If you could do it all over...

Knowing what you know now what career path would you have taken?

or

If you were me, what would you do for a career?

I spent the past 10 years flying a military jet, I'm going to a top 10 business school this fall. The ONLY experience I have outside of the military or high school jobs is a summer audit internship in 2005, so I am a pretty clean slate.

I have a family so I'm not considering investment banking or consulting. Everything else is fair game. I also have a preference for the state of NC.

Before anyone says, "well what do you want to do", I will say I am interested in your ideas not mine. I am extremely ignorant on career paths and I am using the next three months to answer that question for myself. I want to make sure I am not overlooking something just because I don't know about it.

Thanks!

 

Getting a job at a professional services firm like an accountancy, investment bank, or management consultancy has the advantage that you can get exposure to lots of different businesses, which helps you decide where you might want to make a career. The downside of these jobs is the demands they place on your time and your life.

If I had a family, I would stay in my current job, which is in life insurance actuarial. It's low stress, low hours, relatively lucrative, and technical in a way that I enjoy. As a younger single person it's not exactly where I want to be, but for the older guys it seems like a good fit.

 
Best Response

a) I'd have flown a military jet. I've been in finance my entire career and that would have rocked. Congrats and thank you for your service.

b) I don't want to turn it around at all and say "what do you want to do" but what are you good at and what do you like? Nix IB and consulting, I have a family and can more than understand that, but do you like finance and accounting, marketing, operations, etc.? I'd read up on the different aspects of those roles (on here and there are a couple of other good websites but I feel strange linking to them on this site and drive traffic-someone else will), do a self examination and figure out what you like and are good at. For example corporate finance within an operational company-everyone on here will say Fortune 500 or bust but there are many other good ones out there-will involve a fair bit of numbers so if you don't like dealing with numbers and producing/analyzing financial statements all day long, it may not be for you; maybe operations where you can manage people and processes is your strength and desire; maybe you're a marketing person and someone else can say what marketing does...(marketing's legit, I just like to give my friends shit even when they've gotten high up at P&G, Coke or Pepsi). And figure out if you want to join a larger operational company and work there. Let me define, at least in my mind: operational company is an entity that actually produces goods or services rather than a financial company that invests, lends into and/or advises companies.

Or get into corporate/commercial banking (and search this site for those descriptions). Tons of Charlotte posts about that. BofA is god there.

I'm assuming you're a Duke/UNC MBA, and although I don't track MBA programs at all, but they seem up there. If you're down there you should be able to talk to career services and there may be a military advisor so talk to them.

I'd investigate real estate investment as well. I have a soft spot for real estate and have no idea if there are or who they are, but I'd guess there are decent real estate investment co's down there.

 

Thanks for the responses guys. I knew someone would say "fly a jet", but if its any consolation to those on here having a quarter-life crisis wishing they would have done something like military aviation, understand that it just became a job like everything else after a while. 4 hours of prep for a 2 hour flight followed by a 2 hour debrief gets old. Not to mention never wanting to do something stupid so dad wouldn't take the keys to the car, having your daughter forget who you are after 7 month deployments, and being shocked that you can rattle off a pretty good list of friends who have flow their planes into the ground. In spite of any negatives, I'm extremely thankful for my experience; I had some really great times, I would have never been accepted into such a highly respected b-school without it, and I gained valuable perspective on what is actually important in life.

For career paths, you mentioned pretty much those that I am looking into. In order of preference:

  1. Fortune 1000 FP&A: maybe aerospace industry at a company like Curtis-Wright. Good quality of life, team environment, decent pay, lots of lateral move opportunities, chance to be a CFO
  2. Advisory (Transaction, transfer pricing, risk, valuation) at a super regional size accounting firm: exposure to lots of industries, easy to move into other opportunities
  3. Corporate/Commercial banking: probably not at a monster like B of A, it seems to be organized almost like a federal entity. Looking more at a midsized bank like a BB&T where I can make an impact. Possibly work into some sort of PE type job or bank leadership.
  4. Real Estate: CBRE, JLL, Lincoln Harris. Don't know much about.
  5. Manager at financial services company such as Vanguard/TIAA-CREF. Don't know much about ....
  6. Operations, supply chain. What I do in the military, need to research more civilian operations experiences
  7. Sales. I'm good at sales, just seems like a waste for a good MBA since I could have gotten sales jobs without it
  8. Consulting. Family
  9. IB. Family

I had not though of actuary, I need to look more into that.

I've been doing a lot of informational interviews the past few weeks. I really appreciate y'alls input. I will follow up any more ideas with informational interviews to learn more.

 

We, at least I, needed to say fly because I was 12'ish when Top Gun came out and flying a Tomcat was possibly the coolest thing ever. Really coolest thing ever. Didn't want to be a ball player, I wanted to fly. My eyes just f'd me over at 17. Couldn't see 10" in front of me... Now I'm 15/20 but where was science back then?

I've also worked with ex-fighter and bomber guys who have done very well. You can honestly do anything with your background, especially with a top notch MBA. I'm good friends with a guy who's ~60 who was an F-18 test and top gun pilot who's made his way very well as the COO of a publicly traded F500 and another as the A-10 Gulf War pilot who went marketing with P&G types of companies who just took 2 years off at 50 (no kids) to scuba in Indonesia.

Your background will open many doors. Wish you the best.

 
flewbye:
9. Sales. I'm good at sales, just seems like a waste for a good MBA since I could have gotten sales jobs without it
Hopefully they taught you what a sunk cost is in business school because that concept applies here.

If you are good at sales, you should absolutely do that, because you will make more money and move up quicker in sales roles than most other positions if you are actually good at it. Good salespeople are hard to find and are worth every penny.

That being said, I question why you think you are good at it when it seems you have never held a professional sales position before. What makes you think you're a good salesperson?

Good luck.

 
DickFuld:
"flewbye" wrote:

That being said, I question why you think you are good at it when it seems you have never held a professional sales position before. What makes you think you're a good salesperson?

Good luck.

I've actually not held a non-military professional position in anything, unless you consider a 2 month internship as professional and I do not. Therefore I am forced to look at menial experiences such as part time high school and college jobs to determine what I may or may not be good at. So for this specific example, I won some regional awards for retail sales at a part time job. I enjoyed the work and I did a good job. If you can sale a treadmill to a fat person that is probably never going to turn it on then I think you could sale CRM software to a company that actually needed it (random product example). I've also talked with people to get their perspective on what I do well and I have received a lot of feedback that sales would be a strength of mine. Not exactly resume bullet points, but I did say I was a "clean slate". The costs aren't sunk yet. I don't start school until the fall. But with GI Bill/Yellow Ribbon the costs are very low thankfully. Other higher level thinking that I used to determine what I may want to do with my life include: -Marketing-no because I got a C in that in undergrad -Choosing an undergrad based on who had the best looking ladies -Choosing a military service based on who had the best looking uniforms -Choosing a stock based on P/E or dividend Thanks for the feedback. Sales is always an option.
 
flewbye:
4. Real Estate: CBRE, JLL, Lincoln Harris. Don't know much about.

If I could do it all again, I'd realize I wanted to do high level real estate early on, so I wouldn't have fucked around in poli sci/pre-law and then had to scramble through semi-related jobs until I was 27 and actually got into REPE. CBRE and the like are great if you're one of those born salesmen types, but I did it for a year and hated it. Fucked around in property management and construction management for a while too and had to get grad school admissions until I got someone to take a chance on me.

Real estate is the shit if you're into it. Then again, you can always do anything else on your list and still invest in real estate.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
CRE:
"flewbye" wrote:
4. Real Estate: CBRE, JLL, Lincoln Harris. Don't know much about.

If I could do it all again, I'd realize I wanted to do high level real estate early on, so I wouldn't have fucked around in poli sci/pre-law and then had to scramble through semi-related jobs until I was 27 and actually got into REPE. CBRE and the like are great if you're one of those born salesmen types, but I did it for a year and hated it. Fucked around in property management and construction management for a while too and had to get grad school admissions until I got someone to take a chance on me.

Real estate is the shit if you're into it. Then again, you can always do anything else on your list and still invest in real estate.

What part of real estate are you doing that you enjoy so much?

 

[quote="CRE"]

"flewbye" wrote:
4. Real Estate: CBRE, JLL, Lincoln Harris. Don't know much about.

If I could do it all again, I'd realize I wanted to do high level real estate early on, so I wouldn't have fucked around in poli sci/pre-law and then had to scramble through semi-related jobs until I was 27 and actually got into REPE. CBRE and the like are great if you're one of those born salesmen types, but I did it for a year and hated it. Fucked around in property management and construction management for a while too and had to get grad school admissions until I got someone to take a chance on me.

I was wondering what the best/easiest route is into acquisitions/Asset Management at a reputable REPE firm(direct investment)/RE Asset Manager for someone in my position? Is it investment/development sales then transfer to REPE, or can it be done straight from undergrad? My uni is a non target school for IB/PE etc however I'm in Real Estate & Finance undergrad ranked 2/3 for Real estate research & programme in the UK. Will also have fairly extensive experience in commercial real estate valuation/brokerage for a student + top grades. It would be good to know how high I can aim in terms of firm eg. Blackstone??

Thanks

 
flewbye:

Thanks for the responses guys. I knew someone would say "fly a jet", but if its any consolation to those on here having a quarter-life crisis wishing they would have done something like military aviation, understand that it just became a job like everything else after a while. 4 hours of prep for a 2 hour flight followed by a 2 hour debrief gets old. Not to mention never wanting to do something stupid so dad wouldn't take the keys to the car, having your daughter forget who you are after 7 month deployments, and being shocked that you can rattle off a pretty good list of friends who have flow their planes into the ground. In spite of any negatives, I'm extremely thankful for my experience; I had some really great times, I would have never been accepted into such a highly respected b-school without it, and I gained valuable perspective on what is actually important in life.

For career paths, you mentioned pretty much those that I am looking into. In order of preference:

1. Fortune 1000 FP&A: maybe aerospace industry at a company like Curtis-Wright. Good quality of life, team environment, decent pay, lots of lateral move opportunities, chance to be a CFO
2. Advisory (Transaction, transfer pricing, risk, valuation) at a super regional size accounting firm: exposure to lots of industries, easy to move into other opportunities
3. Corporate/Commercial banking: probably not at a monster like B of A, it seems to be organized almost like a federal entity. Looking more at a midsized bank like a BB&T where I can make an impact. Possibly work into some sort of PE type job or bank leadership.
4. Real Estate: CBRE, JLL, Lincoln Harris. Don't know much about.
5. Manager at financial services company such as Vanguard/TIAA-CREF. Don't know much about
....
8. Operations, supply chain. What I do in the military, need to research more civilian operations experiences
9. Sales. I'm good at sales, just seems like a waste for a good MBA since I could have gotten sales jobs without it
10. Consulting. Family
11. IB. Family

I had not though of actuary, I need to look more into that.

