King Obama

All politics aside, how can liberals or Obama supporters not fully condemn this man? Besides the fact that he decides to just act unilaterally when he can't get his way, how is basically allowing 5 million more people to stay and engage in this country a good thing for the core, Democrat base?

Forget this idea of securing the border. We aren't building a North Korean style wall. But you can punish employers. You can make it impossible for someone who is illegal to function in this country. You can have no sanctuary cities. You can deport expeditiously. Etc. Instead we have a poorly functioning immigration system and one that has so many road blocks it becomes nearly unenforceable.

Since this forum is full of international students, I ask you all how you feel? How do you feel knowing you came here to study and have to jump through endless hurdles to get Visa sponsorship for a job. If only you lived next to the US you could simply come here illegally and get to stay.

And what is this crap about how Mexico is soooo horrible these people needed to come here to survive. I'd buy that from someone from Haiti. Someone from Somalia. A Liberian. But Mexico has oil, tourism, manufacturing, agriculture, history, etc. Carlos Slim is Mexican. The country is a vacation spot for Americans. How many people you know vacationing in the aforementioned placed?

The people I feel the worst for are the low income, low skilled AMERICANS who want better wages. We just Grapes of Wrathed these people. Dumped another 5 million people who speak English as a second language, who have little to no skills or education. We just added them to the social safety net that isn't funded as it should be. We just added them to the labor force when all stats show how hard it is for someone with a high school degree or less to get a job in this country, let alone a good paying one.

So I ask, how can anyone support this guy. And to say Republicans are obstructionist is to forget that people elected Republicans and people don't like Obama. Citizens have spoken. Yet Obama acts alone.

Let the count down begin. When this guy is in the history book this country will be much better. Bring on Hillary for godsake. At least she is pragmatic.

Discuss.

 

I mean I get it. USA is comparatively better than Mexico and they want here. But people fail to remember that when we had the European immigration waves people came to Ellis Island 1st, then to NYC or NJ. They were inspected and processwed. And every now and then we issues quotas. Furthermore, that was way back then. When we had jobs for manufacturing. I just think it is sad that this is a big vote handout. Democrats basically fuck over African Americans who have been one of their most loyal voting blocks.

I am not a Liberal, but I at least understand when Liberal Americans vote and try and do things to help Americans. But this was basically a hand out to non-citizens.

 

Politicians are elected to serve their statesmen. A Somalian politician should zero regards to the welfare of let's say..... Egyptians in policy making. Similar logic to the US.

Pennies from JcPenny
 
job.resume:

Non-citizens are people too

Exactly. I agree. And if Mexico was Rwanda or something I could see a humanitarian argument. But Mexico isn't that bad. And everyone always says how horrible it must be to deport someone whose lived here for years. Well I guess they don't know any international students who leave after not being able to find word. See, Indian and Chinese people don't have LA Raza to make this into a bullshit issue.

Another thing that is funny is that crap about if you are born in the US you become a citizen. That law was put in place post civil war to remove any doubt that African American slaves were citizens. And now a law that was supposed to help freed black slaves is basically used by illegal immigrants to get a foothold in the US.

It just shocks me to think about the money we spend on these newly annexed people and how we could be giving better opportunity to actual Americans. And this garbage that immigrants do jobs Americans don't want to do. Yeah. They do shit that Americans won't do for 3 bucks an hour. Increase wages and you'll find Americans who will do it.

 
Best Response
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/company/trilantic-north-america>TNA</a></span>:
immigrants do jobs Americans don't want to do. Yeah. They do shit that Americans won't do for 3 bucks an hour. Increase wages and you'll find Americans who will do it.
That's kind of the catch 22 that America has painted itself into a corner with. Without support for unions or whatever mechanism would raise wages, it's a continued race to the bottom with no end in sight. Business has taken advantage of this for quite some time and everyone was fine with it. Now suddenly everyone acts surprised that tens of millions of people don't necessarily want to hide in the shadows anymore, or be tossed out. This, like ACA is a realpolitik move: despite the partisan bickering, it's rooted in basic common sense and fuses several partisan objectives into a set of actionable items. This week's GOP talking points try really hard to make it out like Obama is the first to pull rank on Congress, but plenty of presidents have signed far more: and let's be real, the GOP is unreasonable and doesn't negotiate or compromise on anything, so I'm not sure what they expected.

