Is commodities the only S&T desk where you reach 6 to 7 figures ?

Banks are downsizing all their desks (equities, commodities, derivatives, FX, FICC) and FO positions are being cut too because of IT, algo and such. Support functions are increasing heavily.

Still remain prop shops (a lot of competion, I heard you gotta have PhD in mathematics Ivy league pedigree...) and HF (only recruit experienced traders who are recruited on behalf of huge positive) track records.

So here my conclusion : do supermajors and commo houses are the future for traders ? In terms of career path, exit ops, compensations (paid by cash there, not the case in banks anymore).

Thanks

 

Who are you? I work in a field much closer to S&T than whatever school you are currently attending. If you had bothered to do even a simple search, you would have noticed that there are countless threads on this website discussing how difficult it is to find a job in S&T due to regulatory reasons right now.

Physical commodity trading is a much harder field to break into than IB or S&T unless you have exactly the right connection or degree. Just about anyone who has attended the right school and is a hard worker can get into investment banking. Not so for trading roles, physical or otherwise.

 
GoodBread:

Who are you? I work in a field much closer to S&T than whatever school you are currently attending. If you had bothered to do even a simple search, you would have noticed that there are countless threads on this website discussing how difficult it is to find a job in S&T due to regulatory reasons right now.

Physical commodity trading is a much harder field to break into than IB or S&T unless you have exactly the right connection or degree. Just about anyone who has attended the right school and is a hard worker can get into investment banking. Not so for trading roles, physical or otherwise.

I would echo what you're saying for the most part, but not sure about the last 2 sentences. Physical trading, yes - fair enough. But sell-side trading? I'm definitely not the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to S&T, but quite a few of my friends went to S&T (London) and I would say it was a cake walk in comparison to landing certain other gigs.

 

The newbies on this site have such a warped perception of compensation, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Your odds of making 7 figures in PE, HF, ST, PT, IB, tech, startups and whatever else you can think of, is probably less than a 0.5% chance and that is assuming you have excellent credentials. And by excellent credentials, I mean target school education, excellent GPA + internships, landing an awesome job out of undergrad and working your ass off. S&T is in decline, but the vast majority of finance is also in decline. Compensation for various companies is readily available on glassdoor.com.

If you want to make 6 figures, find something in a high earning field that you are either very good at or can learn to love, because having constancy of purpose and hard work are the ONLY ways you are going to break into that income level.

Look at those commodity houses, they are extremely competitive to land a spot in and once in, how long until you even have a shot at being a trader? Because those guys lower on the totem pole may only be making 55-60k/yr. Of those who make it to traders how many of them make over 400k/yr? Switzerland is one of the major hubs and getting sponsored to work in Switzerland can be a very arduous process. Have you considered what that means for your chances of landing a position? Are you prepared for how long that is going to take?

 

Thanks a lot for your input.

I'm sorry but I can't see the link between having target ivy league degree + GPA and how it would help me reaching the 6 or 7 figures. It will help a lot to get internships at top-notch firms but afer that it's the personal work in the company which makes the difference isn't it ? As I come from a semi/non target I cannot go to PE or IB and I'm really interested in commodities so I thought I'd bridge the gap with that. I could get a MSc from a target school too (NYU, MIT, Chicago...) and then prospect for M&A or S&T internships.

If FT offers at commodity houses are extremely competitive I think I couldn't find a word 100 times harsher to characterize those in Banks (either BB or MM banks and either in M&A or S&T). It's everywhere very competitive today, in every field.

So what do you advise ? I'm open minded, willing to learn and open to everything.

Anyway I'd be very happy if I make 100-150k at 30yo.

 
ArcherVice:

The newbies on this site have such a warped perception of compensation, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Your odds of making 7 figures in PE, HF, ST, PT, IB, tech, startups and whatever else you can think of, is probably less than a 0.5% chance and that is assuming you have excellent credentials. And by excellent credentials, I mean target school education, excellent GPA + internships, landing an awesome job out of undergrad and working your ass off. S&T is in decline, but the vast majority of finance is also in decline. Compensation for various companies is readily available on glassdoor.com.

