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1/14/12

We all know how expensive pursuing MBA can be. Most programs would cost you anywhere from 50-80k a year including living expenses. Then, factor in the opportunity cost of leaving your work for two years, and MBA sure as hell is an expensive credential to pursue.

So, what is the lowest ranked-MBA program that you would consider attending, after factoring in ROI, opportunity cost, and risk/ reward potential?

For me - I wouldn't attend an MBA ranked below U Texas/ UNC range. Getting I-banking or top consulting out of UNC/ U Texas MBA can still be tough, but at least I will get to watch sick sports and have an awesome social life at these schools, which make these two MBA programs worth it to attend in my book.

Comments (340)

Best Response
1/13/12

I wouldn't expect everyone to answer this question the same -- we all have different situations that could benefit differently from different MBA programs. While I definitely hope to get an education out of an MBA, the network and brand name will likely have a much greater influence on my career. Given I'll be paying for my MBA out of pocket and the opportunity cost is high, I'll likely draw the line at the Top 5 or Top 7 schools.

That said, I can see how others may be completely justified in attending a Top 20 or a Top 50 school. There are legions of Fortune 1000 employees out there trying to advance in their careers. It isn't uncommon for an employer to offer promotions or pay bumps to employees who obtain their MBA. Furthermore, most Fortune 1000 companies have education reimbursement policies that reduce the cost of school, and some out-right pay for it. This can be a no-brainer for your average back office employee -- they don't even care about the network nor the on campus recruiting. As for the prestige factor, it's all relative. The finance support staff at a random Fortune 1000 company may think that BC/BU/Babson's MBA programs are top notch and look highly at those degree holders. Sure, HBS will always be a far cry ahead, but that doesn't mean every other school is worthless.

You also need to take into consideration an entirely different market -- the career changers. For many folks, their only shot of getting a job in a business discipline is through an MBA program. Maybe they are stuck in some dead-end job as a waitress because they chose to major in underwater basket-weaving. Whatever the case, a Top 50 MBA could be their path to a corporate job that offers more job security, stable pay, and higher earnings potential. For these people, the $100K cost may be worth it in the long run (and maybe it won't).

Sure, it doesn't make as much sense for someone who is looking to break into IB to go to a top 50, but that doesn't mean these schools don't serve a purpose. There will be people who attend MBA programs and will find they wasted $100K. There will be others that attend the same programs and go on to make tremendous money that more than justifies the cost. The world has winners and losers, and MBA students are no exception, regardless of which program they attend.

CompBanker

Accepted.com
1/13/12

I wont waste my money on a MBA unless I'm going to a top 5-7 school.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

1/13/12

Too freaking expensive to go anywhere outside the top 15.

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:

I wont waste my money on a MBA unless I'm going to a top 5-7 school.

I used to think this way too, but I noticed there are many successful finance and consulting guys from B-schools such as NYU Stern, Duke, Michigan Ross, Cornell, and UNC, all of which are ranked outside top 7.

My guess would be that ultra selective employers such as MBB consulting or elite PE shops don't recruit outside M7, but outside of these small number of employers, it doesn't make that much difference as long as you attend a top 15-20-ish school, but that's just my speculation. I think most of BB's and non-MBB consulting shops still recruit heavily at most of top 20 MBA programs.

Outside of top 20 MBA though, I think all B-schools are just scams desperate to collect your tuition money.

1/13/12

I personally don't care much who recruits where. I'm pretty sure I won't need business school and will only go to take a break from working and gain access to a new network. I'm also pretty sure I'll be able to get into one of the top 7.

If not, I'll take my money and travel instead while reading a ton and auditing an online class or two. I think it would be pretty cool to live in south/central america for six months and in europe for another six.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to seedy underbelly
1/13/12
seedy underbelly:

Too freaking expensive to go anywhere outside the top 15.

I seriously think lower-ranked programs need to reduce their tuition, or they are just being scams and screwing with people's future. Imagine going into 150k in debt for a mediocre MBA and ending up in a dead end job with shitty pay. Why anyone would choose to attend Purdue MBA paying 150k is beyond me...

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:

Too freaking expensive to go anywhere outside the top 15.

I seriously think lower-ranked programs need to reduce their tuition, or they are just being scams and screwing with people's future. Imagine going into 150k in debt for a mediocre MBA and ending up in a dead end job with shitty pay. Why anyone would choose to attend Purdue MBA paying 150k is beyond me...

But they won't because gullible people will stay pay for them. I agree, they should be much cheaper than the top 7.

In reply to seedy underbelly
1/13/12
seedy underbelly:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:

Too freaking expensive to go anywhere outside the top 15.

I seriously think lower-ranked programs need to reduce their tuition, or they are just being scams and screwing with people's future. Imagine going into 150k in debt for a mediocre MBA and ending up in a dead end job with shitty pay. Why anyone would choose to attend Purdue MBA paying 150k is beyond me...

But they won't because gullible people will stay pay for them. I agree, they should be much cheaper than the top 7.

Agreed. And, this is kind of sad.

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money. All of that is nice, except you will likely to miss out on most of finance/ consulting recruiting if you attend MBA ranked below top 20. And, the ultimate purpose of going to MBA is to get a job in finance or consulting...

I wish there is some regulation that polices the prices of MBA programs, and sets the ceiling on the prices. There are just too many retards who are going to pay insane amounts to attend these second tier MBA schools, only to fuck with their lives with shit load of debt. This whole thing - outrageous tuition even at mediocre MBA, colleges, and law schools - is fucking retarded and this needs to be fixed.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
seedy underbelly:

Too freaking expensive to go anywhere outside the top 15.

I seriously think lower-ranked programs need to reduce their tuition, or they are just being scams and screwing with people's future. Imagine going into 150k in debt for a mediocre MBA and ending up in a dead end job with shitty pay. Why anyone would choose to attend Purdue MBA paying 150k is beyond me...

But they won't because gullible people will stay pay for them. I agree, they should be much cheaper than the top 7.

Agreed. And, this is kind of sad.

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money. All of that is nice, except you will likely to miss out on most of finance/ consulting recruiting if you attend MBA ranked below top 20. And, the ultimate purpose of going to MBA is to get a job in finance or consulting...

