like some people who own Toyotas refer to the M-Benz 430 as a "lower S-Class" but PLEASE at least get your facts right.

I can't believe I even replied to this ridiculous thread.

Moderators, please lock this thread. If the past 30 posts are any indication, any further posts will be of little use to the WSO community.

good points on aid and grade inflation -- if its smarter kids, should have higher gpa's.

10/28/11
seedy underbelly:
illiniPride:
Going Concern:

I went to a private school, and I personally knew people who were going there practically free. These kinds of schools have such large endowments and as far as I know make a concerted effort from a financial aid perspective to charge people how much they can afford. I remember reading a while ago of a homeless girl who went to Harvard. What you're really referring to isn't the families who can't afford it at all (because they will get aid), but rather a certain region in the middle that's a gray area in the sense that they probably could afford it after stretching savings, taking loans etc., but simply don't want to bear the financial burden. That's a smaller segment than people who really can't afford it, just being clear on that.

+1 Nailed it with that

Also,

I attend Columbia for FREE. And so does practically a third of my entire class. More than 55% of the class receives SUBSTANTIAL aid.

Similar situation at all the top private schools.

You have to understand that in terms of private schools, there's Columbia, Harvard, Yale, UPenn, Duke, Princeton, etc, where students go into little or no debt by attending, because the schools are loaded, and because you have to be freaking brilliant (extremely talented in at least one way; be it the sciences, the arts, athletics or whatever) just to get accepted.

Also, what's this nonsense that I keep reading about "grade inflation" at the Ivies. There is none. It's freaking brutal here. I'm in a multi-variable calc class in which everyone (yes, every single student) received a 5 on the AP Calc BC exam. You need a 5 just to enrol in the class. Even the 'slackers' know their advanced calc concepts and problem set solutions by heart, and would be referred to as high achievers at any of the top publics.

You can diss the ivies all you want.. even refer to some as "lower Ivies" (seriously, LOL), like some people who own Toyotas refer to the M-Benz 430 as a "lower S-Class" but PLEASE at least get your facts right.

I can't believe I even replied to this ridiculous thread.

Moderators, please lock this thread. If the past 30 posts are any indication, any further posts will be of little use to the WSO community.

Kid thinks he's super smart.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

10/28/11
Going Concern:

I went to a private school, and I personally knew people who were going there practically free. These kinds of schools have such large endowments and as far as I know make a concerted effort from a financial aid perspective to charge people how much they can afford.

Sure, but the fact is that they think you can afford a lot more than you generally can. If your family makes less than $100K/year, or if your family makes more than $300K/year, the Ivies start to make a lot of sense. But most California families are somewhere in between. Also, parents' age, thrift and savings gets penalized in the calculation. If you have your house paid off and money in a 401k or college savings fund, it means you can pay more.

So a lot of parents are telling their kids to go to school in-state. The tuition is fairly low and isn't contingent on scholarships and the like. And your parents don't have to take equity out of their house to pay for it.

I remember reading a while ago of a homeless girl who went to Harvard. What you're really referring to isn't the families who can't afford it at all (because they will get aid), but rather a certain region in the middle that's a gray area in the sense that they probably could afford it after stretching savings, taking loans etc., but simply don't want to bear the financial burden. That's a smaller segment than people who really can't afford it, just being clear on that.

If you or your parents have to take a loan out to pay for college, YOU CAN'T AFFORD PRIVATE SCHOOL, and the class of folks whom the colleges think *can* afford it but really can't is about 50% of the country. More importantly, it encompasses the vast majority of the class of families earning between $100 and $300K/year where you often see somewhat more driven personalities.

Also, in general recruiting in the finance world is not a great process at all. A lot of it is based on nepotism or some other forms of connection, which might be more blatant for alumni of schools that aren't traditional targets (because there are less of them on the street), which may explain why some state schools and such have gotten more recruiting.

My experience in trading has been that our non-target traders tend to take on more responsibilities sooner and perform better. Yes, there's a certain level of nepotism everywhere, but of those who didn't get in on that, the bar's a lot higher from non-target schools.

Firms should hire more math/physics/engineering majors from Berkeley, absolutely. I'm sure many of them are very smart. I just don't think they're necessarily smarter than MIT or Harvard kids, because ultimately if they valued education above all else they would find a way to get there.

There's 50 flagship state schools in the country and thousands of community colleges. I'm pretty darned sure there's kids out there who are a lot smarter than the best at MIT just based on the numbers.

10/27/11
IlliniProgrammer:

But Harvard has to compete against Princeton and Yale not to mention Stanford, MIT, Wharton, Carnegie-Mellon, and Chicago,

O_O

Since when is Wharton a university?! lol

10/27/11

^grade deflation at ivy STEM, but definite inflation in other departments. 55% of harvard's non-STEM have an A-average, for starters.

10/27/11

^ Well, a third of my Ivy class are Economics majors, a fifth are pre-meds, and about a quarter are Engineers (added = almost 80%). Add to that another 5% of students who are Physics/Linguistics/Math etc. majors, and you begin to realize how a VAST MAJORITY never see a hint of grade inflation, but actually grade deflation due to the brutal competition.