If you want to make 6 figures, find something in a high earning field that you are either very good at or can learn to love, because having constancy of purpose and hard work are the ONLY ways you are going to break into that income level.

Best post I have seen thus far on this entire site

 
ArcherVice:

The newbies on this site have such a warped perception of compensation, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Your odds of making 7 figures in PE, HF, ST, PT, IB, tech, startups and whatever else you can think of, is probably less than a 0.5% chance and that is assuming you have excellent credentials. And by excellent credentials, I mean target school education, excellent GPA + internships, landing an awesome job out of undergrad and working your ass off. S&T is in decline, but the vast majority of finance is also in decline. Compensation for various companies is readily available on glassdoor.com.

If you want to make 6 figures, find something in a high earning field that you are either very good at or can learn to love, because having constancy of purpose and hard work are the ONLY ways you are going to break into that income level.

Look at those commodity houses, they are extremely competitive to land a spot in and once in, how long until you even have a shot at being a trader? Because those guys lower on the totem pole may only be making 55-60k/yr. Of those who make it to traders how many of them make over 400k/yr? Switzerland is one of the major hubs and getting sponsored to work in Switzerland can be a very arduous process. Have you considered what that means for your chances of landing a position? Are you prepared for how long that is going to take?

This is WSO. It's essentially always been college kids who know way less than they think they do talking about the millions they are going to make with no real understanding how the market works. It's a time honored tradition.
 

I'm just comparing the pros and cons in each industry. I'm more into commodities (physical first and paper on the other hand both are linked in terms of market fundamentals or shipping). I also have a liking for M&A large/mid cap.

I'm not very interested in S&T paper trading (equities, derivatives...) except commodities because there are a lot of geopolitical/logistic/local factors that make the markets move.

I really want to work hard, but I'm afraid I'll have more chance to be rewarded in M&A than in the physical trading industry.

 

This seems like a "my easy path to riches" thread. It sounds like you're thinking that commodities are some sort of last haven for all the money-making. If so, I got some bad news for you, it's not. There is no low-hanging fruit.

I know plenty of people hurting right now trying to get a job or worried they'll get cut, etc. I'm pretty sure it's the same across the board; commodity trading is no safe haven.

 

As Anton Kreil (ex Goldman prop trader) puts it: In ST today, until you make to the executive director level, you'll be flatsharing and living month to month (which makes me rethink about my own ambitions lol); also, what you'll make on the analyst level on an hourly basis is roughly half McDonald (O_o)

 

I can imagine he's exaggerating quite a bit to sell his course... but what's even more funny is when he starts comparing different career paths: something like - starting out in s&t at BB you'll have (at most) $300k in your bank account 10 years down the road; vs starting out trading at home after doing his course, you'll have $4m (!!!) after 10 years, and if you don't want to trad at home, then he can "sell" you to a HF where you can make even more ^^

So... the ultimate solution is ... trade at home :D

 

ArcherVice is right but in IB analysts live shitty life hoping to climb the ladder to an executive position. If only 5% makes it the other 95% go for top MBAs or PE funds.

As Jargon said people in S&T commodities are afraid of being cut. I think you meant in BB because they are downsizing all their commodity desks except GS. Physical shops and supermajors don't meet the same problematics.

And it's true that with 80k you ain't gonna rent your own place in NYC... But in commodity trading you live in Houston, Chicago, Miami then if you pull that money there you'll live the high life (nice appartment in downtown with massive hood floor, stainless stairs...)

 

@BobCraigfield

I think it's more important you find what you really want to do. There is no field you're going to go into that is going to guarantee or give you a very high probability of making 7 figures or even way up in the 6's (other than maybe being a surgeon or something).

There are a multitude of fields in which you have the possibility to make good money. And if you choose something that you really want to do, you'll probably excel at it more, which should lead to making more money. Focusing on just compensation isn't a good idea IMHO - maybe if you said you wanted to be a musician or an actor I'd say something different but that's not the case.

