University of Toronto - Rotman Commerce
University of Toronto - Rotman School of Commerce.
How is it for an undergrad major?
From forums, it seems Queen's > UoFT, yet whenever I speak to anyone in a bank, they all say they would choose UoFT over Queen's any day.
From Montreal, living in NYC.
For undergrad business in Canada I think Ivey at UWO is the most well-respected and represented in the States. Not sure if that's different in Canada, but from what I recall Queens, McGill, and Ivey at UWO are all significantly better than UofT.
Yeah, that's what I keep hearing, yet when I talk to people from firms in Canada, such as Deloitte, they keep saying the same thing - UoFT > Queen's/UWO/McGill when it comes to their recruitment...
That's true, but it was just an example - a couple of people in IB also say the same...
I'm pretty much deciding between Queen's and Rotman, so far Rotman seems like what I'm going to choose due to the fact that whenever I speak to someone in the financial sector, the majority of them recommend Rotman over Queen's.
I'm not happy with Rotman's bell curve though :(
I don't know who you're talking to but I can say with certainty that Queen's>>>>Rotman. Rotman is good if you want to go into accounting, but horrible if you want to get into investment banking.
Hmm.
I've gotten into Queen's and Rotman, choosing between the two.
Could anyone who has the time just state a couple of pros/cons for the two? I'm researching them as I type this, but it seems to be a bit hard to find some good information :|
Here...
Rotman: Pro - Its in Toronto/close to banks Con - Not as well represented
Queens: Pro - well represented Con - Not in Toronto/far from banks
Happy?
If I were you, I'd go with Queens.
Mezz, you're an excellent poster on these forums. Did you go to school in Canada?
Agreed. OCR at Queen's is tops in Canada, along with Ivey. Queen's has a lot more students placed into IB than Rotman Commerce, hand over fist. Queen's also considered more prestigious, great student life (if you're into all that), etc. If you really don't want to live in Kingston, then you may reconsider it but I think the benefits are worth it.
Congratulations on your university offers.
:P thanks, that's pretty much what I have down
also, for Queen's:
--> 93% employed in 5 months --> Higher salaries (average) --> Better placements (FOR IB) (average)
The undergraduate program at Toronto is not affiliated with the Rotman school. It sucks.
I have a friend who spent his first two years there and HATED it. He was a top student, did tons of extracurriculars, but found it nearly impossible to land internships. He transferred to Ivey and hasn't looked back since. He managed to get a top notch position out of Canada for the summer. I know that Ivey isn't Queens, but the two have similar (Ivey has a bit of an edge from my understanding) success in recruiting.
I think i know who you're talking there :) This guy is working for a Euro IB in London correct? From what I've heard, he wasn't the most popular dude due to his cut throat approach. Couple firms blacklisted him cause he decided to play with his graduating years/GPA on his resume.
Back to the topic, if you are thinking about finance, Queens all the way UofT's undergrad finance job placement is weak at the say the least.
^ could you please expand on that?
Thanks, bobby.
Alright, thanks guys. I think I'm going to be sticking with Queen's then.
Also, for anyone in my same situation, here's some good (Canadian Business Schools) resources:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/queens-u-target-school-or-just-th… http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/queens-commerce-vs-western-ivey-v… http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/schulich-for-ib-opportunities http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/canadian-undergrad-business http://forums.studentawards.com/yaf_postsm374209_Queens-vs-Rotman.aspx#… http://forums.studentawards.com/yaf_postst8829_Rotman-Commerce-vs-Queen…
Cheers.
^Good choice, you've saved yourself a lot of heartache down the line. DontMakeMeShortYou is absolutely correct in that it's VERY difficult to land internships at UoT:
1) because the OCR sucks/non-existent, 2) Number of students and difficulty to be a 'top student' - so only the top GPA scorers get interviews (though they may not be too 'finance savvy', so they lose out to the more polished students at Ivey/Queens even when they do get interviews). It's WAY more students fighting for fewer spots, 3) it's close to Toronto, but you won't get quite the same university experience as you would in a more university-enclosed town like Kingston (Queens) or London (Ivey/UWO). I know this isn't really job-related, but you should try and have fun your 4 years in school before getting worked in banking/consulting/or wherever you plan to go. You don't want to burn out before you get there. When I was considering the 3 schools, I was scared off on UoT Commerce by a current student there at a recruiting event. She did me a total solid for being truthful.