10/28/11
seedy underbelly:

^ Well, a third of my Ivy class are Economics majors, a fifth are pre-meds, and about a quarter are Engineers (added = almost 80%). Add to that another 5% of students who are Physics/Linguistics/Math etc. majors, and you begin to realize how a VAST MAJORITY never see a hint of grade inflation, but actually grade deflation due to the brutal competition.

I don't know about that...a measure of grade inflation isn't based on people or declared majors but can be based on classes. 80% of the classes at Columbia aren't math/science/engineering/economics. You can put all these competitive people into the same art history class, and at the end of the day...it's still an art history class.

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/27/11

Honestly Ivies are worth it if a student gets a ton of financial aid to attend and thus can attend with affordable price tag. For others who come from upper middle class (whose parents make over 200k/ year) or even lower high class, the decision to attend an Ivy vs a state flagship becomes much more complicated. To me, an Ivy degree ain't worth 30k more per year to attend over a top public state school, if in-state tuition is available for top public schools such as U Illinois, U Texas, UNC, UVA, UCLA, or U of Michigan and if I am not getting much financial aid from Ivies.

There are pros and cons of attending Ivy vs State flagship. Ivies give you better recruiting and supposedly 'better' education, but you can still get a very good education at schools like U Illinois or U of Texas. And, girls at U Texas or U Illinois are 100 times hotter than girls at Ivies. I am getting sick and tired of many stuck-up girls at Cornell who think they're hot, but in reality and by state school standards, many of them would be lucky to be considered to be 5's and 6's. It is like a person who drives a Honda Civic in Afghanistan thinks he's the shit because everyone else there is poor as fuck and no one else has a car.

That said, I think Harvard is a different beast altogether. The life-time prestige and social benefits of having gone to Harvard may make it all so worthwhile. Honestly, I would still go to Harvard even if I have to pay 200k to attend. My brother graduated from Harvard MBA last year - and needless to say - he reaped huge benefits by dropping "I went to Harvard" bomb to many fine looking girls at parties, bars, clubs, and even at work when he was flirting with girls in HR or other departments. Harvard is in a class of its own when it comes to prestige and Harvard brand gives you instant credibility and desirability in front of many gorgeous women. Last time I saw my brother, he hooked up with one of the most gorgeous and exotic looking brunette hotties I've ever met in NYC and they've been going out for few weeks now.

What is funny is that during his time at Harvard MBA, my brother openly admitted that he didn't really learn anything and he probably went out to drink at clubs and 'network' much more frequently than he spent time studying. Hell, he even told me that he worked much harder and learned more in high school compared to Harvard MBA. Still, what matters is the brand, recruiting, and alumni network of Harvard MBA. His girlfriend thinks my bro is a fucking genius because he went to Harvard.

I don't care if Berkeley physics majors are smarter than English majors at Harvard. At the end of the day, you ain't gonna impress any fine ladies by dropping "I went to Berkeley, and I got 3.9 GPA in electrical engineering, which is the most fucking difficult major out there."

Many hot girls haven't even heard of Wharton, Stanford, Dartmouth, or Columbia, but they all know Harvard. Hell, many hot girls don't even know what I-banking is. Fair or not, being able to drop that "I went to Harvard" bomb is one of the most dangerous weapons of destruction for one's successful dating strategy.

10/28/11
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

Honestly Ivies are worth it if a student gets a ton of financial aid to attend and thus can attend with affordable price tag. For others who come from upper middle class (whose parents make over 200k/ year) or even lower high class, the decision to attend an Ivy vs a state flagship becomes much more complicated. To me, an Ivy degree ain't worth 30k more per year to attend over a top public state school, if in-state tuition is available for top public schools such as U Illinois, U Texas, UNC, UVA, UCLA, or U of Michigan and if I am not getting much financial aid from Ivies.

There are pros and cons of attending Ivy vs State flagship. Ivies give you better recruiting and supposedly 'better' education, but you can still get a very good education at schools like U Illinois or U of Texas. And, girls at U Texas or U Illinois are 100 times hotter than girls at Ivies. I am getting sick and tired of many stuck-up girls at Cornell who think they're hot, but in reality and by state school standards, many of them would be lucky to be considered to be 5's and 6's. It is like a person who drives a Honda Civic in Afghanistan thinks he's the shit because everyone else there is poor as fuck and no one else has a car.

That said, I think Harvard is a different beast altogether. The life-time prestige and social benefits of having gone to Harvard may make it all so worthwhile. Honestly, I would still go to Harvard even if I have to pay 200k to attend. My brother graduated from Harvard MBA last year - and needless to say - he reaped huge benefits by dropping "I went to Harvard" bomb to many fine looking girls at parties, bars, clubs, and even at work when he was flirting with girls in HR or other departments. Harvard is in a class of its own when it comes to prestige and Harvard brand gives you instant credibility and desirability in front of many gorgeous women. Last time I saw my brother, he hooked up with one of the most gorgeous and exotic looking brunette hotties I've ever met in NYC and they've been going out for few weeks now.