I've been doing a lot of informational interviews the past few weeks. I really appreciate y'alls input. I will follow up any more ideas with informational interviews to learn more.

You have a wide range of interests right now which makes sense given you haven't been exposed to the industry yet. I think once you spend some more time at your MBA, network with professionals, do an internship, etc. your range will narrow.

I would definitely do some research on a "shadowing" program where you get to spend a day at a firm's offices, follow a person or two around and just see what they do. This was very helpful for me when deciding what I wanted to do.

I also enjoyed accounting and wanted to go into the Big 4 starting out but over time realized that I am much more interested in the decision making aspects of financial statement analysis as opposed to audit / preparation. I had internships in audit, F500, and banking. F500 was interesting in the sense there was a lot of deep dive PNL analysis and figuring out what smaller events / processes are driving material PNL impacts. Lots of presentations for management. Ultimately I went into commercial banking at a top BB (doing middle market deals) and then transitioned to corporate banking (working with the bank's biggest clients). What I liked about credit was the ability to do my own financial/industry analysis when underwriting debt products for corporate customers. In this case, the decision making aspect was much closer to me given the analysis I was doing enabled me to make a recommendation to an approver / risk manager / capital markets committee for doing the deal vs. being a "financial analyst" and making presentations to VP department heads and being far removed from the process. This is just my experience and you might want to go a completely different direction.

What I have found though, is outside of investment banking and equity research, corporate & commercial banking is the best bang for your buck trade off between hours & comp. You can definitely make ~35k more as an IBD analyst vs. a corporate banking analyst but you will have to work an extra 30+ hours per week to do it, to me its not worth the trade off. Salary growth / career progression was also much faster in my career track compared to peers who have went to F500 / accounting / advisory, etc....depending on the BB you go to, you can get a 10k pay bump each year from Analyst 1 - Associate 3, which is a 60k pay increase over a 6 year period, not counting bonuses (at least 20% of base depending on the bank you go to). Also going from An3 to As1 you get a much bigger pay bump (i.e. going from 80-90k to 100-120k).

Happy to answer any questions you may have, best of luck with your career search/exploration.

 

Scenario 1:

-Microbiology -> asst brewer -> brewmaster -> craft beer founder

Scenario 2:

-Political science + econ -> policy wonk shit -> adviser to progressive policymaker

Scenario 3:

-Finance -> Early stage fund -> Partner track

Scenario 4:

-Marry Padma Lakshmi/Natalie Portman/Jessica Williams


oh to be young again.

 

Hey bud - first intuition was to tell you to try consulting. Lots of exposure to different industries/functions that would effectively give you some time to experiment and figure out what you're good at/what you enjoy. But I see you've ruled that out.

I'd recommend a F500 rotational program in a similar vein. It's also a good way to get some diverse business experiences under your belt (considering your relative "freshness") while satisfying your criteria of better work/life balance. The Fortune 500 brand name will help you build some credibility as well.

Check this out for starters: http://www.mba-exchange.com/candidates/mba-jobs-mba-development-program…

By the way, it was your "if you could do it all over..." headline that grabbed my attention. Started writing this newsletter to answer some of those questions: http://aya.launchrock.com/

Good luck and ping me with questions.

flewbye:

Knowing what you know now what career path would you have taken?

or

If you were me, what would you do for a career?

http://ayainsight.co/ Curating the best advice and making it actionable.
 
Status_Quo:

Hey bud - first intuition was to tell you to try consulting. Lots of exposure to different industries/functions that would effectively give you some time to experiment and figure out what you're good at/what you enjoy. But I see you've ruled that out.

I'd recommend a F500 rotational program in a similar vein. It's also a good way to get some diverse business experiences under your belt (considering your relative "freshness") while satisfying your criteria of better work/life balance. The Fortune 500 brand name will help you build some credibility as well.

Check this out for starters: http://www.mba-exchange.com/candidates/mba-jobs-mb...

By the way, it was your "if you could do it all over..." headline that grabbed my attention. Started writing this newsletter to answer some of those questions: http://aya.launchrock.com/

Good luck and ping me with questions.

"flewbye" wrote:
Knowing what you know now what career path would you have taken?
or
If you were me, what would you do for a career?

I signed up for your email. Unfortunately I'm 30, I hope the tips still apply! I'll sign up for the other once I get a school email. Thanks

 
theebreadwinner:

Why put the location constriction on there?

Once again its a family restriction. If it was just me, I would be game for anything. But, I'm 30 with 2 kids. I've drug my wife through 4 different states and multiple deployments for the past couple of years I'm moving to be within range of the grandparents. Between Charlotte and Raleigh there are plenty of F500 companies headquartered. The problem with it is when you start talking rotational programs.

 

I saw that someone above recommended you look into the actuarial field. I don't think its's a good investment of your time right now, simply because an MBA program is only two years, while the actuarial exam process typically takes seven. Also, an MBA does almost nothing for actuaries - all employers care about is how many exams you have. That said, it is a great career, so if you'd like to learn more about it, I'd recommend checking out these sites:

beanactuary.org soa.org casact.org actuarialoutpost.com (search for transitioning from military - there are a number of threads on this topic)

 
skydiver:

I saw that someone above recommended you look into the actuarial field. I don't think its's a good investment of your time right now, simply because an MBA program is only two years, while the actuarial exam process typically takes seven. Also, an MBA does almost nothing for actuaries - all employers care about is how many exams you have. That said, it is a great career, so if you'd like to learn more about it, I'd recommend checking out these sites:

beanactuary.org
soa.org
casact.org
actuarialoutpost.com (search for transitioning from military - there are a number of threads on this topic)

Thanks, sounds like it would have been a better option if I started straight out of undergrad.

 

I'm glad to see that you're considering Transactions Advisory, because as soon as I finished reading your first post, I thought that Big4 TAS-type of work would be most suited to your needs. The hours are very reasonable and the pay is respectable. You'd be doing work similar to what an analyst would do at an IB and sometimes even ER, but the size of the engagements would just be a lot smaller.

 
LebaneseMonkey:

I'm glad to see that you're considering Transactions Advisory, because as soon as I finished reading your first post, I thought that Big4 TAS-type of work would be most suited to your needs. The hours are very reasonable and the pay is respectable. You'd be doing work similar to what an analyst would do at an IB and sometimes even ER, but the size of the engagements would just be a lot smaller.

Thanks Lebanese Monkey. You're post made me look closer at this particular path and I am very interested.

 

I am former military myself though I was on the other side of the radios (air traffic control). I know you are going to B-School but have you thought of 'data science'? It is highly technical and constantly challenges you intellectually. Additionally, solid work/life balance and pays well (90 - 115k average salary.) If you are interested start learning Python and brush up on your maths/statistics. I can answer additional questions if you are interested.

“I am always saying "Glad to've met you" to somebody I'm not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive, you have to say that stuff, though.” ― J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye
 
jntheriot504:

I am former military myself though I was on the other side of the radios (air traffic control). I know you are going to B-School but have you thought of 'data science'? It is highly technical and constantly challenges you intellectually. Additionally, solid work/life balance and pays well (90 - 115k average salary.) If you are interested start learning Python and brush up on your maths/statistics. I can answer additional questions if you are interested.

Hey dude, thanks for the thought. I am very much committed to b-school at this point (deposit paid, 2 year lease on a house signed) so I don't think I would be a very good fit. I'm glad you found something that works for you. Thanks for your service(usually trying to fly me into some sort of geographic feature or another airborne machine!) and good luck to you.

 
flewbye:
"jntheriot504" wrote:
Thanks for your service(usually trying to fly me into some sort of geographic feature or another airborne machine!) and good luck to you.
It is tough business trying to surf the internet and perform air traffic control.
“I am always saying "Glad to've met you" to somebody I'm not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive, you have to say that stuff, though.” ― J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye
 

I finished up my military flying in January, and am halfway through an internship at a well known bank as we speak. I'd be happy to chat off line if you think it would be useful. I know I spent at least a year stressing about my transition. Best of luck.

 

If I could do it all over again, I would have never gone to law school. I wasted 3 years of earning power to get a degree in a field that I hated being in for 6 years crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s then basically had to hit the reset button at 32 to finally spring into what I love doing now which is real estate. If I could do it all over again, I would have gone to an undergrad that had a strong real estate program and probably would have gotten my MBA. Then I would have either gone into mortgage banking or tried to find an acquistions gig at real estate investment firm.

 
DetRustCohle:

If I could do it all over again, I would have never gone to law school. I wasted 3 years of earning power to get a degree in a field that I hated being in for 6 years crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s then basically had to hit the reset button at 32 to finally spring into what I love doing now which is real estate. If I could do it all over again, I would have gone to an undergrad that had a strong real estate program and probably would have gotten my MBA. Then I would have either gone into mortgage banking or tried to find an acquistions gig at real estate investment firm.

If it makes you feel better, one of my mentors with a J.D. said that it positioned him very well for his current position which is VP for real estate at a major commercial bank.

 

man, i couldn't agree more. there is such a huge dearth of us all in the same boat. as much as i loved the theory of law in undergrad, i got to 1L and was totally like: "WTF?!?" but at that point i'm already $40k into a degree.... yeah, i know. suck costs, yada yada. shoulda, coulda, woulda.

i actually ended up going back to get my MBA and that set me up for a job with a FoHF, then moved into a corp-VC role. pay is good, especially when factoring W-LB, but i definitely itch for that real market startup experience.

 

After having the experience of a first year analyst in Banking this is my conclusion: Be an entrepreneur. Banks will do the utmost to save it, refinance, buyout, merge it, just keep the cash flowing and fee income. To fail, it has got to be a pretty bad biz idea. Good luck!

 

Two suggestions:

1) Asset Management. With a location restriction, you won't be targeting the big firms so there's a good chance you can find a regional firm that has an investment strategy you like that'll offer a good work/life balance. You're East Coast so working market hours will be pretty family friendly. A family office would also be good fit.

2) Commercial banking. Try and get on with a firm with a good financial sponsors group so you have interesting deals to look at. Wells Fargo is pretty pro work-life balance in terms of a corporate focus. Do some informational interview to get a sense of each firms culture and base your decision around that.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
 

With the perfection of hindsight, I would have done banking after college, and then PE, top MBA, and either IM or HF right after that. Yes, it's a "cookie-cutter" path, and the hours suck, but it's financially rewarding, and most importantly, you acquire both transferable valuable skills and great pedigree. It opens you up to be competitive for a very wide array of jobs. Ultimately, we all want as many desirable options as possible.