Thanks for the information, Kanon.
That's pretty useful stuff.
Also, does anyone know how ones chances at a top business school for MBA differ from going to a Canadian university, as opposed to an American? I know a few people who were accepted to Ivy league schools but are choosing to go to Canadian schools instead due to the cost differential. I didn't apply to any American schools due to said cost differential - not that I'd get into Ivy League schools though.
Queen's > Rotman
No one seems to mention McMaster, they have their own trading floor and place a good % of their commerce grads in finance - CIBC World Markets is a sponsor of their trading floor. Not to mention, the trader in residence program which hosts many guests like CIBC WM's CEO, Raymond James's CEO and many other successful personalities in the Canadian finance world.
:| mcmaster isn't known for business...
I know they have their own trading floor and all, but I wouldn't feel very comfortable regarding my future job prospects.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter where you go as long as its in the top 10 Canadian rankings. I've managed to get my self into 2 internship programs this summer and It had NOTHING with where I go to school. The internships are in the mid east though. For a freshman, a rotational in an investment bank and then an IBD stint at another Investment bank is not bad..
I'm not gloating, just saying..It's all GPA + networking at the end of the day..
GPA? You freely admitted you got your position at Noor because your parents know the chairman? a 3.7 in Canada (Assuming you don't go to Ivey/Queens) is pretty mediocre and most can't land internships at any point. I'm not excluding myself, I had a freshman IBD internship too, in Canada to boot, but I know I didn't get it on my own merit, and the only people I wouldn't tell that are future employers. In my experience, all freshman interns are just rich kids who need something to do for the summer that sounds good at their mom's cocktail parties. No offence, It's just that kids shouldn't get the impression that if they can't network a freshman internship they're doing something wrong.
WOW!
It's all GPA + networking??? Well your networking skills must be on steroids, if you got two ib internships from a non target with a 3.6 GPA. Or WAIT! Looks like it was your DADDY who got you the job. You're a funny person CNB90. I know exactly what is possible with GPA and networking because I hail from a non target also. I guess it is POSSIBLE, but what you say..... man, i dont know what to say to you, you just make me angry.
P.S - Scotia capital hires 10 MBA students on average every year from Mcmaster. CIBC WM is a sponsor of the Mcmaster trading floor and also hires top student traders.
Some of the firms also hiring from Mcmaster: Bell, CIBC WM, BMO CM, TD securities,RBC CM, National bank financial,Scotia capital, various asset management firms, all big 4, Kraft, P&G, and imperial oil.
http://www.degroote.mcmaster.ca/recruit/documents/ocr_erlist_000.pdf
I'm not a fanboy, I'm just getting annoyed with all this target school crap. If you want something go out and get it, show poeple your ambitious personality and succesful academic track record. No one's going to turn you down because of where you go for school - thats just silly.
Agreed, but its just exponentially harder to get your first IB or even trading gig after graduating from a school like McMaster.
Btw, Myron Scholes (co-formulator of the Black-Scholes equation and a Nobel Prize laureate) did his Economics undergrad at McMaster. Just sayin.
Something tells me OP got rejected by McMaster....
Definitely choose Queen's Commerce instead of UofT Commerce, QC is better in almost every aspect, aside from possibly international reputation (which doesn't matter much when it comes to landing Toronto/NY/London banking jobs). UofT only sends a small handful of students into banking, and mostly to the smaller Canadian banks. You need to give yourself every possible advantage in this field, you can start by atleast choosing an appropriate school.
having studied in the Rotman Commerce program I can tell you, unless you want to be an accountant this school isnt for you.
recruiting: no preparation from course-work, career center or student clubs, basically have to prepare for interviews on your own. on the plus side because of reputation you do have many networking opportunities but less than Queens/Ivey or even Laurier for that matter. 9/10 you will see a lot of uoft grads at first-round interviews and almost none at final round assessments.
coursework: gpa distribution hovers around high 60's/low 70's whereas Ivey is high 70's=you look worse off compared to most b-school grads
colleagues: large proportion of international students whose first language isn't english = exceedingly brilliant at financial math courses and cooking butter chicken, terrible social/networking skills. poor practice questions and indigestion don't make for good interview prep before recruiting.
on the whole avoid at all costs. Cant say a lot about MBA program but it is plagued by the last issue.
