How do you get financial modeling training if you are not going to be doing an i-banking summer internship but you still want to do i-banking fulltime. I am going to be on Wall Street this summer but just not in i-banking, how can I learn about this?
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Divine intervention on the shitter
Take a class...
open excel.
no shit sherlock, but then what
I'd hit up yahoo or google and search out financial model examples and the like. There has to be some sample excel files floating around in cyber space. If that fails, check out a bookstore. Ideally, firms want to know you have some knowledge of modeling (you already have the job), but realistically, they will mold you into what kind of modeler (word?) they want.
DealMaven, WallStreetPrep, Damodaran's site (google it).
The first two cost money, but are worth it IMO.
I haven't found a single good book on Excel and financial modeling (may be time for me to write it). Along with the other book I want to write ("Too Blue for Banking: A Men's Fashion Guide to the Financial Services Industry"
You can always do DealMaven.
While I'm not sure how necessary it is, if you really have your heart set on becoming conversant in modeling, have a patient friend who's already been working full time for a while (read: not a first year, if it can be helped) explain the basics of an integrated cash flow model to you and walk you through a template. If you've got a decent grasp of accounting, it's really not hard to understand the principles. If they were trained by a good training firm, then you could "borrow" their step-by-step modeling manual and template so you can play around with it, which would be ideal. Then buy said patient friend a beer. Or a shot, if they're an embittered third year analyst. But anyway, all that will only get you familiar with modeling--you really won't understand it well until you've built one from scratch and gone barking mad trying to get your BS to balance for the first time. But hey, it's a start. Good luck.
Training the Street(I don't work there or get compensated for the plug).
Took their valuation and modeling courses. They have open enrollment in some cities. You'll learn a lot more in 2-4 days then you'll ever learn in school as far as real application to investment banking. The valuation course is essentially a template for technical interviews. Money!
While I agree that TTS is the best, isn't it REALLY expensive to sit in on their courses and buy their materials?
I was lucky enough to take it through my university, where they essentially subsidized the courses. It's $199 to buy an online subscription. I can't find the link for open enrollment or I would post it. Yeah it's not cheap. As far as technicals goes, my TTS valuation packet was invaluable to interviews. The class however, adds a lot of insight to the packet and interview Q's.
How would I find out if my school would do this for me?
Is this just to train for interviews or what? I took a grand total of 2 accounting/finance related courses and talked to a 2nd year associate for about 2 hours on the phone. Aside from my very first technical interview, I feel that I did just as well as anyone could possibly do technical-wise. A lot of interviews I had they didn't even bother mentioning the technical stuff.
Are you bringing up your excel modelling/valuation skills in the interview and using that as a sell point if you are getting this in-depth knowledge before you even start? How are you using it to your advantage?
I was interviewing for Associate positions and never interviewed for Analyst so I don't know if they expect Associates to know more, but I assume that they do. I never brought up modeling skills b/c they're still shit compared to what they will be.
In my experience, accounting and finance courses give little insight into their respective business applications. Sometimes professors even give information that if you repeated in an interview you would get dinged.
You'll eventually pick-up the technical interview through experience(though generally bad).
I think it helped the most in case type technical questions, where the interviewer can easily tell if you just memorized a bunch of stuff or if you actually understand what's going on. TTS helped me to quickly grasp an understanding.
Also, TTS is not for interviewing prep, they just point out a lot of things that pop up on the technical interviews.
Interviewers will steer the interview to your experience. If you say you worked with financial models for the last 12 months in your intership, you better know your shit. If you are a liberal arts major, you get more of a free pass on the technicals.
Like if you are doing a BB summer internship program but not in the investment banking division, whenever you are interviewing for full time investment banking positions, do the interviewers expect you to know how to model?
"Like if you are doing a BB summer internship program but not in the investment banking division, whenever you are interviewing for full time investment banking positions, do the interviewers expect you to know how to model?"
No. But if they ask you if you know how to use Excel, the answer had better be yes.
Agreed.