I had the misfortune of doing trading instead. I liked it, but the exit opps are pretty lousy, and I walked away with very specific skills within a niche area. I had to do an MBA, and even though I am graduating from a M7 program, the recruiting process was extremely tough for me.

 

I second the F500 Rotational Program for you. One strength that you may have from so much military experience is the capacity for leadership, and the rotational program would put you on a fast track to BigCo management if that sounds appealing to you.

One thing I'd be careful about is pigeonholing yourself with the role you take after business school. Going into FP&A is good if you definitely want to stay in corporate finance, but it closes the doors to other paths.

A question I would ask yourself: do you enjoy working with people and can you see yourself being a manager? Or do you prefer working independently with numbers?

If the former, I would go the corporate generalist path. If the latter, I would go with a more finance track, either at a company or at a bank.

Another potential option: do consulting for 2 years, and then get the hell out. Exit to a plum job in corporate strategy at a large company, where you might do more interesting things than if you didn't start in consulting, and get to spend time with the fam.

 
pancake_ninja:

One thing I'd be careful about is pigeonholing yourself with the role you take after business school. Going into FP&A is good if you definitely want to stay in corporate finance, but it closes the doors to other paths.

A question I would ask yourself: do you enjoy working with people and can you see yourself being a manager? Or do you prefer working independently with numbers?

If the former, I would go the corporate generalist path. If the latter, I would go with a more finance track, either at a company or at a bank.

Can you speak more to the pigeon holing. I was under the impression that the corporate finance path to CFO was a long one with lots of chances at advancement along the way. Also the sheer numbers of cf positions in major metro areas means lots of lateral opportunities as well.

I do enjoy working in groups and leading teams. However I would actually enjoy a year or so just having to worry about myself or just a couple of people. As a senior analyst I could focus on getting industry credibility while still having lots of leadership opportunities at the manager to director levels. Did I have an inaccurate perspective on this?

 

thank you for your service. look at PWM, it requires a lot of discipline (military) and sales skills (which you claim to have). additionally, while the hours won't be as easy as 40 hrs a week, they won't be 100hr weeks like IB, so you can still have a family & a life.

edit: that was a dumb idea, you don't need a MBA to do this. I'd go for a marketing exec role

 

I would have done Petroleum Engr at UT / Texas A&M as they run the show here in Houston. Getting into a major like Exxon or independent E&P as an upstream reservoir engineer opens mad doors into oil & gas finance - A&D, ER, E&P hedge funds as knowledge of the resource plays and underlying geology is tantamount to an investment. The majors do all acquisitions & divestitures in house and is highly technical. The banker roles in A&D are limited to 100% pitch books - the modeling of the upstream wells and reservoir dynamics are done by the Pete crowd. I did an undergrad in accounting and is near impossible to get into anything technical (obv) and you are limited to high level energy M&A, pitch books or energy book running. Oops. Can't even get a masters in Pete as an undergrad in engineering is required.

OP - if you want to go down the CFO route, take a ton of accounting classes as most CFOs have a CPA license with several years of work in auditing, treasury, FP&A etc. The CFO position entails managing large groups of people with different objectives as well as making sure the company meets earnings, passes audits, meets budgets, has effective internal controls, as the CFO signs off on financial statements.

 

flewbye:

By pigeonholing, I mean that once you start in, say, the finance org of a company, it might be hard to shift into other areas, such as sales, business development, etc. If you're sure you want to be on the CFO track, it's great, but if you're unsure, a rotational program is a better idea.

 

If you are good at sales and building relationships while performing under stress (assumption given your exp as a jet pilot) you could consider a sales position within finance. I'm not sure how strong the army network is in finance, but perhaps you could get acquainted with some type of asset sales at a S&T desk or PE/HF IR. Raising capital for funds is heavily network based and if there's a strong alumni network with either field it could be a good fit.

DYEL
 

I would echo the commercial real estate route as well. Even though you say you have great sales skills, I wouldn't recommend brokerage (CBRE, JLL, etc) however unless you have substantial savings or family connections. It's usually mostly commission based (stipend but low) so it's tough to make a decent amount of money the first year. Could be tough if you're worrying about supporting a family. Although, the good brokers kill it after they have a few years under their belt.

REPE is a great opportunity and an MBA can get you in the door, especially since you have a pretty solid story. It depends on the shop, but usually hours are better than tradition private equity/IB shops and the pay is pretty similar. I'm not too familiar with companies in that particular area of the country, but I'm sure quite a few would come up if you did a little digging.

If you're hands on, development could be a really cool gig. Again, I'm not too familiar with the major players in that market, but do some digging and I'm sure you could find a number of firms.

Good luck and feel free to reach out if you have any questions!

 

If I could do it differently, I would go and study finance at UPenn. Try to get a job in Wholesale banking for Wells Fargo or Standard Charter. Right now I'm doing commercial banking and it sucks so much. Regular people don't use their brains, F*cking idiots can't even count 4 20's together.... Anybody want to offer an internship out there??

Greed is Good!
 

I only read the original post, but here is a probably unpopular response:

I did IB for 2.5 years and left to do corporate strategy at a F100 company. I got married 2 years later.

Maybe it's the liquor talking, but sometimes I wish I sucked it up for another two years and cashed a few more bonuses. Or at least jumped into PE or something rather than hopping over to the industry.

I still get paid fairly decent, all things considered, but man, once you start thinking about all the shit that comes with planning for houses and kids and nest egg and what not, sometimes you miss having that bonus. A lot.

 

Do what you want, a career in banking isn't by any means a golden ticket to becoming a millionaire (assuming you stick it out for only 2 years). I would just read about the industry lifestyle on this forum and speak with other people who have gone through it. It's not the pretties life you can live but it pays and you learn a ton. Even if you turn out hating it and leave the industry under 1 year, at least you can tell yourself that you tried it and it just didn't work out

 

Internships. Each summer, choose a different internship in a field you might want to work in. That'll give you a much better sense of what you really want to do. In fact, maybe even work part-time during some academic years, if you can swing it. That's my regret from undergrad.

 
acs_london:
If I could do it all over again I would have chosen to study anywhere else but LSE. Sadly..
Why? I was planning on spending my senior year at LSE, this makes me question myself...
 
brutalglide:
Double majors/dual degrees = waste of time. Keep GPA as high as possible and never take anything that might hurt it if you have a choice (ie. figure out who that "easy" professor is, figure out what classes are "easy", etc). By far my dumbest mistake (in addition to not starting early enough)

It's sad that our education system gives students an incentive to do this. I don't blame you brutalglide, so don't take this as a knock on you... I'm just saying it's sad that colleges are set up in a way that some students shy away from learning more and expanding their world view because grades are so important.

 

This sums it up completely for me:

Just try to enjoy college and make as many friends as you can. Don't get too caught up in the grind.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

If you go to a top school a) take economics/finance classes and get all A's b) take the stuff that really interests you - you will never have a chance to experience it again and frankly as long as you get good grades in core econ/finance stuff you can enjoy yourself in other stuff

 

Wow! Is this what life has come to? High School seniors asking about careers in investment banking? Stop being foolish. Enjoy college; take classes that interest you and do extremely well in all of them. Above all, have fun, make tons of friends and get laid! You'll probably never get as much free time to explore again!

 
tdave:
Wow! Is this what life has come to? High School seniors asking about careers in investment banking? Stop being foolish. Enjoy college; take classes that interest you and do extremely well in all of them. Above all, have fun, make tons of friends and get laid! You'll probably never get as much free time to explore again!

It never fails. A high school kid is ambitious about learning the ins and outs of IB and someone from IB wants to tell him not to. I think we can all agree that these kids are doing other things aside from hanging out on WSO all day, but I also think it's time to give them some credit.

The consistent 1st bucket Analyst will be the one offered a straight promotion to Associate, who will hit VP faster than any of his peers, and become an MD at a ridiculously young age. I'm sure that 1st bucket analyst was the same type of person who was researching his career path a few years ahead of his cohorts when he was in high school as well.

These kids aren't watching funnyordie videos or chatting on facebook. They're on WSO looking for information for their future. I highly doubt that they're the kinds of kids who are going to go back outside and play catch no matter how many times we tell them.

 

Agree with @brutalglide.

Keep the GPA as high as possible, and don't take unnecessary classes. Keep the GPA up, stay involved in EC's, network and find good internships. Tough stuff but you'll be at the top after.

-- "Those who say don't know, and those who know don't say."
 

Regrets: -Not applying to a stronger target / Ivy league (applied ED to semi-target) -Not doing internships early on - get a finance-related internship every summer starting freshman year. Internships during the year too if possible -Not discovering WSO and M&I.com until junior year (after SA interviews) -Not studying abroad

-(not a regret of mine, but keep your GPA at 3.7+)

You live and learn, but good for you that you're starting this early. That said, don't make college all about finding a job. Enjoy it cause you only live once.

 
IUHoosier08:
Sit on front of Excel for 14 hours a day. On Fridays and Saturdays leave your desk at 2 and get hammered, but be sure to be back at your desk by 11 the next day.

Terrible waste of time while in school... No one needs to spend 14 hours in front of a computer to get these jobs... That will only make you a boring douche who knows just a bit more excel than your peers... You can pick up all you need to get up to speed fairly quickly and training will fill in the gaps... Enjoy school cuz you only get that time once...

 

Reading some of your answers honestly makes me angry. College is a luxury, remember that. Its the only time in your life where you can fully dedicate yourself to things that interest you, that will eventually shape who you will become as an adult. Not taking classes because you think they'll hurt your GPA is foolish, you will never again get the chance to LEARN about different cultures, or history, or even economics in such a dedicated and free way.

I took a class in Hebrew and biblical text purely because i thought it would be interesting. It was widly known to be very challenging, and i barely got a C. Despite that its still the best class i ever took. It changed the way i viewed certain things and thats what college is for, it should not be viewed as a stepping stone for a job.

As far as regrets -I wish i would have learned earlier in life to "fail fast" and learn from it. -Dont memorize things, learn them. I did that way too much in college. -Ask people. Surprisingly people are more than willing to help if you show sincere interest and you dont approach them wanting X right away.

 
UBmonkey:
-I wish i would have learned earlier in life to "fail fast" and learn from it. -Dont memorize things, learn them. I did that way too much in college.

Great advice.

Fail, forward, fast...

And yeah, learn stuff for real, don't just BS memorize sh*t.

 

Just get a subscription to the wsj and read some every day. In three years you will build a general base of knowledge that will put you light-years ahead of most of your peers.

Other that, hit the bars and develop your social skills. Get comfortable talking with complete strangers. Learn to speak in front of groups. All of these skills help with interviewing and networking, and your first year is one of, if not the best time to build them (as long as you keep your GPA at a 3.5+).