While I do sympathize with the frustration of those posting here who came here legally, stop and think about the terms: they jumped through hoops in order to join the white collar labor force. The people they're comparing themselves to live in relative poverty here compared to that and likely will not rise above it for generations, if ever. And for the ones who did everything right and still ended up going back....do not let your own experience speak as truth to negate the many Latinos who have been and will be deported. It's not quite so one dimensional, it's an apples to oranges comparison. Reacting to one's own situation and projecting it into macro terms is understandable and we all do it (I'm no exception) but that doesn't make it true.

The way I see it, this isn't strictly a Democrat initiative, this is a broken system issue with everyone at the top trying to pass the buck around. This should have been dealt with decades ago, but the problem grew and festered: there is no 'clean and easy' way to fix this. One party just took a position and decided that railing about the status quo was no longer sufficient. The idea of a one time deal, followed by tougher rules and tighter border controls has been put forward by a bunch of presidents from both parties, this guy is just the first to do it.

I get that there are a lot of young conservatives on this site, even though that phrase itself is a strange oxymoron (young people are by default less beholden to convention). Thing is, as a former republican who jumped over to the Democrats for a while (and am now independent), from my perspective this is a good governance issue. Stop and think: the collateral damage of deporting so many people would cause far more damage than it fixed. I'm not a huge fan of this process, but realistically, that's like saying I'm not a fan of corrective surgery.....it kind of beats the alternative.

Get busy living
 

I live in Australia but studied in the US (2+ years during UG) and may want to work there eventually. From my perspective, no way the illegal immigrants should be given special treatment - deport a lot of them, if not quite all of them. That being said, this comes from a strong belief in the principle rather than the outcome/me thinking it's unfair on me or others that they move there illegally - because I'd never even consider doing the same, given the lack of security/opportunity being an illegal immigrant would entail. Would much rather build my career elsewhere and wait my turn, so to speak.

 

As an educated, hard working, former international student in the US, I am appalled by how Obama handles this. I studied in the US for 5 years (undergrad + grad school) and worked for 4 years before being laid off during the crises and I had to return home.

I am now fighting my way back to the US, using legal ways. So to find out that Obama is giving 5 million illegal, uneducated and low skilled immigrants a free ticket to the US really disgusts me. I paid out-of-state tuition for 5 years, I paid my taxes for 4 years, I never broke the law and I was still shown the door when the US went through some hard times.

I still have my mind set to come back to the US, after all it is the best country I have lived in (lived/worked in 5 different developed countries). But the day I get my citizenship, I am not voting for the democrats.

 

What you're describing is a good basis for criticizing the immigration policies that threw you out on your ass when you were clearly capable of contributing further to this country.

However the whole "I got shafted, so these guys should get shafted too" argument really doesn't work. The system is broken both for you and them.

 

I don't disagree with most of what you are going for here but to say "what is so bad about Mexico?" is kind of ridiculous. The Country is a tourist spot for Americans? You think having a few beaches and cheap amenities makes somewhere a decent place to live for the majority? I know we have our share of problems but these people are for the most part drastically improving their circumstances by coming here -- that's pretty much undeniable.

This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..
 
Cruncharoo:

I don't disagree with most of what you are going for here but to say "what is so bad about Mexico?" is kind of ridiculous. The Country is a tourist spot for Americans? You think having a few beaches and cheap amenities makes somewhere a decent place to live for the majority? I know we have our share of problems but these people are for the most part drastically improving their circumstances by coming here -- that's pretty much undeniable.

I'm saying they have a diversified economy. And Mexico city gets a lot of tourism as well as the beaches. Do I think Mexico is great? Not compared to the US. But it is far and away better than a lot of countries in both central and South America.

IMO, if you're going to make a human rights case for allowing unchecked immigration then Mexican can stand at the back of the line. When Haiti is empty then we can talk about the plight of the Mexican people.

Let me reiterate, as an educated native this doesn't impact me one bit. I just feel bad for Americans that are struggling. I'll happily pay more when I go out to eat or make a salad at home if I know Americans are making 10_15 an hour to do those jobs. This is basically in sourcing labor for companies that can't physically relocate. Except now we've begun the process of adding more people to an already strained social safety net.

 

The whole point of this thread is to bash the head of a political party not discuss any issue lol.

If the point was to discuss I would imagine all the key points would have been mentioned in the OP (people staying are parents of legal residents, criminals are still being deported, etc).

Sorry for the interruption folks, let the republican pep rally continue.

 
Going Concern:

The whole point of this thread is to bash the head of a political party not discuss any issue lol.