I wish there is some regulation that polices the prices of MBA programs, and sets the ceiling on the prices. There are just too many retards who are going to pay insane amounts to attend these second tier MBA schools, only to fuck with their lives with shit load of debt. This whole thing - outrageous tuition even at mediocre MBA, colleges, and law schools - is fucking retarded and this needs to be fixed.

So what you are saying is that an MBA is useless unless you want to go the consulting/finance route

AND

That there are lots of retards in this world who go to top 20 business schools instead of top 7.

1/13/12

HBS

I eat success for breakfast...with skim milk

In reply to TonyPerkis
1/13/12
TonyPerkis:

HBS

ha nice

But seriously a good question, I think it's one you have to ask in terms of where you want to end up.

Personally, I draw the line at stern & fuqua.

1/13/12

WUSTL #20, and that's only because they are free to apply, require no recs, and with my gmat/ background I could probably get a decent scholarship there.

1/13/12

The rank of the overall bschool doesnt mean anything. It depends on what you want to do. For example one of the top MBA programs for golf course management is at a MBA program that isnt even top 100. You all are too quick to write of anyone who does not ooze prestige. The fact of the matter is that finance is not the only career path that exists in the world.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

1/13/12

For all you jackassees saying anything outside the top 10 is a waste, work for a few years and see how successful alums from some of those 'middling' institutions are.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

1/13/12

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

1/13/12

Wouldn't this really depend on what you plan on doing post mba? Sure if you want to work at the top PE/IB/MBB firm having having a top 5-7 mba is definitely going to give you a great advantage. Even if you go top 20, you can make anything happen with the right connections etc. Suppose you want to work at a lower tier bank or boutique firm? Is a top 5 school necessary?

Maybe you don't want to do banking or PE at all. I think it all really depends on your post mba plans and what you want to do in life

In reply to Bobb
1/13/12
Bobb:

Wouldn't this really depend on what you plan on doing post mba? Sure if you want to work at the top PE/IB/MBB firm having having a top 5-7 mba is definitely going to give you a great advantage. Even if you go top 20, you can make anything happen with the right connections etc. Suppose you want to work at a lower tier bank or boutique firm? Is a top 5 school necessary?

Maybe you don't want to do banking or PE at all. I think it all really depends on your post mba plans and what you want to do in life

Yes, I agree with this for the most part. It also depends on your opportunity cost and what you're willing to give up for an MBA. For a lot of people, they are not willing to take out a massive loan and give up 2 years of income for any b-school that is not top 10. Much of this comes down to personal career goals, preferences, etc.

1/13/12

I think my point is being misunderstood. I think all MBA degrees are overvalued so I would rather take a year off traveling than go almost anywhere. This is just my opinion and I had no intention of slighting those who go to schools outside of the top 7.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

Get busy living

1/13/12

University of Pheonix MBA best one on the market!

"Know what to do, know how to do it, and do it hard." - Juan Castillo

If you are in the Toronto Area join my group "Toronto Prospective Monkeys"
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/group/toronto-prosp...

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:

I think my point is being misunderstood. I think all MBA degrees are overvalued so I would rather take a year off traveling than go almost anywhere. This is just my opinion and I had no intention of slighting those who go to schools outside of the top 7.

An M7 MBA is definitely not overvalued. You should really do some more research on this.

1/13/12

I cant comment on UNC but Ive heard some strong things about them although they have to compete with Duke and maybe Emory regionally and then for NYC things get much tougher. But in terms if Texas, UT has the best energy finance program. If you want to do energy finance in Houston, youre better off going to UT or Rice. Houston is not dominated by Ivy leaguers and is quite the opposite with most guys being from UT, A&M, Rice as the top schools who quite honestly would rather higher a smart state school kid from Texas than a yacht warrior New Englander who went to Philips. The other beauty about McCombs is that if you are a solid candidate from out of state who plans to stay in state after graduating ie energy finance, they're pretty liberal to give you an instate waiver -- bringing it from 50k to 30k a year for tuition. Couple that with Texas as a place to live after has solid eco growth, low taxes and much cheaper RE andTONS of latinas = winwinwin. Sure it doesnt place a ton of in New York but unless you have a hard on for NYC, who the fuck cares? They still dominate energy banking -- consulting sure could be stronger but Deloitte is still strong even though it isnt MBB, and you can stay in Austin after to live and work. Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio are all very solid cities and LOTS of tech opening up in Austin. If you want to live in a warm climate low tax state, especially if you want to do energy finance, then UT is top tier -- even for the supermajors rotational programs McCombs has kids going in competing against M7s. Dream job for me would be working at DFA in Austin. fapfapfapfpafpafpap

Disclaimer: Austin gives me a hard on. huge fucking chubber.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
illiniPride:

I wont waste my money on a MBA unless I'm going to a top 5-7 school.

I used to think this way too, but I noticed there are many successful finance and consulting guys from B-schools such as NYU Stern, Duke, Michigan Ross, Cornell, and UNC, all of which are ranked outside top 7.

My guess would be that ultra selective employers such as MBB consulting or elite PE shops don't recruit outside M7, but outside of these small number of employers, it doesn't make that much difference as long as you attend a top 15-20-ish school, but that's just my speculation. I think most of BB's and non-MBB consulting shops still recruit heavily at most of top 20 MBA programs.

Outside of top 20 MBA though, I think all B-schools are just scams desperate to collect your tuition money.

Ideally you want to be top 10, to have a shot at the 'elite' jobs/recruiting...but realistically, a top 25 will get you where you need to be if you have more of a regional focus.

For instance, when I apply to bschool, I will be focused on the SE US. Because of this, as school like Vanderbilt or Emory would trump a school like Texas, even though Texas is considering a better program. Dollar wise, I will be spending near the same amount as a top 7 school, so if I can get in, I'm better off going their, because the brand name is substantial enough to still work well in a more regional market...however, a UNC or Emory is going to serve me better in Atlanta or Charlotte vs an MBA from Texas...and vice versa if I wanted to work in Texas.