It's true, I did get rejected by McMaster haha. It was probably a documents mix-up or something though, I did have above a 90% average with very strong ECs.
OP, you're making the right decision by choosing Queen's. Queen's OCR for Toronto And NY is unrivaled in Canada, with the exception of maybe Ivey. Yes, schools like UofT and McMaster can also place you into finance, but you want to give yourself the best chance possible. And if you have any intention of working for an international BB or in NY/London, then the odds favour Queen's/Ivey even more.
This is coming from someone who has gone through the OCR game for both summer and FT positions, and has seen who ends up at the superdays.
Oops, I just realized this is an old thread someone just revived...oh well.
What about Schulich?
Just a thought on another school that has yet to be mentioned: UBC Sauder School of Business.
Many of the above comments are largely based on average placements for schools such as Ivey and Queens. Indeed, I believe it is true that these schools get better placements on average than other Canadian business schools.
However, if you think you have what it takes to be the top of the school (which you WSO-ers love to do!), you may want to consider UBC.
Finance: the Portfolio Management Fund (PMF) program is an extremely recognized and regarded program within finance (in Canada and the US). It takes on average 6 or 7 of the top students going into FInance, gets them to manage a $3M fund, and guarantees 2 internships (between 2nd and 3rd year and 3rd and 4th year) - some get to do GS, JPM because the program's alumni base is that strong.
Management Consulting: the Strategy Consulting Mentorship Program (SCMP) at Sauder is an elite consulting program. If you pass through the rigorous program and are deemed worthy, you get guaranteed 1st round interviews at MBB, Monitor, Accenture, etc.
So if you are considering finance or consulting and think you can be the best (to get into these programs and do them successfully), UBC Sauder should not be overlooked.
pitchbook makes a good point. Don't know much about the SCMP, but I heard the PMF is extremely difficult to get into.
As for Schulich, I would say it's probably on par with McGill, slightly ahead of UofT and slightly behind Ivey/Queen's.
That's really interesting pitchbook. My family member, who am I kidding, my dad teaches at Sauder and I'd be very interested in the validity of their program because I rarely hear about UBC on WSO but from what I've seen it's quite impressive.
In the US, Mcgill > Ivey > Queens > U of T > Schulich > Sauder >>>>>>>>>>> mccmaster.
Haha, the same is true in Canada, I was just trying to be nice. Except NOWHERE in the world is McGill better than Ivey
Well, McGill has a very good (probably the best in Canada) general reputation as a university, though not a particularly strong business school. Nevertheless, its "name brand" allows it to attract the best international students. As a result, many American students seeking a cheaper alternative to expensive US schools go to McGill. These students in turn find it easier to attain employment in the US because they have no visa issues. A number of banks refuse to sponsor Canadian students for H-1B visas. This might explain why McGill could be better known than Ivey/Queen's on Wall Street. Though for a Canadian student looking to go into finance (whether on Bay Street or Wall Street), I would still recommend Ivey and Queen's over McGill.
go to Queens for sure
This is coming from a UofT grad, its pretty darn hard to break into IB. We get a decent amount of recruitment from the Canadian banks, but none of the major US BB actively recruit from UofT. Most kids here are going into accounting, which doesn't matter in terms of which school you come from (OufT, Queens, York, Western).
Out of the class of 2010, I know a few who got into Canadian IB. I also know couple going back to Asia to work for BB, and another in MS's Toronto office, but these are extremely bright people and i believe they mostly networked on their own.