If the point was to discuss I would imagine all the key points would have been mentioned in the OP (people staying are parents of legal residents, criminals are still being deported, etc).

Sorry for the interruption folks, let the republican pep rally continue.

Wow, thanks for the non post. Considering Obama made this move on his own he should take the heat. And if you read though my comments you'd see a discussion on focusing our efforts on actual Americans.

 

How does this "amnesty" affect people that are already americans? And don't give me the BS of taking american jobs, the jobs of the majority of these immigrants are field workers that get a few bucks a day and are jobs that even the lowest skilled americans will not take.Obama has already deported more people than any other President by a large number. This decisions keeps from having to deport parents of kids that were born here to avoid them from having to to things like foster care. And he has stated he wanted overall immigration reform but the house wont pass it. So what is he expected to do in this situation. I am not an Obama fan at all but I am actually glad he stood up took a leadership position on something.

So how does this order change your or any average american daily life). The Obama hate sometimes is just unreal unfounded.

"When you expect things to happen - strangely enough - they do happen." - JP Morgan
 

Man, I can't imagine how a labor force working below the minimum wage could possible hurt Americans looking got work. Golly gee. Imagine if they weren't around. I'm sure we would all just starve. Or maybe we would automate (overtime at John Deere) or pay Americans a wage to get them to work.

How about people who are largely poor being added to an already over stretched social safety net. If you are poor and we allot a fixed amount for food stamps and an additional 5MM people come in that means you get less.

And the simple fact that people come here illegally, do no go though the same process everyone else does and then stay because a voting block groups together focused on race based politics.

This isn't Obama hate because Bush tried this shit and got hell for it.

 

so, what, you're planning on going out and finding millions of illegal immigrants? How do you plan on doing that without risking invading anyone's civil liberties? You can't go around asking for people's papers, so you'd basically have to wait for them to be exposed. Additionally, the point that I think eigenvector was making is that they're already here, taking these low wage jobs, so providing them with a pathway to legal status actually has a very low marginal cost to the economy while providing marginal benefits to employers that may otherwise want to hire them. Additionally, if they are legal, then they would have to adhere to the minimum wage, which benefits everyone.

"There's nothing you can do if you're too scared to try." - Nickel Creek
 
sfgfan10:

so, what, you're planning on going out and finding millions of illegal immigrants? How do you plan on doing that without risking invading anyone's civil liberties? You can't go around asking for people's papers, so you'd basically have to wait for them to be exposed. Additionally, the point that I *think* eigenvector was making is that they're already here, taking these low wage jobs, so providing them with a pathway to legal status actually has a very low marginal cost to the economy while providing marginal benefits to employers that may otherwise want to hire them. Additionally, if they are legal, then they would have to adhere to the minimum wage, which benefits everyone.

Real simple dude. You don't issue ids or licenses to non US citizens. You stop a vehicle and check ids. You raid farms, home Depot, restaurants and check Ids. Cops can ask for it whenever. We already know a ton of them.

Deportations are real easy. Go to the UK and try and pull some shit. You'll be booted out so fast your head will spin.

And no more of this anchor baby shit. If an illegal has a kid here it retains the mothers citizenship. Don't break up the family, send them all home.

 
TNA:

Since this forum is full of international students, I ask you all how you feel? How do you feel knowing you came here to study and have to jump through endless hurdles to get Visa sponsorship for a job. If only you lived next to the US you could simply come here illegally and get to stay.

Don't be ridiculous. They're not taking jobs from anyone with any sort of an education. The only thing they're doing in an office is cleaning them.

What do you make of this article? There are jobs to be had, but we Americans wont do them: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/why-americans-wont-do-dirty-jobs-1…

Also, why the sudden moral outrage at a president/politician acting unilaterally? W started a trillion dollar war without asking anyone. All politicians are assholes and do this all the time.

@"heister" calling black people "blackies" is racist, pure and simple.

 

Have you looked at the unemployment report? People without an education are those who need jobs. I'm sure inner city kids would wash dishes if we didn't take advantage of illegal immigrants and under pay the. I'm sure rural unemployed would pick crops for fair wages and humane work environments.

Bush got congressional approval. He didn't act unilaterally.

 
TNA:

I'm sure inner city kids would wash dishes if we didn't take advantage of illegal immigrants and under pay the. I'm sure rural unemployed would pick crops for fair wages and humane work environments.

So if Obama kicked them all out, farmers/restaurants/wherever would magically start paying a living wage with humane working conditions? You're asking for wholesale systematic changes that just will not happen.