Do these two things and keep a solid GPA, I think you put yourself in the best position to get the job rather than just getting the interview.

 

pretty sure this has been answered numerous times

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.
 

Would have done finance, but not banking. Maybe I'm just having a rough week, but I never imagined I could do this much mindless work, and somehow get paid a lot for it.

Only 4 months in, I may be prematurely bitter, but I guess it took more than an internship to realize that I just don't enjoy process work. Part of it may have been my fault to accepting too quickly (exploding offer), but I find myself learning little to nothing each day, despite killing myself for some of these guys. Sigh...

 

1) I wouldn't say "people" in general "follow" statistics (are they taking you somewhere?) 2) I myself am usually skeptical of them 3) Your question is assuming people are intelligent, something you'll quickly find is not the case. 4) Do you really thing Phucked conducted a statistically sound survey to come up with that particular figure?

 

Here's a statistic... Jimbo you've made 1648 posts in 39 weeks, so your avg. hit is 42.25 posts/wk. I predict a 20% growth in the next month and that you'll reach 2,000 by Sept. 30th. Not too shabby.

I think NYChimp should do something special to honor that achievement :-)

 

^^ but that it is all that statistics does. It tells you what can happen and not what WILL happen. Jimbo might not post for 3 months and there your hypotheses is proven wrong. So stats are useful for fools to make them feel better, the people who analyze the variables in depth are the Street rainmakers.

 

Actually one of the 1st years was asking me this the other day.

"I honestly don't know" is the short non-answer. :) But I would lean toward saying "yes" for the following reasons:

1) Learned a lot since I did not come from a finance background. More than I would have elsewhere, by far. 2) Made some great contacts in the industry (both co-workers and people elsewhere). 3) Have some great experience if I ever do want to go the PE/HF or business school route. 4) Saved a lot of money since I was frugal. (this is nice but lesser than the other reasons)

I don't think my 2nd year was as valuable as my 1st year, partially because the market tanked and pitches pretty much replaced deals, and partially because the learning thing does slow down in your 2nd year.

However, since I'm not following the more usual path after banking, it's a bit hard for me to say, "Yes this was definitely the best decision I could have made." It was certainly better than some of the alternatives I was looking at at the time, but I'm not sure if it was the absolute best.

It's challenging to keep relationships and health intact. Both of mine went downhill in my 1st year, but improved when I started working a bit less this year. Relationships (as in romantic ones) are much easier to keep alive if they are long-term e.g. you didn't start while on the job or just before.

Health - well, I've written about this one before, but you can definitely do things that limit how out of shape you get. But it's difficult to stay in top shape simply because you're sitting still for so long each day.

 

I am a bitter banker. I am finishing up my second year now and will likely do a third next year.

I would definitely go the consulting route if I could do it again.

In the last two years, I have went from being athletic to poorly out of shape, upbeat to depressed, and in a relationship to single.

One has to really decide what his priorities are before getting into this. When my relationship was going sour in my 10th month of banking, I had to make a decision: quit or let her go. Needless to say, the $90,000 bonus ball and chain won.

Why do I continue? Because I have already made so many sacrifices to be here.

Advice: Do not try to keep relationships up when in banking. The stress of having to be pulled in two directions is unbearable. If you are serious about banking, pretend you are married to it and want to spend infinite amount of time with it. Because you will be.

 

Interesting - I guess I have a different viewpoint. I still consider banking to be my best job. Curiously enough, while the hours were bad and I didn't get along with a select few people (but not nearly as many as you'd expect), my relationship stayed intact through my time in banking (it wasn't until private equity that the relationship ended, ironically - but it had nothing to do with the job). Additionally, I felt like I was only marginally unhealthier than I am today.

 

I just started in IB. I have been doing an Investment Banking traineeship in Amsterdam for a year now and hope to move to a BB in the future. The harder I work, the more I love my job. At the moment it is the best choice I could made career wise. I have a thing with spreadsheets and fixed income so as long as i am employed in this field after my traineeship.I would have no problem.YOU REALLY HAVE TO LOVE WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!!!

With regards to health and relationship...In Amsterdam it is very much OK since the hours are not anglo typical. I am in CorFin now and usually I am in the office from 8.00 - 19.00. When I was in S&T for 2 months, it was from 07.30 - 17.30.

Personally, After the end of my traineeship (August), I am planning on moving to London but finding a job at a BB there in these market circumstances will be quite impossible since the "normal" recruiting cycle is over.

 

I believe I wrote something similar to this post a few months ago when this topic was last brought up.

I would definitely do my time as a BB analyst again. I was miserable most of the time, badly treated, over worked, etc. However, the $$$ and the experience were worthwhile. The real question is, what else could I have done where I would have had a better life/career/whatever. I can't think of anything, consulting would have been almost as bad a life for a lot less pay. I really don't know anyone with a job that would be talked about on this website who didn't work a ton their first two years (not truly comparable to IB but still alot of work).

On the other note, its up to you to keep up both. Luckily, I didn't really abuse the free food and kept myself moderately active so my health is as good as it was in college. I'm also getting married to the girl I was dating going into banking, so no difficulties there. Relationships don't fall apart because of work, they fall apart because one side of the party can't negotiate the right bargain in terms of what is expected and needed by the other party. So, analysts dating people who work in 9-5 jobs who don't understand the job don't have a high success rate.

So, yes, I moved to a good exit, got paid, got laid, didn't let my health go, and learned a lot. Plus, I would never EVER want to be a consultant.

--There are stupid questions, so think first.
 

I asked this to my interviewers while I was doing PE interviews. I was unsure as to whether I wanted to do 2 years of banking/consulting before moving to PE.

They told me that they didn't regret it, but if they could, they'd go straight into PE (obviously biased, since they were trying to recruit me), but the sentiment was repeated later when I met them informally (after I got the offer).

They told me that while the breadth of work is smaller, but the level of responsibility is much higher than banking. In the end, every employer wants to know only two things: if you're competent and whether they can trust you, with a great emphasis on the latter. What you will be doing can always be taught.

 

that said, i have learned a ton; it just isn't the career path i want to pursue; i would like to work on the buyside for awhile, but ultimately, probably soemthing very different altogether

that said, thinking about the broader picture, sometimes it is both a blessing and a curse to have the opportunity to go to a top tier school and get these relatively high-paying jobs. it means we will rarely be daring enough to do great things, like start youtube for example (unless you go to stanford). we are content with structured success (unless you go to stanford), and that is kind of a tragedy, if you think about it. great things rarely ever come out of structured career paths, be it in any discipline. even in finance: ken griffin started investing using his conv arbitrage model, out of his dorm room at harvard; warren buffet started out after banging on Benjamin Graham's door and buying a gas station; peter thiel started clarium after starting paypal (although he was a trader at cs first, but still, a godfather of modern day entrepreneurial success; he definitely does not fit the wall street mold; plus he is nuts). but how often do you see this happening, especially so early? i don't think it's becaue ppl at these top schools are good, but just not good enough; i think it is because unless we are really daring, we are not willing to give ourselves a chance to see if we're good enough, because we don't have to, and the pressure to not lose out on guaranteed "success" is just too much. and hence the "best" of us will work at goldman, then at xyz pe fund, and then become a PM at SAC Capital or something, and the rest of us will do something similar if not exactly the same path. and this is fine. but it just begs one to wonder, what else could we do given how smart all of us supposedly are? i'm not saying there's anything wrong with going this route; i'm just saying, because these immediately gratifying routes are so readily available to us, and the risk reward ratio is so high in our favor, we are quick to discount anything else. i think of it as a conflict of successful mediocrity.

i don't know, just food for thought; for more eloquent and persuasive arguments in favor of this mindset, refer to the following:

www.paulgraham.com/articles.html www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/

 

[quote=wallstreetguy25]that said, i have learned a ton; it just isn't the career path i want to pursue; i would like to work on the buyside for awhile, but ultimately, probably soemthing very different altogether

that said, thinking about the broader picture, sometimes it is both a blessing and a curse to have the opportunity to go to a top tier school and get these relatively high-paying jobs. it means we will rarely be daring enough to do great things, like start youtube for example (unless you go to stanford). we are content with structured success (unless you go to stanford), and that is kind of a tragedy, if you think about it. great things rarely ever come out of structured career paths, be it in any discipline. even in finance: ken griffin started investing using his conv arbitrage model, out of his dorm room at harvard; warren buffet started out after banging on Benjamin Graham's door and buying a gas station; peter thiel started clarium after starting paypal (although he was a trader at cs first, but still, a godfather of modern day entrepreneurial success; he definitely does not fit the wall street mold; plus he is nuts). but how often do you see this happening, especially so early? i don't think it's becaue ppl at these top schools are good, but just not good enough; i think it is because unless we are really daring, we are not willing to give ourselves a chance to see if we're good enough, because we don't have to, and the pressure to not lose out on guaranteed "success" is just too much. and hence the "best" of us will work at goldman, then at xyz pe fund, and then become a PM at SAC Capital or something, and the rest of us will do something similar if not exactly the same path. and this is fine. but it just begs one to wonder, what else could we do given how smart all of us supposedly are? i'm not saying there's anything wrong with going this route; i'm just saying, because these immediately gratifying routes are so readily available to us, and the risk reward ratio is so high in our favor, we are quick to discount anything else. i think of it as a conflict of successful mediocrity.

i don't know, just food for thought; for more eloquent and persuasive arguments in favor of this mindset, refer to the following:

www.paulgraham.com/articles.html www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/[/quote]

Really good post, I think in some ways going into IBD or Consulting is less risky because the career path is so structured and the goals are generally always visible (if not always attainable). Not like running a start-up or something, where it would seem that you are really living from one day to the next and never in complete control.

 

This post is pretty interesting. Everyone knows that banking is not rocket science (in my opinion almost every type of enginerring is more quantitative). But yet, so many of our countries' "smartest" kids from Harvard, Penn, Stanford, etc are jumping into banking by default.

I think the top business kids just jump into IB or PE/HF because it is simply what you do. At Wharton 48% of the class of 2007 went into a BB bank. 48%! I wonder what they could be doing with their time/brain.

 
giocatoredoro:
This post is pretty interesting. Everyone knows that banking is not rocket science (in my opinion almost every type of enginerring is more quantitative). But yet, so many of our countries' "smartest" kids from Harvard, Penn, Stanford, etc are jumping into banking by default.

I think the top business kids just jump into IB or PE/HF because it is simply what you do. At Wharton 48% of the class of 2007 went into a BB bank. 48%! I wonder what they could be doing with their time/brain.

Wow, 48%! But surely that trend is not evident at undergrad level, i can't imagine that 48% of the world's "smartest" undergrads would go to B-school...surely not?