Also, you might be able to secure more cost reductions/grants/scholarships in the 11-25 range vs the 1-10, depending on the overall strength of applications. I've heard of people considering Vanderbilt, UT, UNC and Emory going to UNC because they reduced the tuition significantly for them. That, of course, may be a unique situation.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:

I think my point is being misunderstood. I think all MBA degrees are overvalued so I would rather take a year off traveling than go almost anywhere. This is just my opinion and I had no intention of slighting those who go to schools outside of the top 7.

An M7 MBA is definitely not overvalued. You should really do some more research on this.

Overvalued to me. Not to everyone.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

1/13/12

Out of the M-7 probably more like top 5, all schools are regional.

For me, I'd attend Rice so whatever they're ranked. Top 30?

1/13/12

Personally, I am going to HES for my masters after I retire.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

Accepted.com
1/13/12

to build on CPH's comments, NYC is really the only metro area that circlejerks to brand name, at least to a strong degree. ive heard of kids from mendoza and kelley all landing solid jobs in chicago alongside ross -- socal is marshall and anderson with stanford and haas thrown in too.

you also have to understand that people at these other schools arent so hype on OMG MBB IBD LALALASUCKSWALLOWYUM so there is less competition as well.

In reply to txjustin
1/13/12
txjustin:

Out of the M-7 probably more like top 5, all schools are regional.

That.

Go to the best school in the region in which you wish to live post-grad.

If that is Texas --> don't go to Tuck.

If that is New York ---> don't go to Haas

If that is California ---> don't go to Sloan

Not that you can't get to one from the other, but you're wasting the reason you get an mba...the network.

In reply to shorttheworld
1/13/12
shorttheworld:

to build on CPH's comments, NYC is really the only metro area that circlejerks to brand name, at least to a strong degree.

you also have to understand that people at these other schools arent so hype on OMG MBB IBD LALALASUCKSWALLOWYUM so there is less competition as well.

BWAHAHAHAHA

Get busy living

1/13/12

actually for texas and tuck -- there are Tuckies go get into DFA now and then for IM since French is a professor there and they do place well for consulting in Dallas from what I've seen :) but other than that most likely not haha. But tuck is def more northerastern focused yes

1/13/12

actually cartwright saying to not go to Sloan for California = Silicon Valley is a pretty bad recommendation haha

1/13/12

Ugh. If I were actually interested in consulting or banking, i would definitely apply to stern, haas, anderson.

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:

I wont waste my money on a MBA unless I'm going to a top 5-7 school.

i really hope the illini are not kool aid men lol

1/13/12

I'm drinking the orange kool aid after that victory over OSU.

Why the fuck did I reply to this thread? I knew it was going to turn into a shit show.......

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

1/13/12

what part of UNIVERSITY OF PHEONIX do you not understand?

"Know what to do, know how to do it, and do it hard." - Juan Castillo

If you are in the Toronto Area join my group "Toronto Prospective Monkeys"
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/group/toronto-prosp...

In reply to ConanDBull
1/13/12
ConanDBull:

what part of UNIVERSITY OF PHEONIX do you not understand?

Haha. That's the internet...so it's 'region' is everywhere!

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:

I think my point is being misunderstood. I think all MBA degrees are overvalued so I would rather take a year off traveling than go almost anywhere. This is just my opinion and I had no intention of slighting those who go to schools outside of the top 7.

An M7 MBA is definitely not overvalued. You should really do some more research on this.

Overvalued to me. Not to everyone.

All MBA's are over-valued and over-priced if we are strictly talking about the quality of education that these schools provide. My older bro went to HBS, and he told me he learned absolutely nothing of value except learning how to network. However, the value of top MBA comes from network, sick OCR, and the fact that you can have a break from work and get to fuck around and party hard with other fun, intelligent kids.

In reply to UFOinsider
1/13/12
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:

I think my point is being misunderstood. I think all MBA degrees are overvalued so I would rather take a year off traveling than go almost anywhere. This is just my opinion and I had no intention of slighting those who go to schools outside of the top 7.

An M7 MBA is definitely not overvalued. You should really do some more research on this.

Overvalued to me. Not to everyone.

All MBA's are over-valued and over-priced if we are strictly talking about the quality of education that these schools provide. My older bro went to HBS, and he told me he learned absolutely nothing of value except learning how to network. However, the value of top MBA comes from network, sick OCR, and the fact that you can have a break from work and get to fuck around and party hard with other fun, intelligent kids.

I think you just made my point for me. Outside of the top 7 I would rather spend my dough traveling (unless I had an extremely specific reason for applying to another school).

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

You are so full of shit, you have your head shoved so far up the prestige asshole that you don't see what a non top 20 mba offers. MBAs as you stated are almost exclusively networking tools. Granted that only a few MBA programs are designed for a national presence your "crappy MBAs should be illegal" rant is very shortsighted and makes you look like an elitest douchebag. This is coming from a guy who is considered by many on here to be very elitist.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to heister
1/13/12
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

You are so full of shit, you have your head shoved so far up the prestige asshole that you don't see what a non top 20 mba offers. MBAs as you stated are almost exclusively networking tools. Granted that only a few MBA programs are designed for a national presence your "crappy MBAs should be illegal" rant is very shortsighted and makes you look like an elitest douchebag. This is coming from a guy who is considered by many on here to be very elitist.

Are you retarded?? No. You must be the one full of shit and lacking intellect to argue otherwise.

Seriously, if you pay 70k a year to attend some no-name MBA that doesn't get ANY recruiting from banks or consulting or whatnot, you are doing it wrong and wasting your money.

I only care about prestige for career purposes, and rightfully so. The reason prestige matters at all is because IB and consulting firms only recruit from top 20 or so MBA schools.

And, why the fuck is it wrong to argue that horseshit MBA schools should NOT charge as much tuition as Harvard or Wharton? Clearly, M7 MBA gives much better networking and top notch OCR to top employers, which are incredibly valuable and the only reason anyone should go to MBA. When low ranked schools don't offer these perks, they should NOT charge anything close to what M7 MBA schools charge for tuition.

For example, you would be fucking retarded to argue that it is right for Honda to charge 70k for their Civic. This price is outrageous, considering the quality of the product. Yet, no one cares if Mercedes or Porsche charge 70k for their product, because their quality justifies their price tag. Same shit with MBA and other higher education, including law schools and even colleges.