Why don't the American unemployed go get a job at McD's or Wal-mart, or wherever?

 
the_stig:
TNA:

I'm sure inner city kids would wash dishes if we didn't take advantage of illegal immigrants and under pay the. I'm sure rural unemployed would pick crops for fair wages and humane work environments.

So if Obama kicked them all out, farmers/restaurants/wherever would magically start paying a living wage with humane working conditions? You're asking for wholesale systematic changes that just will not happen.

Why don't the American unemployed go get a job at McD's or Wal-mart, or wherever?

Many do. Just take a look at the shift in age at these places. Minimum wage used to be largely made up of young kids flipping burgers. Now you see retires, middle aged people.

If you kicked them out you'd see exactly that. All farmers would pay more and eventually automate. Dish washers would pay more.

Just look at the way mart argument how they pay so little but push costs off into the public space. What are employers doing with illegals. Paying someone nothing to do a job whole forcing the public welfare system to bridge the gap.

Also, what about all the internal students who come here to learn a ND leave because of Visa issue. Let's talk about fundamental fairness.

I'm sorry, but but this is wrong. It was wrong when Bush recommend it. It was wrong when Regean did it and it will be wrong when it happens again.

It is also foolish. We aren't getting more unskilled jobs. Not sure why we want to add more unskilled workers to the roster. I'll be a good citizen and pay more for my produce and meals if it means Americans have a shot at working and making a decent wage.

 

Jobs Americans don't want to do. What a joke. Jobs Americans don't want to do for pay below minimum wage and worked like a slave.

I'm sure slave owners said the same thing about picking cotton.

 

I know you don't support minimum wage so why does it matter that employees are paying below minimum wage for jobs...

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee WSO is not your personal search function.
 
bfin:

I know you don't support minimum wage so why does it matter that employees are paying below minimum wage for jobs...

Who says I don't support a minimum wage? And if I didn't, illegal immigration would unfairly lower the prevailing wage. Either way my stance wouldn't change.

I feel bad for the poor, struggling parents sending their kids to strapped school systems that now have to expend resources they don't have to educate people who simply decided it was their right to ignore our laws and come here.

 

Agreed on all accounts. If you entered the country illegally and decided to have kids while making $500 / month - shame on you. Just having kids in the US shouldn't translate to U.S. citizenship. Read what he's going to propose, its a lot more than just parents who had kids here.

And to the people above saying they won't take low income Americans' jobs, that's complete bullshit. They will take American jobs, but they will take a lot of the jobs low income citizens won't do because the low earners would rather live off social security than do a low wage job. Whether you want to admit or not, at least Mexicans have a much stronger work ethic than other low income demographics in the U.S.

 
CorpFinanceGuy:

They will take American jobs, but they will take a lot of the jobs low income citizens won't do because the low earners would rather live off social security than do a low wage job. Whether you want to admit or not, at least Mexicans have a much stronger work ethic than other low income demographics in the U.S.

Why isn't there outrage directed at Americans who do this? Isn't the American dream all about working hard and making something out of yourself?
 

I realize this is rhetorical most likely, this is the #1 thing that outrages me, entitlement programs. I realize that these people paid into SSA and the other stuff and from a humane perspective you have to have people not out on the streets and dying, but I think they've got the math wrong. when people would rather get on social programs and not back into the workforce (Assuming they're not old or handicapped), something's wrong. makes me sick. but hey, I can't change it, so I work hard and give the rest of the world the finger, life's too short to worry about this kind of crap.

 
the_stig:
CorpFinanceGuy:

They will take American jobs, but they will take a lot of the jobs low income citizens won't do because the low earners would rather live off social security than do a low wage job. Whether you want to admit or not, at least Mexicans have a much stronger work ethic than other low income demographics in the U.S.

Why isn't there outrage directed at Americans who do this? Isn't the American dream all about working hard and making something out of yourself?

American did and do this. Citizens. You can work hard in Mexico also.

We have a duty to current citizens to provide the best opportunities for those who want to succeed to do so. It's a failure to give opportunity to others when they should go to Americans first. If we want to help Mexico we can legalize drugs, give money directly or pressure the government for social and political change. It doesn't mean we should wholesale allow people to come into this country without following an established process.

Poor Indian and Chinese people. If only they had been born closer to the US they would forget this Visa crap and just walk on in.

 
the_stig:
CorpFinanceGuy:

They will take American jobs, but they will take a lot of the jobs low income citizens won't do because the low earners would rather live off social security than do a low wage job. Whether you want to admit or not, at least Mexicans have a much stronger work ethic than other low income demographics in the U.S.

