2/15/10

So, I've heard pretty mixed opinions about pursuing a JD/MBA, and I was wondering if anyone here who has experience with this can comment. Some people say that its bad because it makes you seem unsure about what you want to pursue, some say its only worth it at top biz and law schools (i.e. a JD/MBA from Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Columbia, etc. would be really good) and others say that if its from a half decent school (i.e. T20 law school and T15 MBA school), it will make an otherwise average candidate more appealing since they have a broader skill set.

I'm not the smartest guy around, so I think (despite the fact that I'm shooting for HYSC JD/MBAs) getting into both Harvard Law and HBS will be hard, but what if I get one from a place like UCLA, UT-Austin, Michigan, Cornell, etc.? Would it still be worth it? I think eventually, I want to either get into strategic consulting, financial restructuring, international trade, or M&A work and I think having a background in understanding contracts, the legality of various business transactions, and tax knowledge will be useful, but at the same time, I don't want to take on massive amounts of debt and waste a lot of time pursuing a worthless double degree.

So yeah, thoughts?

Comments (148)

2/15/10

My $0.02:

I have a friend who's just now finishing up a JD from a top-25 school. He says he knows most of his graduating class, and he doesn't know more than one or two people that have offers. It's rough out there. So, he's looking to do an MBA now in addition to his JD, just to find a decent job down the line. He says the demand for these dual degrees is small, however it is there. I'm in the DC area, so here it's primarily the defense contractors that recruit JD/MBAs, and they do pay pretty well.

Personally, I don't see the value-added in a law degree unless you want to be a lawyer. It would create expectations of higher wages than a good MBA alone would confer, but I'm not sure there'd be that many companies willing to pony up the dough. Think about who you want to work for beforehand - research carefully who exactly would REQUIRE a JD/MBA.

Besides, a good MBA alone should be sufficient for most careers. It should be enough to get you into strategy consulting or IB M&A, for instance.

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2/15/10
MeatProduct:

My $0.02:

I have a friend who's just now finishing up a JD from a top-25 school. He says he knows most of his graduating class, and he doesn't know more than one or two people that have offers. It's rough out there. So, he's looking to do an MBA now in addition to his JD, just to find a decent job down the line. He says the demand for these dual degrees is small, however it is there. I'm in the DC area, so here it's primarily the defense contractors that recruit JD/MBAs, and they do pay pretty well.

Personally, I don't see the value-added in a law degree unless you want to be a lawyer. It would create expectations of higher wages than a good MBA alone would confer, but I'm not sure there'd be that many companies willing to pony up the dough. Think about who you want to work for beforehand - research carefully who exactly would REQUIRE a JD/MBA.

Besides, a good MBA alone should be sufficient for most careers. It should be enough to get you into strategy consulting or IB M&A, for instance.

Well to be fair, I've heard that any law school outside the top 14 and maybe UT, UCLA, Vanderbilt, and USC aren't really worth attending, and that these days, even within the T7-14 schools, people are having problems competing with HYSC type of people. This isn't to call your friend stupid or anything, but I know how difficult the legal environment is these days going in (which is also why there's only a select few JDs I'd apply to). That's why, I was wondering, if adding an MBA, especially since I'm looking at restructuring/international trade and wouldn't mind being a lawyer would be a bad idea. Furthermore, since I go to a non-target undergrad, getting into a top business school will be a challenge since I won't get an i-banking/consulting job, and I've heard that MBAs are slightly more forgiving for people who are applying to their dual JD/MBA programs. So for someone like me, that would give me a backup (esp since I don't mind being a lawyer) and it may enable me to get into a good MBA that might have been otherwise out of reach.

2/15/10
ibankingreject:
MeatProduct:

My $0.02:

I have a friend who's just now finishing up a JD from a top-25 school. He says he knows most of his graduating class, and he doesn't know more than one or two people that have offers. It's rough out there. So, he's looking to do an MBA now in addition to his JD, just to find a decent job down the line. He says the demand for these dual degrees is small, however it is there. I'm in the DC area, so here it's primarily the defense contractors that recruit JD/MBAs, and they do pay pretty well.

Personally, I don't see the value-added in a law degree unless you want to be a lawyer. It would create expectations of higher wages than a good MBA alone would confer, but I'm not sure there'd be that many companies willing to pony up the dough. Think about who you want to work for beforehand - research carefully who exactly would REQUIRE a JD/MBA.

Besides, a good MBA alone should be sufficient for most careers. It should be enough to get you into strategy consulting or IB M&A, for instance.

Well to be fair, I've heard that any law school outside the top 14 and maybe UT, UCLA, Vanderbilt, and USC aren't really worth attending, and that these days, even within the T7-14 schools, people are having problems competing with HYSC type of people. This isn't to call your friend stupid or anything, but I know how difficult the legal environment is these days going in (which is also why there's only a select few JDs I'd apply to). That's why, I was wondering, if adding an MBA, especially since I'm looking at restructuring/international trade and wouldn't mind being a lawyer would be a bad idea. Furthermore, since I go to a non-target undergrad, getting into a top business school will be a challenge since I won't get an i-banking/consulting job, and I've heard that MBAs are slightly more forgiving for people who are applying to their dual JD/MBA programs. So for someone like me, that would give me a backup (esp since I don't mind being a lawyer) and it may enable me to get into a good MBA that might have been otherwise out of reach.

"Any law school outside the top 14... aren't really worth attending" What is wrong with you? Where do you people come up with this stuff? I'm so tired of listening to high school students, undergrads (that aren't even at a target school in this case) and pompous analysts say things that are obviously retarded.

It's really hard to get accepted at Harvard unless you graduate from Exeter/Andover, so if you go to public high school don't bother applying. It's also going to be tough to break into I-banking if you don't graduate from a target school (~ top 10 undergrad) so if you don't get accepted into one, it's not really worth going to college. If you don't get a full time offer from Goldman or MS it's pretty damn hard to get into a megafund so it's not really worth working at Barclays/CS/UBS/BAML...

You're absolutely correct, it's not worth going to a law school outside the top 14... UNLESS OF COURSE YOU WANT TO BE A LAWYER, moron.

2/15/10
bankerjoe:
ibankingreject:
MeatProduct:

My $0.02:

I have a friend who's just now finishing up a JD from a top-25 school. He says he knows most of his graduating class, and he doesn't know more than one or two people that have offers. It's rough out there. So, he's looking to do an MBA now in addition to his JD, just to find a decent job down the line. He says the demand for these dual degrees is small, however it is there. I'm in the DC area, so here it's primarily the defense contractors that recruit JD/MBAs, and they do pay pretty well.

Personally, I don't see the value-added in a law degree unless you want to be a lawyer. It would create expectations of higher wages than a good MBA alone would confer, but I'm not sure there'd be that many companies willing to pony up the dough. Think about who you want to work for beforehand - research carefully who exactly would REQUIRE a JD/MBA.

Besides, a good MBA alone should be sufficient for most careers. It should be enough to get you into strategy consulting or IB M&A, for instance.

Well to be fair, I've heard that any law school outside the top 14 and maybe UT, UCLA, Vanderbilt, and USC aren't really worth attending, and that these days, even within the T7-14 schools, people are having problems competing with HYSC type of people. This isn't to call your friend stupid or anything, but I know how difficult the legal environment is these days going in (which is also why there's only a select few JDs I'd apply to). That's why, I was wondering, if adding an MBA, especially since I'm looking at restructuring/international trade and wouldn't mind being a lawyer would be a bad idea. Furthermore, since I go to a non-target undergrad, getting into a top business school will be a challenge since I won't get an i-banking/consulting job, and I've heard that MBAs are slightly more forgiving for people who are applying to their dual JD/MBA programs. So for someone like me, that would give me a backup (esp since I don't mind being a lawyer) and it may enable me to get into a good MBA that might have been otherwise out of reach.