In reply to heister
1/13/12
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

You are so full of shit, you have your head shoved so far up the prestige asshole that you don't see what a non top 20 mba offers. MBAs as you stated are almost exclusively networking tools. Granted that only a few MBA programs are designed for a national presence your "crappy MBAs should be illegal" rant is very shortsighted and makes you look like an elitest douchebag. This is coming from a guy who is considered by many on here to be very elitist.

If you think a purdue MBA is worth the same as HBS/Wharton, then you are totally clueless.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

You are so full of shit, you have your head shoved so far up the prestige asshole that you don't see what a non top 20 mba offers. MBAs as you stated are almost exclusively networking tools. Granted that only a few MBA programs are designed for a national presence your "crappy MBAs should be illegal" rant is very shortsighted and makes you look like an elitest douchebag. This is coming from a guy who is considered by many on here to be very elitist.

If you think a purdue MBA is worth the same as HBS/Wharton, then you are totally clueless.

I think what Enrique is saying is that anything outside of an ivy is worthless...

Get busy living

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

In reply to UFOinsider
1/13/12
UFOinsider:
Brady4MVP:
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

You are so full of shit, you have your head shoved so far up the prestige asshole that you don't see what a non top 20 mba offers. MBAs as you stated are almost exclusively networking tools. Granted that only a few MBA programs are designed for a national presence your "crappy MBAs should be illegal" rant is very shortsighted and makes you look like an elitest douchebag. This is coming from a guy who is considered by many on here to be very elitist.

If you think a purdue MBA is worth the same as HBS/Wharton, then you are totally clueless.

I think what Enrique is saying is that anything outside of an ivy is worthless...

No. What I am saying is low ranked MBA programs need to adjust their tuition level with their value of product. HBS/ Wharton and Purdue MBA aren't equal, yet they charge almost same tuition, which indicates market failure.

Let's face it - the value of MBA comes from its OCR and its ability to place its students into desirable jobs. Not all MBA programs are equal in quality, hence their tuition level shouldn't be equal either.

1/13/12

fuqua is a target for mckinsey :> and i think BCG is making them one as well. fuqua does very well in consulting for MBB, ross does decent...

for banking anything top 16 is fine.. i really think its more 'top 8' and then a distinction between the top 16 with UT thrown in because UT crushes it in texas and gets really solid jobs and tuck gets all the MBB, IBD, and has a very strong PE program and has investment management-- not HFs

if you want to do investment banking im kind of sure it doesnt matter if youre at HBS or if youre at Fuqua -- okay sure you might get more of an auto in but any of the top 15 you have a really solid chance at it -- i know guys from chicago who went to jefferies so its not like all BB go to the big top schools and then its only MM and jt marlin for non top 8

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

In reply to shorttheworld
1/13/12
shorttheworld:

fuqua is a target for mckinsey :> and i think BCG is making them one as well. fuqua does very well in consulting for MBB, ross does decent...

for banking anything top 16 is fine.. i really think its more 'top 8' and then a distinction between the top 16 with UT thrown in because UT crushes it in texas and gets really solid jobs and tuck gets all the MBB, IBD, and has a very strong PE program and has investment management-- not HFs

if you want to do investment banking im kind of sure it doesnt matter if youre at HBS or if youre at Fuqua -- okay sure you might get more of an auto in but any of the top 15 you have a really solid chance at it -- i know guys from chicago who went to jefferies so its not like all BB go to the big top schools and then its only MM and jt marlin for non top 8

By target, you mean MBB visits fuqua and does on-campus recruiting. But if i'm not mistaken they don't give out that many offers, so the competition will be a nightmare.

Going from booth to jefferies would really fucking suck.

1/13/12

Brady: When is the last time you've gone through life without stressing over the next step? Don't mean this as a dig, just curious.

Enrique: The price is function of supply & demand just like everything else. Demand for B-School in general is high, supply at the elite institutions is low. Therefore demand at the other institutions is also high. They price the degrees where they do because people are willing to pay. I see no reason to regulate that.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

S&T trading at MBA programs have virtually dried up, with the exception of sales. But pure trading desks don't really hire mba's. They prefer promoting their analysts or phd's who can do quant research and programming. That's where the trend is heading.

Yes, getting BB IBD from a place like UT or UNC will be VERY tough. You would have to bust your ass off, network like your life literally depended on it, and get lucky with regards to the job market. This is why i think non-M7 schools are not as nearly as fun.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Brady4MVP:
heister:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

You are so full of shit, you have your head shoved so far up the prestige asshole that you don't see what a non top 20 mba offers. MBAs as you stated are almost exclusively networking tools. Granted that only a few MBA programs are designed for a national presence your "crappy MBAs should be illegal" rant is very shortsighted and makes you look like an elitest douchebag. This is coming from a guy who is considered by many on here to be very elitist.

If you think a purdue MBA is worth the same as HBS/Wharton, then you are totally clueless.

I think what Enrique is saying is that anything outside of an ivy is worthless...

No. What I am saying is low ranked MBA programs need to adjust their tuition level with their value of product. HBS/ Wharton and Purdue MBA aren't equal, yet they charge almost same tuition, which indicates market failure.

Let's face it - the value of MBA comes from its OCR and its ability to place its students into desirable jobs. Not all MBA programs are equal in quality, hence their tuition level shouldn't be equal either.

You have a narrow minded view of the world. People go to bschool for more then finance. I never once said that it is better to go to a non top 20 mba for finance careers. However like I stated before, many schools excel in areas that M7 schools do not. Your rant and logic is flawed because you do not look at reasons out side of how you view the world. I agree that many MBA programs are over priced if you are using them for finance, however that does not mean that they are entirely usless.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

1/13/12

NO ONE IS FORCING A MUFUCKAH TO GET A SHITTY MBA AND SPEND 70K/YR BUT YOU WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO REGULATE THAT SHIT?

KILL YOURSELF.

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:

Brady: When is the last time you've gone through life without stressing over the next step? Don't mean this as a dig, just curious.

Enrique: The price is function of supply & demand just like everything else. Demand for B-School in general is high, supply at the elite institutions is low. Therefore demand at the other institutions is also high. They price the degrees where they do because people are willing to pay. I see no reason to regulate that.