Why isn't there outrage directed at Americans who do this? Isn't the American dream all about working hard and making something out of yourself?

Oh, there is outrage. But it's such a complex structural issue between government & capitalism that there's no point to even discussing it. We're so far down the socialistic path with 50% of Americans on some sort of assistance, there's no way to reverse course. So many Americans would rather take the $ than actually work to make similar $. Can't really blame them.

I'm against illegal immigration and giving any amnesties to those who didn't go the formal route, but I could never talk shit about Mexicans because they bust their fucking tails. I wish I could say the same thing about other low education/earning citizens in our country.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/resources/skills/finance/going-concern>Going Concern</a></span>:

I'd rather have a dedicated hard-working Mexican cruising down Park Avenue on a broken bicycle with my fresh hot take-out dinner rather than some pasty white American slob who thinks he's entitled to a lot because of the color of his skin

Pasty white guy? Yeah, that's the demographic that is poor and non college educated. This isn't entitlement as you can have a hard working Mexican who is also an American. This is about allowing people who are citizens of another country to come to the US and do a job for a lower wage than a citizen.

Americans citizens have no race as we are from all over.

 

He made good points in his proposal and Obama was correct about the reality of the situation. You're tired of established immigrants receiving benefits and not paying taxes, well here's an opportunity to do something rather than bitch about it. Statistically he's done well tackling the immigration problem, not that the facts matter. Nothing substantive has been done for decades, all the republicans want is something to throw their arms in the air about and talk about during elections, rather than governing. Obama is forcing the issue.

There is an immigration bill that can be passed or the republican party can come up with their own. Saying "Well Obama would just veto anything we come up with" isn't an excuse and let the Democrats deal with the fallout in the next election if he does that. Right now the Republican party stands for divisive and obstructive politics, "King Obama" being a perfect example.

The sickening part of these diatribes - apart from the 3rd grader temper tantrum - is had his last name been Roosevelt instead of Obama, his ideas would've been championed by his current detractors. Maybe in 2016 the Republicans will put forth a substantive candidate with a plan rather than a fool with a soundbite, he'll probably have my vote if they do.

 

Oh god, disagree with Obama and the "if his last name was diffefent" comes out. Sorry, but no dice. Deportations have been up, but so has immigration. Obama should be pushing to cripple any business that employs illegals. Have ICE agents shut down farms and roofing companies.

We have forfeiture laws when it comes to drugs. You see a construction outfit employing illegal labor you take the trucks and tools. Demand will dry up and people will leave.

 

Obama has been acting unilaterally since he got elected. He isn't interested in bridging the game. His approval rate is horrible. He helped the dems lose the mid term. People elected Republicans to vote against him.

Also historically, politics has been gridlock. Slow moving as it should be. What Obama did is a continuation of failed policy that goes back to Regean.

 

Once again, Republicans haven't allowed the Bill to be voted on, so he's forcing the issue. Bitch or act. Why haven't your Republicans put forth a Bill espousing all of those solutions you crave? They have the majority now, let Obama take the blame for being "obstructive" for once.

 
Tucked:

Once again, Republicans haven't allowed the Bill to be voted on, so he's forcing the issue. Bitch or act. Why haven't your Republicans put forth a Bill espousing all of those solutions you crave? They have the majority now, let Obama take the blame for being "obstructive" for once.

First off they aren't my anything. And they just became the majority.

And Republicans want to secure the border first. My personal interpretation is about eliminating demand. They might want more patrol. Either way the goal is to reduce the flow.

This Amnesty will just lead to more. Obama hasn't done anything fundamental to impact this issues. He just gave a chunk of people a free pass. Half measure no matter how you look at it.

 

'haven't read all the comments ... and this action by obama did take a little time for me to wrap my head around but I think I understand his rationale... which is different from saying that I support him on this.. The folks that benefit are illegal immigrants who have kids that are US citizens.. so, dont blame obama for that..the rules that allowed kids of illegal immigrants to become US citizens have been in place from before... even from Bush's time - everyone's little blue eyed boy who could do no wrong.. So if obama were to deport the parents and put the kids in foster homes it would be the same as growing a crop of criminals - because we all know how great kids under foster care turn out to be. Remember, these kids are US citizens so cannot be deported... So I think obama's action is intended to make sure that these kids do not grow up to be muggers & car-jackers that harass the rest of america. Under their parents' care they have a much better chance of growing up to become civilized and contributing members of society... and that affects everyone in america.. not just the 'minorities'.