Btw I forgot to mention UofT's brutal mark deflation system, class averages are suppose to be in the high 60s and low70s range, thats a 2.7~3.0
Yes, the course average for all of my courses was a C+ (which is a 2.3 here)
I haven't read all the replies but U of T is a good school. We get lots of training for actual job work...it's really pain to do all that work but i guess it will help me out in the future. We also get decent amount of recruiting from Canadian banks as well as international American banks, and if you search up U of Toronto alums, you will see that our school has people working in many diverse fields.
And you know what? I'd rather be at U of T rotman commerce than McMaster / Dalhousie
I'll keep this short.
pick any major or school you like, you've 2 options
Get a badass GPA. someone tell u it doesnt matter, tell em to fuck off. Grades is the currency of college and only those who dont have it say it doesnt matter. Fuck em.
2 : re-read option 1
WORD.
In that case, I could attend a horrible school notorious of grade inflation, end up with a 4.0 in say a double major in finance and economics, and you'll hire me on the spot?
hopefulIBguy: in that case, when you're sitting across interviewer, you can make a claim that you were an all-star at tier-3 college. You have a decent shot this way.
Think of it this way: You're GM of Raptors and you want a SF : you've 2 options
Kentucky - duke - UNC - Kansas guy, who got, i dont know, say 11 ppg, 3rpg, 2apg, shot 38 % FG
Similar league but lesser known college : 27ppg, 8rpg, 4apg
Better to be a Joe Johnson on atlanta hawks than Steve Nash's # 2 in PHX.
I know you already made up your mind but consider this:
1) Queen's commerce is the most difficult business program to gain admission into in Canada
2) This asian girl at Brock University dropped out in 2nd year because the accounting program was too hard for her. She was then accepted immediately into Rotman Commerce and all her previous credits were transferred.
How's that for prestige and difficulty? Bet you've never heard of Brock University, have you.
Canadian universities are slack? My god what a joke...Like where do you kids get your research from these days?
Queen's/Ivey/McGill most Canadian universities are some of the hardest in the world. Look at LSe for any UK school Canadians always get a grade boost vs the US top schools. Same story as it comes to top 10 US MBAs. My friend got a 4.0 from my school and he never read the WSJ, wtf reading the WSJ have to do with getting a 4.0? That said the guy is crazy hard working and landed at a very very top boutique.
Good luck with UofT, it is not a bad school. But sorry when it comes to finance in Canada its Queen's/Ivey and the rest. That said there is people from almost every school in Canada on the street. UofT/UBC/McGill/Schulich/WLU/Concorida among others.
Btw, UofT kids always whine about grade inflation, yet the people who I know who went there and got a 3.7+ do not bitch that much, its all the dunce kids who goto UofT and get their asses handed to them.
I agree. I hate that a lot people enter commerce thinking its going to be a walk in the park, most of those guys end up with GPA's below 3.3 ironically.
Few months late, but yes Queen's would be a better choice.
I know a few people on Bay Street, and one of them works at Desjardins in a senior position. The Desjardins employee does believe U of T is "better" but that's for several reasons.
1 - U of T is prestigious and a bit older.
2 - As he has not been in school for a very long time, he isn't as well versed in university programs.
3 - It is possible that Desjardins hires more U of T students creating bias
4 - That is just his opinion
5 - There could be other extraneous factors in play
In conclusion, everybody has their own opinions towards who'd they prefer recruiting.
My advice is to get into a program with good substance in the degree and not because somebody else just told you it's great, but because you believe/know it is. If you know your program is good than you can give a better story in interviews as well. Perhaps the most important thing during your undergrad is to gain good internships, and both universities will provide that opportunity for you.
One word for you buddy if you want to get anywhere in life.... IVEY!
UofT is most prestigious and better as a whole, dont know much about its Commerce program... But its economics department is better.
Rotman is my top choice and I chose it over McGill, Queens, Schulich, and Ivey. Being in Toronto opens so many opportunities for internships and recruitment. Also, attending their BCom program gives you a better chance to get into their MBA program, which is undeniably the best in the county. U of T is not only one of the best schools in the country, it is one of the best in the world. Though the program is vigorous, it is worth it for it's strong international reputation. Also, if you want to get into finance, specifically investment management, this is the place to be, as you will get hands on experience in Toronto's stock market. Anyways, my decision was influenced by many factors and I have had no doubts since making it. Good luck in all of your decisions! :)
Just Wondering- Rotman Commerce (Originally Posted: 11/02/2010)
Hi, I have received very mixed signals regarding the ib recruitment at UofT Commerce (Rotman Commerce). Some say that it is great, while others seem to argue otherwise. So for those who are situated across the major financial districts around the world- Is Rotman Commerce indeed a strong school for ib, and do banks come and recruit? (even if it is for Bay St)
Thanks!