Fair question. It's just the way I am. I'm always looking for the next goal or achievement. Even when I'm out at a bar, I'm thinking about ways to improve my b-school application and how much fun i would be having at a top b-school.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

S&T trading at MBA programs have virtually dried up, with the exception of sales. But pure trading desks don't really hire mba's. They prefer promoting their analysts or phd's who can do quant research and programming. That's where the trend is heading.

Yes, getting BB IBD from a place like UT or UNC will be VERY tough. You would have to bust your ass off, network like your life literally depended on it, and get lucky with regards to the job market. This is why i think non-M7 schools are not as nearly as fun.

Wow... I see. So there seems to be a very dramatic downgrade regarding BB IBD recruiting after top 10 or so schools??

So, outside IBD and consulting, MBA doesn't seem to carry much value.. Getting PE or IM at top firms straight out of MBA must be much harder than getting BB IBD, too.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

S&T trading at MBA programs have virtually dried up, with the exception of sales. But pure trading desks don't really hire mba's. They prefer promoting their analysts or phd's who can do quant research and programming. That's where the trend is heading.

Yes, getting BB IBD from a place like UT or UNC will be VERY tough. You would have to bust your ass off, network like your life literally depended on it, and get lucky with regards to the job market. This is why i think non-M7 schools are not as nearly as fun.

Wow... I see. So there seems to be a very dramatic downgrade regarding BB IBD recruiting after top 10 or so schools??

So, outside IBD and consulting, MBA doesn't seem to carry much value.. Getting PE or IM at top firms must be much harder than getting BB IBD, too.

Getting BB IB is not hard, nor is it a walk in the park out of UTexas MBA, its just not for NYC. Houston has many BB energy IB jobs which they recruit for out of UT.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/13/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

S&T trading at MBA programs have virtually dried up, with the exception of sales. But pure trading desks don't really hire mba's. They prefer promoting their analysts or phd's who can do quant research and programming. That's where the trend is heading.

Yes, getting BB IBD from a place like UT or UNC will be VERY tough. You would have to bust your ass off, network like your life literally depended on it, and get lucky with regards to the job market. This is why i think non-M7 schools are not as nearly as fun.

Wow... I see. So there seems to be a very dramatic downgrade regarding BB IBD recruiting after top 10 or so schools??

So, outside IBD and consulting, MBA doesn't seem to carry much value.. Getting PE or IM at top firms must be much harder than getting BB IBD, too.

Yes, there is a big downgrade. But even at the M7 this year, the job market is rough. I know 2nd years at booth who don't have offers yet and are freaking out. It's brutal out there.

PE, IM, HF, are virtually impossible outside of the top 7-8 schools. I'm gunning for IM, and i know that only a handful of schools even get recruiting from the major IM players. This is the main reason why i'm not applying to the likes of stern/haas/anderson.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:

Brady: When is the last time you've gone through life without stressing over the next step? Don't mean this as a dig, just curious.

Enrique: The price is function of supply & demand just like everything else. Demand for B-School in general is high, supply at the elite institutions is low. Therefore demand at the other institutions is also high. They price the degrees where they do because people are willing to pay. I see no reason to regulate that.

Fair question. It's just the way I am. I'm always looking for the next goal or achievement. Even when I'm out at a bar, I'm thinking about ways to improve my b-school application and how much fun i would be having at a top b-school.

Can I suggest that you inject a healthy dose of not giving a fuck into your thinking? I think you would see a marked improvement to your quality of life.

Try going for a week without thinking about business school and see how you feel. Just try it.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:

Brady: When is the last time you've gone through life without stressing over the next step? Don't mean this as a dig, just curious.

Enrique: The price is function of supply & demand just like everything else. Demand for B-School in general is high, supply at the elite institutions is low. Therefore demand at the other institutions is also high. They price the degrees where they do because people are willing to pay. I see no reason to regulate that.

Fair question. It's just the way I am. I'm always looking for the next goal or achievement. Even when I'm out at a bar, I'm thinking about ways to improve my b-school application and how much fun i would be having at a top b-school.

Can I suggest that you inject a healthy dose of not giving a fuck into your thinking? I think you would see a marked improvement to your quality of life.

Try going for a week without thinking about business school and see how you feel. Just try it.

I'm a lot older than you. Can't afford to "not give a fuck." But every time i've tried to not think about b-school it always comes up. Like yesterday i was at work and got an e-mail from a friend who got off the wharton waitlist. I felt so emotional about not being there that i had to excuse myself from the desk to get composed. Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

S&T trading at MBA programs have virtually dried up, with the exception of sales. But pure trading desks don't really hire mba's. They prefer promoting their analysts or phd's who can do quant research and programming. That's where the trend is heading.

Yes, getting BB IBD from a place like UT or UNC will be VERY tough. You would have to bust your ass off, network like your life literally depended on it, and get lucky with regards to the job market. This is why i think non-M7 schools are not as nearly as fun.

Wow... I see. So there seems to be a very dramatic downgrade regarding BB IBD recruiting after top 10 or so schools??

So, outside IBD and consulting, MBA doesn't seem to carry much value.. Getting PE or IM at top firms must be much harder than getting BB IBD, too.

Yes, there is a big downgrade. But even at the M7 this year, the job market is rough. I know 2nd years at booth who don't have offers yet and are freaking out. It's brutal out there.

PE, IM, HF, are virtually impossible outside of the top 7-8 schools. I'm gunning for IM, and i know that only a handful of schools even get recruiting from the major IM players. This is the main reason why i'm not applying to the likes of stern/haas/anderson.

The two of you share a bunk or what?

Let me enlighten you two. I work at a HF. I don't have an MBA nor did I go to a IVY for UG. I didn't even go to a school that had OCR for the finance industry unless you count retirement advisor funds. Your school is not as important as you make it out to be. If you want to work at KKR sure its important, however there are thousands of firms out there that are just as interesting to work at and have much better cultures then the banks you to have wet dreams over.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

1/13/12

McKinsey & Co., the largest single recruiter of MBAs from top schools, significantly expanded its hires this year at Chicago Booth, Duke Fuqua, Michigan Ross and Berkeley's Haas School. The global consulting firm's got its largest supply of recently minted MBAs from Chicago Booth and Columbia Business School where it brought 39 MBAs from each school aboard, according to an analysis by Poets&Quants.