 

First, I think the points that have been made so far are great ones.

Despite all the hype, banking is indeed not right for everyone. In fact, it's probably right for very few people.

And do keep in mind - just because finance is "hot" now doesn't mean it will always be the case. Just look at the late 90s when startups and the dot-com craze were the hottest thing around.

I think wallstreetguy25's point is also interesting - some famous investors today started out in "unconventional" career paths, e.g. by something independently, whether we're talking Warren Buffett or Ken Griffin.

 

it helps to have money, contacts, some experience, a fall back plan, exposure to diverse collection of people, stamina to work a 90 hour week etc, especially when you're thinking along the lines of starting up your own business. Going into banking gives you access to all this which is very hard to gain in other fields in such a short space of time. I spent my summer at GS and made so many friendships and met so many people, junior and senior from all over europe and the world in the space of 3 months. I don't reckon I would have been in this position had I chosen to spend my summer helping a friend with his start up, or working on my own ideas when I would have to resort of credit cards to finance it.

As long as you keep your sanity intact and keep working on any great ideas you have, banking could be a rather clever stepping stone for greater things (by that I dont mean PE/HF!)

 

prettyspectacular is right, and in fact, some people have done just this. it's just that most don't, and the predisposition of most who go into banking/law/etc etc is to not have the menatily described above.

of course, i think that prettyspectacular is right, and this is what i am banking on (excuse the pun) within the next few years!

 

Awesome posts.

I helped co-found a startup so I have seen the other "daring" side. It was great but is something I will likely never do again. Why? Because it is like living in the lion's den 24/7/365 (mentally, physically, emotionally) with no guarantee of anything. Similarly, it is banking hours without the paycheck. Things get ugly when the venture starts to fold and you realize you spent the last x amount of years busting ass, eating ramen and then not having any tangible prospects in the aftermath.

You can throw around names like griffin, thiel, zuckerberg . . . but these guys, and their companies, are anomalies. Beyond this, what you must understand is that these guys were more than smart and hardworking, they had LUCK . . . the unquantifiable ingredient that is (I'd argue) the dealbreaker of ANY successful venture.

I'm glad I got the startup "daring" thing out of my system, and that I'm still young. Co-founding a startup is honestly like fighting Mike Tyson, I shit you not. It will exact its pound of flesh whether you win or lose (and losing is in the odds).

Anyway, thought I'd toss out that perspective for the darers out there. From what I've learned, I'd rather get pummeled in an investment bank and make cash and prospects, than get pummeled by a startup with a 90% failure rate and no exits.

I don't mean to be a dreamkiller, just dropp'n some cold hard realism.

 

putneyswope raises some excellent points. If you spend any time following startups or look seriously at the venture capital industry, you'll quickly realize that entrepreneurship is a very rocky and uncertain road to greatness.

e.g., from a guy who knows what he's talking about, the baseball model for venture capital: "'Out of ten swings at the bat, you get maybe seven strikeouts, two base hits, and if you are lucky, one home run. The base hits and the home runs pay for all the strikeouts.'

"They don't get seven strikeouts because they're stupid; they get seven strikeouts because most startups fail, most startups have always failed, and most startups will always fail." http://blog.pmarca.com/2007/06/the_truth_about.html

Don't forget too that there are guys like Steve Schwarzman and Henry Kravis who have been extremely successful following a standard finance path (IB -> PE).

 

Chiming in with the start-up thing - you really have to love what you're doing AND be willing to come out of it penniless to pursue the thing. It's tough, it'll suck the soul out of you and it is incredibly draining not knowing if your company is going to be around tomorrow. Sometimes it's not even within your control. I've been involved with four start-ups now (two as an employer, two as a founder). Nothing was really too different fundamentally about the different businesses (they were all tech/web based), but in the end, it really came down to luck whether they succeeded or not. You need even MORE luck to have the next facebook.

One of the companies I was working at was just starting to turn a profit when shenanigans by the CFO screwed the company over. I came to work one day to learn that "hey, guess what? Our CFO didn't pay taxes for two years and he's in mexico partying! Oh, and our largest investor pulled the plug. In case you were wondering, you no longer have a job either."

Another company I was working at had a superior product (I would argue, it was one of the best at the time) at a price half that of its closest competitor. A shame the sales cycle was so long (lesson: never EVER develop software for governments). The founders managed to sell it, but for far less than they wanted thanks to high fixed costs which murdered the bottom line.

Would I do it all again? Hell yes. At the end of the day, I have some interesting stories to tell and some really good friends. I'd also like to think I've got a wider skill set to draw on which can help me land positions I otherwise have no position being in. I didn't lose money either which is always a bonus with start-ups.

Then again, I also developed a stomach ulcer thanks to multiple quad shots of espresso a day, gained a ton of weight and lost more than a few relationships.

Having moved into VC, I get to see even more failures (and I've seen some spectacular implosions of our portfolio companies) which ultimately hurts my bottom line.

As others have said, banking offers you that magical risk/reward ratio which is something that many desire (including myself). Would I start another business? Maybe, but for now, I'd rather get pummeled in banking and make more money.

 

Like mentioned a couple of times above, many people do have aspirations to invent new novel products, but most people know that they can take the "easy" road through finance, earn enough money to retire well-off, then tinker their brains out. The sad fact is, the larger portion of the population will always make their way to the "hot" jobs, which is very unfortunate in many ways. My ex-gf is a genius and has the brainpower to comprehend ridiculously complex things, but she decided to become a doctor. Does she add value to society as a doctor? Sure she does, much like intelligent bankers assist the functioning of society, but she could benefit society in a far greater way by sitting in a research lab figuring out a cure for Alzheimer's disease or something similar. But for her, the trade offs aren't really enough to persuade her to give-up 300K plus a year and a cushy 9-5 job. Who wants to make 90K sitting in a research facility hoping to MAYBE make a difference? Thank God there are those people, they add an unquantifiable contribution to society and to every persons life, but like mentioned above...it takes that special personality.

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
 

What about once we have made a truckload of money from our banking bonuses/business profits...what then? In the end, putting the money to good use is just as satisfying as looking back knowing you worked really hard to earn it. This is why people who create successful businesses are held in such high regard. Starting up a revolutionary service or product can and does change peoples' lives (viva ebay!) but mansions and aston martins don't mean much when a better model comes out after 8 months. I'd like to know if many people venture into philanthrophy after a career in banking. I'm thinking along those lines at the moment; I know that right now I would not add much value to projects taking place in darfur, gaza, haiti, somalia etc. but perhaps I can use my wealth and experience of the markets and economy to do something that counts in the greater scheme of things. I find it is becoming a better incentive than to have an amazing house or 3...which really, anyone can have if they put truely put their mind to it.

 

Let me start off by saying this is definitely one of the better threads that this site's ever had. I agree with opinions from both sides of the spectrum.

You can't argue with finance's risk/reward ratio. It's a very attractive industry for a variety of reasons. In my opinion, however, the financial reward encourages mediocrity. Let me explain - I've met a ton of very intelligent people in PE. Despite it's aura, PE really isn't rocket science either. That being said, I sometimes wonder how much more of an impact these people could have outside of finance. Though the argument can be made that PE brings greater efficiency to the companies they invest in, thus promoting economic growth, you really aren't solving any earth-shattering problems.

I don't think selling your apartment to fund a startup is the answer. There's a middle ground somewhere between the conventional and completely unconventional.

 

i encourage everyone to follow fred wilson and union square ventures; they are slowly aiming to neutralize the risk/reward ratio problem in the startup industry. also, the baseball analogy is an antiquated one; this is not from me, but from the founders of ycombinator, union square, and every other seed stage incubator out there (i am very into this space, so i keep up with these guys); check this out, it is a solution to the starup exit/liquidity issue (the "9 out of 10 fail" statistic has to be adjusted for: how many ppl come up with hairbarined ideas, then how many ppl that come up with ideas are from top tier schools, etc; then how many of those ppl have the passion to live through the complete lifecycle of a startup?; after you go through this weedout process, you are left with your true statistic; also, with alot of VCs, many of their portfolio companies do not exit at multiple, but their TEAMS often do go on to eventually start companies that will, especially nowadays with startup costs going lower and lower):

http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2008/04/we-need-a-new-p.html

also here's another good one, addressing one of the posters above who has started a few companies, and the sustainability of a startup:

http://www.paulgraham.com/die.html

and you have to remember, typically these types of people who are successful with startups are not the type to ask themselves if they will succeed; they are the type to be so rabidly committed that they don't see any other possible alternative (not always, but often)

 
wallstreetguy25:
i encourage everyone to follow fred wilson and Union Square Ventures; they are slowly aiming to neutralize the risk/reward ratio problem in the startup industry. also, the baseball analogy is an antiquated one; this is not from me, but from the founders of ycombinator, union square, and every other seed stage incubator out there (i am very into this space, so i keep up with these guys);

I think you are misreading Fred's thoughts on the issue. For reference, don't know if you saw his comment on Alley Insider when Blodget tried to rank the best internet companies but he basically ripped Blodget's head off and said that there are no guarantees and VC by nature will always be risky (basically restated the baseball theory- in fact he linked Marc's post in a pretty old post). I feel pretty confident in saying that Fred would be much more cautious on the risk/reward aspect than you are making him out to be.

Great thread with some educated responses.

I'm glad I'm in banking personally and intend to continue as an associate in NY after my MBA. The job has taken its toll, but when I think about how people in the city I work in make the kind of money I'll get in May all-in after 6 years of work at least, it does make me kind of proud. I can do an MBA with little debt and move to another country with easily transferable skills, something you can't necessarily do in other industries. I might never be talked about like Jim Simons, but maybe like Leon Black, who earns almost as much and went a relatively 'conventional' route.

 

This gets into a bit of what I'm doing afterward, but so far everyone has made the following assumption:

You can either do a finance job or other conventional job, or do a startup that has a 9/10 chance of failing.

While it's true that most startups destined for an IPO or sale at a high valuation do indeed fail, that is not the only option.

There are lots of people out there who start "lifestyle businesses" - either doing something they love and making money with it without killing themselves, or making money while spending minimal time on whatever it is they're doing.

It all depends on what you want. Back when I was in school I also thought the only options were finance or startup, but as I've been out and researching other possibilities, I've found there is a middle ground between saving the world and doing a hardcore startup.

Personally, a real startup (of the 1/10 chances for success kind) is not for me. The risk/reward ratio is entirely off, and I don't want to spend years of my life doing something that may or may not work. But there are other ways to start something without going into debt/raising a lot of money/spending 5 years working on the idea.