"Any law school outside the top 14... aren't really worth attending" What is wrong with you? Where do you people come up with this stuff? I'm so tired of listening to high school students, undergrads (that aren't even at a target school in this case) and pompous analysts say things that are obviously retarded.

It's really hard to get accepted at Harvard unless you graduate from Exeter/Andover, so if you go to public high school don't bother applying. It's also going to be tough to break into I-banking if you don't graduate from a target school (~ top 10 undergrad) so if you don't get accepted into one, it's not really worth going to college. If you don't get a full time offer from Goldman or MS it's pretty damn hard to get into a megafund so it's not really worth working at Barclays/CS/UBS/BAML...

You're absolutely correct, it's not worth going to a law school outside the top 14... UNLESS OF COURSE YOU WANT TO BE A LAWYER, moron.

Well, for the jobs I want (read BigLaw), it is very difficult to get those from schools outside the T14, so for my situation, attending a law school outside the top 14 isn't worth it. Wanting to be a lawyer is a very general term. There are public interest attorneys that make 50k, there are corporate attorneys that make 160k, etc. For the type of attorney I want to be, they are very selective about what schools they recruit from, and unless I go to a lower ranked school and absolutely murder my competition (which is never a guarantee), getting into the type of firms I want from a non-T14 has a low probability of success, and if it doesn't work out, then I'll have wasted time and money for something that was a long-shot to begin with. Perhaps I phrased it wrong initially, but hopefully that clears things up.

2/15/10

Haha @ bankerjoe's comments...

ibankingreject (come on with that name, by the way -- although look who's talking...), bankerjoe makes a good point, but you're kinda right in what you said about law schools. In this market especially, it seems to be really tough to get on the lawyer track from a non-top-10/15 law school. My friend would admit to it as well, so don't worry about stepping on toes.

BUT. You're overgeneralizing. You do have a shot at a good MBA program if you do some cool stuff with your post-college work exp, and score well on the GMAT. They like stuff that's out of the ordinary, esp. with leadership experience. They get tons of IBD and consultant applicants, so those "pools" of candidates are actually super-competitive; it's hard to stand out if you're in that pack.

I'll reiterate my point: define your target employers for this JD/MBA plan of yours. Who is willing to pay top money for this dual degree? How much will it be? How competitive is it? Etc... Once you've answered that, you'll have a better platform for deciding if it's worth it. If it's BigLaw or M&A IBD work you want, I don't think the dual degrees are necessary.

2/15/10
MeatProduct:

Haha @ bankerjoe's comments...

ibankingreject (come on with that name, by the way -- although look who's talking...), bankerjoe makes a good point, but you're kinda right in what you said about law schools. In this market especially, it seems to be really tough to get on the lawyer track from a non-top-10/15 law school. My friend would admit to it as well, so don't worry about stepping on toes.

BUT. You're overgeneralizing. You do have a shot at a good MBA program if you do some cool stuff with your post-college work exp, and score well on the GMAT. They like stuff that's out of the ordinary, esp. with leadership experience. They get tons of IBD and consultant applicants, so those "pools" of candidates are actually super-competitive; it's hard to stand out if you're in that pack.

I'll reiterate my point: define your target employers for this JD/MBA plan of yours. Who is willing to pay top money for this dual degree? How much will it be? How competitive is it? Etc... Once you've answered that, you'll have a better platform for deciding if it's worth it. If it's BigLaw or M&A IBD work you want, I don't think the dual degrees are necessary.

Thanks, I'll definitely look at that, and once again, I am by no means saying your friend is worthless for not going to a T14 school or anything like that. I just want to emphasize that, and I hope he is able to find a job in this tough environment.

As far as the MBA thing, I'll admit I have much less knowledge about admissions there. However, a lot of people on other forums (i.e. college confidential and even on here) keep telling me that if I don't get into IBD/Consulting then I can basically forget about a T10 (forget about HSW, but a TOP 10 school) MBA since my work experience is worthless. That's why I'm a bit worried about my prospects. The most I can hope for is being a financial analyst/accountant for a F500 company, which I'd honestly be somewhat happy with, but doesn't cut for top MBAs from what people on forums tell me. Perhaps they are wrong and I am misguided in this regard because of this, but that's what I've read. I am fairly confident that I can make a 750+ on the GMAT if I study really hard, but because my GPA (3.4-3.5+ after this term) and work experience will be average, I just want to make sure that going for a top MBA isn't a pipedream because of the GPA/WE.

2/15/10

OP, Alright... here's my opinion from the current practice of law (I've been at a good sized - but not huge - law firm for 4 years):

1. Finding a job in law right now is very, very, very difficult. That said, I believe that it is more important to do well and have a high class rank (top 10%) than to attend a top 10% school and end up at the faceless median within your class. Just do your homework on a lower ranked school (figure out who recruits there) before pursuing it. Recruiting in law is all about your stats... class rank and law review more than anything else.

2. If you want to work at a law firm, the MBA portion of a JD/MBA is not an efficient use of time. While it might be helpful at the partner level (understanding the business side of a Client's problem), at the associate level your focus is on strictly legal issues for the most part. Certain practice areas are slightly different in that other educational backgrounds are more highly prized (CPA for tax/estate planning work for example), but these need to be specialized in nature and not much about a MBA is specialized enough to be helpful.

3. If you want to work in business, the JD portion of a JD/MBA is not very useful without practice experience. I say this because in law school you will learn just enough to be a very dangerous lawyer. The best advice I could give someone that wanted to move into business with a JD would be to practice for at least 3 years to gain a strong foundation in a specialty that is applicable to your target industry and then use the network you will build in these early years of your practice to help you make the leap.

4. Be very careful about the costs of pursuing a JD/MBA and make very sure that the compensation at the end will generate a sufficient return on your investment in both degrees. Personally, I do not expect that it will for the reasons that I highlighted above. I am going back to get my MBA this fall, but my goal is to transition careers, not start one (please excuse me if my assumption that you're an undergrad is wrong) and, since my goal is to transition into IB, I only expect to make what other IB associates are making.

I've seen some of your previous posts and I think the best thing you could do for yourself at this point is just relax and be more positive. To be honest, you seem depressed, jaded and desperate - three things that instantly put people off. If I were you, I'd find a job bartending this summer, enjoy life for a few months, see what "real" work is really like and realize that you probably have it better than 90% of the population of the world. Basically I think you need to change your outlook and deal with your emotional maturity before worrying about your career track. If you work hard enough you'll find a successful and enjoyable career regardless of how many letters come behind your name and what name is on your degree(s).

2/16/10
reformedatty:

OP, Alright... here's my opinion from the current practice of law (I've been at a good sized - but not huge - law firm for 4 years):

1. Finding a job in law right now is very, very, very difficult. That said, I believe that it is more important to do well and have a high class rank (top 10%) than to attend a top 10% school and end up at the faceless median within your class. Just do your homework on a lower ranked school (figure out who recruits there) before pursuing it. Recruiting in law is all about your stats... class rank and law review more than anything else.

2. If you want to work at a law firm, the MBA portion of a JD/MBA is not an efficient use of time. While it might be helpful at the partner level (understanding the business side of a Client's problem), at the associate level your focus is on strictly legal issues for the most part. Certain practice areas are slightly different in that other educational backgrounds are more highly prized (CPA for tax/estate planning work for example), but these need to be specialized in nature and not much about a MBA is specialized enough to be helpful.