If you're trying to prepare for interviews, focus your efforts more on your current experience: have crafted a very convincing story describing the arc of your past few years. Tell them why you chose the school that you did, why you study and participate in whatever it is you do there, why you researched and took the internship you did, why the hell you'd ever want to subject yourself to Wall Street (clearly you're not doing this for the leisurely lifestyle) and why it seems you want to make a switch from whatever you're doing this summer to IB. Just be able to defend the choices you've made both on the job and at school, and if your interviewer sees a common, logical theme to your stories and you seem like a normal, well-adjusted person, you'll perform better than soooo many of your peers. Technical knowledge, while it shows you've done your homework and that you care, ain't gonna guarantee you a golden ticket by itself. Know the basics of Excel, have that couple hour conversation with an Associate or Analyst or whomever, spend some time studying what they tell you (for the sweet love, be able to sketch a basic IS-BS-CF), but I wouldn't go much further beyond what they tell you to do. TTS is great, they're the firm that trained me and many others, but spending a bunch of money on an open enrollment class of theirs just for interviewing prep, while interesting, sure, may end up being a little overkill. Worse, it may lead your interviewer to go into Gestapo-interrogation mode on modeling, which could get fugly. We care if you know what you're supposed to know for a college kid wanting to do this and who's had XYZ internship--we don't expect you to be able to sit down and whip out an accretion/dilution (that actually might be kind of creepy).
I completely agree, having a very strong and logical story will help you so much more than technical skills. I would look at it this way. You need the basic technical skills and understanding, but to convert an interview to an offer the story must be strong.
you are just a loser if you are not doing I-banking at GS/MS, so why are you even bothering? Was not that what you are saying in your posts..
Nareman want to make love with LediLexa.
If you live in Chicago, Wall Street Prep has a course in mid April I suggest you check out. They give a ridiculous discount to students. I think the price is usually around $400 per day but here the student rate is $199 for both days. I definitely think this is worth the money. http://www.WallStreetPrep.com/programs/details.php?package_id=140
TheAnalystExchange also give similar training to the Wall Street Prep, but has ongoing classes. Anyone happen to know more?
you are just a loser if you are not doing I-banking at GS/MS, so why are you even bothering? Was not that what you are saying in your posts..
-You are terrible, where are you working this summer?
Just on a side note, you really don't learn that much financial modeling as a summer intern, besides during the one day of training. At least in my experience, and that of other interns at my bank.
then other than the title of being a BB summer analyst, what DO you gain out of working 100 hours a week over the summer for a bulge? call me naive, but i am from a non-target and know of only one person from my school who has worked IBD in a BB- most who get into it at my school start at boutiques.
Most good interns at my bank work on models by the end of the summer. Some do alot more than others, it depends... Some of the TMT and Idustrials interns do ALOT of modelling... (interns who model usually get KILLED in our group because there is such a high demand for them) It really depends.
But the purpose of an internship is to 1. get the job and 2. figure out if you want the job. Modelling is secondary.
It means the associates/analysts will give loads of work to the intern once they've discovered that he can model. It will give the intern great pleasure at the beginning but a shameful realization at the end of summer that those associates and analysts were just shitting on his head, passing on their work and sucking up the intern's vitality.
Use the search function for further info buddy.
Self study financial modeling classes online are cheaper than bootcamps and you have several great options. You can see what i recommend right here: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/financial-modeling-training
Good luck! Patrick
I've done Breaking Into Wall Street and Training the Street on my own. My MM IB used Wall Street Prep for their training. I'd avoid TTS...I was not a fan. BIWS and WSP are solid. I'd give a slight edge to BIWS, but both are solid.
EDIT: I'd avoid the boot camps. I cannot imagine sitting through an entire day of financial modeling. Training was tough enough.
Learning Modeling/Excel (Originally Posted: 10/20/2010)
I am a current Junior and want to land an ER internship this summer. However, my only internship experience involved no modeling or excel work so my skills are severely lacking in those areas. I was wondering how any of you guys think I should get started in learning this kind of stuff. Any online programs or tutorials that you think might be helpful?
Is attempting to do this on my own advisable? I feel like at least it will show that I took some personal initiative to learn some of this stuff.
Hi, the online tutorials at leverageacademy.com are very helpful and cover DCF Modeling, LBO Modeling, Comparables, precedent transactions, Liquidation Analysis, and Merger Modeling. I used the program myself to get an internship at a boutique tech private equity firm. E-mail [email protected] for more information.
I'm in the process of learning this myself. I found WSP online for free, google for it. I was wondering though whether the HBS case series would be useful to practice my excel-fu?
breaking into wall street is also a great resource, WSP is very good and if you can get it for free i'd snag it...