McKinsey's hires from Booth were up 62.5% from the 24 Chicago MBAs it employed last year. The firm's hires from both Duke University's Fuqua School of Business and Berkeley's Haas School more than doubled, to 15 from 7 at Duke and to 16 from 7 at Haas. The only business school whose McKinsey hires went down this year was Wharton which reported sending 38 MBAs to the firm versus 44 last year. Harvard and Stanford do not release information on their largest MBA hirers.
http://poetsandquants.com/2011/11/16/mckinsey-doub...

15 of a 400ish class at Fuqua vs larger sizes at Columbia and Chicago -- sure they obviously pull better at Chicago and Columbia but the conversion rate isnt anything to scoff at and a far shot from 'no recruiting' . If you want to do NYC IBD then sure UT isnt the best for you -- that being said I know guys in everything from power utility coverage groups to FIG at the likes of JPM,, Citi, and BAML. But anything commodity, energy, or the like relatedUT will crush and dominates Houston for all the BBs -- so they definitely arent lacking at all in BB , maybe if you want to do MS TMT but then you shouldnt go to UT for that :)

theres a big misconception about the 'gap' between the 'tiers' of the top schools -- when it comes down to it just target the programs that recruit for what you want to do. it doesnt hurt to go from top 8 to top 16 if you want to do IBD, consulting the same depending on the school. For IM, PE, yes it does -- but the location also matters a lot. you can snag some MM shops in PE from the southeast or in Texas by going to these other schools as well

In reply to heister
1/13/12
heister:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
Brady4MVP:

Given my age and career goals, it would not make sense for me to go below M7. I seriously considered applying to tuck, stern, and haas, but tuck's location in the middle of nowhere is a dealbreaker, and the latter two's weakness in buyside recruiting is a non-starter as well.

For MBB and generic banking though, anything in the top 15 would work. It will be harder to get MBB from say darden as opposed to kellogg, but plenty have done it with hard work and some luck.

So for banking and consulting placement, the hard cut-off seems to be top 15 MBA?

For MBB and bulge bracket banks, it will be very tough outside of the top 15. Even at schools like darden/haas/fuqua, MBB doesn't take that many people, so the competition will be keen. I know if I were to go to one of those schools, I would be stressed out about recruiting because I would need to bust my ass off to get a good gig, and my social life would suffer. At the M7, I would still work hard, but due to the amazing OCR, i can relax a lot more and spend my time partying. In this sense, b-school is the total opposite of college. The better the school, the more fun you will have.

I see... what other areas of finance besides banking do banks recruit MBA students for? I heard S&T doesn't recruit MBA students much at all. So, getting BB IBD gig from the likes of U Texas or UNC must be really tough...

S&T trading at MBA programs have virtually dried up, with the exception of sales. But pure trading desks don't really hire mba's. They prefer promoting their analysts or phd's who can do quant research and programming. That's where the trend is heading.

Yes, getting BB IBD from a place like UT or UNC will be VERY tough. You would have to bust your ass off, network like your life literally depended on it, and get lucky with regards to the job market. This is why i think non-M7 schools are not as nearly as fun.

Wow... I see. So there seems to be a very dramatic downgrade regarding BB IBD recruiting after top 10 or so schools??

So, outside IBD and consulting, MBA doesn't seem to carry much value.. Getting PE or IM at top firms must be much harder than getting BB IBD, too.

Yes, there is a big downgrade. But even at the M7 this year, the job market is rough. I know 2nd years at booth who don't have offers yet and are freaking out. It's brutal out there.

PE, IM, HF, are virtually impossible outside of the top 7-8 schools. I'm gunning for IM, and i know that only a handful of schools even get recruiting from the major IM players. This is the main reason why i'm not applying to the likes of stern/haas/anderson.

The two of you share a bunk or what?

Let me enlighten you two. I work at a HF. I don't have an MBA nor did I go to a IVY for UG. I didn't even go to a school that had OCR for the finance industry unless you count retirement advisor funds. Your school is not as important as you make it out to be. If you want to work at KKR sure its important, however there are thousands of firms out there that are just as interesting to work at and have much better cultures then the banks you to have wet dreams over.

Sure, there are plenty of people who don't have great pedigree who work at hedge funds, in all capacity. There are several thousand funds out there. I work at a fund that was ranked by barron's as one of the top 100 best performing funds, but I'm dying to get out for a number of reasons. And given my desire to go from quant equity trading to investment management, that will be virtually impossible to accomplish without a top MBA. If you managed to get your dream job without a top degree, then more power to you.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:

I'm a lot older than you. Can't afford to "not give a fuck."

Fair point, I'm not suggesting that you do this all the time or even most of the time. But every once in a while you just have to say "fuck it" and do whatever you feel like doing that instant.

Brady4MVP:

But every time i've tried to not think about b-school it always comes up. Like yesterday i was at work and got an e-mail from a friend who got off the wharton waitlist. I felt so emotional about not being there that i had to excuse myself from the desk to get composed. Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

I know this sounds corny, but live in the moment. If you're not in business school or not working on your application try to keep it out of your head. Maybe this doesn't work for you, but I've never really planned concretely more than 2 years ahead so your way of thinking is a bit alien to me.

Don't mean to offend you and hope I haven't

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:

Going from booth to jefferies would really fucking suck.

Your impression of this will change greatly once you are actually in business school. This might be the dumbest thing I've seen posted here in quite some time. Business school is not WSO.

In reply to illiniPride
1/13/12
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:

I'm a lot older than you. Can't afford to "not give a fuck."

Fair point, I'm not suggesting that you do this all the time or even most of the time. But every once in a while you just have to say "fuck it" and do whatever you feel like doing that instant.

Brady4MVP:

But every time i've tried to not think about b-school it always comes up. Like yesterday i was at work and got an e-mail from a friend who got off the wharton waitlist. I felt so emotional about not being there that i had to excuse myself from the desk to get composed. Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

I know this sounds corny, but live in the moment. If you're not in business school or not working on your application try to keep it out of your head. Maybe this doesn't work for you, but I've never really planned concretely more than 2 years ahead so your way of thinking is a bit alien to me.