Use the search tool, it's fairly useful. I created a similar thread when I was in your exact position last year :P
Here's the thread, http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/university-of-toronto-rotman-comm…
Check your PM as well - I wanted to give some more information but the spam filter kept going off.
UoT dominates Bay Street. But on Wall Street, I see more MBAs from McGill than Rotman. But this probably has more to do with the quality of the graduates rather than the quality of the program.
I would hardly say that UofT dominates Bay Street. From what I hear, Ivey and Queens take top spot.
Agreed. IB recruiting from Rotman is only strong for MBAs.
Rotman is good for its masters programs, but not its undergraduate.
Rotman Commerce is decent for accounting but Waterloo (AFM-PA) is easily much better.
Rotman is my top choice and I chose it over McGill, Queens, Schulich, and Ivey. Being in Toronto opens so many opportunities for internships and recruitment. Also, attending their BCom program gives you a better chance to get into their MBA program, which is undeniably the best in the county. U of T is not only one of the best schools in the country, it is one of the best in the world. Though the program is vigorous, it is worth it for it's strong international reputation. Also, if you want to get into finance, specifically investment management, this is the place to be, as you will get hands on experience in Toronto's stock market. Anyways, my decision was influenced by many factors and I have had no doubts since making it. Good luck in all of your decisions! :)
Rotman Commerce (Originally Posted: 12/03/2010)
Okay, I have been reading through the forums for quite some time and am a little confused. It seems as though a lot of people seem to look down upon the Roman Commerce program and was just wondering- is it really that bad? Does Rotman actually send a fair amount of students into IB and S&T, and are they actually able to get interviews for that matter? Based on what a lot of people seem to be saying, someone with a 3.8 at Rotman's wouldnt be able to get an interview over someone with like a 3.6 or 3.7 at Ivey; is this true?
I also ask that we try to keep the Ivey/Queens discussion a little bit down as I already know a lot about these schools and their reputation.
Rotman isn't "horrible", but if you're serious about IB, I would avoid it. Yes, they may send a few kids into IB/S&T each year (not many though), but Rotman is very heavily accounting focused, have fewer career management resources and don't have access to the same opportunities as other schools.
Rotman and Ivey don't compete on a GPA basis for interviews, as each school will have its own respective OCR/first-round interviews (where GPA matters). But what you'll see is that when it comes to getting final rounds and actually landing offers, Ivey/Queens kids tend to win out (where GPA is negligible, and fit/personality is key).
ull need a 3.8 at rotman commerce to get interviews
yo oz, whered you get that from
Not true.
I went to Rotman Commerce (before it was rebranded) and know guys with 3.0s who landed consulting gigs.
Rotman Commerce has an okay rep with the Big 5 banks- there are a couple of people from my program that got in. It is a factory for the Big 4 though so it's not wrong to say the program is very accounting focussed.
It does have a really good finance curriculum though and if you do well there, combine that with good extra currics and you're not a weirdo, there's no reason why you won't get interviews.
If you're really set on BB IB, aim for Ivey or Queen's.
On-campus recruitment is virtually non-existent, and the alumni network is very weak so youre gna have to be proactive and do a lotta research on your own if you wanna get into ib or any finance jobs. Accounting onthe other hand is probably the best in the nation.
Is Laurier significantly better compared to Rotman's?
for s&t : do math/biz @ waterloo
for i banking : Number 1 is Ivey. Number 2 is Ivey. Number 3 is York
I will avoid rotman at all cost. Not a bad school at all. But for that price and hard work, I want a job right after graduation.
Ivey puts u in a better position than rotman anyday. keep in mind, ivey has the best alumni network.
