If you tip you're an idiot

Why the **** people tip is beyond my comprehension.

If you're at a restaurant/eating out and someone brings you your food and at the end of the meal you owe them $30, then why would you tip them $10 just for carrying a plate of food back and forth. At the end of the meal it makes no difference whatsoever if you give them that extra money.

A waiter will get at least minimum wage no matter what because even if their base rate is below minimum wage their employer has to by law make up the money. They do not deserve some stupidly high pay for their menial work. I do not have some high paying job, i am in full time education, if I am lucky enough to be able to eat out or order a takeaway then i most likely can not afford to give extra money away, what a stupid ****ing thing to do.

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich? It's carrying a plate of food ten feet to a table, a monkey can be trained to do it, and they do not deserve wages higher than people who were smart enough to graduate high school and not do some dumbass work.

Waiters are slaves. You make a living waiting on other people bringing them food and drink. Its been around for thousands of years except back then you were rewarded with your life and punished with lashes or death. Waiters are modern day servants.

 

You know what the worst about tipping is? When people at fast food restaurants EXPECT a tip. At my food court there are a few places where the person literally picks up a pre-cooked sandwich, puts it in a grill, and hands it to me when its done. And when you go to pay theres an option to tip. I always hit $0 because what the fuck did the guy actually do, and they always give me cold stares as if they are entitled to 20% because of their 20 seconds of work.

 

You pay for the service you get, just like in any other industry. If everyone stopped tipping the owners would have to pay for the difference, which would raise the prices of the food. So since people are going to pay for it anyways, you two are just being freeloaders and cheap.

 
Abdel:
Abdel:
UFO will come in soon crying about how horrible non-tipping people are.

My 2nd message, on page 1.

Tooked some time but it happened.

Abdel wins, yet again.

See you at the conference.

PS, get a life.

Get busy living
 
fitnessmodel:
Why the **** people tip is beyond my comprehension.

If you're at a restaurant/eating out and someone brings you your food and at the end of the meal you owe them $30, then why would you tip them $10 just for carrying a plate of food back and forth. At the end of the meal it makes no difference whatsoever if you give them that extra money. [Apparently it does or you wouldn't be making this thread]

A waiter will get at least minimum wage no matter what because even if their base rate is below minimum wage their employer has to by law make up the money. [That sounds like a dream come true dealing with assholes all day, I'd rather do far easier jobs for minimum wage] They do not deserve some stupidly high pay for their menial work [If you are broke then I highly doubt you are going to be paying "stupidly high amounts in tips"]. I do not have some high paying job, i am in full time education, if I am lucky enough to be able to eat out or order a takeaway then i most likely can not afford to give extra money away, what a stupid ****ing thing to do. [It is also customary, and yeah, while the employer might be responsible for making up the 'minimum wage' that is hardly enticing]

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich [Yeah probably, but I imagine the service would represent the price of the restaurant you are eating at]? It's carrying a plate of food ten feet to a table [I am guessing you have never been a waiter (me neither)], a monkey can be trained to do it, and they do not deserve wages higher than people who were smart enough to graduate high school and not do some dumbass work. [I would be willing to bet that most waiters graduated High school]

Waiters are slaves.[I didn't think that slaves got paid] You make a living waiting on other people bringing them food and drink. Its been around for thousands of years except back then you were rewarded with your life and punished with lashes or death. Waiters are modern day servants [That is a dumb fucking comparison, that is like saying anyone that works in the service industry is a servant (which makes more sense actually than your contradictory "slave" comment].

I understand being broke, but before I go out to eat I take into account that on top of the menu price, I will have to pay tax and tip.

 
Best Response

First of all: "fitnessmodel" = douchiest tag ever.

Secondly: don't you have some lame blog you can post tripe like this on?

Finally, to address the "substance" of your post: not tipping at the end of the meal makes you what economists would call a freerider. The waiter probably gets paid something like $2.50/hour (not minimum wage as you claim) and his whole pay structure is based on the assumption that people will tip around 15%. So he or she is waiting on you (taking your order, bringing your food or drinks, making sure your experience is going well) based on the assumption that you will compensate him at the end of the meal. If a customer like you takes advantage of this assumption and fails to tip then you are being a freerider and getting a benefit without paying anything for it, because the price of the waiter is not built into the price of the food.

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

"Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Capitalize on what comes."
 
TEX:
First of all: "fitnessmodel" = douchiest tag ever.

Secondly: don't you have some lame blog you can post tripe like this on?

Finally, to address the "substance" of your post: not tipping at the end of the meal makes you what economists would call a freerider. The waiter probably gets paid something like $2.50/hour (not minimum wage as you claim) and his whole pay structure is based on the assumption that people will tip around 15%. So he or she is waiting on you (taking your order, bringing your food or drinks, making sure your experience is going well) based on the assumption that you will compensate him at the end of the meal. If a customer like you takes advantage of this assumption and fails to tip then you are being a freerider and getting a benefit without paying anything for it, because the price of the waiter is not built into the price of the food.

You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

Damn.

 
TEX:
You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

What about people that tip and drive in the shoulder? I don't EXPECT to be let in at the bottleneck, but I find the weak link (aka Slowest Common Denominator) and fit myself in.