3. If you want to work in business, the JD portion of a JD/MBA is not very useful without practice experience. I say this because in law school you will learn just enough to be a very dangerous lawyer. The best advice I could give someone that wanted to move into business with a JD would be to practice for at least 3 years to gain a strong foundation in a specialty that is applicable to your target industry and then use the network you will build in these early years of your practice to help you make the leap.

4. Be very careful about the costs of pursuing a JD/MBA and make very sure that the compensation at the end will generate a sufficient return on your investment in both degrees. Personally, I do not expect that it will for the reasons that I highlighted above. I am going back to get my MBA this fall, but my goal is to transition careers, not start one (please excuse me if my assumption that you're an undergrad is wrong) and, since my goal is to transition into IB, I only expect to make what other IB associates are making.

I've seen some of your previous posts and I think the best thing you could do for yourself at this point is just relax and be more positive. To be honest, you seem depressed, jaded and desperate - three things that instantly put people off. If I were you, I'd find a job bartending this summer, enjoy life for a few months, see what "real" work is really like and realize that you probably have it better than 90% of the population of the world. Basically I think you need to change your outlook and deal with your emotional maturity before worrying about your career track. If you work hard enough you'll find a successful and enjoyable career regardless of how many letters come behind your name and what name is on your degree(s).

Do I actually soud like I am clinically depressed? I'd really like honest opinions on this because I've been wondering about this for close to 2 years now, but have never got around to addressing this.

2/15/10
ibankingreject:

I want to either get into strategic consulting, financial restructuring, international trade, or M&A work

Believe me. You don't wanna dual JD for that.

3/19/12

.

2/16/10

Ibankingreject,

I have seen you author probably 10 posts looking for any career which will give you some type of impressive position or whatever. I mean you started out talking about IB, then JD/MBA, then trading, then Top MBA, etc. You really don't have any focus or desire for one particular thing. I think you should just get a variety of internships, do as well as possible in school and focus on finding out what you truly love to do. That will benefit you a lot more than looking at positions solely for prestige or something else.

2/16/10
AnthonyD1982:

Ibankingreject,

I have seen you author probably 10 posts looking for any career which will give you some type of impressive position or whatever. I mean you started out talking about IB, then JD/MBA, then trading, then Top MBA, etc. You really don't have any focus or desire for one particular thing. I think you should just get a variety of internships, do as well as possible in school and focus on finding out what you truly love to do. That will benefit you a lot more than looking at positions solely for prestige or something else.

I totally agree with AnthonyD. (He has some pretty good advice for the most part). I remember seeing Ibankingreject posting a lot and tracked some of his earlier posts. You sound kind of lost. If this is true. DO NOT do a JD/MBA. It's at LEAST 3 years of opportunity cost, Northwestern JD/MBA program plus $70-80K a year. I thought about doing a JD/MBA myself. But looking at the price tag, talking with friends, looking at the school's placement, and reading TopLawSchool forum discussions, decided against it. I mostly looked at Northwestern cause it was the shortest JD/MBA program. Every other JD/MBA program was 4 years.

One other thing. Law school on average is harder to get into than B-school. The GPA requirements for Law School are usually 0.3 GPA points higher than B-school. A lot of schools require you take GMAT and LSAT. Not Northwestern, they only require GMAT, but most others require both.

I believe I can get in to a top 5-7 MBA based on my school, major, gpa, potential GMAT (based on my SAT scores) and experience thus far. Thus I decided against getting a JD. There are many routes to a MBA. Ibankingreject I think you should find a F500, Big 4, MM, lower Consulting Co., or leadership rotational programs like GE and work a one or two and then decide if you still want a JD/MBA. I know friends who graduating from top law schools Top 5~10 that don't have any work experience and finding it hard to find those "BigLaw" jobs. Having an MBA without any of the experience doesn't help all that much.

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Hug It Out

3/19/12

A lot of people on this thread will probably advise to the contrary, but I think getting a JD is a lot more helpful than an MBA. I'm in grad school right now, and even as an UG i got to interact with a lot of MBAs and I must say the degree is entirely worthless. You are basically paying a ton of money to meet people and build your network...which is great, but can be done elsewhere for free. A decent amount of people do plain JD-->IB so if you don't mind saving yourself a year of agony, forgo the MBA. Finance is pretty easy and for the most part intuitive as long as you have the fundamentals down (and most of your learning is going to happen on the job anyways). I think its a better use of your time to develop soft skills like negotiating/deduction...things that Law school helps foster. If I could go back a few years I probably would have taken the LSAT and gone straight for a JD.

3/19/12
hungry:

A lot of people on this thread will probably advise to the contrary, but I think getting a JD is a lot more helpful than an MBA. I'm in grad school right now, and even as an UG i got to interact with a lot of MBAs and I must say the degree is entirely worthless. You are basically paying a ton of money to meet people and build your network...which is great, but can be done elsewhere for free. A decent amount of people do plain JD-->IB so if you don't mind saving yourself a year of agony, forgo the MBA. Finance is pretty easy and for the most part intuitive as long as you have the fundamentals down (and most of your learning is going to happen on the job anyways). I think its a better use of your time to develop soft skills like negotiating/deduction...things that Law school helps foster. If I could go back a few years I probably would have taken the LSAT and gone straight for a JD.

Agree about the MBA basically just good for networking. But the JD/MBA accelerated programs offer you an additional degree in the same time it would take to get a law degree, so why not aim for the JD/MBA?

To the OP, I say get into a good accelerated program where both the B-School and Law school are well respected.

3/19/12
UofHGirl:
hungry:

A lot of people on this thread will probably advise to the contrary, but I think getting a JD is a lot more helpful than an MBA. I'm in grad school right now, and even as an UG i got to interact with a lot of MBAs and I must say the degree is entirely worthless. You are basically paying a ton of money to meet people and build your network...which is great, but can be done elsewhere for free. A decent amount of people do plain JD-->IB so if you don't mind saving yourself a year of agony, forgo the MBA. Finance is pretty easy and for the most part intuitive as long as you have the fundamentals down (and most of your learning is going to happen on the job anyways). I think its a better use of your time to develop soft skills like negotiating/deduction...things that Law school helps foster. If I could go back a few years I probably would have taken the LSAT and gone straight for a JD.

Agree about the MBA basically just good for networking. But the JD/MBA accelerated programs offer you an additional degree in the same time it would take to get a law degree, so why not aim for the JD/MBA?

To the OP, I say get into a good accelerated program where both the B-School and Law school are well respected.

More expensive, 66% higher workload, and a JD is only worth it if you make Law Review.

3/19/12
drexelalum11:
UofHGirl:
hungry:

A lot of people on this thread will probably advise to the contrary, but I think getting a JD is a lot more helpful than an MBA. I'm in grad school right now, and even as an UG i got to interact with a lot of MBAs and I must say the degree is entirely worthless. You are basically paying a ton of money to meet people and build your network...which is great, but can be done elsewhere for free. A decent amount of people do plain JD-->IB so if you don't mind saving yourself a year of agony, forgo the MBA. Finance is pretty easy and for the most part intuitive as long as you have the fundamentals down (and most of your learning is going to happen on the job anyways). I think its a better use of your time to develop soft skills like negotiating/deduction...things that Law school helps foster. If I could go back a few years I probably would have taken the LSAT and gone straight for a JD.

Agree about the MBA basically just good for networking. But the JD/MBA accelerated programs offer you an additional degree in the same time it would take to get a law degree, so why not aim for the JD/MBA?