Frankly, if u wana challenge urself, go to math/biz program of waterloo. guarantee u smartest fuckin kids (Euclid math champs who beat UC Bark, MIT , Caltech, IIT india etc.) ANd they have a badass co-op program that assures u 5 internships (paid) if u can score 80 % in every semester.
kids from ivey/rotman/york are too much style, too little substance. Waterloo = 95 % substance.
Use the search tool, there's like 2 threads with the exact title haha.
Rotman commerce..Which major?? (Originally Posted: 04/15/2011)
Rotman Commerce at the University of Toronto is jointly offered by the Faculty of Arts & Science and the Joseph L. Rotman School of Management. Consequently, Rotman Commerce students benefit from all the courses and programs that Arts & Science has to offer, in addition to the expertise of the faculty from the Rotman School of Management.
Specialist and Major Programs (Subject Posts) Rotman Commerce Students may choose to complete one of the following options:
a. Specialist in Accounting (B.Com) b. Specialist in Management (B. Com) c. Specialist in Finance and Economics (B.Com)
a. Specialist in Accounting (B.Com) This program is intended for students wishing to become Chartered Accountants. Completion of the Specialist in Accounting automatically satisfies the courses required by the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Ontario. The Specialist in Accounting consists of 15 credits out of the 20 credit B. Com degree.
b. Specialist in Management (B.Com) This program is intended for students who wish to pursue either a broad business program, or who are interested in concentrating in Marketing, Organizational Behaviour, Strategy, or Operations Management. The program consists of 12 credits out of the 20 credit B.Com degree.
c. Specialist in Finance and Economics (B.Com) This program is intended for students who wish to pursue graduate studies, or a career in finance. The program consists of 14 credits out of the 20 credit B.Com degree.
SO MY QUESTION IS WHICH ONE IS MOST FAMOUS? WHICH PROGRAM IS THE WORST IN UofT/ROTMAN??
Why do you want to know which one is the most famous? Start off by asking yourself what you are interested in and what you want to do in your career. My guess is that you want to go into finance, so then I would go to option c. Depending on what you want to do in finance, you might consider switching to Queens or Ivey for better finance placements. Best of luck.
Right now Im interested in finance as well as consulting... So its either finance or management...right??
I need to know which program is best since I don't want a finance degree w/o a job in finance (IB) or the other way around
Rotman places horribly in Finance.
I know. LOL thats y im posting this shit
Rotman Commerce courses are held in Woodsworth Residences basement. I wouldn't attend that shithole even if they paid me- not to mention their horrible placements. 1 GS Toronto hired for diversity (female, wears towel on her head.. go figure.. got 0 superdays at other banks)
your profies says you went to HYP, so you wouldnt have to attend, and maybe if you had a towel on your head you could get an job in banking, judging by the amount of monkey shit thrown at you I would take any feedback you would have about a school with a grain of salt.
In terms of IB and Consulting, I agree. Better to go with Queens or Ivey. Rotman Commerce only has a handful of kids make it into IB each year. But your facts are off, the GS hire had multiple offers with Canadian banks and BBs. At any rate, doesn't say much for the program.
Why UofT Rotman Commerce has such low rep??? (Originally Posted: 04/16/2012)
Is it because too many new immigrants apply there?
bad troll is bad
My friend currently goes there - and yes, she's Asian - not fobby Asian though.
The combination of these two overtime has led to Rotman having fewer and fewer alumni in top places and hence placements declining further and further.
P.S: your post seems a bit trollish. Just saying.
Well my brother went to UofT (Mech Engineering). The thing is that Bcom guys compete against engineers. If you are hiring someone from UofT, why would you hire a BCom when you can hire an engineer. But overall, UofT is the best uni in Canada.
um, yeah ... about that lol. Check the rankings mate. Before last year, it was always McGill as number one. Starting last year, U of T started catching up, and now we are roughly tied in the rankings. We are very different universities with different priorities. McGill is a smaller, more cornell-esque type of an environment, while U of T is pretty much a giant research factory
I admit though, U of T Business is def. better than McGill business. That being said, when I was doing interviews in NYC and Chicago, the only Canadian school that Americans seem to know is McGill.
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