Don't mean to offend you and hope I haven't

No, you did not offend me at all. I appreciate your candor. I totally see your point, but i'm just different from a lot of people when it comes to stuff like this.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:

I'm a lot older than you. Can't afford to "not give a fuck."

Fair point, I'm not suggesting that you do this all the time or even most of the time. But every once in a while you just have to say "fuck it" and do whatever you feel like doing that instant.

Brady4MVP:

But every time i've tried to not think about b-school it always comes up. Like yesterday i was at work and got an e-mail from a friend who got off the wharton waitlist. I felt so emotional about not being there that i had to excuse myself from the desk to get composed. Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

I know this sounds corny, but live in the moment. If you're not in business school or not working on your application try to keep it out of your head. Maybe this doesn't work for you, but I've never really planned concretely more than 2 years ahead so your way of thinking is a bit alien to me.

Don't mean to offend you and hope I haven't

No, you did not offend me at all. I appreciate your candor. I totally see your point, but i'm just different from a lot of people when it comes to stuff like this.

We know you are different, your the only person I know that jacks off to the Harvard coat of arms.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

1/13/12

if i had any SBs id give you one lmao

In reply to heister
1/13/12
heister:
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:

I'm a lot older than you. Can't afford to "not give a fuck."

Fair point, I'm not suggesting that you do this all the time or even most of the time. But every once in a while you just have to say "fuck it" and do whatever you feel like doing that instant.

Brady4MVP:

But every time i've tried to not think about b-school it always comes up. Like yesterday i was at work and got an e-mail from a friend who got off the wharton waitlist. I felt so emotional about not being there that i had to excuse myself from the desk to get composed. Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

I know this sounds corny, but live in the moment. If you're not in business school or not working on your application try to keep it out of your head. Maybe this doesn't work for you, but I've never really planned concretely more than 2 years ahead so your way of thinking is a bit alien to me.

Don't mean to offend you and hope I haven't

No, you did not offend me at all. I appreciate your candor. I totally see your point, but i'm just different from a lot of people when it comes to stuff like this.

We know you are different, your the only person I know that jacks off to the Harvard coat of arms.

Haha. Virtually everyone on WSO, including yourself, would go to HBS if given the chance. To say otherwise would just be a lie.

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/13/12
Brady4MVP:
heister:
Brady4MVP:
illiniPride:
Brady4MVP:

I'm a lot older than you. Can't afford to "not give a fuck."

Fair point, I'm not suggesting that you do this all the time or even most of the time. But every once in a while you just have to say "fuck it" and do whatever you feel like doing that instant.

Brady4MVP:

But every time i've tried to not think about b-school it always comes up. Like yesterday i was at work and got an e-mail from a friend who got off the wharton waitlist. I felt so emotional about not being there that i had to excuse myself from the desk to get composed. Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

I know this sounds corny, but live in the moment. If you're not in business school or not working on your application try to keep it out of your head. Maybe this doesn't work for you, but I've never really planned concretely more than 2 years ahead so your way of thinking is a bit alien to me.

Don't mean to offend you and hope I haven't

No, you did not offend me at all. I appreciate your candor. I totally see your point, but i'm just different from a lot of people when it comes to stuff like this.

We know you are different, your the only person I know that jacks off to the Harvard coat of arms.

Haha. Virtually everyone on WSO, including yourself, would go to HBS if given the chance. To say otherwise would just be a lie.

Honestly given my dream to open a brewery I would pass. I am considering HES simply for the experience. Granted our situations are entirely different. But like other posters have said you need to enjoy life. You only live once and in the grand scheme of things life is very short. I'm going to retire shortly after my 26th birthday. Granted I will still be working however since I will be following my passion I don't consider it work.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to shorttheworld
1/13/12
shorttheworld:

I cant comment on UNC but Ive heard some strong things about them although they have to compete with Duke and maybe Emory regionally and then for NYC things get much tougher. But in terms if Texas, UT has the best energy finance program. If you want to do energy finance in Houston, youre better off going to UT or Rice. Houston is not dominated by Ivy leaguers and is quite the opposite with most guys being from UT, A&M, Rice as the top schools who quite honestly would rather higher a smart state school kid from Texas than a yacht warrior New Englander who went to Philips. The other beauty about McCombs is that if you are a solid candidate from out of state who plans to stay in state after graduating ie energy finance, they're pretty liberal to give you an instate waiver -- bringing it from 50k to 30k a year for tuition. Couple that with Texas as a place to live after has solid eco growth, low taxes and much cheaper RE andTONS of latinas = winwinwin. Sure it doesnt place a ton of in New York but unless you have a hard on for NYC, who the fuck cares? They still dominate energy banking -- consulting sure could be stronger but Deloitte is still strong even though it isnt MBB, and you can stay in Austin after to live and work. Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio are all very solid cities and LOTS of tech opening up in Austin. If you want to live in a warm climate low tax state, especially if you want to do energy finance, then UT is top tier -- even for the supermajors rotational programs McCombs has kids going in competing against M7s. Dream job for me would be working at DFA in Austin. fapfapfapfpafpafpap

Disclaimer: Austin gives me a hard on. huge fucking chubber.

Open up a prop shop in Austin. I can imagine there would be absurd interest.

1/14/12

Kershner :) already is one

In reply to CompBanker
1/14/12

As usual, Compbanker delivers some of the best insight.

I'd like to add that I know plenty of smart people - folks who went to top 20 undergrads and got higher GMATs than a lot of WSO monkeys (including some on this thread) - who are at b-schools barely in the top 20 or well outside them. In most cases, they just didn't take a corporate track or just didn't have what the Sweet Sixteen were looking for, but they aren't people you'd really look down on. If you're a smart person who's been shafted by the underperformimg economy, luck is hard to come by. So a top 50 b-school that enables someone who's jobless or in a dead-end job to enter the corporate track is definitely a good investment. If you make between $0-30,000 and have no transferrable skills or experience on your resume, going to Georgetown, Rochester Simon, Thunderbird, Ohio State-Fisher, Pepperdine Graziadio etc will get you a $70,000 corporate job which sure, can't compare to Bain or Apple Strategy or Morgan Stanley M&A etc, but definitely catapults you.