My uncle was an attorney for a couple decades and made good money, but he hated his job. Now he's going back to school to be a physician's assistant (in his 50's!) even though it's a pay cut. If you like finance, that's great, but if you're doing it solely because you think it'll make you great money above all other fields, you're probably going to get in and find out it isn't as grand as you thought and later wishing you'd just done what you really wanted to do.

 

Thanks a lot for your input I appreciate.

You are right but there are some fields that even if you are good at and love it you would never be able to pull mid or high 6 figures.

Physical commodities is the only field where I see myself. I'd also like M&A and consulting (BIG 4 TSA).

 
BobCraigfield:

Thanks a lot for your input I appreciate.

You are right but there are some fields that even if you are good at and love it you would never be able to pull mid or high 6 figures.

Physical commodities is the only field where I see myself. I'd also like M&A and consulting (BIG 4 TSA).

You think finance is going to greatly increase your chances? It sounds like you're throwing out buzzwords because you heard somewhere someone made a lot of money in them. I'm telling you all this because I was kind of at the same point as you a while back.

 

I’m interested in anything I like and which pays well. I don’ t want to do a job that I enjoy but with average pay and low career opportunities. Same for the reverse. Otherwise I would go into audit BIG 4 and make my way to partner or CFO of a medium/big firm. I’m sure I would earn more money than in S&T (with higher purchasing power because medium/big companies are not in NYC) but I would not like the job.

Yes I like M&A, and mate you know what its tightly linked with physical commodities (assets, supply chain integration you know... ;) ) and I like consulting because I like taking distance to analyze a situation. If I make 500k at 35 yo I would be very happy you know. Anyway it s all about exceptions when people pull high 6 or 7 figures : start ups, PE, S&T ... but maybe there’s more chance in PE/M&A than in S&T.

 

In commodities it's different. First you never land a trader job at a physical trading firm (Glencore, Trafigura...) without relevant 3 or 5 years experience. But maybe in BB you can pull that amount just after graduating I don't know..

 
BobCraigfield:

In commodities it's different. First you never land a trader job at a physical trading firm (Glencore, Trafigura...) without relevant 3 or 5 years experience.
But maybe in BB you can pull that amount just after graduating I don't know..

You never land a trader job at a physical trading firm without relevant 3 or 5 years experience. What?

 

No bank's M&A department is going to have you financing logistics purchases for commodity traders dude. A commodity trade finance department like BNP Paribas' might (well, maybe not this year) but good luck making 500k by 35 doing that at a bank.

You like taking distance to analyze a situation? How is that in any way compatible with physical trading?

Your reasoning is very vague and you are very focused on compensation. Everyone wants a job that is both interesting and pays well, no one is going to elect some commodities/M&A/consulting trinity as the best choice for you.

 

For small firms maybe but it may not be true for huge firms such as Glencore, Cargill tend to own their own in-house M&A departments. In other words they more and more bypass big banks either for M&A or liquidity issues as they have enough liquidity to cover clients and suppliers working capital.

I would say it will help me to analyze markets, macro and micro economic factors, political issues. Those factors need to be gathered when you have a decision to make thus it requires standing back.

Yes my reasoning is very vague, I don't know how to deal with it

 
BobCraigfield:

For small firms maybe but it may not be true for huge firms such as Glencore, Cargill tend to own their own in-house M&A departments. In other words they more and more bypass big banks either for M&A or liquidity issues as they have enough liquidity to cover clients and suppliers working capital.

lol assclown
 

It is extremely competitive, imagine getting 250 applicants from target schools with solid internships on your desk. Now add in those people who did graduate training programs + swiss trading masters. Not to mention people moving laterally or in-house. And I really don't think you are appreciating what the actual salaries are.

At Glencore a fuel oil trader makes 200k, nat gas 162k, cotton 155k, crude oil 223k, risk manager all in 100k, logistics 55k. Don't get me wrong, those are good salaries especially if you could find something like that in Houston. But if you are in London or Switzerland, your taxes are substantially higher too not to mention the difficulty of landing a position abroad. I am sure somewhere there are guys making more but I really would temper your expectations.