My name is Nicky, but you can call me Dre.
 
aempirei:
TEX:
You are like the guy who drives on the shoulder to get around a traffic jam thinking you are so smart and then expects people to let you in near the bottleneck. Yeah, everyone thought of doing that same thing but no one else did it because they aren't assholes.

What about people that tip and drive in the shoulder? I don't EXPECT to be let in at the bottleneck, but I find the weak link (aka Slowest Common Denominator) and fit myself in.

It doesn't make you smart--anyone else could have done this, too. The rest of us just have common decency.

Array
 

refusing to tip does not make you a freerider. your amount of tip (or lack there of) does not in any way affect the quality of the service you recieve. you gain nothing when you allow other people to tip for you, unlike an actual freerider who gains somethting from the work of others. your confusing the concept of a freerider with the concept of just being an jerk.

 

service IS better in countries / cultures where tipping is expected.

An example - the other day at brunch the waiter came by 5times and refilled our water glasses and coffee without ever being asked.

I haven't been to Australia where there is no tipping but their base wage is at least $20/hr (and drinks are more expensive)

Tip 15% for average service, 20% for great service, and less than 15% if it was really shitty, that's just how it is in our culture and i dont see things changing anytime soon

WSO Content & Social Media. Follow us: Linkedin, IG, Facebook, Twitter.
 
fitnessmodel:

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich?

Because it's not the same amount of work? Unless you order a $1000 sandwich, a bill that comes out to $1000 probably had proportionally more work to do; a $1000 bill could conceivably come from a party of 10-20, whereas a cheaper bill (say, $100) probably had fewer people, and thus less work for the waiter.

 
CHItizen:
fitnessmodel:

And why do idiot waiters expect 15-20% tip no matter how large the bill is? If I order food that costs $1000, why should a waiter expect $200 for the same amount of work as if I had ordered a $5 sandwich?

Because it's not the same amount of work? Unless you order a $1000 sandwich, a bill that comes out to $1000 probably had proportionally more work to do; a $1000 bill could conceivably come from a party of 10-20, whereas a cheaper bill (say, $100) probably had fewer people, and thus less work for the waiter.

Unless you ordered a $700 bottle of wine..........but, then you can afford to pay a $200 tip

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
 

Go out to dinner in South Beach where most places automatically charge gratuity to the bill and you will understand why it is better to have a server working for gratuity.

Also, servers are paid around $2-3hr and restaurant profit margins are still terrible and have an extremely high failure rate. Basically, most restaurants can't afford to pay servers minimum wage and if a gratuity is factored into the bill your service will suck.

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
 

I share the same frustration as OP. First, I've worked at 5 restaurants throughout high-school and university, so I understand what tipping means to waiters. However, the whole system of tipping is awkward. If I don't like the service, I don't even want to pay even a cent in tips. I don't even like it when someone gives me exceptional service because I don't like to be obligated in paying more tips than I need to. I just want my food! Don't get me wrong, I do tip but I go out less because of the added cost. But the struggle and confusion between customers and waiters is hurting the restaurant business. Restaurants should just eliminate tipping and jack up the cost for customers. If customers are going to pay anyways, then get rid of tipping system and remove the conflict. If waiters gives bad services, then just don't go to that restaurant and let the manager deal with the waiter's attitude.

 

Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

 
Rupert Pupkin:
Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

yo dawg you need to tip this guy cause u just got served

 
Rupert Pupkin:
Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

This was mean and stupid.

 
Rupert Pupkin:
Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

True I know some other people like that.

Think there names are

Sorros Ray Dalio Icahn Simons

But, yea man go with the heard, do what ever your financial advisor says every one is doing.

 
Rupert Pupkin:
Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

True I know some other people like that.

Think there names are

Sorros Ray Dalio Icahn Simons

But, yea man go with the heard, do what ever your financial advisory says every one is doing.

 
blastoise:
Rupert Pupkin:
Look, you're obviously one of those douchebags that likes to have a contrarian point of view about everything, and your friends probably think it makes you unique and interesting. The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living, know that you're full of shit and you're just cheap. The upside is that people like you don't make it anywhere near the offices that we work in because you are convinced that these opinions are acceptable to spew during an interview or lunch, and nobody else sees it as unique or interesting. They see it for what it is- a kid who is too immature or cheap to understand how the world really works, despite their own personal beliefs.

You may want to rethink your position on tipping service industry workers, as you will more than likely spend the majority of your life being one of them.

True I know some other people like that.

Think there names are

Sorros Ray Dalio Icahn Simons

But, yea man go with the heard, do what ever your financial advisory says every one is doing.

You make some very good points blastoise. Thanks for sharing your extremely valuable insight and your time for putting this up. I look forward to seeing more of your, as always, high quality posts. You sure have lived up to everything I personally have come to expect of you here in this post. Keep up the good work champ.

“...all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” - Schopenhauer
 

''The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living'' - Talking like he's carrying the world on his shoulders.

Dude, you got suckered into paying hefty tuitions only to be able to look at excel spreadsheets 14 hours a day. You need to calm down and accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you when it comes to tipping.

As far as I'm concern, teachnically, OP is correct. The person is getting PAID to serve people. Now if you think that the economic value of that action is not enough rewarded, then that's your problem.