An ideal solution? Maybe not ... but hey, if you are morally opposed to "illegal" immigration start by deporting the descendants of the early europeans that came here and butchered the natives for their land

 

Obamas "policies" decreased the flow? Seriously? Couldn't have anything to do with the shit economy we have had for the last 6 plus years? No that's crazy. It's not like Mexicans stopped pouring over the border when they found out there was no work here.

The problem with this is, it is nothing more than a political move. Obama could care less about how it will impact peoples lives, he could care less that he has suppressed wages even though he is out there banging the drum for 15 dollars per hour minimum wages, he could care less that he as effectively doubled if not tripped the black unemployment rate. I'm sure I will get the armchair racial scholars calling me a racist again but mexicans will take black jobs. Simply because for the most part they work harder, are more reliable, and cause less trouble. This is not going to end well for any parties involved except for people like me. I can now tell the people who work for me that their wages are going down because the market no longer supports their current wage. I now have 5 million more people to pick from to replace them for less money. The true winners in this are rich white people like me.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 
heister:

I'm sure I will get the armchair racial scholars calling me a racist again but mexicans will take black jobs. Simply because for the most part they work harder, are more reliable, and cause less trouble.

I am pretty sure thats true if you compared to every other race as well....

"When you expect things to happen - strangely enough - they do happen." - JP Morgan
 
heister:

Obamas "policies" decreased the flow? Seriously? Couldn't have anything to do with the shit economy we have had for the last 6 plus years? No that's crazy. It's not like Mexicans stopped pouring over the border when they found out there was no work here.

The problem with this is, it is nothing more than a political move. Obama could care less about how it will impact peoples lives, he could care less that he has suppressed wages even though he is out there banging the drum for 15 dollars per hour minimum wages, he could care less that he as effectively doubled if not tripped the black unemployment rate. I'm sure I will get the armchair racial scholars calling me a racist again but mexicans will take black jobs. Simply because for the most part they work harder, are more reliable, and cause less trouble. This is not going to end well for any parties involved except for people like me. I can now tell the people who work for me that their wages are going down because the market no longer supports their current wage. I now have 5 million more people to pick from to replace them for less money. The true winners in this are rich white people like me.

Yep. I wonder if Obama has taken advantage of uneducated voters more than any other president in history.. I mean the guy makes Clinton look like the Pope.
 

As much as I love this great country, my patience with our government is wearing thin. Obama and the liberals are transforming the U.S. into a welfare state that gives free passes to self-described "victims." At this rate, we do not deserve to be the #1 country in the world. It's time for China to teach us how to really run a country.

 
mbavsmfin:

As much as I love this great country, my patience with our government is wearing thin. Obama and the liberals are transforming the U.S. into a welfare state that gives free passes to self-described "victims." At this rate, we do not deserve to be the #1 country in the world. It's time for China to teach us how to really run a country.

you want to be a communist? ... or did you mean that you want to make phones for the chinese in sweatshops?

 

Pretty sure he was saying they don't put up with this whinny bullshit over there. The sad thing is this is really the beginning of the end of truely great capitalism. Technology will be the end of capitalistic societies. Eventually we will reach a level of automation that is so advanced that people will no longer be able to distribute the gains of production in a manner that allows some level of social harmony to exist. Technology forces the hand of socialistic societies.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne
 

Wow. Did you just take a time machine from the Mao era, bro? China is politically communist, but its economic system is more capitalist than ours. It is highly efficient since decisions are made by the Politburo rather than letting idiot voters vote for dumbass congressmen. Unlike the U.S., they do not need to pander to politically correct notions of justice and social engineering.

 

I do agree that Obama has decreased immigration over the past six years. His shit presidency has made this a paper recovery and even illegals would rather stay home.

Two more years boys. Obama has made me yearn for Hillary. And that is saying a lot.

 

I'm only commenting on the China bit. Re: Obama, his alleged sovereignty, illegal immigrants and the dependency of Seamless on illegal immigrants to deliver my after-hours meals - I don't have a dog in this fight.

Well, it does impact my wallet, but I don't get to vote in this country because I'm from a country the benefits from a democracy which has preferential voting (ie more democratic) and elections that are scheduled on weekends rather than Tuesday when people struggle to get out of work and, even if they do, find they've gone to the "wrong polling station" or have been removed from the voting roll (seriously, wtf? do you actually want people to vote? you call this a democracy?).