What is funny is that during his time at Harvard MBA, my brother openly admitted that he didn't really learn anything and he probably went out to drink at clubs and 'network' much more frequently than he spent time studying. Hell, he even told me that he worked much harder and learned more in high school compared to Harvard MBA. Still, what matters is the brand, recruiting, and alumni network of Harvard MBA. His girlfriend thinks my bro is a fucking genius because he went to Harvard.

I don't care if Berkeley physics majors are smarter than English majors at Harvard. At the end of the day, you ain't gonna impress any fine ladies by dropping "I went to Berkeley, and I got 3.9 GPA in electrical engineering, which is the most fucking difficult major out there."

Many hot girls haven't even heard of Wharton, Stanford, Dartmouth, or Columbia, but they all know Harvard. Hell, many hot girls don't even know what I-banking is. Fair or not, being able to drop that "I went to Harvard" bomb is one of the most dangerous weapons of destruction for one's successful dating strategy.

I agree with this almost entirely. HBS is an unparalleled 2-year experience; there's simply nothing like it. Heck, I would gladly give up my entire net worth and take out massive loans for a chance to go there.

The HBS guys I know absolutely dominate the social scene in Boston. Some of the stories I've heard about their partying and travelling are pretty insane.

10/27/11
Best Response
10/28/11

I went to public high school in Michigan, and now attend UMich - Ross. I am part of an ethnicity that is "over represented" at Ivy schools. Let me tell all of you Ivy bashers something - your perspective is completely wrong. The very top kids at Michigan, the ones consistently getting the A's and being recruited for ibanking/consulting, would be mediocre at Ivy league schools. I have numerous friends at better schools than UMich, and there is zero doubt they would ace any business/econ class at UMich or any other top public school.

UMich is a great school with a great atmosphere, and a target for Wall St because many smart and hardworking students are here. But the smartest and hardest working students are at better schools, period. If you think many of the most elite high school kids choose their state university over top private schools, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, Harvard or whatever would be cheaper to attend than UMich. You really think Harvard or MIT lets the most talented math/science students attend UC-B or UIUC or UMich because of a couple grand? Ivy league endowments are in the billions, and they could provide free/almost free tuition to every student if they wanted to (and basically do for every student that needs it). My sister just graduated from a top private school, and though I come from a upper middle class family with zero debt, paid less than I do. Don't be fooled by high sticker prices, they are completely meaningless for 80% of the kids who aren't very wealthy.

It's laughable to think the top 50 kids at UMich or UC-B are comparable to the top 50 kids at Harvard. A 2400 SAT/4.0 GPA kid is a superstar at any public school. Guess what? Harvard rejects significantly more 4.0/2400 SAT kids than they accept. Even if I grant you that GPA/SAT metrics are comparable among these two groups, that is only because GPA/SAT have maximum caps. Take away these variables, and Ivy kids remain clearly distinguishable on other factors. For instance - the only kid from my high school (large and upper middle class) accepted at Harvard was extremely likable (HC king), top athlete (football captain), and top math/physics student.

The top 50 kids at Harvard are the best of the best in whatever they do, and driven/ambitious as hell. Do you really think these types of kids, as a whole, would settle for public school when they can get a superior environment for cheaper? Take out the best handful public schools, and you can see why the top 50 at your run of the mill state "flagship" would be average at top private schools.

10/28/11
latitude4310:

I went to public high school in Michigan, and now attend UMich - Ross. I am part of an ethnicity that is "over represented" at Ivy schools. Let me tell all of you Ivy bashers something - your perspective is completely wrong. The very top kids at Michigan, the ones consistently getting the A's and being recruited for ibanking/consulting, would be mediocre at Ivy league schools. I have numerous friends at better schools than UMich, and there is zero doubt they would ace any business/econ class at UMich or any other top public school.

UMich is a great school with a great atmosphere, and a target for Wall St because many smart and hardworking students are here. But the smartest and hardest working students are at better schools, period. If you think many of the most elite high school kids choose their state university over top private schools, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, Harvard or whatever would be cheaper to attend than UMich. You really think Harvard or MIT lets the most talented math/science students attend UC-B or UIUC or UMich because of a couple grand? Ivy league endowments are in the billions, and they could provide free/almost free tuition to every student if they wanted to (and basically do for every student that needs it). My sister just graduated from a top private school, and though I come from a upper middle class family with zero debt, paid less than I do. Don't be fooled by high sticker prices, they are completely meaningless for 80% of the kids who aren't very wealthy.

It's laughable to think the top 50 kids at UMich or UC-B are comparable to the top 50 kids at Harvard. A 2400 SAT/4.0 GPA kid is a superstar at any public school. Guess what? Harvard rejects significantly more 4.0/2400 SAT kids than they accept. Even if I grant you that GPA/SAT metrics are comparable among these two groups, that is only because GPA/SAT have maximum caps. Take away these variables, and Ivy kids remain clearly distinguishable on other factors. For instance - the only kid from my high school (large and upper middle class) accepted at Harvard was extremely likable (HC king), top athlete (football captain), and top math/physics student.

