Is it crazy to take a BO/MO position over a FO position?

No the work is not interesting in BO. And from the comments on here the whole atmosphere is just depressing. Even if you aren't worried about exit ops doing banking at a solid regional shop will set you up well for the long term. Hell if you hate banking, I'm sure you can get a job in MO/BO at a BB. The same can not be said the other way around.

It depends. Risk management is one place where it's worth at least considering.

Some of the smartest- or at least wisest- people I know in banking happen to be risk managers. Guys with 20-30 years of experience who are always telling stories about crazy market events. Risk managers stay at a firm for a long time; traders, bankers, and certainly salespeople- often less so.

If you really really like risk management or the risk managers at the BB vs. the bankers or traders at the MM are like night and day, you shouldn't have even bothered to ask us for our opinions. Go with the folks you think you'll like working with and that you can learn from.

All things being equal, though, most front office positions will offer more and better opportunities than risk management.

Please don't commit career suicide - take the MM IB job.

If you do a thorough search on MO/BO - you'll find a number of poses supporting what Shaniqua is saying: it's boring for most 99% of people that join, the atmosphere is depressing or there's a sense of indifference, and it's very difficult to get out of.

Whereas the MM IB job can set you up with some decent skill sets for the next 2-3 years and you'll have more career ops - stay in banking/move up the chain to a BB, go into risk if you want, MBA, possibly a MM PE, corporate development in industry...

I know you mentioned you don't "care" about career ops, but fact of the matter is - most people don't like banking (at least the junior levels). It's a means to an end - either to go into PE, MBA, for $$$, or just simply because it's a good entry job to have to build a good resume. But it is a very good job at the entry levels because it keeps your future options open. To say any of us knowing 100%, without a shadow of doubt, what we want to do for the rest of our lives is stretching it. People change careers all the time - it's because you can't know what you want until you've tried it out first.

"but in career advancement in the BO. How far and how quickly can one advance? What does the salary cap out at?"

There is no career advancement. You will not advance quickly. Salary is pathetic.

Hope that helps.

yes. you would be crazy to take the BO over the FO postion. You'd be absolutely crazy... but perhaps you're simply just not an ambitious person? I guess I've heard some people are okay just being normal people... never really thought about it myself. To each their own -- i guess.

Ok, I've gotten pretty much the responses that I've expected. It seems to me that IlliniProgrammer is the most experienced one here, and he's also the only one to tell me that Risk is something worth considering. Yet, even so, it seems that the MM experience is better, and after taking into consideration the culture (mm is awesome and bb is good), it seems like a no-brainer. Here's the catch: I'm lazy, and also place a high value on immediate quality of life. This may be a result of burnout, but if that's the case, then I expect to feel similarly when working the IB position. With that in mind, it seems that the Risk position is a better "fit" for my personality. No one really discussed career advancement in the risk position, but I'm assuming that's because not too many people have experience, and hopefully not because there is no career in risk. At this point, my main concern is in how varied the work is, and if I'll be able to challenge myself when I feel a bout of motivation, but at the same time still be able to chill out most of the time.

If you're lazy as you claim and not super motivated to work 60-90hrs/wk, then maybe you should take the BO/MO route. But it's just that, if you do feel a bout of motivation, the BO/MO role may not fulfill that need. There's a reason why so many people strongly advise against it...

But given all of this, you should really just ask yourself if you're interested in a 'risk' job. Most importantly - know what the day-to-day or week-to-week job is like before choosing it.

If you like the culture at the MM, say no more. Just get yourself some motivation.

Clearly you were motivated enough to prepare and do well in school to get the MM IB offer, however your current attitude is atrocious. I would suggest trying to push back your start date (1-2weeks), take a vacation and then hit the ground running at the MM firm. Honestly, it sounds like corporate finance would suit you better, however that isn't an option you have at the moment.

I'm going to echo both IP and Kanon as they both make good points. The MM position will create great opportunities going forward, even if you think you don't care about them right now, and while the BO spot isn't necessarily career suicide, you are certainly putting yourself behind your peers in terms of experience and possibly pigeon-holing yourself to stay there long term, even if you decide you don't like it.

You are talking about 2 or 3 years of your life, which, yeah, they are your 20s and partying and having a bunch of free time sounds great, but like I always say, unless you are a trust fund baby you are going to have to sacrifice at some point, the question is, will it be now or later? I've look at similar situations and decided I would rather sacrifice time with my friends now then time with my family in the future (assuming I have one).