 

Wallstreetguy - Those are two great posts, and you definitely have some valid points. However, i think the premise in the second post is pretty flawed: "If half the startups we fund succeed, then half of you are going to get rich and the other half are going to get nothing." There is a lot of middle ground that he's ignoring, I've seen plenty of startups that exit at miniscule or negative multiples (i.e. founders make a couple bucks, VCs get half their money back). If the baseball metaphor has shifted, then maybe there will be more base hits but I do not think we are seeing an overabundance of home runs now or in the near future.

Dosk - It is surprising no one had brought this up until now. Every six months or so you read about someone bailing on IB to become a baker, or open a surf shop, etc.

Personally, I love to cook and would love to be part of the restaurant industry. Unfortunately, there is about a 0.1% chance of becoming a millionaire as a chef or restaurant owner (and a 0.0% chance of becoming a billionaire). However, maybe after 10-20 years in finance, someday I'd love to go to culinary school, open a restaurant, etc. Of course, that is a retirement plan, not a career plan :-)

 

to dosk: no, i am definitely not making that assumption, and i am also not limiting the scope of my initial post to just "tech startups"; i think you are absolutely right, there are plenty of service/consulting based companies out there, which allow you live a great life, and are clearly startups in their own right

to altesv: much of paul graham's experience comes from having funded 80 startups over the course of the past 2-3 years or so. the thing is, at least from my view of what he says, the middle ground you are talking about is not success to him, that's all. it's just semantics there, i think.

and you're right, there will always be more base hits than home runs, objectively, and it will always be harder to increase the number of home runs, just in terms of the relativism at question; but i think those base hits will increase in number and in size, especially if the path to liquidity is created. and if fred wilson has anything to say about it, given he is the premier east coast venture capitalist, and one of the premier vcs in the country, it probably will be

 

i actually had the fortune of speaking to some seed stage investors about this topic some time ago; and i did in fact see the post you are referring to just a few days ago. these are home runs; no one is saying that home runs are a guarantee, but base hits i think can be more of a reality, as i mentioned in the post above, and when that becomes a reality, you will get more people striving for home runs, because even if they come up short, they are still in a decent position from other vantage points. i am fairly certain this is what the intention is of these guys, and of everyone trying to eventually make this concept into a reality. so in fact, i think this is exactly what Fred, and the people who hope to make this a reality are thinking.

and this, in technical nature, is not a new idea either; take the g-true (forget what it's called exactly), and the secondary market that's being put together by lehman, Merrill, etc etc for private trading

 
wallstreetguy25:
i actually had the fortune of speaking to some seed stage investors about this topic some time ago; and i did in fact see the post you are referring to just a few days ago. these are home runs; no one is saying that home runs are a guarantee, but base hits i think can be more of a reality, as i mentioned in the post above, and when that becomes a reality, you will get more people striving for home runs, because even if they come up short, they are still in a decent position from other vantage points. i am fairly certain this is what the intention is of these guys, and of everyone trying to eventually make this concept into a reality. so in fact, i think this is exactly what Fred, and the people who hope to make this a reality are thinking.

and this, in technical nature, is not a new idea either; take the g-true (forget what it's called exactly), and the secondary market that's being put together by lehman, Merrill, etc etc for private trading

I don't fully buy the "more base hit" theory; true, for some if you aim for a home run and fall short, you're still on second base but that doesn't always hold true. At some point you need to decide if you're going for a single or a home run, and that is going to influence a lot of things.

If we take an example of an internet startup, at some point a decision needs to be made on financing, staffing model, equity incentives for execs, scaling of infrastructure (servers, office space, etc.), revenue model, specific monetization strategy etc. You're going to reach a fork in the road for each of those, and the home run/single decision needs to be made.

Any improvements in this area (the slugging percentage for you baseball nerds) are probably going to be marginal at best, in my opinion not significant enough to really signal a paradigm shift.

 

Here's the question, though: do you -need- to be a millionaire?

It all comes down to what's more valuable, money or time. After doing this job for awhile you realize time is more valuable because you can't get more of it. And as I said, there are ways you can have a lot of time and still make money to live comfortably, even if you're not a millionaire.

And now I should stop writing since this is an investment banking message board. :)

 
dosk17:
Here's the question, though: do you -need- to be a millionaire?

It all comes down to what's more valuable, money or time. After doing this job for awhile you realize time is more valuable because you can't get more of it. And as I said, there are ways you can have a lot of time and still make money to live comfortably, even if you're not a millionaire.

And now I should stop writing since this is an investment banking message board. :)

Do I need to be a millionaire?

Honestly, yes. I know I won't be happy in life without a decent financial position. I want to live in a nice house/apt, drive a nice car, wear nice clothes, go on sick vacations, send my kids to good schools, etc.

I grew up fairly wealthy and am definitely "spoiled." Not in the traditional sense—I've never been snobby or a brat or anything—but I can't imagine living in a small house, driving a Hyundai, and flying coach for the rest of my life. Not that there's anything wrong with those things, it just isn't for me.

And there are actually three things (at least) that you have to balance: money, time, and passion. Am I passionate about cooking? Yes. But to pursue a career in food would be giving up both other variables—cooks work like dogs (15+ hour days, 6-7 days a week, on your feet and in a hot kitchen) and make almost no money. Banking on the other hand, I'm not quite "passionate" about, but I am definitely "very interested." Yes, I'm still sacrificing time, but at least the pay is good.

 

which is good, and i'm sure that's where alot of people are coming from; for me personally, i want to be rich, but not really to buy many things; i guess i'm just not into that kind of thing, not cause i don't think things are nice, i just never really buy things for myself, for whatever reason, probably kind of stupid of me. but i really just want to be able to invest in ridiculously awesome things one day; like the metuselah foundation, or grameen bank, or like time machines and whatnot, ok prob not the last one

 

Sorry if you think I'm a douche, jut trying to be honest. Maybe I am a brat, I guess if I were I wouldn't advertise it. Put it this way: I don't look down on people with less money and I have never gone out of my way to show off or brag about my family's money (e.g. at my high-school graduation party, some of my very best friends were appalled to see my house). I was just putting it out there as an explanation for why I honestly need to make a lot of money to be happy.

 

rather than high net worth. High net worth doesn't necessarily make you free (e.g. Larry Ellison - makes a ton but also in ridiculous debt due to yacht purchases etc.)

(this is another reason why I don't fit in as a banker :)

I suspect it's actually the same for most people - they don't want to be rich, they just want the feeling of being rich.

 

It is funny how a "prospective monkey" knows he "needs" to be a millionaire. If there is anything that is true about being in banking as an analyst - things will change.

I totally agree with dosk about the time vs. money tradeoff. There is also the "be your own boss" factor that makes starting your own gig even more interesting after spending a year in the trenches.

I know a couple of kids in bschool who were hardcore into banking before they got there - 4.0 GPAs, the whole lot. Those are the types of kids - the ones who will sacrifice their college experience on a social level - who will be the millionaires. If in college you honestly didn't grind to the bone, you're going to have a tough time making it through the BB to KKR/BX/etc. to whatever route that soooo many people have hard-ons for.

 

Fair enough, I haven't starting in banking yet (headed to b-school in the fall), but I do have a few years of corporate work under my belt and I know what it's like to live on a normal (albeit good outside of banking) salary. I know I definitely want more than I have now, and the path I was on was not going to get me where I want to go.

 

And AltESV: not to discourage you from banking or anything (why would I want to lose potential customers? :) but I think your perspective will change after doing it for awhile.

The grass is always greener.

This is actually a good thing - I had a bunch of other jobs before this and as a result of all those experiences plus banking, I finally realized what I value and what I actually want to do.

So the suffering can be worth it, even if you don't end up on the BB --> KKR/BX route Buck2210 mentions above. :)

 
I grew up fairly wealthy and am definitely "spoiled." Not in the traditional sense—I've never been snobby or a brat or anything—but I can't imagine living in a small house, driving a Hyundai, and flying coach for the rest of my life. Not that there's anything wrong with those things, it just isn't for me.

I believe this quote is what spurred the animosity towards AltESV. It is hard not to come off as snobby when claiming that one requires themselves to be a millionaire in order to find happiness in life. While this may ultimately prove to be true, it is a very bold statement to make as a 20 year old who has not achieved independent financial success yet. At this time, you haven't worked to attain your current lifestyle. You may find that the effort required to be a millionaire may be more than you're willing to put forth.

While I never personally had aspirations to become a millionaire (asides from daydreams about winning the lottery), this job truly gives you clarity into what you're willing to sacrifice for money. Quite frankly, having tens of thousands of dollars in the bank doesn't help me sleep at night. However, my tempur pedic pillow certainly does, and anybody with a gift ceritificate to brookstone can afford one of those.

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 
CompBanker][Quote:
Quite frankly, having tens of thousands of dollars in the bank doesn't help me sleep at night. However, my tempur pedic pillow certainly does, and anybody with a gift ceritificate to brookstone can afford one of those.

Very nicely put. I don't think great business leaders were born out of the desire or 'need' to be millionares. They followed their passion and built on their strengths which gave them a purpose to their career/life and an ambition to be fulfilled. Along with their successes, came alot of money.

I wonder whether wanting to be a millionare will keep one sane when they're working 100+ hours a week? One would have to be completely overwhelmed by greed, and utterly oblivious to the world around them if the only incentive behind their work was affording material goods.

 
CompBanker:
While this may ultimately prove to be true, it is a very bold statement to make as a 20 year old who has not achieved independent financial success yet. At this time, you haven't worked to attain your current lifestyle. You may find that the effort required to be a millionaire may be more than you're willing to put forth.

I understand I may have come off poorly, just trying to be honest about my motivations. And I'm 26, so I have worked for my current lifestyle for the last 4 years. As I said, I work in a decent corporate job (product manager at a tech company) and make a decent amount of money in absolute standards, but live a fairly modest lifestyle in San Francisco, where rent takes a significant chunk of my income. I'm not happy with my income (too low) and I'm not happy with my job (I feel like my work doesn't matter at all, no pressure, no excitement). I didn't mean to imply that banking/PE is the only possible way I will be happy, but I do think it will be much better for me than what I'm doing now.

Also, is the goal of being a millionaire really that outrageous? On this forum? When people talk about making 1 in 2 at BX or KKR before they are my age, it seems surprising that everyone is balking at my goals.

 

It's just more acceptable when someone says 'I want to be a very successful trader at X company' or 'I want to set up my own hedge fund' or 'work at KKR' rather than 'I want to have millions.' It's just a pretty vacant statement, When someone says being a millionaire is their goal, it reminds me of a brash 14 year old with no perception of the value of money or how to make it.

 

Man, I totally agree with you. I personally did not grow up with a lot of money until I was about 16, that is about the time that my parents started to make some decent money. I have definetly seen both sides (I grew up in a '3rd world' country until I was 12.