The top 50 kids at Harvard are the best of the best in whatever they do, and driven/ambitious as hell. Do you really think these types of kids, as a whole, would settle for public school when they can get a superior environment for cheaper? Take out the best handful public schools, and you can see why the top 50 at your run of the mill state "flagship" would be average at top private schools.

Good post

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/28/11
latitude4310:

I went to public high school in Michigan, and now attend UMich - Ross. I am part of an ethnicity that is "over represented" at Ivy schools. Let me tell all of you Ivy bashers something - your perspective is completely wrong. The very top kids at Michigan, the ones consistently getting the A's and being recruited for ibanking/consulting, would be mediocre at Ivy league schools. I have numerous friends at better schools than UMich, and there is zero doubt they would ace any business/econ class at UMich or any other top public school.

UMich is a great school with a great atmosphere, and a target for Wall St because many smart and hardworking students are here. But the smartest and hardest working students are at better schools, period. If you think many of the most elite high school kids choose their state university over top private schools, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, Harvard or whatever would be cheaper to attend than UMich. You really think Harvard or MIT lets the most talented math/science students attend UC-B or UIUC or UMich because of a couple grand? Ivy league endowments are in the billions, and they could provide free/almost free tuition to every student if they wanted to (and basically do for every student that needs it). My sister just graduated from a top private school, and though I come from a upper middle class family with zero debt, paid less than I do. Don't be fooled by high sticker prices, they are completely meaningless for 80% of the kids who aren't very wealthy.

It's laughable to think the top 50 kids at UMich or UC-B are comparable to the top 50 kids at Harvard. A 2400 SAT/4.0 GPA kid is a superstar at any public school. Guess what? Harvard rejects significantly more 4.0/2400 SAT kids than they accept. Even if I grant you that GPA/SAT metrics are comparable among these two groups, that is only because GPA/SAT have maximum caps. Take away these variables, and Ivy kids remain clearly distinguishable on other factors. For instance - the only kid from my high school (large and upper middle class) accepted at Harvard was extremely likable (HC king), top athlete (football captain), and top math/physics student.

The top 50 kids at Harvard are the best of the best in whatever they do, and driven/ambitious as hell. Do you really think these types of kids, as a whole, would settle for public school when they can get a superior environment for cheaper? Take out the best handful public schools, and you can see why the top 50 at your run of the mill state "flagship" would be average at top private schools.

I gave you a silver bananna for this. It's one of the best posts I've read in a while.

I think state school kids drastically underestimate how tough it is to get into top ivies as a non-athlete/non-legacy/non -URM and the intense competition for top grades, jobs, and grad schools once you get there. I just talked to my cousin who's a senior at Princeton with awesome grades in economics and internships at both MBB and BB under his belt. He only got ONE full-time offer. He said the level of talent at Princeton and the competition is ridiculous. And this is a kid who graduated first in his class from one of the best magnet high schools in the country.

HYPSM is on a different level altogether. With generous financial aid and aggressive outreach, the elite schools are truly getting the brightest high school kids out there.

10/28/11
Brady4MVP:
latitude4310:

I went to public high school in Michigan, and now attend UMich - Ross. I am part of an ethnicity that is "over represented" at Ivy schools. Let me tell all of you Ivy bashers something - your perspective is completely wrong. The very top kids at Michigan, the ones consistently getting the A's and being recruited for ibanking/consulting, would be mediocre at Ivy league schools. I have numerous friends at better schools than UMich, and there is zero doubt they would ace any business/econ class at UMich or any other top public school.

UMich is a great school with a great atmosphere, and a target for Wall St because many smart and hardworking students are here. But the smartest and hardest working students are at better schools, period. If you think many of the most elite high school kids choose their state university over top private schools, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, Harvard or whatever would be cheaper to attend than UMich. You really think Harvard or MIT lets the most talented math/science students attend UC-B or UIUC or UMich because of a couple grand? Ivy league endowments are in the billions, and they could provide free/almost free tuition to every student if they wanted to (and basically do for every student that needs it). My sister just graduated from a top private school, and though I come from a upper middle class family with zero debt, paid less than I do. Don't be fooled by high sticker prices, they are completely meaningless for 80% of the kids who aren't very wealthy.

It's laughable to think the top 50 kids at UMich or UC-B are comparable to the top 50 kids at Harvard. A 2400 SAT/4.0 GPA kid is a superstar at any public school. Guess what? Harvard rejects significantly more 4.0/2400 SAT kids than they accept. Even if I grant you that GPA/SAT metrics are comparable among these two groups, that is only because GPA/SAT have maximum caps. Take away these variables, and Ivy kids remain clearly distinguishable on other factors. For instance - the only kid from my high school (large and upper middle class) accepted at Harvard was extremely likable (HC king), top athlete (football captain), and top math/physics student.