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

You guys should stick to finance. A lot of privileged, out of touch and mostly white dudes fear-mongering over what is actually a declining issue in illegal immigration. Hard to take a bunch of WASP guys who rode the rich daddy -> prep/private school -> top university -> IB train seriously on issues like poverty dynamics and their structural effects on immigration issues.

Also, most undocumented people are here working anyways. Seeing as you are finance people and have a certain belief in the effectiveness of markets, it's untenable to argue that using tax-payer resources to deport people who are providing societal goods is economically productive. These people were here anyways and were working, now they will pay taxes. Let your right-wing dissonance flounder under that - I'm sure if this was a Republican president there would be a cohort here claiming it was a great move because now we're collecting tax revenue.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I support this move or if there wasn't a better method of immigration reform. But guys, seriously, take the conservative tribune/Fox News propaganda glasses off. It's really inhibiting your ability for intelligent discourse.

 

Gotta love the "rich white dude" card. I tune out the second I hear race baiting drivel like that. And sorry, wanting immigrants to all follow the rules is called basic law and Democracy. Nothing right or left wing about it.

Made me laugh though.

 

That's the liberal's main calling card: accuse those who disagree with them of being rich white racists who want to bring back slavery and oppress minorities!

Not that it matters, but my parents are working-class immigrants who came here LEGALLY and busted their ass off.

 
mbavsmfin:

That's the liberal's main calling card: accuse those who disagree with them of being rich white racists who want to bring back slavery and oppress minorities!

Not that it matters, but my parents are working-class immigrants who came here LEGALLY and busted their ass off.

Totally agree. Pretty funny with the race card being brought up when my outrage is how those 5MM non citizens are doing jobs that could be done by out of work Americas. Maybe the wages would have to go up to do it, but so be it.

This whole thing is so insulting because Obama sided with non Americans over current citizens. Absolute horrible President.

 

This thread is clearly a magnet for monkey shit, but I'll play. Let's assume you agree with the current president and his policies - what do you think of his tactics, considering he taught Constitutional Law??

There's some wing nut anti-Obama stuff out there, I'll grant you. But you can be pretty tame or politically moderate and recognize that he's abused the constitution. As did his predecessor.

Why don't we all just admit that if we agree with a given president, we want them to do whatever the hell it takes to push their agenda?

 

Problem is, we've had a gradually more imperial presidency for a long time now, going back to Andrew Jackson's response to Worcester v. Georgia. "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" is an apocryphal quote of Jackson, but nonetheless an apt summary lol.

 

It's hilarious the Republican shill comments when Bush tried this and the Republicans roasted his ass. Plain fact is there would be zero damage to removing these people because you can simply make it impossible for the to exist in this country without citizenship.

And no, it's not anti Mexican. It's pro American. Sorry, go though the same process everyone else does. You have a kid here? Cool. Take them with you. Just like people do when they go back to China, India, Europe or whatever.

 

I'm not 'liberal' or 'conservative'. I just recognize political tropes and who typically exercises them. My claim wasn't racist, it's contextual. I sincerely doubt very many affluent white folks can legitimately relate to poor minorities, and empathize their with their mentalities, struggles, and decision making under those conditions. At the end of the day very little of our lives are outcomes of our doing, and most people make decisions based on the conditions they're subjected to. I'm also a white male working in finance.

To be clear, we're not arguing whether or not laws should be followed, we are discussing whether or not certain laws are fair and whether or not their externalities aren't creating a perverse incentive structure for poor Mexican immigrants.

 
IntrospectiveBanker:

I'm not 'liberal' or 'conservative'. I just recognize political tropes and who typically exercises them. My claim wasn't racist, it's contextual. I sincerely doubt very many affluent white folks can legitimately relate to poor minorities, and empathize their with their mentalities, struggles, and decision making under those conditions. At the end of the day very little of our lives are outcomes of our doing, and most people make decisions based on the conditions they're subjected to. I'm also a white male working in finance.

To be clear, we're not arguing whether or not laws should be followed, we are discussing whether or not certain laws are fair and whether or not their externalities aren't creating a perverse incentive structure for poor Mexican immigrants.

Eloquent way of saying nothing at all.

1) Not all white people are a) rich of b) privileged

2) You don't need to be poor to empathize with their situation and realize that at the very least providing an opportunity to work for a decent wage is a better option than nothing at all

3) The employment report is clear. Those with a high school degree or less have double the rate of unemployment as those with a college degree.