 
Abdel:
As far as I'm concern, teachnically, OP is correct. The person is getting PAID to serve people. Now if you think that the economic value of that action is not enough rewarded, then that's your problem.
Technically you and OP are both wrong. In this country, getting paid means the minimum wage (at least). Servers get paid below minimum wage, and therefore rely on you to fill the gap between what they are given by their employer and what they should actually be getting for providing their service (which for all the work they do should not be minimum wage anyways). You don't have a problem paying full price to buy clothes at a store, where the sales associates get payed on commissions and a wage, but you are still paying for their service. In this case you just pay a higher price for the clothes and the company pays the employees wage, but you are still paying them indirectly you just may not think about it because it's such a common place, but rest assured the cost is factored in there. But now because the middle man is being taken out (employer) and it lies on you to pay for a service you get and people call it a "tip" you suddenly have a problem with it. Stop being so cynical and do your part for society, people who work deserve to get paid accordingly. It's people with your logic who do all for themselves and then drive this country into the ground because they don't think things through.
 
Abdel:
''The rest of us, adults who actually work for a living'' - Talking like he's carrying the world on his shoulders.

Dude, you got suckered into paying hefty tuitions only to be able to look at excel spreadsheets 14 hours a day. You need to calm down and accept that not everyone has the same opinion as you when it comes to tipping.

As far as I'm concern, teachnically, OP is correct. The person is getting PAID to serve people. Now if you think that the economic value of that action is not enough rewarded, then that's your problem.

The VA paid my tuition in full, so I didn't get suckered into anything. Also, the premise that tipping is an opinion is ridiculous. Severs are paid a ridiculously small hourly wage of around $2-3 and rely on tips for any actual income. If you refuse to tip everywhere you go, you'll probably end up being at one of those places again and have some dude spitting in your shit. I don't think it makes sense to save $10 and risk having some pissed off underpaid 20 year old fucking with your food.

 
Rupert Pupkin:

Also, the premise that tipping is an opinion is ridiculous. Severs are paid a ridiculously small hourly wage of around $2-3 and rely on tips for any actual income. If you refuse to tip everywhere you go, you'll probably end up being at one of those places again and have some dude spitting in your shit. I don't think it makes sense to save $10 and risk having some pissed off underpaid 20 year old fucking with your food.

In sum, there is a tipping mafia that will break my leg if I don't tip? Seems like you're only argument for tipping is the fear that the server will do something to your food.

If he spits in your food = lawsuit on the restaurent = he gets fired and you win $.

Also, as ridiculous as his salary might be, it reflects the economic value of the service he is providing. If it hurts you, take your own money and pay him a good salary.

 
AlphaGeneration:
I think what the op is forgetting is that in the US, the price of the food/drink doesn't include tip, but in other countries where tipping isnt required, the same food/drink is grossed up for an implied tip to make up for the difference. We can switch to a no-tipping paradigm, but expect to pay 15-20% more.

So let me get this straight. With all the inflation that Ben ''Spaceship'' Bernanke is creating and all the taxes and regulations voted by these same employees that makes employment more costly (which make my food more expansive), on top of all of that, I have to pay another 20%?

Are you f*cking insane?

 
Abdel:
AlphaGeneration:
I think what the op is forgetting is that in the US, the price of the food/drink doesn't include tip, but in other countries where tipping isnt required, the same food/drink is grossed up for an implied tip to make up for the difference. We can switch to a no-tipping paradigm, but expect to pay 15-20% more.

So let me get this straight. With all the inflation that Ben ''Spaceship'' Bernanke is creating and all the taxes and regulations voted by these same employees that makes employment more costly (which make my food more expansive), on top of all of that, I have to pay another 20%?

Are you f*cking insane?

You're right, restaurant owners will happily take that hit to their bottom line when they have to pay employees a higher salary

 

Just think of it like this, if no one tipped, severely under qualified people would take these jobs and people worth more than minimum wage would look for work elsewhere. So you would then end up with shit service everywhere you went, and putting your order in at Ruth Chris to the illegal immigrant Pablo. Now do you really want that? Probably not. Stop being a cheap freeloader.

 
historiclegend:
Just think of it like this, if no one tipped, severely under qualified people would take these jobs and people worth more than minimum wage would look for work elsewhere. So you would then end up with shit service everywhere you went, and putting your order in at Ruth Chris to the illegal immigrant Pablo. Now do you really want that? Probably not. Stop being a cheap freeloader.

First of all muchacho, if the service had to become super shitty, guess what would happen? FREE MARKET SOLUTION = robots or whatever. As far as I'm concern, I can go pick up the food and beer myself.

Secondo my gringo, how am I a freeloader when I'm PAYING?

Thirdo, go back to mexico

 
Abdel:
historiclegend:
Just think of it like this, if no one tipped, severely under qualified people would take these jobs and people worth more than minimum wage would look for work elsewhere. So you would then end up with shit service everywhere you went, and putting your order in at Ruth Chris to the illegal immigrant Pablo. Now do you really want that? Probably not. Stop being a cheap freeloader.

First of all muchacho, if the service had to become super shitty, guess what would happen? FREE MARKET SOLUTION = robots or whatever. As far as I'm concern, I can go pick up the food and beer myself.