 

If commodity trading is competitive I couldn't find a 50x stronger word to characterize IB and S&T FT offers in banks.

Those all-in package are very low, I mean as an other guy on the subject said you get paid 100k in a bank as your first year as a junior trader.

I just think there is a lack of transparency on careers moves and bonuses so the information spread here is inexact.

Can you imagine how far the oil trader glencore guy has been swimming in the pool to get there ?

At least my subject has the virtue of showing that you guys are totally false about salary questions: -Someone says 100k is the entry level salary for any S&T FO role -Someone says that if I'd be satisfied with 150k I'd better be a suburbs cop or a military officer

And now you tell me that 150-200k is a lot everywhere. Christ I've just read an article of a guy pulling 500k in NYC and saying he can barely save money. Plus 80k in Switzerland is not so much, especially in Zoug. The average income there is 90-100k per year. Life is very expensive over there.

 

BB finance pays a premium for target school educated people who are willing to put in +80hr weeks and live in one of the highest cost of living cities in the world, NYC. So sure, IF you land a position there you can expect around 100k.

That is far from reality everywhere else. Hell, 55-60k in Houston is equivalent to +100k in NYC, though that is just an average there are certainly expensive places in Houston as well. You'll notice the Switzerland salary specifically stated it just keeps up with the higher cost of living, thus is equivalent.

Yes, NYC is ludicrously expensive regardless of how much you make. And yes 150-200k is a lot everywhere. Less than 5% of the workforce makes above 100k/yr. The cutoff for the 1% is making 380k and above. Which is funny because I think the median household income in some part of NYC is like 700k or more.

In any event, those positions you are after are extremely competitive, as competitive if not more so than IBD. Getting a Visa to work in Switzerland is a bitch, which will make it that much harder to move there, especially without having several years of directly related experience under your belt. A finance manager at a F50 company may only make 150k (I think glassdoor stated 130k at JNJ). That is an excellent achievement, and one that will prove a lot more difficult than you imagine. Senior managers, executive VPs, and C-suite employees can and do make a lot more. But those are typically height of career achievements, rather than just turned 35 years old and here is my next milestone.

This all goes to say that there is plenty of opportunity out there, but I would re-visit your expectations. Which doesn't mean there has to be a negative connotation to that either.

 

You're worrying way too much about this. Find something that you enjoy and are good at, then the money will come. It will be incredibly difficult to pull in 6 or more figures in anything you do, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing. If your heart is set to something then you will find a way to make it work. I guess what you should take from this thread is that there are no financial guarantees and the only way to achieve a certain amount of money is through an incredible amount of hard work.

 
Best Response

OP, you are making the same mistake as countless people on this site, myself included, have made when looking for their first job.

When you come out of college, for the first time in your life there is no right or wrong answer about your future. It's easy enough to pick the highest ranked college you got into. Not so with work. That's why every other day there is a thread asking about the best industry, best bank, best product, best desk, best...

Back before the crisis, everyone was asking what was more "prestigious." Now that less money seems to be splashing around the Street, everyone is asking what will pay the most "over the next 5-10 years" as if they were somehow going to get to the top of their field in 5 years and retire by 35, or God forbid, by 40 if things are really tough.

That's not what work is. Work is where will you spend the largest chunk of your waking hours for what are likely to be the next 40 years of your life. Things may go different but don't bank on it. Look for a job you would be happy doing at 60+ years old and if you are so disposed, find something that has virtually unlimited upside so long as you are comfortable dealing with years of failure and self-doubt.

Everyone and their mom thinks geopolitics and being analytic is cool. The question you really need to ask yourself is what really gets your juices flowing. Not just what are you good at, and what are you interested in. What are you interested in that you are great at? Have you read stuff like Oil 101? How hard did you find reading it? Do you have a particular market you follow? Do you have opinions on monetary policies? What commodities might be influenced by these? What are the dry bulk and tanker markets looking like right now?