Here is an article that you may find helpful: http://www.wallstinsiders.com/insights/article/financial_modeling_whats…
Here is a program as well: http://www.wallstinsiders.com/insights/article/transition_to_a_hedge_fu…
Best way to learn financial modeling for a bio major? (Originally Posted: 02/06/2012)
I've been getting a decent amount of interviews but the lack of modeling experience is what is holding me back. I understand a the DCF but have no experience building models. I was looking at Trainingthestreet but it is not offered much and will be difficult to fit my schedul and also very expensive. What do you think is the best option for me, maybe a self prep course or something? Thanks
Hey Ryan,
As a WSO member, you automatically get 15% off any Wall Street Prep packages (we have an affiliate partnership with them). We stand by their program and can attest to it's quality for self-study (as well as live training). To access this discount you can just click on the banner below the comment box here or visit the WSO discounts page to see all the discounts we offer: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/wall-street-oasis-discounts
Good luck whatever you decide, Patrick
I recommend the wall st. prep courses since they are the most widely used and often reused in real IB - training. You also get the books where other courses are just strictly online notes.
I have been in Training the Street beore and Wall St. Prep is near identical but cheaper. The models and books are identical in my opinion.
They are presented academically which suits a student much easier than the "Rosetta Stone" pure online versions.
How much weight do each of these programs pull when interviewing? More broadly, if there is one certification/program to take or enroll in, which will give you the most significant advantage when interviews begin?
Nickvestment, none of these programs have huge pull to LAND an interview, although Wall Street Prep does have one of the more established names out there (along with Training the Street) since they actually train analysts at banks (so many bankers are familiar with them)...so on the margin, if you're just looking for a bullet point on the resume, Wall Street Prep might be the way to go, but that is missing the point...especially since it is mainly just used as a signal to the interviewer that you are interested in finance / banking. (The Wall Street Prep certification is also nice to have, but again, I don't think that is where the value is).
The primary value in my opinion of these self-study programs is that it helps you get more comfortable with financial concepts and what you would be doing on the job. This, in turn, will help you sound more educated in the interview...and if you are able to demonstrate technical proficiency and answer a few modeling / technical questions correctly, it shows that you have the mental capacity and the interviewers will likely then focus more on behavioral questions. Whether you get the job or not will primarily rest on how likable you are, how well you answer the fit questions and if you've practiced enough mock interviews.
Whatever program you decide to go with, good luck and keep us updated on your progress.
Thanks, Patrick
Highly recommend Wall Street Prep - I worked through a bit of a jacked copy (sorry Patrick) and will buy the real thing when I am ready to go to IBD
These will not help you at all during interviews.
Spend your time learning:
1) Accounting 2) corporate finance then 3) ibankingfaq.com
(this assumes you have taken no business classes)
go BIWS.
agree with treynor...the BIWS products are very good. While they are pricey...they helped me quite a bit. I recommend them 100%
Go with Wall Street Prep. I went through it, it's an excellent program; you'll understand how banking models are built cold. I still reference it today.
I also recommend BIWS. Way cheaper than all the other programs out there, and I find the videos way more helpful than a guy talking and then excel screenshots popping up.
I'd argue that the return on investment in BIWS has been much higher than that of my university - and I went to a good school...
^Agreed on BIWS. You get a lifetime access.
If you get the full package, you also get access to his different industry-specific models in FIG, O&G, RE, etc. and he's still adding new industry-specific modules. I'm not sure how much WSPrep charges for their 'full package' (will let Patrick fill in the blanks here), but BIWS was 400-something for everything last time I checked.
BIWS is kid stuff. Wall Street Prep is the industry standard. Both TTS and WSP run analyst training programs, and both have very good reputations, but Wall Street Prep has a much better organized and intuitively laid out self learning program.
I personally disagree with this. The fundamentals in BIWS is pretty basic, but the point is to understand modeling from a conceptual level so that you are ready for interviews. This is what the OP seems to need.
The advanced modeling and the industry models are very robust and really deal with the mechanics of modeling so that you are ready for the job.
Best way to learn modeling? (Originally Posted: 06/07/2012)
Hi all- Just wondering what the best way to get up to speed on modeling is?
How do you know if what you've modeled is any good? Or if you have modeled out the right line-items? For example how do you decide what to project versus what to just hold constant to last year?
Any advice would be great. Thanks
So I assume this means you're trying to avoid the numerous online modeling courses?
I know people are going to say "on the job"...
but
Bump
Or for example, modeling out cash flow.
Seems like most models take a pretty conservative approach to modeling out cash, a lot of times the assumption is the company won't invest in anything other than PPE.
Or CF from operations trends up over time because an analyst is not modeling out what the historical, average change in working capital has been (just NI, stock based comp, A/P, A/R)? (Thus skewing FCF up also)
LOL at the end of the day it's all a crap shoot. If you want to give people information they can really use, make sure to list all those assumptions so your results can be interpreted correctly.