Secondo my gringo, how am I a freeloader when I'm PAYING?

Thirdo, go back to mexico

Primero: Good luck getting a girl to go out with you by telling her "hey I am going to take you to this really nice restaurant, but uhh I'm kind of a cheap skate so you need to go and serve on yourself, if you get thirsty, or want to eat, or your order is messed up, or if the table is dirty, or anything you may need, your going to need to do it yourself, and/or work with the chef or manager to get it done, instead of sitting down with me and talking and relaxing so I can feed you some stupid line about how pretty your eyes are so I can get in your pants (or try to any ways)."

Segundo: You are paying for the food, by not tipping you are not paying for the service. Therefore you are freeloading off of everyone else who IS paying for the service that you seem to think is only worth $2.50 (but yet I am sure you think YOU are worthy of a amazing bonus at whatever dead end job you are currently employed in.

Tercero: You only make fun of yourself, and add to your f*cking ignorance because you don't know how to spell anything in Spanish, and by calling him a "Gringo" you are in fact acknowledging that he is not of Spanish descent, and so by telling him to go back to Mexico is completely counter intuitive.

Cuarto: Just stop what you are doing, and slap yourself for being so ignorant.

 

Saying go back to Mexico and using slang like gringo may be racist?

And you obviously have never worked in a restaurant before. Waiters and waitresses do a lot more than bring you food. The guys who clean the table get tipped out by them, so you would have to clean your own table as stated above. And any refill would have to be gotten by yourself, and when you decide you want a side of bordelaise sauce with your filet you'll have to get that for yourself. You are making a horrible argument. You can't do all the things a waiter does. And if no one were to tip, why would qualified people go into that field? THEY WOULDN'T. Simple as that.

When you go to a bar do you like looking at ugly as fuck bartenders? Probably not. The premium is paid in tips. That's why they take the job.

And back to the women part, obviously you don't score with the more attractive part of the population, so no one cares what your opinion is anyways. (For those reading, always pay for your dates meal)

 

It's a cultural thing. People serving in Japan don't make any more than their counterparts in the US. But they don't stand there expecting to be respected and recognized for the huge contribution of dishing out a tray.

Problem is not that "this is how the overall economy works", problem is that it has become an expectation at a national scale. The logic that absence of tipping would reduce the quality of people working in this industry is flimsy at best.

You only need to look at countries where tipping is not the norm. Often, the service is in fact better there.

 

Robots? Where are you from where they have robots that serve food?

Yea I guess you're paying, but you're also stiffing the waitress too. Cool guy you are.

I've been to lunch with people that don't tip, and I always make up the difference because of how embarrassed I would feel to leave without tipping properly. I never go out with them again either. So good luck in life bro with your attitude.

 

^^^ looks similar to...

Abdel:
historiclegend:
I'm just going to assume you're not from America and call it a night. You're fucking retarded.

Yay, personal attacks as a final counter argument.

Abdel: 1 Mexicanos: 0

Good night muchacho.

And I'll be dead by the time that will happen. People that aren't antisocial appreciate interaction with real people when they go out, at least I do. Otherwise what's the point of going out, or not going to fast food?

 

Okay, a few things here:

1) In the US, tipping is normal. In other countries where it isn't, the prices are higher. There is a generally accepted amount to pay the server to bring it to a roughly equivalent price, maybe a little higher or lower depending on the service.

2) Servers work for their money, it's not like they're sitting on their asses all day. Do they need a BA or BS to do their job? No, and that's why most servers make around $8-$12/hr (though unlike IBD, they're not getting over 40 hours per week).

3) If you don't think a server deserves a tip for bringing you food and/or drink, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING OUT. If you don't want to follow basic social conventions, why involve yourself in that part of society? Besides the fact that you'd look like a tool every time your friends/family/coworkers wanted to go out to eat.

4) When you tip the server, you're also tipping the busboy, barback, line cooks, or doorman depending on the situation. This may vary from 0-40% of what you've tipped.

5) If you're throwing down a tip on a $1,000 meal, there's most likely a reason. You're most likely in a fine dining establishment, where you're not only tipping the server to bring you your food and drink, but you're also tipping him for his/her knowledge of the food and drink being served to you.

6) If you're in a bar ordering drinks, or anywhere ordering anything for that matter, you're really tipping the server because you're a lazy fuck that won't walk to get their food or learn how to prepare it.

It's really pretty simple: if you don't want to tip then move to Europe, get off your lazy ass, or just don't tip. Don't tell me, despite the time I took to write this, I don't give a fuck about your tipping habits.

PS- Remember, when the server you never tip at that shitty deli you eat at has a cut in his lip and spits in your food, resulting in you contracting Hep C:

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
Abdel:
bfin:
Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

Well, you're not even american, you're african.

Where did I say anything about being American or not American? All I said is that you don't live in America. Nothing about being American. Of course with your tendencies you immediately point out a none important factor. Good Luck.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
bfin:
Why are you guys arguing what happens in America with someone who doesn't even live in America(Abdel)?

This confused me.

I didn't figure out that he was from America until after I had already started. Took me long enough to figure out though.

To Abdel: If you ever visit, my advice is to tip, unless you want to be thought of as a schmuck. Pay for your dates here too.