You aren't going to die by not choosing the right one, but don't underestimate the impact you can have buy limiting your career potential and exit opps so early. Hopefully others can weigh in on this, maybe someone who works in the BO.

Regards

There are plenty of BO threads in the searches, perhaps Anthony can relay his story.

If you are really on here asking which you should take you obviously haven't followed this board at all.

Take the FO position and suck it up. Always amazes me that people are afraid of hard work. This country wasn't built on the backs of slackers.

Here's what I see when comparing the two jobs, at least at the entry level: IB- lot's of gruntwork, learn a lot of good modeling skills. Risk- less gruntwork (by virtue of having less work overall), learn a lot of good skills (i think some modeling, can get a bit quant depending on the situation). If this assumption is correct, then lack of future client exposure would be the main thing I am missing out on. I think the biggest factor driving me towards risk is that I am not forced to do work if I don't want to, and I will probably be rewarded for any motivation I have. It seems that in IB I will be forced to work a lot, and punished if I don't. Positive reinforcement vs punishment. And I don't like being punished.

Hahha

Speak of the devil

BO sucks. I never even wanted to do IB and it still sucked. One week into it and I was emailing 20 people a day trying to get out. I quit within 5 months and much sooner had my GF at the time implored me not to.

It's clear you don't know how this industry works and merely applied to random jobs and read the descriptions that the banks/groups wrote themselves.

Your paragraph of text is full of errors and false information. However, your attitude is very deserving of the BO so I actually change my recommendation and think you should go with the risk job. Good luck.

Don't worry, boutiquebank probably resents the fact that most risk managers are smarter than bankers and probably earn more money per hour short of SVP.

Seriously- work for people that you like working for and the prestige will naturally come with the experience and hard work. Apparently, boutiquebank isn't as lucky as you- he doesn't seem too happy about work today. :D

bro you are set for a mediocre back office career - off to risk you go!

Oh look its the state school risk troll. Tell us more about how state school honors is > wharton and harvard.

I don't work in risk- I'm a quant. But I've met a lot of bankers and a lot of risk managers, and frankly, the risk managers in capital markets and even banking are often smarter than the bankers. That's why many of them can make more money for less work. Perhaps most interesting is how transferable their careers are and how easy it is for them to get into MBA programs.

Don't mean to dump on bankers- there's a lot of brilliant bankers out there, but I think boutiquebanker is just speaking out of sour grapes right now. Here on the trading floor, some folks might joke that the risk managers can be annoying, but they- along with technology, operations, and sales- get more respect than bankers.

I'm reminded of another quote- "Keep your life free from the love of money and be content with what you have."

Work and money are great, but people have better and more meaningful lives when that's not their #1 priority. The biggest factor in folks' happiness really comes down to free time, not discretionary spending. And some of the happiest and most satisfied people I know at work are always talking about that quote.

You work hard and live frugally so you can retire as early as possible on the lifestyle you are happy with. Nearly any job in finance in New York will probably allow you to do that. It doesn't have to be in the front office.

Dude don't take the BO role. Take it from someone who knows, the BO is as lame as it gets. There are myriad other jobs out there that are more interesting and have good hours.

OP, Did you really expect any kind of balanced opinion on this dude? This site is populated almost entirely by people working, trying to work, or aspiring to work in FO roles.

It's not just this board though. My office reeks of sadness and broken dreams.

GoodBread, this thread turned out to be about a risk management position vs. FO.

My take is that risk management isn't BO. This is coming from someone who spent six months in IT "purgatory".

If you're quantitatively brilliant, think 40-50 hour workweeks are cool, and above all else HATE LOSING, risk management is a perfectly respectable career choice. If you don't like it, it can always be changed with an MBA or MFE.

happypantsmcgee:

OP, Did you really expect any kind of balanced opinion on this dude? This site is populated almost entirely by people working, trying to work, or aspiring to work in FO roles.

FO, at least there's a chance to make big bucks there, if it doesn't happen, then go to BO/MO.

Ok, so my goal in making this thread was not to actually decide based on what people say. Of course I will be making the best decision for myself. My goal was to see if there was anything I had not thought of yet. The opinion of the crowd is that risk is not interesting work. That is probably the biggest potential swaying point here. Then again, no one seems to have too much experience in the field, so I will investigate that some more. The point about not losing vs winning is a bit concerning to me. As an athlete, I enjoy winning. However, as a somewhat lazy athlete, I also enjoy maximizing my time by being as efficient as possible. FO definitely is not efficient. Risk, maybe. As I said, ultimately comes down to the work, which I do think will be varied enough for at least a few years. Long term I'm less certain about.

if you chose BO when you have a front office MM IBD opportunity, you lose.