Also I suppose not TECHNICALLY modeling, but I would go out and buy a copy of "How to Read a Financial Report: Wringing Vital Signs Out of the Numbers" By John A. Tracey. In my MSF program, day one, first class, Professor says "get this book and have it read by tomorrow"
A solid understanding of that book will give your modeling an edge. And the best part is you can get it for under $10 on Amazon!!
Try the BIWS course or Wall Street Prep. I'm working through BIWS right now and it's been pretty solid.
Try listening to Prof. Malhotra's speech to MBAs "Quit Early and Quit Often," that's where I learned
I was a 1/10 going into Training the Street (read: probably all the xls training programs are good) from undergrad. I remember them asking if anyone did not know what ctrl + B does, and it was a funny question to everyone. I did not know.
Came out a 5/10, meaning I could now model and get around quickly. Also learned ctrl B. I still had no idea what any of it really meant, but at least I knew some shortcuts and could plug in numbers. I still failed case studies / modelling test when I would run IRRs on monthly calcs and it was like a 5% return. I just did not know what to look for - much like yourself.
As far as what to hold consistent, find someone on here to help you. It is different in every industry. I am sure if I would have asked someone with reasonable experience help me out on here they would have. That is how you can know if it is any good before it is too late.
Also, this book tells you step by step what the standard is for projecting each line item and does an excellent job of hand holding through modelling. In school when I went through it I was really surprised that every question i had was answered on the previous or next page.
http://www.amazon.com/Investment-Banking-Valuation-Leveraged-Acquisitio…
Investment Banking: Valuation, Leveraged Buyouts, and Mergers and Acquisitions
Invaluable resource.
^I"m assuming TTS was during training for you? How long ago was that?
Actually I signed up for it voluntarily during the first few weeks as an associate in ER. There was no training. It was just on the company training website as a continued education thing.
This was 2010.
OK thanks for the suggestion
I understand industries and companies themselves differ a lot as regards the financials, but i'm kinda surprised there isn't more boilerplate modeling direction out there.
Maybe it's because models aren't taken that seriously to begin with? From an ER standpoint your model gets you revenue / projected earnings / cashflow / BS health but that's about it. After that it's all valuation, macro or other material events driving the stock price?
Yes, Rosenbaum is a fantastic resource.
Self Learn Accounting/Modeling? (Originally Posted: 08/20/2012)
Firstly, are there any college finance/accounting classes necessary for ib interviews or the job itself? If so, is only financial accounting necessary, or do recruiters prefer to see corporate finance, managerial accounting, Mergers and Acquisitions, portfolio management, etc. for "relevant courses"?
Is it possible to self learn the accounting and finance necessary for IB while pursuing a non business degree like geography, comm, pre - med, etc? Or would the formal accounting/finance classes really be that much better for understanding? Lastly, if you were a hiring manager for a bulge bracket, is there any chance at all that you would consider a sociology major at a non target that also offers a finance major (granted he understands how to model, good GPA, "networked", etc)
It is possible to get into IB without accounting/finance majors. Hell, you can get in without even a business major. The question is why would you bother? If you know you want to do IB, you should be doing a course that positions you for your future career. You can try to learn accounting/finance by yourself, but you will get a) a very basic understanding which is more or less meaningless and b) zero credit for your knowledge. You also run the risk of learning it wrong, i.e. you may think you understand it, but really you’ve got no fucking idea. Seasoned bankers can smell BS a mile away.
Although I am not in the finance industry, I do know that BB hires with non finance background. You can possible learn the necessary skills through Wall Street Prep or BWIS or something else. Again, I am trying to break into IB with engineering degree.
Learning financial modeling / investment banking - really all on-the-job? (Originally Posted: 08/27/2013)
Hello,
I'm trying to get answers from a 'structured' and/or 'name brand' shop so I have an idea of how things are really like. For those who had little finance knowledge going into their IB jobs - Did you guys really learn almost everything on-the-job?
A lot of times when we prepare for IB technical interviews, we are asked questions like how does X affect the 3 statements, and why do certain methodologies have greater valuations, etc... Do you guys who now have FT IB jobs and have been working for 6+ months know the answer now because you fully understand it?
In other words, how long did it take most people here to finally 'get it' in terms of fully understanding technical finance knowledge? And when/how did you finally grasp the understanding? Was it after you closed your first big deal? Or just practicing over and over? Are you (and most analysts) able to model everything from scratch, as opposed to templates?
Sorry for the long post - I want to open it up for discussion basically: Is learning financial modeling all really on-the-job?