 

As the saying goes, "When in Rome, do as the Romans." In the United States, we tip servers because of the nature of the restaurant industry--the restaurant industry has some of the worst profit margins and highest company turnover rates of any industry. People are very entrepreneurial in the U.S. and as a result there are countless restaurants that are in fierce competition with one another. Most restaurants just barely get by. Through laws and economic and cultural evolution servers typically get paid well under minimum wage. As a result of the depressing of labor costs, food can be served at more competitive prices. However, since servers make as little as $1.25/hour, the cultural norm is that for average or above service the customer helps make up the difference with their tips.

If you don't want to tip then that's between you and God. Those times when I don't want to tip I typically cook or make my own drinks. But we do live in a free society, so if you don't want to tip then that's your right. I tip because I recognize 1) the "economic arbitrage" that I'm receiving in better food prices and 2) that the servers are not being paid living wages as a result of the economic reality of fierce competition. Given these realities, I make a deliberate choice about when to go out to a place where tipping is expected, and when I make conscious, adult choice to patronage said restaurant then I submit myself to the cultural reality of the situation and tip. And I happily tip because people matter, and I tip without coercion by government, which means my choice to do what is right or wrong is FREE.

Array
 

I don't agree with the premise: "When in Rome, do as the Romans." Following that logic, if I was in Germany in the 1940's then I should of followed that same premise: ''When in Nazi Germany, do as the Nazi's'' i.e. kill jewish people, rat on my jewish neighbors to the SS and so on.

That being said, my point remains the same, walking 5 feet to bring me a beer is not worth $2/hour, let alone a tip. Actually, it should be free because I'm spending money in that place.

Also, when you say ''when I make conscious, adult choice '', I consider my position to be as conscious and as adult since it is based on economics and not on fear and social pressure.

 
Abdel:
I don't agree with the premise: "When in Rome, do as the Romans." Following that logic, if I was in Germany in the 1940's then I should of followed that same premise: ''When in Nazi Germany, do as the Nazi's'' i.e. kill jewish people, rat on my jewish neighbors to the SS and so on.

That being said, my point remains the same, walking 5 feet to bring me a beer is not worth $2/hour, let alone a tip. Actually, it should be free because I'm spending money in that place.

Also, when you say ''when I make conscious, adult choice '', I consider my position to be as conscious and as adult since it is based on economics and not on fear and social pressure.

So taking off your shoes in an Asian person's household is akin to being complicit in the genocide of the Jews...

Yeah....

Let me sum up the position as this--if you don't want to tip then that's your right. There are consequences to your freedom and if you accept the possible social consequences then whether or not you tip a server is between you and your conscience and/or you and God. As for me and most of the rest of America (as we are, in fact, Americans), we will continue to act on our own consciences and happily tip those who work for an honest living. If that makes me an idiot then so be it.

Array
 

Well, I'm not judging you and certainly not calling you an idiot.

However, going back at your premise "When in Rome, do as the Romans", I still think it is a wrong premise to base your arguments on.

It doesn't have anything to do with asians, nor nazi's nor romans. The point of that premise is, ''hey man, in our territory, we do certain type of things, so you better do them if you want us to be cool with you''.

I guess we won't grab a lunch anytime soon.

 

No, it means that in the United States the restaurant industry economically operates in a different manner than it does in South Africa, Venezuela, Russia, Poland, or Italy. As a result of legislation and cultural evolution, servers make very little in base pay and culture has evolved such that without the good will and grace of a restaurant's customers, the servers would make poverty wages. Because Americans are man for man the most generous people in the world, we step up and do our part. Knowing this information, if you visit the U.S. and you don't tip then that's between you and your conscience, although it would be considered incredibly rude. Most decent people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture. If you're too rude or stingy then thank God you are in America where you have the freedom to be a dick. Just don't make your stay too long.

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
No, it means that in the United States the restaurant industry economically operates in a different manner than it does in South Africa, Venezuela, Russia, Poland, or Italy. As a result of legislation and cultural evolution, servers make very little in base pay and culture has evolved such that without the good will and grace of a restaurant's customers, the servers would make poverty wages.

Seems to me like this is a type of job that is set to disappear. It is only a matter of time.

Virginia Tech 4ever:
Because Americans are man for man the most generous people in the world, we step up and do our part.

Show me the supporting data please.

Virginia Tech 4ever:
Knowing this information, if you visit the U.S. and you don't tip then that's between you and your conscience, although it would be considered incredibly rude. Most decent people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture. If you're too rude or stingy then thank God you are in America where you have the freedom to be a dick. Just don't make your stay too long.

Well, this is filled with insults. I'm disappointed.

 
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
No, it means that in the United States the restaurant industry economically operates in a different manner than it does in South Africa, Venezuela, Russia, Poland, or Italy. As a result of legislation and cultural evolution, servers make very little in base pay and culture has evolved such that without the good will and grace of a restaurant's customers, the servers would make poverty wages.

Seems to me like this is a type of job that is set to disappear. It is only a matter of time.

Virginia Tech 4ever:
Because Americans are man for man the most generous people in the world, we step up and do our part.

Show me the supporting data please.