To the OP, I say get into a good accelerated program where both the B-School and Law school are well respected.

More expensive, 66% higher workload, and a JD is only worth it if you make Law Review.

if you want to work within a big law firm you will need to do very well and make review. Big law is even more crazy about lsat scores and gpas then banking so know this going in. the better school you go to the better chance you get of getting a better job but also fighting with better students for those jobs.

i think its a good combo and head of trading at bp is a jd grad from uh so tells you something but I would not fight the tide.

3/19/12

I would agree that a JD is more useful than an MBA; even factoring in networking, the network you make at Harvard Law is probably as good as the one you'll make at Harvard Business. That said, if you want to go in to business, the JD (by itself) may be looked askance at. If you want to go in to banking, the MBA makes sense. If you want to do M&A/finance, that's what 80% of lawyers in New York do. They are very different degrees though. It depends on what you want to do.

3/19/12

Thanks for the thoughts. I think short term analyst, long term VP/CFO or CEO. I'm 27, I feel that that I will still have time to pursue my law degree in the future if that desire is still there. Then part of me believes that if I'm doing my undergrad as business/finance and go into law, maybe I wil have the best of both worlds.

3/19/12

VP/CFO, CEO are not career goals, they are titles that can describe wildly different responsibilities within different contexts. Want to be CEO of a small, entrepreneurial company? You're wasting your time in grad school. Want to be CEO of GE? Go to GE FMP, not HBS. Want to be a VP and at some point CEO of some random fortune 500 company? Get an MBA. Want to be a CFO? Get your CPA. Also, the fact CFO is on your wish list and not GC, indicates you should avoid the JD; the MBA will serve you better, if you do go to grad school.

3/19/12

Agree with drexel.

I probably know 10+ people who are currently in law school and let me tell you, it sucks. If you aren't 100% committed to studying law, you're going to struggle significantly in law school. Also, law school is very similar to b-school in that only very few are able to obtain elite positions coming out. If you aren't able to get into a top law program AND be at the top of your class in that law program, your odds are significantly diminished. So if you're lukewarm about obtaining a JD, which it sounds you are, I'd suggest you don't make the financial nor the time commitment.

CompBanker

3/19/12

Do any of you know anything about MBA/MPP programs? Assuming you want to go into a more government-interactive role (top-level healthcare/aerospace/defense exec, etc.) would the MPP be a useful degree? Obviously it's extremely difficult to get into, but the HBS/HKS program seems like a great combo, and the degree might be a shorter (3 years) alternative to JD/MBA programs.

3/19/12
sparticus:

Do any of you know anything about MBA/MPP programs? Assuming you want to go into a more government-interactive role (top-level healthcare/aerospace/defense exec, etc.) would the MPP be a useful degree? Obviously it's extremely difficult to get into, but the HBS/HKS program seems like a great combo, and the degree might be a shorter (3 years) alternative to JD/MBA programs.

Yeah, it's a strong combination, I can tell you it will prepare you well for government/political consulting. Don't think it will do much for "government-interactive" industries - the last HKS alumni mag I leafed through (one of my parents went there), almost everyone was going to gov't/NGOs/IGOs/non-profits. HKS teaches you how to govern/save the world, not how to run a company or win gov't contracts.

3/19/12

Thanks everyone, well appreciated!

3/19/12

Drexel,

JD is not only worth it if you make the law review, that's complete garbage. In many cases, it's more valuable than an MBA - and definitely more prestigious.

Investin925,

Best of luck to you!

3/19/12

UofHgirl can you make some sense please?

3/19/12
HaHa_You_Farted:

UofHgirl can you make some sense please?

Sure, after you..

What doesn't make sense to you? Be more specific.

3/19/12

That's not true totally true, Monty90... Graduates from top law schools such as Columbia, Yale, Harvard, etc get plenty of great offers from top firms in the private sector. You don't need to be part of the law review. If you graduate from UT or UH, that's a different ball game, but your ivy law graduates still do very well post graduation (sans Law Review). And chances are if you went to a great law school, your grades and scores are up to par..

3/19/12
UofHGirl:

That's not true totally true, Monty90... Graduates from top law schools such as Columbia, Yale, Harvard, etc get plenty of great offers from top firms in the private sector. You don't need to be part of the law review. If you graduate from UT or UH, that's a different ball game, but your ivy law graduates still do very well post graduation (sans Law Review). And chances are if you went to a great law school, your grades and scores are up to par..

agree. i was speaking of the norm not the exception

3/19/12

Well for my case I'm in Houston, I'm staying in Houston. I don't have a desire to be on the East Coast for work or school, atleast not at this moment. I guess its a toss up with the JD or MBA/JD/MBA. I'm going to get one or the other but I do want to make myself more marketable, I want the prestige...and I have the desire to learn. I want to stay in finance!!! If I do work for a law firm it will be with securities, M&A's, along those lines. At the end of the day I want to be Knowledgeable, Marketable, and Bankable!!

3/19/12

I'll chime in since I'm a law student currently. Bascially, if you can get into a T14 (top 14 law schools in the country), normally, you would have had a great edge in landing a ~$160K job coming out of law school. However, recently, with the legal job market in shambles, this is not necessarily the case. Now, you need to have fairly good grades, not necessarily only Law Review (~Top 15%) but close (maybe Top 25, Top 1/3, etc.). If you dont go to one of the T14, you need to be in the very top (i.e., around Law Review) and a higher class percentage they further down your law school is ranked. And, getting into a T14 in general, is very difficult. For instance, some schools not even ranked as part of the T14 have a median LSAT score of 165 which is around the 90th percentile.

3/19/12

I would love to hear updated thougths about the JD/MBA now that the market is starting to turn the corner. I have been working in Sales & Trading for five years, and am now strongly considering my JD/MBA. Columbia is my top choice because I want to stay in NYC. Here are some stats

- Georgetown Undergrad, 3.67gpa
- 5years w/e
- did not take GMAT or lsat yet but did well on SATs
- female, minority - so can likely get a few diversity scholarships to help pay
- enjoy finance and the business world but want to get outside of the myopic world of sales & trading. highly intellectually curious, want to step up my negotations/deal making skills, interested in Real estate , entrepreneurship and fashion . Basically i want options!!!

My questions are:
1) has anyone done the JD/MBA (columbia or not) and what do they think are the pros/cons?
2) why did you choose to pursue it and how are you using it in your current job?
3) would you agree that this combo puts an entrepreneur, especially a young one, on a bigger playing field when it comes to getting stuff done. access to capital, networking, skill set, etc. ?

3/19/12

don't know a whole lot about JD/MBA, but here is a fact that i do know: I have two friends with JD/MBA (one from Michigan one from Columbia), both of them have been working in finance since, i.e. jobs that they could have gotten with just the MBA degrees. it's kind of a sensitive topic when I speak to them about this, as both try to reason that the JD is relevant to their job, but the truth is that it's not. i'm sure having the extra education, experience and exposure to law helps, and may have even made them more appealing in the recruiting process, but i really don't think it was a game-changer for either one of them.

so the question i would ask you is: what is your career goal (and i mean a specific goal, not just a general preference), and why do you actually NEED both degrees for it? i think that is the most important question.

3/19/12

If its something you want to pursue and time and money aren't an issue by all means do so. But you're really tacking about 100k onto whatever program you are more interested. You still pay the fees for both schools, I don't believe you get a discount.

I don't think they will help you get jobs either. The MBA won't give you a leg up for a law job and the JD won't give you a leg up in finance. The are totally separate industries. They work in harmony. Clients hire law firms for the legal aspect of a transaction and a bank for the financial aspect. It's not like you could spin yourself to the bank as having a skill set thats different because that work is outsourced regardless.