I think being upper-class is definetly going to affect my happiness. They say wealth is like health...it is not an issue unless you dont have any, and I want to ensure it never becomes an issue.

Finally this is a banking forum, and I would dare say that at least 80% of the people I know who went into banking did it because of the money (mostly).

 
giocatoredoro:
Man, I totally agree with you. I personally did not grow up with a lot of money until I was about 16, that is about the time that my parents started to make some decent money. I have definetly seen both sides (I grew up in a '3rd world' country until I was 12.

I think being upper-class is definetly going to affect my happiness. They say wealth is like health...it is not an issue unless you dont have any, and I want to ensure it never becomes an issue.

Finally this is a banking forum, and I would dare say that at least 80% of the people I know who went into banking did it because of the money (mostly).

Did you go from poor to rich or from poor to middle class to rich? I can see being poor and transitioning to upper middle class as being a huge upgrade, but what is this both sides that you are talking about?

 

Interesting thread.

I was an analyst years ago (okay, about a decade ago...) and from the sense I get from my clients in IB, things haven't changed drastically in terms of the culture, values, personalities, etc.

Anyhow, while I left banking after my analyst stint without any intention of ever going back, I still don't regret it at all.

All in all, I think it was a valuable experience -- but not in a way that I would've expected. It's less from a professional/career standpoint, but from a personal and life standpoint.

Although I got decent deal flow, I was fortunate to work overseas and got to see the world in a way that most analysts in NY never got -- while the deal mechanics of the transactions I worked on weren't as complex as they would be in the US, I got the kind of interaction and exposure that a consultant would -- working closely with Ministers of Finance, chief executives and family scions at a very young age. I went through hell and back traveling in 3rd world countries with plenty of war stories. I got stuck in a cement plant in Indonesia. I learned how to be the clients' pimp during our roadshows around the world. I was trapped in a city besieged by rioters and a military coup.

I didn't expect any of this, but it helped shape a lot of who I am in terms of perspective.

I can't speak for anyone else, but the absolute biggest gift or benefit of being an IB analyst for me was that the whole experience demystified for me all the things I yearned for when I was in college -- being in exclusive company (banking is a hard job to get and only few get it after college), prestige, money (or at least being surrounded by people who make lots of money), and power (working with influential executives at the world's largest companies and governments).

And demystifying the annals of power and money was really important to me. It allowed me to see things for what they were -- within a year, I was able to say to myself, "is this all there is?" I got to see up close and personal that the MDs, executives, family scions, etc. -- their unhappiness and happiness had nothing to do with the money or power they had. Some were horribly insecure. Conversely, some had very happy family lives. Some were bitter. Some were exceptionally capable bankers, but pathetic human beings. Some were millionaires but lived like "grown up analysts" living in their same studio apartment, and generally being miserable. But again, some were happy as well -- but it sure wasn't money; I saw their happiest days -- when they got married, when their kids are in the office ever so briefly, when they were playing video games/pool with their friends, when they were just having a beer and shooting the shit, when they were watching their favorite team win or their hated team choke in the playoffs -- you don't need to be a millionaire to have any of this. As obvious as it may be intellectually, it's another thing to see this for yourself and really internalize it.

And I really needed to see that when I was in my early 20s when I was a highly competitive yet insecure kid who needed an outlet for this kind of energy. Demystifying the glamour of "money and power" made it that much easier to walk away from it without any regrets -- because you knew EXACTLY what you were walking away from.

Which leads to the flipside -- what I lost in the process, which made me appreciate it so much more when I left. I won't get into my personal stuff as I'm not anonymous here, but all I will say is this -- in a relationship, it's very hard getting pulled in different directions, missing planned dinners, hurting others, etc. However, despite all the macho bravado of being a "playa" it equally sucks being single as it makes whatever free time you have even more lonely -- especially since it's so hard to make time with friends let alone a girlfriend -- so it's easier to wallow in misery in the office for an extra 10-20 hours when you're already in the 80th hour of the week because hey, there's not much to miss with your time off.

Another thing I lost was my sense of optimism. As an analyst, you're surrounded by a bunch of cynical, bitter bankers. And it's easy as a kid in his first job out of college to confuse cynicism/jadedness with maturity. It's like to be an adult, you can't imagine or be optimistic about things. You always have to dismiss things, see its negatives, and settle for "what it is, is what it is." And it was such a bullshit attitude. I found this to be the most mentally toxic aspect of banking -- being surrounded by cynical and jaded old guys (and I stress "guys") can make a 25 year old act like he's in a rush to be 50. And that is what's most pathetic. (As an aside, if you ever get an older dude, say a director, MD, partner, etc. make you feel worthless because you're some pipsqueak of a kid or you're green or inexperienced, know that there's envy that goes both ways -- he's likely more envious of your youth than you are of his money/power, because you always have the hope of getting what he has, but he has NO hope of ever getting his youth back - if you know how to work that envy to your advantage, you can have that person by the balls).

The other thing I almost lost was my health. Some folks are better at maintaining their health than others - some of the analysts/associates I knew managed to keep in pretty good shape. Many didn't. I was one of them, and probably worse (although it probably had to do with other things but I won't get into that). I gained a LOT of weight (in the 60+lb range), I was eating like shit, smoking a pack and a half a day, a borderline alcoholic, and chronically sleep deprived. The few photos I had of my time then -- I just looked like shit.

The other thing I lost in some sense was my youth. I learned that money can buy a lot of things, but it can't buy youth. You're only young once, and there are a LOT of things you can do when you're young that become much more difficult to do when you're older. It's the best time to take risks and to really go out and do what you love -- or at the least, explore and discover what it is that you love.

In some ways though, the lessons I learned about time and money by losing 3 years of my youth in banking helped me gain perhaps 10 more years of my youth. Past 7 years or so I've never been healthier and look younger now in my 30s than I ever did in my 20s. And I do have to thank my time in IB for being one of the experiences that helped me see that.

I don't think being an IB analyst is the only way to learn all these lessons or to demystify the "glamour" of money and power, but in my case it was the medicine that helped me really see things a different way -- it was a huge gift because it gives me far greater confidence to "do my own thing" and to carve out a life that I'm happy with, because I know exactly what I'm giving up in terms of tradeoffs. I can't say being an IB analyst will help others "take risks" to forge their own path, but it certainly helped me realize what risks I can take because the alternative of living a "safer" or "predictable" path just isn't compelling to me.

That's the biggest gift for me actually - that while having more money and more power is certainly nice (okay, it's great), but I got to see firsthand as an IB analyst that you don't need money/power/prestige to be absolutely ecstatic about yourself or where you're at -- which has allowed me to experience firsthand just that very thing. So any additional money or power is just icing on the cake, and not something I absolutely "need".

Alex Chu [email protected] www.mbaapply.com http://mbaapply.blogspot.com

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

but i think it still doesn't quite hit the heart of the issue; in fact, some of it may run counter (although respectfully so). the point i am trying to make, is that alot of us are scared to take that leap, on the faith of our own intelligence/ability/whatever you want to call it, to do something just absolutely amazing. this is the "tragedy of our condition" so to speak, i think. it's not about being a millionaire, or having a family, or power, etc etc; it's about taking what we have, and maybe even the money we make from these great finance jobs (if we decide to forego being too adventurous), and putting our focus on something so drastic and amazing that even if we fail, we can't fail, cause at the least we'll help someone else succeed.

i mean, i guess it depends on your school of thought at the end of the day; my thing is, i am thankful to be gifted with what i have, whether it be the wall street connections or the ivy-league schooling, and maybe i have screwed up by not taking that daring leap yet, but i plan to, because i owe it to those who haven't had the fortune of this background; in fact, for me personally, i think it's the least i owe

 
wallstreetguy25:
but i think it still doesn't quite hit the heart of the issue; in fact, some of it may run counter (although respectfully so). the point i am trying to make, is that alot of us are scared to take that leap, on the faith of our own intelligence/ability/whatever you want to call it, to do something just absolutely amazing. this is the "tragedy of our condition" so to speak, i think. it's not about being a millionaire, or having a family, or power, etc etc; it's about taking what we have, and maybe even the money we make from these great finance jobs (if we decide to forego being too adventurous), and putting our focus on something so drastic and amazing that even if we fail, we can't fail, cause at the least we'll help someone else succeed.

i mean, i guess it depends on your school of thought at the end of the day; my thing is, i am thankful to be gifted with what i have, whether it be the wall street connections or the ivy-league schooling, and maybe i have screwed up by not taking that daring leap yet, but i plan to, because i owe it to those who haven't had the fortune of this background; in fact, for me personally, i think it's the least i owe

I'm a little confused by our post, as I wasn't really trying to make any point, other than sharing my own personal experience and what I learned. Take from it what you will.

From what I think you're trying to say, in my view it's quite simple.

You either have the balls, or you don't.

Do you go over and talk to that girl you see across the room?

That's what it's about, whether literally or figuratively. You are sitting there and you decide to take action, or you don't.

You can choose to ruminate on a sociological explanation for why guys in similar circumstances may or may not get the girl, but when you're sitting there in that room, it still comes down to whether YOU yourself will actually go over and talk to that girl across the room. Or you can spend all your time ruminating, and some other guy who isn't as good looking as you or as charming as you will simply walk over to the girl, introduce himself, figure it out as he goes along, and before you know it - he's walked out of the room with her (and then once that happens telling yourself that she wasn't all that).

Trying to rationalize why you can or cannot get up and talk to the girl isn't particularly helpful in getting you to go and talk to the girl.

Again, when you are in that room, you either have the balls to go over to talk to her, or you don't. You don't need to be a clinical psychologist to properly assess the situation before deciding. Leading with your heart will almost always propel you forward - you may succeed, you may fail, but you're living. You're taking action and your head will follow. Conversely, leading with your head will almost always get you nowhere - it'll lead to inertia, inaction and analysis-paralysis.

There is no perfect girl. There is no perfect opportunity, perfect career, perfect anything. Just choices.

Alex Chu [email protected] www.mbaapply.com http://mbaapply.blogspot.com

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

and solve it; i mean, you did go to harvard/princeton/penn/stanford/etc; if you can't do it, who can?

that's kind of what i'm trying to get at i guess; and obviously, i am guilty of not doing it myself, as i am in investment banking as well; but i hope to; it's not about startups vs finance or millionaire vs steady life; it's about getting things done in a world where youth + intelligence is an asset not to be squandered

 

I think it is important to focus on the reality of a situation before introspection drives you crazy. In effect one is committing themselves to a tough grounding in business and finance for two years, that will be painful but useful.

More than anything, however, this thread stresses the importance of a constant process of readdressing goals and not becoming stuck in anyone particular path out of convenience. There is plenty of time to go on to bigger, better, and more useful things.