Virginia Tech 4ever:
Knowing this information, if you visit the U.S. and you don't tip then that's between you and your conscience, although it would be considered incredibly rude. Most decent people will examine cultural mores before traveling and, out of deference to their hosts, will typically submit to "Roman" culture. If you're too rude or stingy then thank God you are in America where you have the freedom to be a dick. Just don't make your stay too long.

Well, this is filled with insults. I'm disappointed.

The job of server is not disappearing any time soon. You're some stingy foreigner who doesn't even live in the United States. The vast majority of Americans tip and business is going along as usual. You really have no idea what you're talking about if you think the job of waiter/waitress is going out. That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on WSO, which is saying something.

Proof? http://www.worldvision.org/news/new-report-ranks-most-generous-countries

U.S. #1 most charitable nation on earth.

Lastly, since English is obviously your second language, I would submit to you that you re-read the paragraph. There wasn't a single insult in it--simply a paragraph of hypotheticals. Nothing directed at you at all unless you fit the description of the hypothetical.

Array
 

Also,

I tip as follows:

10/10 30% 9/10 25% 8/10 20% 7/10 15% 6/10 10% 5 and below $1

Luckily when I eat at target restaurants and semi target restaurants(think consulting restaurants Apple Bees, Chilies, Red Lobster and Olive Garden

 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
Abdel:
What history will remember from this thread is the following:

Abdel = Defended his position with arguments

The rest= Attacked Abdel with insults since they lacked arguments.

Bro, I eviscerated your arguments on every single point.

Well, my position was clear. I'm against the ''in rome act like romans'' behavior and you said, DECENT people follow that behavior.

Which makes me indecent = insult.

You eviscerated nothing. All I got from you was insults and frustration.

The only non-insult thing you've said is:

  • This is our territory, act like us.

That's basically it.

 

Whats funny is you still think this argument matters.

Only thing that matters: if you come to America and go out with people and don't tip you will be looked at as a social degenerate and no one will like you. Secondly, in the real world people are rude. Grow up.

 
historiclegend:
Whats funny is you still think this argument matters.

Only thing that matters: if you come to America and go out with people and don't tip you will be looked at as a social degenerate and no one will like you. Secondly, in the real world people are rude. Grow up.

Well, I'll be at the WSO conference.

I'll go out to restaurents and will tip 0%. Hopefully, they'll spit in my food so I can make some quick bucks with a lawsuit.

The economic fundamentals are with me.

 

What are you talking about? I, like every other American on this thread, have pointed out the economics as to why restaurants pay the way they pay and why as a result people tip. This was pointed out to be how things culturally work in America.

Your only point is that American culture is wrong and that you don't want to follow it when you visit. I, like everyone else, have pointed out that if don't follow American culture when in the United States of America then you will come off like a total jerk to the people you're with and you'll be short changing your server as the restaurant has lowered the price of your bill to allow for you to provide a tip.

You don't have ANY valid points--your only position is that servers don't do enough to justify you paying an additional service charge and the rest of us have pointed out that you pay the service charge because their below minimum wage hourly wage is effectively subsidizing your meal. And here we are 100 posts later and your only point is now that people have insulted you.

In the interim, you've managed to make 2 of the most moronic statements in the history of this website, saying 1) that servers shouldn't even get paid $2/hour for the work that they do and 2) that waiter jobs will soon be dying out as a result of the pay structure.

Array
 

The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

 
historiclegend:
The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet for 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

 
Abdel:
historiclegend:
The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

So, you're asking me not to be myself and go against my chore values (that are based on solid arguments) just to please some corny individual who's life is to look at an excel spreadsheet 14 hours a day?

Are you serious?

Curious what "core value" you would ascribe to tipping servers 0%? I would say that this would reflect a lack of values and the presence of possible sociopathy.

Array
 
historiclegend:
The reason for going to the conference would be to network, since I'm assuming you can get most of the information from it online. So if networking is the purpose, and in order for networking to be effective, people have to like you, why not do your best to make it a successful trip?

There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

A Ron Paul libertarian who would ascribe as intrusive the use of private funds to tip people for their services.

A networker who laughs at the concept of cultural sensitivity.

A capitalist that has stated, more or less, that people should work for free (it was a stunning comment--I hope it was in jest).

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
There's just too much cognitive dissonance coming from this guy...

Yet again, another personal attack instead of valid arguments.

This thread will go down as one of my greatest wso intellectual victories.

 

@VT

Again, if they get paid $2/h it is because it represents the value of their work. I mean come on, how hard is it to walk 5 feet from a table to another. A robot can do it for free.

Also, if restaurents cain't compete, then they ought to go out of business. Find something else to do.

As to my ''moronic'' (insult again) statements, they are everything but that.

1) My point was, if I'm spending money in a restaurent, they should thank me by not making me pay the server. Either that or lose a customer to your competitor.

2) This is a no brainer. More and more people will continue to lose their jobs = less clients in restaurents = more firing in that sector.

 

Abdel,

Whether you agree with it or not, there are certain times where it's worth conforming to cultural norms like tipping when you visit the US whether you like it or not. Just because you disagree with the notion of tipping does not invalidate its purpose here in the US. If you ever get the chance to work as a waiter in a US restaurant, you'll see it from the opposite side. Oh, just wait til you come across the waiter or waitress that calls you out for leaving no tip or the "pittance tip" of a buck or so. Those are fun to deal with.