Building off #3, historically individuals without a college education went into blue collar work. Well paying blue collar work was manufacturing. Now that is gone and isn't coming back at the level we used to have it. We are left with low paying service work. Hence the big push for unionizing McDonalds, etc.

Illegal immigrants are being taken advantage of and also taking jobs that would otherwise be done by market rate employees. This is a dual problem.

1) Mexicans are being treated like sharecroppers at best, borderline slaves at worst

2) They are taking jobs from people who could otherwise do them at worst or at best they are keeping wages down for jobs that would necessarily be done Americans.

Hence why I don't support what Obama did. I am totally fine with an expedited citizenship process for people south of the boarder or something along those lines, but I fail to see how there is anything lawful or fair with letter people who came here illegally circumvent an immigration process that everyone else has to go through. Including people who come from places far worse than Mexico. Lets remember that NAFTA sent a lot of US manufacturing jobs to Mexico, putting Americans out of work. Now we rub salt in that wound by allowing illegal immigrants to come to the US and take the remaining service jobs for wages less than what Americans would work for.

This also ignores the fact that these employers are basically pushing costs onto the public sphere by paying these people lower wages. It also defies basic logic. Why are we bringing more unskilled workers into this country when it is obvious that the future is only going to become more technical and skilled.

Or how about the fact that whatever best case scenario you look at, this will increase the demand for welfare type programs in the short term as these "new" Americans learn English and become established. Just read the news and see how these new immigrants are taxing the educational system. I am happy they now have a better life, but we are starving funds for Americans who desperately need them.

Of course the response you'll hear from many is to simply increase taxes. The standard and endless response. All find and dandy, but it is pretty damn insulting to raise taxes for anyone in this country to not improve the lives of Americans, but to pay for a bunch of people that shouldn't be here legally.

I'm sorry, but being fine with this is essentially the epitome of being oblivious of the plight of the poor and non-white. It also ignores all the struggles that millions of immigrants go though that aren't lucky enough to have been born within walking distance of the US. Mexico isn't Somalia. Mexico isn't Haiti. It is a fine country with industry, natural resources, tourism, agriculture, a functioning government, etc.

My suggestion to Obama is simple and something that would improve the lives of his core voting block and Mexicans at the same time. Simply end the war on drugs. Remove the demand for this war that costs lives in Mexico, drains that countries government of fund and it would improve the lives of countless African Americans who waste prime years of their lives in jail for non-violent crimes. It would also largely remove the temptation for such a lucrative, but ultimately costly career that ruins lives.

http://newjimcrow.com/

Give this book a read. It might open your eyes.

 

The West's fascination with dichotomies is a result of a winner-take-all political arrangement. The reason why there's not more shades of grey is because people self-identify and conform their beliefs over time. I'm sure a lot of my ideals fall both under the ''conservative' and 'liberal' umbrellas - surely there's some room in your black and white world for someone like that, right?

 

I'd maybe support a three parry system, but anything more than that is simply gridlock. We don't need 30 parties with minutia issues as their marching call. That is nothing but a receipt for factions. I think the two parry system is rather brilliant because it forces people to decide which issues really matter to them.

 

Yes, but that's not a true democracy is it? 2 choices for a country of 300M+ isn't very representative of what the American public actually looks like.

The gridlock a 3 or more party system could potentially bring wouldn't be as bad as the extreme polarization and lack of action by the jagwad lawmakers we currently have. If anything, it would facilitate congressmen moving towards the middle to compromise and actually do their fucking jobs.

Off topic: I think we should introduce Question Time like they do in the UK because it would be great to see politicians getting called out by each other, and I'm positive it would devolve into an all out brawl within minutes.

 
the_stig:

Yes, but that's not a true democracy is it? 2 choices for a country of 300M+ isn't very representative of what the American public actually looks like.

The gridlock a 3 or more party system could potentially bring wouldn't be as bad as the extreme polarization and lack of action by the jagwad lawmakers we currently have. If anything, it would facilitate congressmen moving towards the middle to compromise and actually do their fucking jobs.

Off topic: I think we should introduce Question Time like they do in the UK because it would be great to see politicians getting called out by each other, and I'm positive it would devolve into an all out brawl within minutes.

We aren't a democracy. We are a representative Republic. And people can vote for whatever person they want. We just have two main parties.

Government isn't supposed to move fast. It's supposed to be slow, bitter, gridlocked. What people don't get is for everyone complaining about gridlock you have someone supporting resistance.

 

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