The top 50 kids at Harvard are the best of the best in whatever they do, and driven/ambitious as hell. Do you really think these types of kids, as a whole, would settle for public school when they can get a superior environment for cheaper? Take out the best handful public schools, and you can see why the top 50 at your run of the mill state "flagship" would be average at top private schools.

I gave you a silver bananna for this. It's one of the best posts I've read in a while.

I think state school kids drastically underestimate how tough it is to get into top ivies as a non-athlete/non-legacy/non -URM and the intense competition for top grades, jobs, and grad schools once you get there. I just talked to my cousin who's a senior at Princeton with awesome grades in economics and internships at both MBB and BB under his belt. He only got ONE full-time offer. He said the level of talent at Princeton and the competition is ridiculous. And this is a kid who graduated first in his class from one of the best magnet high schools in the country.

HYPSM is on a different level altogether. With generous financial aid and aggressive outreach, the elite schools are truly getting the brightest high school kids out there.

I agree with this post. Many people out there have no idea how tough it is to get into Harvard or Princeton. And, people talking about grade inflation at Ivies are straight-up misinformed.

I have no doubt that someone who is capable of breaking 3.5 GPA in Econ/ Math at Princeton or Harvard would just coast through Berkeley or Michigan and manage 3.8+ no problem. The talent pool and level of competition at Princeton/ Harvard vs. state school is not even close. Also, this proves that just because some random Joe with 25 ACT gets lucky and goes to Princeton rather than a Non-target that would fit his intellectual level better, competition for top grades and scoring that top banking job out of OCR at a top target is really intense, hence, this random Joe at Princeton wouldn't benefit from OCR at Princeton and would not end up with that top banking job at Goldman Sachs IBD.

Somehow, I think that there exists some really wrong perceptions of Ivies from others outside. Some people just assume that Ivies hand out A's like people hand out Halloween candies to kids. Or, some people think that banks would hand out banking jobs to anyone with a pulse who happens to attend Harvard or Princeton. All these are flat-out wrong assumptions and nothing but unfounded speculation.

11/4/11
latitude4310:

I went to public high school in Michigan, and now attend UMich - Ross. I am part of an ethnicity that is "over represented" at Ivy schools. Let me tell all of you Ivy bashers something - your perspective is completely wrong. The very top kids at Michigan, the ones consistently getting the A's and being recruited for ibanking/consulting, would be mediocre at Ivy league schools. I have numerous friends at better schools than UMich, and there is zero doubt they would ace any business/econ class at UMich or any other top public school.

UMich is a great school with a great atmosphere, and a target for Wall St because many smart and hardworking students are here. But the smartest and hardest working students are at better schools, period. If you think many of the most elite high school kids choose their state university over top private schools, you couldn't be more wrong. In fact, Harvard or whatever would be cheaper to attend than UMich. You really think Harvard or MIT lets the most talented math/science students attend UC-B or UIUC or UMich because of a couple grand? Ivy league endowments are in the billions, and they could provide free/almost free tuition to every student if they wanted to (and basically do for every student that needs it). My sister just graduated from a top private school, and though I come from a upper middle class family with zero debt, paid less than I do. Don't be fooled by high sticker prices, they are completely meaningless for 80% of the kids who aren't very wealthy.

It's laughable to think the top 50 kids at UMich or UC-B are comparable to the top 50 kids at Harvard. A 2400 SAT/4.0 GPA kid is a superstar at any public school. Guess what? Harvard rejects significantly more 4.0/2400 SAT kids than they accept. Even if I grant you that GPA/SAT metrics are comparable among these two groups, that is only because GPA/SAT have maximum caps. Take away these variables, and Ivy kids remain clearly distinguishable on other factors. For instance - the only kid from my high school (large and upper middle class) accepted at Harvard was extremely likable (HC king), top athlete (football captain), and top math/physics student.

The top 50 kids at Harvard are the best of the best in whatever they do, and driven/ambitious as hell. Do you really think these types of kids, as a whole, would settle for public school when they can get a superior environment for cheaper? Take out the best handful public schools, and you can see why the top 50 at your run of the mill state "flagship" would be average at top private schools.

100% true - silver banana. it's also true that the smartest kids at lesser ivies (and I went to one of them) are not as smart as the top of the crop at the best ivies. The hierarchy holds and is there for a reason.

10/28/11

IP:

At the risk of disagreeing with you, I think you are slightly overstating the difficultly of paying for HYPSM. My experience tells me otherwise.

Brady4MVP: Having done the target school and entry level finance thing, I think that you are drastically overestimating the prestige factor. We're talking about college and entry-level finance. Even IP would say his job is neither special nor limited to intelligent people. He is not bragging about having a finance job--one would hope--to validate his intelligence (since it's not a validation) and by extension state school kids.