 
Frieds:
Abdel,

Whether you agree with it or not, there are certain times where it's worth conforming to cultural norms like tipping when you visit the US whether you like it or not. Just because you disagree with the notion of tipping does not invalidate its purpose here in the US. If you ever get the chance to work as a waiter in a US restaurant, you'll see it from the opposite side. Oh, just wait til you come across the waiter or waitress that calls you out for leaving no tip or the "pittance tip" of a buck or so. Those are fun to deal with.

Frieds,

As I've told VT, the problem with the ''act like a romans in rome'', is that it does not hold the logic test (as in my nazi germany example).

Now sure, it will make my life easier. But on based on principale , I refuse to do it due to social pressure of fear (unlike most of the people here).

I mean, if I see that the server is giving me more added value, then he will deserve more cash ( It never happened yet). Be if he/she only brings a beer that is 5 feet away from me, that is not worth $2/h, let alone a tip.

 
Abdel:
Frieds:
Abdel,

Whether you agree with it or not, there are certain times where it's worth conforming to cultural norms like tipping when you visit the US whether you like it or not. Just because you disagree with the notion of tipping does not invalidate its purpose here in the US. If you ever get the chance to work as a waiter in a US restaurant, you'll see it from the opposite side. Oh, just wait til you come across the waiter or waitress that calls you out for leaving no tip or the "pittance tip" of a buck or so. Those are fun to deal with.

Frieds,

As I've told VT, the problem with the ''act like a romans in rome'', is that it does not hold the logic test (as in my nazi germany example).

Now sure, it will make my life easier. But on based on principale , I refuse to do it due to social pressure of fear (unlike most of the people here).

I mean, if I see that the server is giving me more added value, then he will deserve more cash ( It never happened yet). Be if he/she only brings a beer that is 5 feet away from me, that is not worth $2/h, let alone a tip.

Again, what are you talking about? Your Nazi Germany example was a red herring and was indefensible, as I pointed out--it would be like comparing taking off your shoes in an Asian household to a foreign visitor to 1941 Nazi Germany being complicit in the genocide of millions of people. Your example was a hyperbolic red herring that doesn't even pass the sniff test.

Array
 

Bro look at this as a learning experience, and not a disagreement. Use this info for while you're in the US, it will payoff for you. Do as you want if you're by yourself or in your country. Social norms matter, and being likable is going to get you a lot farther in life. Continue going to these networking events though, practice makes perfect.

 

Where do you live? Maybe that will shed some light on to why you think $2/hr is unworthy of being a waitress. In the US at least, it is hard work, and is way below the amount needed to live off of. We've already explained that in the US the prices are structured to anticipate a tip being given.

Social norms and being liked matter, even for geniuses. No matter who you are it matters,

 

Abdel you're going to the WSO conference? Will you actually reveal yourself, in other words will you say your real name and follow it with that your wso username is or will you just leave that out so people don't judge you?

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
bfin:
Abdel you're going to the WSO conference? Will you actually reveal yourself, in other words will you say your real name and follow it with that your wso username is or will you just leave that out so people don't judge you?

I'll be there dolo and I don't know anyone and it will be my 1st time in nyc (was there once but only for 30 min or so - just came to sign a contract then dipped out).

If there are people who ask me who I am, of course I'll tell them Abdel. It will be an occasion for you to use your physical presence as an argument against my brain power.

 
historiclegend:
I still don't understand how mass murder is on the same level as a social norm.

To my germans and greeks example. We're not talking about isolated events here. We're talking about trends in a society that is adopted by a majority of people during a certain period of time. And in both of my examples, it was a majority of people who had that lifestyle or who was ok with it.

historiclegend:
And I'm assuming if someone put a gun to your head and said leave a tip, you would.

It is called taxation.

 

What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Riiiiight. Forget about the principle that I defended and distort my comments. So now, instead of insults, you try to distort my comments as a new strategy since you cannot defeat me by arguments.

It's over VT, just give up.

Abdel: 1 VT: 0

 
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
What Adel is saying is that he finds it immoral to tip a waitress. If it somehow violates his conscience then, well, it violates his conscience. While that makes no sense, it would at least be valid to say that I refuse to obey a cultural norm because it is immoral--that's at least valid.

I keep my shoes on all the time inside and I find it annoying when I'm asked to remove my shoes in a house full of cats and dirt. However, because it's not personally immoral or spiritually offensive--simply not my cultural norm--I submit to that norm because, well, I'm not a jerk...

But if you find it immoral to tip a waitress then there's nothing anyone could say to persuade you.

Riiiiight. Forget about the principle that I defended and distort my comments. So now, instead of insults, you try to distort my comments as a new strategy since you cannot defeat me by arguments.

It's over VT, just give up.

Abdel: 1 VT: 0

How am I distoring what you're saying? You specifically said it violated your "principles"....

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
And for the thousandth time I'll repeat that that it is your right, and that Americans are generous people and disagree with you. That's what I said about 75 comments ago when you asked me to prove how generous America is, which I did.

Well, I don't see a counter argument to my position = I win.