You've already made up your mind so why come here and ask for our opinion when you know the site consensus? To justify your choice?

Truthfully, if you want to make decent money and not do any work, look for government employment.

Regards

I have some tissues for you.

There are winners and losers in life. Winning is not for everyone. It involves serious sacrifices.

What game are you winning at? I'm trying to figure out what game I should play.

Listen. You got your answer from everyone. Go make your decision and be done with it. This site is generally populated by people who want these top positions and want to aggressively advance their careers. You are looking to enjoy your 20's. Go enjoy them. Don't think you are going to convince any of us that you are something special though.

Fair enough. Thanks for the closure.

I got sick of BO work and quit after 5 months. Would have been a lot sooner, but my GF at the time begged me not to do it.

I was ready to quit after 3 months with no back up job and bills to pay. That is how much it sucks. I literally would drink every night and fought to go to work. For 9 hours a day I would stare into my computer screen not because I was focusing, but because I was trying to avoid any conversation or seeping in of the reality of what I was doing and how much it sucked.

@illini - I am not calling anyone who goes into risk a loser. You have had to work extremely hard to get to where you are at and your job is far from easy. This person has 2 jobs in front of them and wants to go with the one that will require less work. In reality risk work can be extremely intense. What I consider disgusting is the attitude of avoiding work. Especially on this website where countless people fight tooth and nail to get these FO jobs.

Do whatever makes you happy, just dont come on here talking about not wanting to kill yourself and looking for a job where you can "enjoy" your 20's.

Ok, just to clarify, I am not looking specifically to avoid working hard. I am trying to minimize my tedious work to payoff ratio, both in the short term and in the long term. Sorry I portrayed that attitude; it seemed easier at the time than explaining this. Anthony, I can appreciate both your experiences, and the opinions those have created. I am curious to know (sorry for not searching through old threads, but again, trying minimize the tedious work to payoff ratio) what BO position you had, and what impressions of risk work you have. It seems IlliniProgrammer has a surprisingly high regard for it, and from your tone I can't quite tell if you are against risk because of my apparent attitude or because you believe that risk will not have rewarding and impactful work.

Location location location! Go work in NYC!

I worked short term securities processing. Basically swept money from different accounts. True BO work. It sucked ass.

I think risk is fine. It is a challenging field and engaging. Your desire to have more of a life is completely normal and fine, but in the context of this site it stands out. We have had repeated threads where people have been killing themselves for months and years trying to break in. That is how much people on here want what you are turning down because of the hours.

To each their own.

jackilewis:

No offense but that's your own fault. I am in IB too and I lost weight compared to before. I work out more and sometimes don't eat when there are fire drills.

It's not worth it to you but I love my job.

I would guess you hate it since you can't even write a post without misspelling "interesting". I bet MD's eat you alive.

PS: "or something", not "of something".

Nice, supportive words, Illini. Interesting judgement call, as I have very few posts to base judgement on, but hanks nonetheless. After speaking with a few people in the position, as well as in banking, I have decided to take the Risk position. The insights on this board were helpful as well, so thanks all. My next question is, does anyone know what an analyst starting salary would be at MS/GS? I was under the impression that analysts were payed the same across the board, but I've heard that pay was at 70+ 10 starting, while this offer is at 65+10 starting. I'd also like to know some more about bonuses. From past threads, it looks as if there is a large range for bonuses, and is very firm-specific. If anyone knows specifics about either MS or GS, I would love to hear them.

Thanks

^^ I didn't make the judgement call. The BB Risk Management group made it on your intellect and the boutique IBD group made it on your work ethic.

It's always interesting to hear stories from folks who did something completely ridiculous like turning down the front office. Usually it's because they had a very, very good reason to so.

If you got into the right risk management group at GS, I think that's one of the few places where a lot of folks on this board- perhaps a majority- will tell you to turn down the boutique IBD. Some of GS's risk management groups are arguably just as "baller" as their traders. As you heard in the Abacus hearings, those groups routinely decide on potential hedges and execute on them for the firm- those hedges kept the firm safe during the crash.

Good choice! I probably would have done the same... I'd end up killing myself if I had to do banking for 2 years