If coming up with answers to these kind of questions is stimulating, then power to you. But no one here can decide what the best, most prestigious, high-paying job in the world is for you. Stop looking for validation on an online forum and go find a job.

 

Impressive post GoodBreak.

OP I understand what you're looking for and as it has been said it's not the correct method.

I think you are right to compare the different costs between cities, 50K in Houston may be equivalent to 100k in NYC.

BTW I would recommend you to find your first JOB and then you'll be able to think about it. Commodities have a lot of opportunities like everywhere else but only for those who are willing to work hard

 

To OP: I dont know if you already graduated or not but I recommend applying to jobs and stop your current way of thinking because reality will soon hit you hard in the face.

ALL the jobs you mentioned are extremely competitive. Also, all the jobs you mentioned pay well, and there are mainly two reasons for that: 1) The hours are long and these hours will kick the shit out of you. 2) These jobs require highly specific skills and therefore the actual RELEVANT pool of applicants is limited. Yes, you understood correctly, your undergraduate/masters degree is not relevant. You do do not know jack shit of what is going on in como trading unless you spent a few years in the industry.

Its hard enough to get the traffic/scheduling jobs that you implied to be beneath you, so if you cant swallow your pride and be humble, this is definitely not your industry.

There is a strong culture of starting from below and rising up through the ranks in como trading. Most firms today have this untold policy of promoting great traffic/schedulers to junior trading positions. No serious firm will let you start trading without having gone through operations because the simple fact is that you will not know what you are doing without that prior knowledge. Remember, this is physical trading, real stuff moves around and there are complications to that. Even the superstars like Marc Rich started in ops...

Friendly advice: Read, read read. You need to figure out if you really like this sector or not. And no, not everybody gets to become Marc Rich or Choc Finger (Anthony Ward). A good sign to see if you are likely to enjoy working in the sector is when you get excited when you see a bulk carrier or an industrial factory... at least that's how I, and most people in my team feel.

I recommend starting with a generalist book called "Energy trading and Investing" by Davis Edwards. It is a rather easy read and covers most energy como's if you are into that.

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Trading-Investing-Management-Structuring/d…

Good luck, happy reading and stay humble !

 

This is funny how OP (and most graduates) think that they just have to focus on the highest paid positions/industries and then think that getting in is just a matter of willingness.

To give you an idea, 2 of my friends enterreted a commo trading firm during the last 2 years. Each of them had min 2years of experiences in a related field and spoke fluently at least 3 languages (one was speaking 5). You see how far you're from getting in ? So please stop speaking about comps and if you want to get a job in this industry you'll have to show a real commitment. Reading books is not enough.

 
SpaceMarine:

Sorry for the dumb question but what do foreign language skills have to do with commo trading?

It's a global marketplace where you are talking to suppliers and end-users in various different countries. Although most of your counterparties speak English, not all of them do and those who do don't necessarily speak it well, let alone write it well. Having 2 or 3 languages under your belt increases your efficiency at operating in the marketplace, reduces the possibility of errors because of a language barrier, and makes you more in-demand than your peers who don't speak multiple languages. It also allows you to reach out to new suppliers and customers in their native tongue, which helps build trust with those counterparties.

 

Thanks for your input guys.

Lol I already speak fluent 3 different languages it won't be an issue.

When I read your posts we could all believe that commodity jobs are like 10 times more competitive than IB or S&T jobs in banks, come on...

 
BobCraigfield:
When I read your posts we could all believe that commodity jobs are like 10 times more competitive than IB or S&T jobs in banks, come on...

You insinuate that commodities is where all the real money is made, but you think it's not that much more difficult than IB or S&T?

Lets say all the real ballers who pull 7 figures are indeed in commodities. Don't you think that word would get out and increase competition for slots? I can't tell if you're troll or actually just a freshman at this point.

 

I'm on the physical trading side.