Sure it's difficult in a narrow sense, much like going to community college is difficult for some people, but in the broad sense it is nothing special. I am non-legacy, non URM, and non-athlete. I just learned to read well at a young age and enjoyed math. I didn't work especially hard, but just happened to enjoy learning.

I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.

10/28/11

Ehh, I come from the school that thinks the only "good debt" is stuff secured at 2/3 equity and used to pay for hard assets with fairly stable prices (property plant and equipment, land, and other resources.)

If you can go to Stanford and pay only $25K/year, that's frigging awesome. But once we start talking about more than a $10K/year spread over Berkeley, I'm not sure it's not worth it. They both have top notch engineering programs, and I personally would much rather graduate from Berkeley debt-free or with $50K in debt than graduate from Stanford with $50K or $100K in debt. Saving about $40K/year, it would take 15 months to pay that off. Meanwhile at 8%, you've got student loan interest of $300/month working against you, and you don't get to deduct it on your taxes beyond $2K or when you spend your first year in NYC as a white-collar professional.

If you come from a middle class family and can spend your first year saving that $50K and stick it into savings and investments and get 10% returns, that's $3 Million when you hit 65. It's the lower risk choice, and if you change your mind, you can always use that $50K (or $150K) to go to grad school or do an MBA.

I think there's a student loan bubble forming as it stands with liberal arts majors graduating school with $100K in debt and not finding jobs. But meanwhile, tuitions will keep rising at 6-10%/year until four years of private school costs the maximum you can borrow from the Feds + $7K/year earned from part-time jobs.

10/28/11
IlliniProgrammer:

If you come from a middle class family and can spend your first year saving that $50K and stick it into savings and investments and get 10% returns, that's $3 Million when you hit 65. It's the lower risk choice

I think that's ultimately what this boils down to: risk. Taking an investor's perspective and considering college as an investment, you're only going to take the 'risk' (ie pay the high college tuition) if your expected return from that investment corresponds to high sharpe ratio / lies on efficient frontier (if you will), relative to that risk. So I think that's basically the fundamental disagreement here - the expected return from college. If you're really smart and dedicated and fiercely driven you might be able to do well anywhere, so I guess it depends on the person to some extent. But how many hurdles do you want to have to cross, and what type of hurdles. And that's touching on the more tangible benefits from your investment (job prospects, alumni network, quality of professors, etc)....that's not even accounting for the more intangible benefits. But alas, I don't think any amount of data will prove expected return...it really depends on your perspective and future outlook.

Sometimes I go about in pity for myself, and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky
10/28/11

I disagree with Harvard being on a whole other level. There's a huge prestige factor, of course. But saying that the top 50 is "on another level" compared with the top 50 from say a top state school is naive. Personally, I have a good amount of friends who go to Harvard from my high school. And they do fairly well. And I know all about the competition at these top ivy league schools.

But, I also personally know a guy, valedictorian at my HS, who is at MIT with a 5.0GPA (yes 5.0) majoring in computer science. Now, HE is on another level. (he works on wall street now) Now, there are some solid, top-notch engineering schools on par with MIT, such as Caltech, GATech, Illinois, etc. You really don't think there are 50 guys in the engineering school alone that is on par with the top 50 at Harvard? I, myself, know a handful of engineers with a 4.0GPA at Illinois.

Point is...this is dumb to compare the top 50 at an ivy vs the top 50 at a state school. It's basically comparing smart people to smart people and saying who is smarter? It's almost like we're in 3rd grade...But really...who really gives a fuck?

10/28/11
RonaldBacon:

I disagree with Harvard being on a whole other level. There's a huge prestige factor, of course. But saying that the top 50 is "on another level" compared with the top 50 from say a top state school is naive. Personally, I have a good amount of friends who go to Harvard from my high school. And they do fairly well. And I know all about the competition at these top ivy league schools.

But, I also personally know a guy, valedictorian at my HS, who is at MIT with a 5.0GPA (yes 5.0) majoring in computer science. Now, HE is on another level. (he works on wall street now) Now, there are some solid, top-notch engineering schools on par with MIT, such as Caltech, GATech, Illinois, etc. You really don't think there are 50 guys in the engineering school alone that is on par with the top 50 at Harvard? I, myself, know a handful of engineers with a 4.0GPA at Illinois.

Point is...this is dumb to compare the top 50 at an ivy vs the top 50 at a state school. It's basically comparing smart people to smart people and saying who is smarter? It's almost like we're in 3rd grade...But really...who really gives a fuck?

The top 50 at harvard are kids who were intel finalists, USAMO winners, IMO team members, prize winning musicians, authors, and other super gifted types. If that's not "on another level," then I guess you have much higher standards than me.

But yes, arguing over this is pretty pointless. It's just annoying that whenever ivy league schools come up in a thread, Illini has to jump in with his whole "state school kids are just as smart as those at harvard!" meme. I like the guy a lot, but it really reeks of midwestern big 10 insecurity.