I'd advise saving yourself the time and money. Decide what you enjoy more and then get that degree.

As an aside, you can never be an attorney with an MBA but there are JD bankers.

3/19/12

Unless you are going to practice law (i.e. pass the state bar, work in a specific practice at a law firm), a JD has no real value in the job market.

Keep in mind that an MBA is a generalist degree -- and business is a generalist profession. In other words, your ability to be a successful businessman (or businesswoman) comes down to your decision-making skills across a lot of situations - making the final call on the pricing of a product, putting together a sales pitch, looking over your CFO's numbers, etc. And on top of that, managing a group of functional specialists (accountants, engineers, product managers, back office, etc.) Even in banking, an MD is a mini-CEO of his little business, managing a lot of moving parts and teams of people. As a business professional, you are being paid to be responsible for everything without being a master of any specific function. In short, running a business is about being an exceptional generalist.

The legal profession is the opposite - it's similar to medicine. A JD is a generalist degree that covers the *theoretical* and foundational aspects of the legal system - the basic philosophical foundations for how laws are made, the court system, the foundations for how legal disputes are handled, and so forth. This may be a great entryway into the legal profession, but that knowledge alone has little to no practical use. That sort of broad coverage of the legal landscape can't really help you in SPECIFIC legal situations.

The legal profession is one of specialists, because the situations are so specific. And you don't develop that expertise to handle specific legal situations until you actually become a practicing lawyer who *specializes* in a specific practice and has real case experience.

You're not going to ask a divorce lawyer for advice on your buddy's immgiration papers. You're not going to ask a litigator to look over SEC documents. You're not going to ask an employment/labor attorney about your impending divorce. All of these people are "attorneys" but they have as much expertise outside their practice as you do - a securities law attorney isn't going to represent his cousin's copyright infringement suit.

Again, law is way more like medicine - you're not going to ask a dentist to conduct a colonoscopy. You're not going to ask an orthopedic surgeon to perform an eye exam. And you're certainly not going to let the hospital administrator who happens to have an MD/MBA (but was never a practicing physician of any sort) to perform bypass surgery on your father without a phalanx of experienced surgeons and cardiologists leading the charge - in fact, you probably want that hospital administrator out of the operating room entirely.

Medicine and law are very similar that way. In medicine, the value of a doctor isn't his degree - it's his experience. A great brain surgeon is someone who has performed thousands of procedures on the brain. The value is in the repetition - doing the same sorts of procedures over and over and over. Same with law. For example, for a litigator the value is dealing with law suits over and over and over and over so that they know litigations inside out. Or the securities lawyer who has drafted the same damn SEC documents over and over and over and over, over 10-20 years so that he knows that process inside out. In both professions, the experience and familiarity through repetition is the real value because it ensures the highest chance of success and lowest chance of negligent screw ups.

And the argument about the JD being useful for dealing with other lawyers is bunk. First, you're a fool for having yourself as a client (again it's like performing your own surgery). Secondly, being able to understand some aspects of contracts isn't really going to save money -- because you have to hire lawyers anyways if the work you're doing is important enough. And finally, there are few things more annoying for a lawyer than having to deal with a client (with a JD) who presumes to know more than he/she really does, and/or tries to use the situation to showcase his "legal knowledge" because hey, I have a JD! By trying to be all lawyer-ish actually makes it more counterproductive than letting the lawyer do his job.

In short, the best way to handle legal matters as a business professional is to hire experienced and capable lawyers that are appropriate for the legal situation you're faced with - and let them handle it. And if the law partner or counsel is incompetent, your JD isn't going to save the day.

The JD/MBA makes sense for aspiring attorneys who want a business background -- and not business professionals looking for a legal one.

3/19/12
MBAApply:

Unless you are going to practice law (i.e. pass the state bar, work in a specific practice at a law firm), a JD has no real value in the job market.

Keep in mind that an MBA is a generalist degree -- and business is a generalist profession. In other words, your ability to be a successful businessman (or businesswoman) comes down to your decision-making skills across a lot of situations - making the final call on the pricing of a product, putting together a sales pitch, looking over your CFO's numbers, etc. And on top of that, managing a group of functional specialists (accountants, engineers, product managers, back office, etc.) Even in banking, an MD is a mini-CEO of his little business, managing a lot of moving parts and teams of people. As a business professional, you are being paid to be responsible for everything without being a master of any specific function. In short, running a business is about being an exceptional generalist.

The legal profession is the opposite - it's similar to medicine. A JD is a generalist degree that covers the *theoretical* and foundational aspects of the legal system - the basic philosophical foundations for how laws are made, the court system, the foundations for how legal disputes are handled, and so forth. This may be a great entryway into the legal profession, but that knowledge alone has little to no practical use. That sort of broad coverage of the legal landscape can't really help you in SPECIFIC legal situations.

The legal profession is one of specialists, because the situations are so specific. And you don't develop that expertise to handle specific legal situations until you actually become a practicing lawyer who *specializes* in a specific practice and has real case experience.

You're not going to ask a divorce lawyer for advice on your buddy's immgiration papers. You're not going to ask a litigator to look over SEC documents. You're not going to ask an employment/labor attorney about your impending divorce. All of these people are "attorneys" but they have as much expertise outside their practice as you do - a securities law attorney isn't going to represent his cousin's copyright infringement suit.

Again, law is way more like medicine - you're not going to ask a dentist to conduct a colonoscopy. You're not going to ask an orthopedic surgeon to perform an eye exam. And you're certainly not going to let the hospital administrator who happens to have an MD/MBA (but was never a practicing physician of any sort) to perform bypass surgery on your father without a phalanx of experienced surgeons and cardiologists leading the charge - in fact, you probably want that hospital administrator out of the operating room entirely.

Medicine and law are very similar that way. In medicine, the value of a doctor isn't his degree - it's his experience. A great brain surgeon is someone who has performed thousands of procedures on the brain. The value is in the repetition - doing the same sorts of procedures over and over and over. Same with law. For example, for a litigator the value is dealing with law suits over and over and over and over so that they know litigations inside out. Or the securities lawyer who has drafted the same damn SEC documents over and over and over and over, over 10-20 years so that he knows that process inside out. In both professions, the experience and familiarity through repetition is the real value because it ensures the highest chance of success and lowest chance of negligent screw ups.

And the argument about the JD being useful for dealing with other lawyers is bunk. First, you're a fool for having yourself as a client (again it's like performing your own surgery). Secondly, being able to understand some aspects of contracts isn't really going to save money -- because you have to hire lawyers anyways if the work you're doing is important enough. And finally, there are few things more annoying for a lawyer than having to deal with a client (with a JD) who presumes to know more than he/she really does, and/or tries to use the situation to showcase his "legal knowledge" because hey, I have a JD! By trying to be all lawyer-ish actually makes it more counterproductive than letting the lawyer do his job.

In short, the best way to handle legal matters as a business professional is to hire experienced and capable lawyers that are appropriate for the legal situation you're faced with - and let them handle it. And if the law partner or counsel is incompetent, your JD isn't going to save the day.

The JD/MBA makes sense for aspiring attorneys who want a business background -- and not business professionals looking for a legal one.

Couldn't a JD on its own be a generalist degree to some extent. Most of us known that JD's get jobs on the street without an MBA. Besides practicing law, a JD can also open doors as a lobbyist, hollywood agent, politician. Could the degree (a JD on its own) be considered 'generalist' since it opens many doors in different areas?