The guys who are consistently earn 7 figures are products of a lot of luck and more importantly years of experience, dedication, skill, intelligence and honed talent. If they applied these same mindset to other fields, and also had the key passion, I'm sure they would be top earners in other industries.

However whenever I hear people who have never traded assume that they will make X or Y, I roll my eyes. My old boss used to tell me that trading is like sex, you can watch all the porn and "practice" every day, but that doesn't mean you are going to be good at it.

 
blender:

However whenever I hear people who have never traded assume that they will make X or Y, I roll my eyes. My old boss used to tell me that trading is like sex, you can watch all the porn and "practice" every day, but that doesn't mean you are going to be good at it.

NIce, finally some advice I can pass on to kids who ask these annoying questions.

 

I did not read this all, skimmed most of it. Anyways, as been told on here I am a physical trader and I did start out of school in analyst role and quickly became a trader, quicker and luckier path than most. That also said I worked in corporate finance before and know many people who do currently, I believe my job leading to ulcers a lot more likely than theirs ever will maybe if they become a CFO.

There is many a day, I go into work knowing full well a major chance I could lose a million or more that day, actually sometimes you know the night before even better feeling leads to that ulcer thing. Also many days, 30mins in I know the head of the desk will be running to call the CEO in the next hour to talk him off a ledge from shutting down the whole company that day. So Bondarb, is damn well on point that I expect to be fairly compensated for my job and anyone wanting to pursue this path damn well should be as well, if not really it is not for you. This thing called passion is mentioned alot for trading, truly there is no passion the only passion we have is the challenge and competitive dynamics of the job and the only scoreboard you have in trading is compensation, it is a different beast than banking/research/etc..

Anyways, that is my view from the physical side. Also everything I said still is true for the other areas of trading, there is just a lot less seats at certain firms these days, but I am sure many an Equity/FICC/MergerArb guy has fears of ulcers as well and I am pretty sure they demand to be fairly compensated as well.

 

The issue is that no one wants to say what they earn/a lot of ignorance and so there's MASSIVE ranges in compensation.

I've heard some say a few years in and you earn £50-60k, others say £100k+. It's really difficult to get a good idea of what's actually going on.

 
I Do Even:

The issue is that no one wants to say what they earn/a lot of ignorance and so there's MASSIVE ranges in compensation.

I've heard some say a few years in and you earn £50-60k, others say £100k+. It's really difficult to get a good idea of what's actually going on.

Unlike other areas where comp at a junior level is transparent and people care, no one truly in this end of the business gives a shit. It is much smaller and very less transparent, so do not expect anyone to share it or care to. Typically you need at least 18months to come near a client-facing/commercial role if you need that information to think that investment of your time if worth the end game, then maybe this business is not for you to begin with.

 

This business is kept secret.

There is a post around here stating the different ranges of compensations as a Junior Scheduler/Analyst... in NYC and Houston. I think it's Archer who wrote it not really sure but nobody lacks. Maybe the Graduate Program would pay less but considering the high ROI...

 

If you are maybe good enough to add 7 figures of value (maybe 8) to a desk, then maybe you'll get paid accordingly. If you aren't adding 7-8 figures of value, why would you get paid that much? And if you have found how to do so, from what I have seen, it is probably more due to a lot of the intangible factors mentioned earlier in this thread (passion, drive, focus, knowledge, etc.) So ask yourself what's actually motivating you... do you have a passion for this stuff or do you just like money? Not trying to come off as critical but something people considering this business need to really think about.

 

People are so misinformed. Trader/Sales people are pretty much all on decent 6-figure all-in-comp. In my final year as an analyst i was on > $300k. Was it better 10 years back? I imagine so, but S&T is nowhere close to "dead". I work 6:45am to 6:45pm Mon-Fri, LOVE what i do and get compensated ridiculously well for what i do (in my opinion). Still the best job out there bar being a tech genius. My 2 cents...

 

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CNBC sucks "This financial crisis is worse than a divorce. I've lost all my money, but the wife is still here." - Client after getting blown up
 

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