10/28/11
Brady4MVP:
RonaldBacon:

I disagree with Harvard being on a whole other level. There's a huge prestige factor, of course. But saying that the top 50 is "on another level" compared with the top 50 from say a top state school is naive. Personally, I have a good amount of friends who go to Harvard from my high school. And they do fairly well. And I know all about the competition at these top ivy league schools.

But, I also personally know a guy, valedictorian at my HS, who is at MIT with a 5.0GPA (yes 5.0) majoring in computer science. Now, HE is on another level. (he works on wall street now) Now, there are some solid, top-notch engineering schools on par with MIT, such as Caltech, GATech, Illinois, etc. You really don't think there are 50 guys in the engineering school alone that is on par with the top 50 at Harvard? I, myself, know a handful of engineers with a 4.0GPA at Illinois.

Point is...this is dumb to compare the top 50 at an ivy vs the top 50 at a state school. It's basically comparing smart people to smart people and saying who is smarter? It's almost like we're in 3rd grade...But really...who really gives a fuck?

The top 50 at harvard are kids who were intel finalists, USAMO winners, IMO team members, prize winning musicians, authors, and other super gifted types. If that's not "on another level," then I guess you have much higher standards than me.

But yes, arguing over this is pretty pointless. It's just annoying that whenever ivy league schools come up in a thread, Illini has to jump in with his whole "state school kids are just as smart as those at harvard!" meme. I like the guy a lot, but it really reeks of midwestern big 10 insecurity.

I was third in the whole eastern coast for playing a musical instrument. (won't say which instrument...but it's a competitive one....not like the triangle or some shit). And I don't consider myself "on another level." I did well on my SATs (2200+). But then again, my GPA (in HS and college) has always around a 3.4-3.5. I do think I'm a smart person...but top 50? No way. But can I compete with ivy league kids? I think so...Anyway. point is...there are a lot of mediocre students(like me) that have done some impressive things in HS. Just saying, it's not only an ivy league thing.

10/28/11

You may attend Columbia for free if your parents don't have a whole lot- and you made a smart move if your alternative is taking out loans to go to state school. My parents made the mistake of paying off their house and saving for retirement, so FAFSA put our expected family contribution well above Columbia's tuition. I think they offered me a couple scholarships to get the cost down to $35K/year, but I looked at US News and World Reports and realized I could move 20 up in the Engineering rankings by going to $20K/year Wisconsin after scholarships. And then I got the in-state admit which worked out a little higher in the rankings for a little less.

Education is a very important priority, but you have to be smart about it. A community college education that allows you to practice as an engineer or a CPA may be worth killing for vs. not getting that education, but beyond that, the prestige isn't worth tripling your college costs. You make your own success through hard work and competence.

Also, why is Columbia getting lumped in with H/Y/P? Honestly Columbia strikes me as a Wash U just with a serious inferiority complex based on a number of attitudes I've seen from students. It's a respectable school, but I don't think it makes the Chicago/Northwestern/Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Wharton level.

10/28/11
IlliniProgrammer:

Also, why is Columbia getting lumped in with H/Y/P? Honestly Columbia strikes me as a Wash U just with a serious inferiority complex based on a number of attitudes I've seen from students. It's a respectable school, but I don't think it makes the Chicago/Northwestern/Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Wharton level.

You're just a troll aren't you?!

P.S: Wharton isn't a university, genius.

10/28/11
seedy underbelly:
IlliniProgrammer:

Also, why is Columbia getting lumped in with H/Y/P? Honestly Columbia strikes me as a Wash U just with a serious inferiority complex based on a number of attitudes I've seen from students. It's a respectable school, but I don't think it makes the Chicago/Northwestern/Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Wharton level.

You're just a troll aren't you?!

P.S: Wharton isn't a university, genius.

Why is Northwestern on the same level as Harvard. That is laughable. I grew up 10 minutes away from Northwestern and many kids at my high school didn't even know that Northwestern was a good school, while everyone practically worshiped Harvard. And, Columbia >>> Northwestern, in terms of selectivity and caliber of student body.

This is anecdotal evidence, but my friend transferred from Berkeley to Columbia for Econ last year. He told me that Columbia is much more rigorous than Berkeley and getting a top GPA at Columbia takes much more work and intelligence. He also mentioned that overall, the intellectual horsepower of kids at Columbia blows Berkeley's out of water.

What I think about this issue is that at Berkeley or Michigan, there is a very big variance of intelligence and talent among student body. I would wager that at least 35% of kids at these schools are no where close to as intelligent as average kids at Columbia. But, top 15% of kids at Berkeley may indeed be as good as kids from Columbia or Dartmouth. Let's not forget that UC Berkeley and University of Michigan accept tons of retards transferring from community colleges who didn't even take SAT back in high school and barely graduated high school. Where as at top Ivies like Harvard or Princeton, such kids would stand no chance of getting in within a million years. Hence, the variance of intelligence and talent among top Ivies is much smaller compared to top public schools, and we can assume that 'most' of kids at top Ivies are pretty darn smart. But, I wouldn't make the same assumption for kids at Berkeley or UCLA. Are there people at Berkeley as smart as people at Harvard or Columbia? I think so. On average, are students from Berkeley comparable to students from Columbia? Hell no.