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
3/19/12

Don't confuse "JD" with "practicing lawyer". Most politicians are lawmakers - they don't just have JDs, but spent time practicing law before going for elected office - they're not fresh law grads. Hollywood agents run the gamut - it's not about a JD, MBA, etc as it is about a combination of getting in the door through hustle and having some pedigree (it's the university name, not the specific degree program) - and, a good number of them happen to have had a previous life as attorneys. Lobbyists by and large have backgrounds as practicing lawyers.

The *experience* of being a lawyer can open doors - just don't confuse that with just the degree itself.

If you want a generalist degree that opens doors, do an MBA - that's what it's for. Adding a JD on top of an MBA isn't going to "open more doors" than an MBA on its own.

If you want to spend extra money to "be more impressive" save the additional money you'd spend on a dual degree and buy a Porsche instead to go with your MBA. You'll be much happier and arguably the Porsche will do more for your life than a JD if you don't practice law. :-)

3/19/12

The reason for wanting the JD is not just for the title itself. I am not ruling out the idea of practicing law, but what scares me most is that even though I would enjoy the experience and challenge of cases and litigation; I'm certainly not a "sit in a cubicle and crank through 1000s of documents" kind of girl. In an ideal world, my career would be a non-traditional path like working for a boutique advisory firm or starting my own private wealth management company that incorporates estate planning, etc. I have no desire to go through 3-4 years of school only to come out and as a desk drone/ Associate hoping I get promoted. I want to come out a big player, swinging big. And I think the JD/MBA will prepare me for entrepreneurship, leadership and a clear understanding of the way business works , the legal issues that are inevitably present, and the problem solving that leads to ultimate success.

I would certainly not be opposed to practicing law post-Grad school in a business-related area. For example, Real Estate or Restructuring/Advisory.....I'd love to talk one-on-one to anyone who started as an Associate practicing law in such fields. Anyone out there ????

3/19/12

Sorry, no one is coming out a big play, swinging big. That's ridiculous.

Alex gave a beyond thorough analysis of JD/MBA path. Did you read it? You say you have "no desire" to be a "desk drone". Or that maybe you would be open to the idea of possibly being an attorney. You should not go to law school. Its a intense 3 years and 150k for something you're kinda interested. To open up the doors that the JD provides, typically one must work at a big law, or any law firm for that matter, to gain the necessary experience. As Alex eluded, law is a specialization similar to medicine. Your first several years you are learning the ropes much like a doctor is in his respective residency. You can't be an associate at a firm for 1-2 year and then think you have the pedigree or knowledge to do you own thing. Additionally, these firms usually require 2000 billable hours a year.

Even the business route of say wealth management. You need experience both in terms of knowledge and client book before you can even dream of starting you own company. Again, as Alex pointed out, a JD is not going to help you out with this.

There are no short cuts in life. Fancy degrees don't let you cut lines. They merely put you in a position to gain valuable experience through hard work so one day, if you choose, you can blaze your own trail.

3/19/12

No expectations to come out of school swinging big.... am merely referring to long term goals. To come out of my experience - school, work, etc.... achieving the utmost success because I was ready for it.

I know there are no shortcuts. I worked in finance for 5 years so I'm familiar with the typical path up the learning curve and the corporate ladder... however, I am not looking to get there by being a desk drone for something I'm not passionate about. The problem for me right now is that I'm in an overpaid job that i don't love...so now it's about figuring out ...well, if I don't want to stay in it for the money, and I know I want to do something else, what's the best way to plan for that....

I have no doubts that the plan requires a lot of hard work.

3/19/12

Is there a question? Of course a fucking JD/MBA from Harvard is of worth.

It looks like you just came here to boast about your achievements.

3/19/12

Ari Gold has a JD/MBA...from Michigan doe.

Disclaimer for the Kids: Any forward-looking statements are solely for informational purposes and cannot be taken as investment advice. Consult your moms before deciding where to invest.

3/19/12

It's settled. The most logical course of action is to transfer from Harvard to Michigan and do their JD/MBA. (He was Harvard undergrad though)

3/19/12

It isnt really worth it in terms of time and opportunity cost.

If you want to be a lawyer that deals HEAVILY with finance/transactions...ok it may be worth it (but you still may be ok with sampling classes from HBS).

If you want to be in business, it is not worth it, just get a MBA

a JD is for practicing law. If not, you will wonder why the f you are sitting learning about Torts and personal injury when that is nowhere near what you want to do.

And I speak from facts. It is absolute torture learning about criminal law, torts, etc when that has 0 to do with what you want to do, unless u want to practice law

3/19/12

He's already started the jd program though. He's pretty much guaranteed big law if he wants it. And he can probably get an Associate position (instead of post-mba, post-jd) So, he is wondering whether it makes sense to add the one extra year of the mba program.

My thought is why not. Can't get a better mba program so if you get in go for it. Also, even though you're paying for the full-cost it is one less year of opportunity cost than if you did them separately. (160,000 since you're a lock for big law)

3/19/12

@Kana, What is it that you want to do after completing graduate school? I think that will factor a lot into what your answer should be.

Secondly, if you have accomplished this much academically, I'm amazed you cannot figure this out yourself...

Still amazed with your accomplishments, man. Keep up the good work!

3/19/12

It'd be a good conversation starter if you ever want to make friends with Mitt Romney.

Eager to learn

3/19/12

Mitt Romney only did a joint MBA/JD because even though he wanted an MBA, his father wanted him to get a JD as well.

3/19/12
RonSwanson123:

Mitt Romney only did a joint MBA/JD because even though he wanted an MBA, his father wanted him to get a JD as well.

what percentage of 21 years apply to JD programs only because their parents wanted them to?

Eager to learn

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3/19/12

Why did you go to law school if your end goal is MBB? Also, could your JD/MBA program be done in 3 years or will it take an extra year?

3/19/12

Yes, I think you have a shot. Forget about the JD/MBA; they are only useful if you want to start off practicing law. At worst, it may indicate that you are confused and don't know what you want to do with your life.

3/19/12

I agree with falcon that the MBA/JD (and almost any joint graduate degree) isn't worth the time or cost; you'll never get as much out of it as you put into it.

Go to an M7 (which you should be able to) and you'll have access to the jobs you're describing. There is some great content on WSO and online in general about an MBA/JD, and from a cursorily glance, most aren't too keen on recommending it.

3/19/12

I don't think you should aim for a JD/MBA but it is certainly not frowned upon. My friends uncle is the cohead of M&A at a BB and he is a JD/MBA. He's one of the top dealmakers right now.

I think the point that people are trying to make by saying that JD/MBA's have no direction is that by doing a JD MBA it seems like you may not be sure of your interests or goals for the future. You can offset that by doing internships that are relative to banking or whatever you are aiming for. I don't see the purpose of an Mba/JD unless you are trying to go into biglaw or something. Can't hurt, but it also costs a lot.

As for the MBA straight out of undergrad. I think the general consensus here about that is that MBA's are used as lateral's into different jobs and for career switches. If you can get a job directly out of college in something that you want to do, by all means take that and fuck the MBA. If you decide you hate what you do/prefer to do something else, you can get your MBA a few years in and switch to whatever it is you are aiming for.

This is coming from someone who is not a banker, but I think my advice still holds accurate.