And the winner, by unanimous decision and still, the undefeated WSO intellectual champion of the worrrrld,

Abdel ''I'm always right'' ***** !!!!!!!!!

 

But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Econ 101: walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is not worth $10/hour.

 
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Econ 101: walking 5 feet to deposit a beer on a table is not worth $10/hour.

Econ 101: if you don't pay a person an acceptable wage they won't work the job. With no employees to work the job the owner of the restaurant has no employees and works all the tables himself. We can keep going around in this circle.

Array
 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Incorrect. it's similar to taxing elastic goods to reduce consumption. People don't keep purchasing goods that are "unnecessary" (aka elastic) in the same quantity. In fact they lower quantity demanded more as a % than the price increases as a %. Either the restaurant loses revenue or decides to eat some of the cost and keep prices low (a little higher but not the entire amount of the average tip).

 
miscer:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
But this brings us right back to where we started--the fact that your "principles" are mathematically incorrect...and everyone in this thread has pointed that out to you.

If your beer costs $6 plus $2 tip then that beer might cost $8 or even $9 or $10 if the restaurant were paying, say, $10/hour even at 2 pm with no expectation of tip. That's the point that dozens of us have tried to make to you--you aren't being asked to cough up more money--the accounting is all roughly the same, it just goes in different buckets. I'm not sure why you can't process this information

Incorrect. it's similar to taxing elastic goods to reduce consumption. People don't keep purchasing goods that are "unnecessary" (aka elastic) in the same quantity. In fact they lower quantity demanded more as a % than the price increases as a %. Either the restaurant loses revenue or decides to eat some of the cost and keep prices low (a little higher but not the entire amount of the average tip).

How do you tell good are elastic when they are all just substitutes?

 
Virginia Tech 4ever:
My counter argument is right above your last comment--that it is your right to be a miser, but that your miserliness is based off of a fallacy that you are paying more than the value because you are in a tip culture.

No because remember, the restaurent does not get the tip, i.e. He's making money off that $6 beer (on top of paying the salary). So, tip or no tip, it doesn't make a difference to the restaurent because he is making money.

And why do you think they offer waiters that miserable salary? Because that is the realest value of their work.

 
Abdel:
Virginia Tech 4ever:
My counter argument is right above your last comment--that it is your right to be a miser, but that your miserliness is based off of a fallacy that you are paying more than the value because you are in a tip culture.

No because remember, the restaurent does not get the tip, i.e. He's making money off that $6 beer (on top of paying the salary). So, tip or no tip, it doesn't make a difference to the restaurent because he is making money.

And why do you think they offer waiters that miserable salary? Because that is the realest value of their work.

Wow, this is like talking to a brick wall. You somehow just know better than all the restaurants in the United States....

Either the restaurant pays high fixed wages and increases prices or the restaurant pays low fixed wages, keeps prices lower and relies on the customer to pay the difference in wages via tips. It's a zero sum game--either you pay higher prices for food or you pay variable tips. It's basic math.

Array
 
historiclegend:
It's a social norm here, if you don't like it don't do it, but remember most in America will think you're a POS.

What's that saying again? '' What other people think never paid for a ferrari'' ? You get the point.

And by people calling me a POS, it only means that it is another insult against my arguments = I win again. lol

 
historiclegend:
It is an insult to you, because I personally think you are ignorant.

As far as I'm concern, I had a position. I defended that position with arguments and no insults.

You can think of me as insensitive to local cultures, but ignorant, I don't know.

It is however your opinion and you are entitled to it.

 

You're not thinking long term. If they were only worth $2/hr or whatever other number you think is fair it would leave little incentive for people to work hard and aim to work at the more expensive restaurants where they will make decent money at. The type of place you take a date and actually appreciate the extra attention and service you get there.

Also forgetting them restalking to condiments, refilling your drinks, getting your order cooked to medium well, having the food come out hot, keeping the tabled and floors clean, restalking ice, the list goes on and on.

So if no one tipped, you don't get service. Not being able to see past them just walking 5 feet with your food is a little narrow minded.

 

Odit omnis necessitatibus est eum perferendis et in. Totam eaque autem aliquid iusto porro.

 

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Consequatur eveniet et harum beatae ratione. At aut necessitatibus fugit et sit qui et. Sit sint assumenda enim tenetur ea. Nobis atque ipsam et ab dolor est excepturi. Dolore itaque suscipit sit aspernatur.

Repellendus assumenda dolore excepturi. Vel vel saepe nisi cum quo. Voluptas dignissimos accusantium nemo non cupiditate ut. Porro enim illo a dolorem omnis aut animi. Repellat quia nihil blanditiis.

Dolore quis doloremque aut aliquid modi quaerat non deleniti. Ratione enim eos neque sed esse qui quas. Voluptatibus quo eligendi nisi esse esse qui et. Molestias qui in quam fugit veritatis culpa at. Laudantium pariatur eos sunt sed.

 

In et harum non quo. Culpa enim quam libero. Debitis dolorem et occaecati est.

Inventore ducimus ex doloremque ullam. Odio aliquid consequatur et fuga ab earum. Quae quia dolor adipisci animi dolorem consequatur sint. Rem minus voluptas reprehenderit in facere aut commodi. Et odit voluptas exercitationem vel non.

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success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”