10/28/11

my experience is that the average intelligence of a state school kid and an ivy kid is not far off, but the ivy kid's savvy with gaming the system crushes the state schooler's.

i personally know a HYP premed who got a 36MCAT and some terrible ochem grades but still got into harvard MD-PhD. i wouldn't call this person brilliant but (i) pleasing authority and (ii) concentrating whatever talent one has down into one hard point consistently takes some folks pretty far in the System

this person would never have the balls to do anything independent, like make a black swan scientific discovery or start a great business, but is golden within the System

even harvard was too much of a straightjacket for Marky Sugarmountain and Billy Windows

10/28/11
ivoteforthatguy:

my experience is that the average intelligence of a state school kid and an ivy kid is not far off, but the ivy kid's savvy with gaming the system crushes the state schooler's.

i personally know a HYP premed who got a 36MCAT and some terrible ochem grades but still got into harvard MD-PhD. i wouldn't call this person brilliant but (i) pleasing authority and (ii) concentrating whatever talent one has down into one hard point consistently takes some folks pretty far in the System

this person would never have the balls to do anything independent, like make a black swan scientific discovery or start a great business, but is golden within the System

even harvard was too much of a straightjacket for Marky Sugarmountain and Billy Windows

Ehh, I think there's a 10-20 IQ point gap between the medians at the two schools, but there's something to be said about some of this.

I remember when they handed out the resume book for the analyst program I was in. Some of these kids were dumb as rocks- I had to spend an hour trying to explain exponents and the difference between simple and compound interest to one of them. This was a clear departure from the graduate students I was teaching NP-completeness reduction to, but his resume looked amazing. 4.0 GPA, honors student council president, etc. etc.

There is a bit of an intellect gap between the medians, but the real killer is the marketing factor, IMHO. Does anyone honestly believe there's a $500 difference between the quality of a Ralph Lauren and Hugo Boss suit? You pay $250 for quality of the Ralph Lauren, $25 for a picture of a guy playing polo, and that's it. For the Hugo Boss, you pay $275 for the quality of the suit and $500 for pictures of people leaning weird ways and making funny faces.

Hugo Boss takes a cynical view of consumers, and some private schools take a cynical view of hiring managers and students. There needs to be a stronger focus on delivering cost-effective quality. As it stands, post-secondary education is one of the few things government does well.

10/28/11
ivoteforthatguy:

my experience is that the average intelligence of a state school kid and an ivy kid is not far off, but the ivy kid's savvy with gaming the system crushes the state schooler's.

i personally know a HYP premed who got a 36MCAT and some terrible ochem grades but still got into harvard MD-PhD. i wouldn't call this person brilliant but (i) pleasing authority and (ii) concentrating whatever talent one has down into one hard point consistently takes some folks pretty far in the System

this person would never have the balls to do anything independent, like make a black swan scientific discovery or start a great business, but is golden within the System

even harvard was too much of a straightjacket for Marky Sugarmountain and Billy Windows

My friend's brother got a 41 on his MCAT...he went to Rutgers.

10/30/11
ivoteforthatguy:

even harvard was too much of a straightjacket for Marky Sugarmountain and Billy Windows

Is that how we refer to young billionaires these days?

a_pad

10/28/11

The top 50 at harvard are kids who were intel finalists, USAMO winners, IMO team members, prize winning musicians, authors, and other super gifted types. If that's not "on another level," then I guess you have much higher standards than me.

Of course. We had a couple at Illinois too in addition to 2400s, Presidential Scholars, etc. etc. Miss America graduated a year or two before me. It's not really that big of a deal, but more importantly, you're focusing on high school. The real question is what have you done in the past four years? How much have you gotten published in IEEE? What organizations have you led? What graduate courses have you taught?

There's simply a lot more opportunities to differentiate and prove yourself as an intelligent and driven adult at a larger school.

10/28/11

look all maybe we can summarize all this by saying that going to a top target might have some advantages

1. killer curves in most classes give you a sense of how modest your own talents are
2. get to rub elbows with some fancy nobel laureates
3. nicer gym
4. a little more name recognition outside of regional markets

none of this makes you a superior person to a state school person. if you are putnam or IMO caliber you're better than us all but going to school with putnam-types doesn't transfer his glory onto you. and being a name-dropping, arrogant fuck will get you hated everywhere, even among your fancy alumni chums.

10/28/11

Actually, I doubt Harvard has more USAMO and Intel Challenge winners than Berkeley

Math-oriented people don't really give a shit where they go... one of my buddies went to Berkeley and another to Duke (both actually made money in college between the generous aid and scholarships). They turned down Harvard and MIT, respectively. Now one works at Amazon and the other at a startup in SF working great hours

Point being, if you're smart enough, quality of education and faculty trumps prestige by a wide mile... If you're programming in multiple languages by age 14, why go to some stodgy school in New England when you could be in NorCal working on the cutting edge of innovation?