Merry Christmas

3/19/12

No MBA program worth your time or money will accept you without substantial work experience. As for the JD/MBA, it really depends on what you want to do at the time you are considering graduate school. If you want to pursue IB at a decent sized MM or BB, a JD is not necessary. My impression of the JD/MBA combo is that it is held by a lot of guys at shops where the head count is 3 to 10 and there is far less deal flow than your typical MM or BB. That way, one or two of them are barred in the state where the bank is located, and can handle a large portion of the legal work in-house. I also think the decision to pursue a duel-degree program as such is influenced largely by personal motivation and interest. I must say, it would be pretty badass to have the perspective, knowledge, and outlook provided by both of those degrees simultaneously.

Regardless, I would advise you to stay away from any MBA program until you have at least 2 years of work experience out of undergrad. Unless you want to be an attorney, and in that case, get straight A's and go to the best law school that will take you directly out of undergrad. Boom.

3/19/12

The only area I can think of where it would be directly relevant is restructuring/distressed debt. I assume they would think highly of you since much of their investment performance ends up depending on legal outcomes.

But to say its looked down upon when not directly relevant- I don't think so. It just isn't a plus.

3/19/12

I don't know how much it helps credential-wise, but from what I've heard it's useful for your skillset in the long-run.

Sam Zell(the guy who sold Equity Office Properties to Blackstone) had lunch with me and a few other people BC of my real estate class at Wharton and he said that even though he worked as a lawyer for only about two days, the actual legal education he got from University of Michigan was priceless in how he thought and worked.

Also, the Harvard JD/MBA is ridiculously pretigious. From what I know(and not much it is) only a few people get to do the program.

3/19/12

my opinion is that, if you're getting a Harvard MBA, it would be a waste of time, and lots of $$, to get a law degree. theres no job you can get with a JD/MBA that you can't get with an MBA, unless you include legal jobs, which suck.

_______________________________________
http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/

3/19/12

Lol I am guessing this isn't mark klein MD from dealbook?

3/19/12

practice law or business? are you a career academic, or do you just lack the common sense (i.e. suck) to get a job without 15 terminal degrees?

I guess I'd hire you, but you would be working for a guy with just his B.A. -guess you should get used to that!

3/19/12

Ultimately, investment management. You know, hedge funds, mutual funds, LBO, such stuff like that.

I figure a background knowledge of the law would help once you get higher up since the securities industry is so damn heavily regulated.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

3/19/12

You're right having a law degree helps to some extent. From what I've observed, people with law degrees typically intend to practice law and then decide it's not panning out and jump into banking. They usually do well given that they're smart (usually proven by getting through rigorous law schools), although it's debatable how much the actual JD contributes. However, if you're intent on jumping into finance then there's not reason to get a JD, just stick with the MBA.

3/19/12

I should mention that I'm looking into venture capital too.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

3/19/12

I was under the impression that VCs really don't care much at all for any degree unless it's engineering-related.

3/19/12

VCs will care more about industry experience than they will about any degree you're going to get.

3/19/12

How does an MSF look on my resume for like hedge funds and stuff? You know, a master's degree in finance....why not PhD? It takes too long.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

3/19/12

I think it's really idiosyncratic. For some people it's a great option, for others it's a waste of time. You will likely be the best memo-writer at your bank by a large margin, or you'll understand a little bit more about the business side of your clients issues at a law practice. That being said, from a hiring standpoint, it probably made me less desirable to employers, I know plenty of people that don't know their M's from their A's that go on to top 10 BigLaw M&A practices, and frankly, I didn't have enough practical knowledge of what the lawyers were doing to ever chime in on that side when i was at a bank.

For me personally, I think the two skills are very complementary. You always have at least two different approaches at analysing problems, the lawyer, and the banker, and you do them on the fly.

PM if you have specific q's.

3/19/12

what school are you obtaining your JD/MBA from?

Wu noAi re

3/19/12

From Santa Clara University

3/19/12

I don't know as much about Santa Clara's MBA program, but I do know the JD program is strong. I have ~5 friends who graduated from their law school and found employment before graduation at law firms through the school's career resources. Have you done on campus recruiting? Networked with alumni?

3/19/12

Aside from missing the big IB app deadlines in the fall, I also missed a large chunk of the on campus law recruiting, simply because at the time I was unaware I would be graduating a full year early. In some ways, being on top of finishing the program so early has made me miss the boat on the big recruiting timeframes this year. Now I'm stuck at trying to dig out the smaller opportunities and daily checking online job boards.

The MBA program was ranked in the top 40, the JD is ranked in the top 100.

3/19/12

PM me, will try to give you more specified advice.

Wu noAi re

3/19/12

Why don't you just extend? If you are graduating in 3, don't you have to pay 4 years tuition anyways?

3/19/12

I actually save money this way, but I guess I'm also just tired of schooling and ready to enter the real world to start making a salary instead of more debt. At this point, I just have to finish this semester and I'm done, so I guess I've past the point of no return in that regard.

3/19/12

Given your background with the bankruptcy litigation internship and law school, I think you should check out restructuring

3/19/12

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll look into that as well. Got any particular companies or resources in mind for jobs in that area?

3/19/12

(1) boutique IB, (2) valuations, (3) legal position in M&A/transactions, (4) transaction advisory for a big four acct firm are all the best choices for you. (1) and (4) are probably more ideal for you if you want to be in IB faster. I don't think Santa Clara is a target for most IBs, so just keep networking so that you get your name out there for those firms. Try to see if you can still do campus recruiting or use the resources of your career center even for a bit after you graduate.

For the lead! Sipag, tiyaga, at lakas ng loob!

3/19/12

Thankfully I believe I still have access for the career center for the year following graduation. Have any ideas in particular re: networking?

3/19/12

I'd really target other JD/MBAs (especially at the boutiques, which don't always follow the typical recruiting timelines)

3/19/12

I would start with alumni in the field and email them/find them on Linkedin and proceed to reach out via phone. Learn more about the job, tell them a bit more about yourself, and ask if they can pass on your resume (whether to another contact or through their firm). Keep following up and expressing your interest!

For the lead! Sipag, tiyaga, at lakas ng loob!

3/19/12

shouldn't help much if at all

3/19/12

_

3/19/12

You almost need to be a lawyer to be a senior level restructuring banker

3/19/12

does that mean you're currently unemployed?

Wu noAi re

3/19/12

Most law grads are.

3/19/12

That's why going outside the top 14 schools is ridiculous... but even after blowing 200k and 3 years of your life you're making less than some 22 year old banker kid.

3/19/12

Have you thought about patent law? I heard those ppl get the highest paying jobs.

3/19/12

Talent agent:

Disclaimer for the Kids: Any forward-looking statements are solely for informational purposes and cannot be taken as investment advice. Consult your moms before deciding where to invest.

3/19/12

Not at all. Plenty of folks go for a dual degree and it can make a lot of sense depending on your circumstances. This is of course an individual decision, but it is common and helps folks who want to work at the intersection of business and law. There are many things you can do with a dual degree. If you have specific questions about your situation and goals, feel free to reach out. [email protected]

3/19/12

Use the search. There have been very in depth discussions exactly on this topic over the past 3 months.

In short, unless you want to practice law, don't waste the time and extra tens of thousands of dollars. Tell yourself you want to do distressed debt investing or that knowing the legal aspect of deals will help you, but unless you practice for a couple of years, the degree isn't as useful as many think. Absolutely don't do it for the impressive prestige and resume you think you'll get. That's possibly the worst reason.

3/19/12

Most schools that have MBA and Law programs let you take some electives at the other graduate schools, I'm attending a school that is top 10 in both business and law this fall and plan on taking 1 or 2 law school electives during my second year.

3/19/12

Like @brooksfit said - I'm not sure you really get any value from the JD unless you actually practice and get some field reps on doing deals from the legal side. Sure it helps your understanding of legal docs when you're doing deals, but that isn't worth an extra year of school if you don't plan on practicing law.