 

Great thread. Here are my thoughts.

I don't trust all the "lead with your heart" talk. Think about 3/6/12 months - 2/3/5/10 years from now when, as an entrepreneur, you haven't the money to pay the bills or feed your three-yr-old daughter, much less pay your employees. Your house will soon be repossessed. You invested way too much of your personal wealth into this business, and it's going belly-up. You're three months late on car payments, and the price of gas is $5.00/gal. Fuck. What did I get myself into? Follow my heart? What a stupid idea. Most businesses fail. I should've taken the money, lived frugally through my 2-10 yrs of banking and then started a business. At least then, I would've had some cash to fall back on. By then, I would've had the contacts to make my business succeed.
--It's thoughts like these that keep me far away from jumping into a start-up before I've developed some hard skills. I may start a business and take the said "leap", but not without developing more business skills.

Wallstreetguy- you and I use the same rationale for completely different things. I often think about how lucky I am to get into IB. Think about the number of people from non-targets and targets that would do anything to get in. A lot right? And the hours are awful, the work is stressful; the work/life balance nonexistent, but people are still beating down the doors of Wall Street firms to get in. But now think about the number of people all over the world who are working similar hours and dealing with similar levels of stress for a fraction of the pay. I don't know a migrant worker who doesn't have two jobs - Latino workers especially. I know Latino workers that pull similar hours to an I-banker and they have several kids at home and they are working for $8/hr. I will gladly work in IB for all of them because they don't have the opportunities I have. I need to take advantage of this IB gig, for myself, and for all the people who can't.

Lastly, I think people took offense to AltESV's comment about coming from wealth because - at first glance - he showed no empathy whatsoever. I'm not talking about empathy with regard to understanding what it's like to come from a developing country, to grow up extremely impoverished, etc. I'm talking about empathy towards the average, middle-class US citizen. He can't even imagine living in a small house, driving a Hyundai or flying coach. Yes, I may be taking it too literally, but he literally said that he can't even imagine it. How could someone not be able to imagine it? I imagine what its like to experience a lot of things: being rich, being poor, losing loved ones, starting a business, going into IB, living in a different country. I imagine things all the time. I assume AltESV can imagine such a thing (correct me if I'm wrong); rather, he's imagined it, and just doesn't want to live that reality. Honestly, at first glance, I said, "what a prick - he can't even imagine what it's like to not be rich. What a fuckhead." I don't think that anymore; I think I read too much into it, but I understand if he just doesn't want to live such a life. Not many do. We all want to be rich.

 
F9 - Update:
Great thread. Here are my thoughts.

I don't trust all the "lead with your heart" talk. Think about 3/6/12 months - 2/3/5/10 years from now when, as an entrepreneur, you haven't the money to pay the bills or feed your three-yr-old daughter, much less pay your employees. Your house will soon be repossessed. You invested way too much of your personal wealth into this business, and it's going belly-up. You're three months late on car payments, and the price of gas is $5.00/gal. Fuck. What did I get myself into? Follow my heart? What a stupid idea. Most businesses fail. I should've taken the money, lived frugally through my 2-10 yrs of banking and then started a business. At least then, I would've had some cash to fall back on. By then, I would've had the contacts to make my business succeed.
--It's thoughts like these that keep me far away from jumping into a start-up before I've developed some hard skills. I may start a business and take the said "leap", but not without developing more business skills.

Ignore your heart at your peril. Don't confuse cynicism with naivete. It becomes a common refrain to use Force Majeure (Acts of God) scenarios to justify the decision NOT to do something. With all due respect, what you expressed is simply a rationalization for your fear - and nothing more.

There is never a good time to start a business. You can always defer it to "tomorrow". There's always more excuses. When you're young, you don't have any experience, money or a "fall back option" if things go bad. When you're older, you have family responsibilities and more to lose.

You will either do it, or you won't. It's not about the "right time" but about your level of commitment and willingness to overcome your own fear of the unknown. You'll never be fully prepared for what's in store.

In other words, it's not letting tactical constraints dictate whether you have the balls to follow through on what you believe in -- you'll figure out a way to manage the tacitcal stuff along the way. (and I'm not saying to quit your day job if you don't know what your dreams are; if you don't know, then don't jump just yet! But if you do know, then the only thing stopping you is fear).

Statistical probabilities are valuable for making tactical decisions, but the important decisions - following your dreams, marrying, having kids, etc. is about self-belief that you can do it and takes a leap of faith. Do you let the fact that divorces are common dictate your decision to marry the woman of your dreams? Do you let the fact that kids are expensive and risky dictate your decision to have them? Do you let the fact that businesses fail dictate your decision to start something you believe in?

Yes, failure happens a lot. But how such failures impact the folks involved are not as dire as you think. You won't escape unscathed from any failure (whether in business or in life), but you'll survive, recover and even thrive most of the time. Anyhow, so much of the success that happens comes in the wake of prior failures and missteps. Most of us don't get it "right" the first time. You are who you are because of how you responded to your mistakes/failures/disappointments, and not from your successes or accomplishments.

If your business fails, your house won't get repossessed if you set up your business properly. You can raise your family without needing the IB bonus. You aren't eating Ramen noodles as an entrepreneur. You'll be surprised how little your standard of living changes when you "follow your heart" to do something else.

The biggest hurdle is your own mentality -- it's taking that leap of faith that you can do it. Yes, it can be very hard to continually believe in yourself especially when things don't look too good -- but it's also not as scary or as impossible as it looks.

You can either choose to go through life trying to prevent bad things from happening, or you can go through life trying to seek out the good things.

Again, ignore your heart at your peril. If you don't go after what you dream for, you'll likely live in comfort -- you'll rarely vulnerable, and you'll rarely if ever experience the heartbreak of disappointment. But you'll also have ABSOLUTELY no idea how much more fulfillment and joy can come with the good days that happen along the way as well. That is a guarantee.

Following your gut/heart/dreams/whatever isn't dependent on whether you actually reach the "goal" -- it's a lifestyle and process. It may not always be comfortable, but it's usually a lot more worthwhile.

Alex Chu [email protected] www.mbaapply.com http://mbaapply.blogspot.com

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

i clearly share some of your sentiments, or else i would be doing what i'm preaching, which i'm not, i am an investment banker. all i'm saying is that, at the end of the day:

1) i feel like i have an obligation to do more than become partner at a pe shop and rake in cash; i feel like i am "smart" enough to do something fantastic, and therefore, i am obliged to

2) a "startup" is just one possibility; curing aids is another; anything that is reshaping an industry/serving an all-encompassing need; also, i hope ppl also take away that starting a start-up is not the win-all or bust scenario that many ppl seem to be consistently laying out, in various threads on this board; i have put up the link x-number of times, and i will put it up again: www.paulgraham.com/articles i trust him when he says what he does about risk mitigation and the startup life

 

Hey, I just read both the Larry Page article and the Paul Graham article. Both were excellent.

You really need to know yourself when making your first job/career decision. You need to understand your risk tolerance. I think I know mine: with around $25k in student loans and no other assets to speak of - I'll pay off the loans and build some cash while developing some transferable skills. For someone coming from an Ivy with no debt and probably some assets (maybe even some inheritance down the road as well), others may be able to afford taking more risks. I'm really glad I studied finance so I could get to know all of this; I doubt I would have any idea about my risk tolerance as any other major.

 

I too was in a similar position (kind of). Lots of debt, no real assets, no work experience other than internships.

While I think banking was definitely a valuable experience, in hindsight I think the debt/lack of money is actually less of an issue than people sometimes think.

Sure, all businesses require some money, but for most of what I'm doing now (e.g. Internet businesses) there isn't much capital required. So the chances of truly failing are pretty low unless you just give up.

Obviously if you want to open a retail store or something along those lines, yeah, it's more risk... but why you'd want to do that in this day and age is beyond me, seems quite tough for the possible upside.

Anyway, you certainly aren't making a mistake by doing banking now - a true mistake would be some dead-end job that really leads nowhere. Those are the worst. Just keep in mind your ultimate goal as you go through it and don't get sidetracked into doing something you don't want to do.

 

all great points; thanks for the added insight, along with everyone else; dosk i think you put it well: "Anyway, you certainly aren't making a mistake by doing banking now - a true mistake would be some dead-end job that really leads nowhere. Those are the worst. Just keep in mind your ultimate goal as you go through it and don't get sidetracked into doing something you don't want to do."

 

F9 - To be fair, I said I can't imagine doing those things for the rest of my life. Admittedly, even saying that was engaging in a bit of hyperbole—as you pointed out, what I meant was that I can imagine it but it's not what I want. And I don't really need to imagine those things now, as I live in a small apartment (a house would be a huge upgrade!), fly coach (and seriously wince at the prices), and, ok, I drive an Acura (although I honestly wish I had a more comfortable/fuel-efficient car—speed and handling are low priorities when you sit in traffic for 2+ hours a day and gas is >$4 a gallon).

I can see how I kind of sounded like a fuckhead, but thank you for not taking it too deeply.

Sorry for derailing this thread a bit, this really has produced some of the most thought-provoking comments I've ever seen on WSO. Thanks to everyone for sharing your insights.

 
F9 - Update:

Alex Chu - Do you think that everyone should be an entrepreneur? Why/why not? If so, who would be the entrepreneurs employ?

Good point, F9. Entrepreneurship is not for everyone. Many successful entrepreneurs will readily admit this. It takes all kinds to make the world, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss others as being scaredy cats if they aren't itching for entrepreneurship.

 

Maybe it comes across that way because that's what he did personally.

But I think Alex's message - one that it is very difficult to disagree with - is the following:

"Do what you love. If you're interested in banking and really want to do it, sure, go ahead. But if things don't turn out as expected, and you get more interested in something else, go do that. Don't be pre-occupied with whether or not it's the 'right' time to do something or whether it's the 'right' thing to do because you never know and there is rarely a 'right' time."

And yes, entrepreneurship is not for everyone. But I don't think Alex is saying that it is.

What IS for everyone? Doing what you want to do and not settling.

Whether that's doing banking rather than a less stressful and less rewarding other job, or whether that's choosing to go to a smaller firm because you personally are more excited about it. And yes, it could well mean starting something on your own as well - whether an organization, a company, or who knows even a church (just throwing ideas out there) - though it certainly doesn't have to be that.

 

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Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

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Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

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Et aut libero est animi voluptate qui architecto. Beatae sint molestiae quas vitae blanditiis. Qui culpa qui cumque praesentium id a recusandae.

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Illum eos modi est possimus voluptatem nemo veniam. Et esse tempora temporibus sit accusantium id. Quibusdam eum cum velit sed itaque velit vel.

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com

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