PS: I know it's not rocket science and it won't have to be reiterated
I think it depends on the bank / group. The boutique I'm working at for instance is heavily focused on presentation, marketing, and just professionally managing the process. We don't model often and when we do it's all templated out and you're literally just putting numbers in and dealing with some complexities of modeling private firms (i.e. little to no 'financial analysis')
Bump
I'd like to hear the answer of this, too.
Best Way to Learn Modeling Skills (Originally Posted: 09/30/2013)
I've got the basics down - vlookup, offset, indirect, logic, etc. but don't necessarily have a feel for actually applying them creatively. Also looking for some help with VBA. Emphasis on real estate.
What do you guys recommend?
Books? Classes? Are there excel tutors out there?
SBs for any useful leads...
what are you trying to learn?
modeloff.com posted last year's questions with answers and I believe that one of the models was real estate related.
http://www.modeloff.com/questions/
Also has a resources page.
Wiseowl for VBA for Excel. BIWS has a good Real Estate Package
Sorry if I wasn't clear - looking to learn high level modeling skills (i.e. strategy for organizing data, best practices, etc.) and any emphasis on real estate related modeling - underwriting equity/debt, portfolios of properties, etc. would be useful as well.
I took Josh Kahr's class and LOVED it-- he is a great teacher and illustrated almost every model with an example from his experience (no, I don't get paid to say this!).
I took the REFM class and liked it as well--both are good. I'd take Kahr first and then REFM, but whatever way works. There is overlap but I like taking both.
Two books Kahr recommended: Excel By Halley
Excel Hacks From Kahr"It's mainly dedicated to visual basic, but it's not written for computer programmers"
Good luck!
I usually run all of my calcs through 1-3 sheets, with a page solely used for data validation. Keep certain interim calc checks visible near the inputs, so future users don't need to dig through the calc sheets for certain checkpoints.
Organization - Mark you inputs with fill & font colors. In-cell "comments" are important for future users, or remembering your switches.
CRE - SUMIF's are your friend for monthly cash flows. Link account codes to your export, and the function will allow your "proforma template" to draw from the export. Lookups for annual rollups, and PSF data. If you are running a portfolio, make sure to have an "active/closed" switch in all your coding. You will easily be able to turn off cash flows from one property if it sold.
Formatting is your friend. I usually will run a single line above a subcategory total (opex line items, and total opex). I will usually use a single line on top and a double line on bottom for NOI, single line on top and dark line on bottom for property-level NCF, and double dark lines for project NCF (debt placement, acquisition costs, all else). You will do most of your analysis here and it is important you break up a hundred rows of numbers into something easy to view.
The Summary Page - Page layout view. Key metrics provided. Format.
GETREFM is great. I've been working on the Excel for Real Estate Bootcamp and its been very helpful coming from a background with little excel and real estate experience. The more intermediate options may be better suited for you though.
I'm using REFM now after having built a solid foundation of shortcut keystrokes. Not a huge fan of Bruce's teaching methods but the info is there. I really like WallStreetPrep.com teaching style. Very thorough.
How do I learn financial modeling and related computational methods? (Originally Posted: 10/16/2013)
I am a junior and I am double majoring in Mathematics and Economics. Principles of Financial Accounting is the only class that I have taken that is related to Finance. Can you please give me suggestions for books/ online courses/ other resources that I can use to learn financial modeling? Ideally, I would not only like to learn the Financial theory but also the computational methods (Excel, VBA, Python, etc). I have listed relevant coursework below in order to give you a better idea of the types of math and programming concepts that I am able to handle.
Economics: Econometrics and Advanced Econometrics (2 different classes)
Mathematics: Ordinary Differential Eq, Partial Differential Eq, Probability Theory, Numerical Analysis, Linear Algebra and Calc 3.
Computer Languages: Python, VBA, STATA and SAS
Breaking Into Wall Street (BIWS) or Wall Street Prep. BIWS is arguably better, but WSP gives you a discount for being a member here on WSO.
WSP is more technical. I recommend it. Both are good though.
Surely there is something on Youtube
Am interested in this as well
I have WSP's guide. It's a pretty easy walk through, I keep it on hand if I just need to reference something. The first model has the steepest learning curve, once you do your 3rd or 4th you should probably feel comfortable with doing models on your own.
Thanks for the replies everybody. I think I will get the WallStreetPrep course.
I am also just getting started in investing and I am trying to learn as much as possible about investing, hedging and portfolio management. Can you please give me suggestions for books that I should read and theories/ concepts (Black- Scholes Model, Modern Portfolio Theory, etc) that I should understand well? I talked a little about the math classes that I have taken in my first post and you could refer to that while making suggestions for theories. Your help is greatly appreciated.
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