  •  3/19/12

"What do you think about the joint degree program? I was thinking about applying to it b/c if I did get a job in business knowing the law would be good and I am also considering working in a law firm that specializes in business law. I am not sure if having the extra credentials help out any. What are your opinions?"

A JD/MBA sounds good in theory. In reality, the dual degree makes it much more difficult to get a good job in either field. Major law firms won't hire someone they think will just bail for an I-bank after two years, and I-banks and top consulting firms don't want anyone who isn't 100% committed to the job. Corporate law firms expect their lawyers to understand basic finance, but you're not there to do the bankers' job for them. Similarly, investment banks call in lawyers when legal issues come up - if you were a banker you wouldn't even be allowed to answer a legal question yourself.

That said, while a JD/MBA is not useful at all for someone considering investment banking, consulting, or large firm corporate law, it can be beneficial for certain career goals. If you plan to start a small business, then it can help to do the legal work yourself instead of relying on expensive outside lawyers. And if you want to work for a small law firm where many of your clients are small businesses, many of them will ask their lawyers to give business advice as well as legal advice.

3/19/12

Thank you very much.

3/19/12

Yes.

3/19/12

lloyd blankfein

3/19/12

A JD is not only useless in terms of helping you get a job in finance, it's increasingly useless in terms of getting you a job, period.

3/19/12
drexelalum11:

A JD is not only useless in terms of helping you get a job in finance, it's increasingly useless in terms of getting you a job, period.

hahahahaha

yah all the lawyers ive met who just graduated have pretty said the exact same thing

looking for that pick-me-up to power through an all-nighter?
3/19/12

yes! why would anyone think it would be a good use of time for getting a job in finance?

most people in finance would probably hate studying for a jd

3/19/12
zbb:

yes! why would anyone think it would be a good use of time for getting a job in finance?

most people in finance would probably hate studying for a jd

Why would they gate studying for a JD? Are the two that different?

I'm in university right now, and for me, and I'm deeply passionate about both areas. It would be a shame if they couldn't be combined in some way.

3/19/12

I agree. I know down the line I'm considering a dual JD/MBA eventually...

3/19/12

JD/MBA is nice. JD by itself is a world of pain.

3/19/12

JD/MBA is nice. JD by itself is a world of pain.

3/19/12

if you want to be a lawyer get jd... that is all it is good for

3/19/12

what is the point of getting a jd-mba? it seems like the mba by itself adds very little value, and on top of that, you can get a position as an assoc if you've got a jd, so what's the point of getting both?

3/19/12
redtea:

what is the point of getting a jd-mba? it seems like the mba by itself adds very little value, and on top of that, you can get a position as an assoc if you've got a jd, so what's the point of getting both?

how about wanting to strike it out on your own in the future? In that case, wouldn't having both be quite valuable?

3/19/12

why would you need an MBA to strike out on your own though? I feel like there is very little you can get from an MBA that you can't teach yourself if you are fairly competent (correct me if I'm wrong....)

3/19/12

read the other posts on subject.

3/19/12

If you want to practice law for a bit then go for the JD. No need to do both. You could take a bunch of business school electives that count towards your JD and you would get a good business education regardless. If you know you want to go into IB or PE, just go for an MBA. The only way the JD/MBA combo would be an advantage is if you are going to a non-target school and may need something else to stand out.

3/19/12

I would potentially go to 3 year JD/MBA at either Upenn (Wharton) or Northwestern (Kellogg). I'd consider Harvard as well, but they make you do it in 4 years, which seems like a LONG time.

3/19/12

Not necessary to get a JD in you're situation unless you want to do it for your own understanding of the law (which I must admit, would be certainly satisfying).

3/19/12

From a career standpoint, I'd say one or the other, but not both (unless you want to have your own business some day in which case they are both beneficial). Bear in mind, MBA can be "learned" with a few books, you go b school for the networking and access. Law is a bit of a different deal, though there are few worse job markets right now.

If you are just looking to learn and have some years and money to kill then knock yourself out.

3/19/12

If i work in McDonalds for three years, is that like an analyst stint too. I mean, it's three years right?

"After you work on Wall Street it's a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side." - David Tepper

3/19/12

People bypass analyst stints all the time...

3/19/12

money money money money:

People bypass analyst stints all the time...


Yea, once they've worked in industry, or somewhere finance related etc for a meaningful time, then get their MBA.

"After you work on Wall Street it's a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side." - David Tepper

3/19/12

OP is helpless. Don't even bother.

3/19/12

I know one guy who completed a Stanford MBA after graduation (undergrad) and he's working as GS (IBD) now... as an analyst.

3/19/12

Bypass the analyst stint and reach the highly coveted IBD Associate role!

3/19/12

I know quite a few people who went right into an MBA program after graduating and bypassed the analyst step.

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********

3/19/12

Bro, if you can get into HBS straight out of undergrad, you should be dreaming bigger than "BB associate."

3/19/12

LBJ's hair:

Bro, if you can get into HBS straight out of undergrad, you should be dreaming bigger than "BB associate."

Pffff. like what?! President of the United States? You have to be atleast 35 for that.

Honestly though, you're not exactly "skipping" the analyst role any more than anyone else that gets an MBA. The way your question sounds, it seems like you think you're pulling a fast one by getting a JD/MBA to become a banking associate.

If you're at a top 10 MBA program, I don't see why you can't get into banking. I would caution against going to an anything but top 10 MBA program and thinking that getting a joint JD/MBA will somehow make you a stronger candidate. Not true.

As for the guy who went to become an analyst after a Stanford MBA, thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. What a complete waste of a fucking Stanford MBA... not because he went into banking, but because he went in 3 years below what his degree (which happens to be among the best MBA degrees out there) would get him access to.

3/19/12

Why do the JD/MBA? It's worthless, you either do business or you practice law. BigLaw happens to be even more soul crushing than IB and pays less too. If you care about business law take a course or two while you're going for your MBA, get a book on it, don't waste two years and $150,000 for an extra piece of wallpaper.

3/19/12

The JD/MBA route is the best. For sure. Have had several friends do the Penn program and get into NW. More intellectually curious MD's at firms will think more highly of you. I wouldn't even consider just law school or an MBA in fact.

I rich, smarts, and totally in debt.

3/19/12

Hello John

If you wish to apply to top business schools then one of the prerequisites is having significant work experience. Generally candidates have around 4-5 years of full time experience in spite of several term time projects or jobs; so you may be competing with other candidates who have 4-5 years of full time experience and have started significant initiatives at college.

Hence, we would advise you to gain some full time work experience before you decide to apply for an MBA. If you don't wish to do so them, you could look at the HBS 2+2 program or the Yale Silver Scholars program.
The criteria remain the same for joint programs.

Thanks!
Kavita Singh
FutureWorks Consulting
Pre Application Strategies|Admission Consulting |Pre-Departure Coaching|Workshops

Find out where you stand with our Free Assessment Test or drop your resume at [email protected]

3/19/12

Getting a jd is worthless unless you want to practice law(and even then may still be worth close to nothing)

3/19/12

Unfortunately the name of your B-school is extremely important in the process of associate recruiting. Top 25 is pretty vague and in all honesty recruiting by the bigger banks tends to trail off significantly after the top 10 or 15. You don't have to mention the school you go to, but it helps if you could mention some similar ranking peers.

Also, your first semester does not matter a single bit in summer recruiting, as banks begin filtering out candidates as early as the first few weeks of school (during info sessions, they will start making up their minds about who to invite to closed rounds).

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