For those who want to regulate b-school tuition, that's retarded. Go join OWS if that's how you think. There is more than enough public information available for candidates for us to trust the S&D dynamics of this market.

As for me, personally, I can answer this question with my track record. I am looking to finance the MBA myself, and while in an ideal world, I'd be surrounded by great peers, have social options, amazing OCR to get my dream job, and a great brand (ie Top 5) - and indeed, the only non Top 5 schools that truly attracted me were CBS and Haas - I knew that for the MBA to be *worth it*, I didn't need perfection.

Instead, I concluded that I needed something that had a solid gateway to BB IBD, MC and corporate functions at F500 (the career options were sine qua non) and simply a non-controversial brand my resume to keep it competitive and flexible in the future. That school was Cornell Johnson, which I applied to as my safety that gets the job done, no bells or whistles. I got in with $, and while I would not have been thrilled to attend, I would have been willing. I won't be attending.

I've tried to answer with as much candor and equanimity as I could.

CompBanker:

I wouldn't expect everyone to answer this question the same -- we all have different situations that could benefit differently from different MBA programs. While I definitely hope to get an education out of an MBA, the network and brand name will likely have a much greater influence on my career. Given I'll be paying for my MBA out of pocket and the opportunity cost is high, I'll likely draw the line at the Top 5 or Top 7 schools.

That said, I can see how others may be completely justified in attending a Top 20 or a Top 50 school. There are legions of Fortune 1000 employees out there trying to advance in their careers. It isn't uncommon for an employer to offer promotions or pay bumps to employees who obtain their MBA. Furthermore, most Fortune 1000 companies have education reimbursement policies that reduce the cost of school, and some out-right pay for it. This can be a no-brainer for your average back office employee -- they don't even care about the network nor the on campus recruiting. As for the prestige factor, it's all relative. The finance support staff at a random Fortune 1000 company may think that BC/BU/Babson's MBA programs are top notch and look highly at those degree holders. Sure, HBS will always be a far cry ahead, but that doesn't mean every other school is worthless.

You also need to take into consideration an entirely different market -- the career changers. For many folks, their only shot of getting a job in a business discipline is through an MBA program. Maybe they are stuck in some dead-end job as a waitress because they chose to major in underwater basket-weaving. Whatever the case, a Top 50 MBA could be their path to a corporate job that offers more job security, stable pay, and higher earnings potential. For these people, the $100K cost may be worth it in the long run (and maybe it won't).

Sure, it doesn't make as much sense for someone who is looking to break into IB to go to a top 50, but that doesn't mean these schools don't serve a purpose. There will be people who attend MBA programs and will find they wasted $100K. There will be others that attend the same programs and go on to make tremendous money that more than justifies the cost. The world has winners and losers, and MBA students are no exception, regardless of which program they attend.

In reply to Sexy_Like_Enrique
1/14/12
Sexy_Like_Enrique:
UFOinsider:
Sexy_Like_Enrique:

One guy I know from my high school was about to attend MBA at a tier two state school, paying shit load of money. When I asked him if he thought that was a good investment idea or not, he replied: "where you go to school doesn't matter. what matters is your personal character and your effort." I've known too far many people who have this kind of mentality and willing to go attend some horseshit schools for MBA or law schools, paying insane amounts of money.

Coming from a guy who went to a state school and busted his ass to find a job, speaking to a guy going to an ivy who made no effort: this is an absurd asessment. As long as we're not talking an MBA from bumfuck community college, a lot of those schools do just fine. For finance, yes, certain schools serve as recruiting pipelines so you want to go there.

But as for your argument that the government should regulate what schools do what: that's a whole different topic and has been covered in many threads here.

As for what school: top 20 for me. If I kill the GMAT, this becomes [hopefully] top ten. I have a shitty ugrad GPA that's going to be a weight around my neck, so I can't realistically think HBS/Standford but I'm still going to apply.

What I have problem with is the fact that lower-ranked schools, including MBA, law schools, and what not, charge almost identical amount of tuition as Harvard or Stanford, and this is just wrong.

If someone pays 70k to buy a Honda Civic, when that individual could buy a Porsche with that money, this is market failure and consumers are getting shit on. When Purdue MBA charges you 70k a year and Harvard/ Wharton tuition are the same, we know something is wrong with the system. I think both schools (MBA) and consumers (students who go to low ranked MBA) are both to blame, but it would be nice if it becomes ILLEGAL that a horseshit MBA school charges anything more than 30k a year for tuition, because their value doesn't justify their price tag.

If the market functions properly, no way should this become illegal. If consumers decide a lower (i.e. Purdue) MBA is worth less, they will pay less. If not, so be it. Trying to control markets is the utmost of arrogance and stupidity.

In reply to shorttheworld
1/14/12
shorttheworld:

Kershner :) already is one

I had a interview there, when I offered to put up several million of my own money into the firm. I didn't feel like I fit in well there. The interviewer I got was rather stuck up about my GPA even though I got a 4.0 in every trading oriented class I took. ECM, Options, and a Bond and deriverative markets class. Anyway it just didnt seem like a place where I wanted to work so I told the guy thanks for his time and left.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

1/14/12

How can you idiots claim it is just the market at work? You realize that tuitions are only as high as they are because they are backed by government supported loans and the debt is not dissolved in bankruptcy? This massively inflates the prices all institutions can charge and leaves few to no alternatives. The system is broke and bankrupting our peers with lifelong debt loads.

1/14/12

I'd only pay out of pocket for Harvard or Stanford, and maybe Wharton or LBS. Columbia with its value investing center would also merit consideration.

Nevertheless, even for the fabled HBS, I still don't think I would do it. The cost is just too high, and there is no guarantee that you will have a job you like more at the other end. Think of the guys who went to Bschool in '08, thinking the economy would have recovered by the time they graduated.

I think the days of the MBA being required for advancement are waning. It will always help you change career tracks, or make up for an off-brand undergrad. I don't think it will make sense if you are leaving a finance job only to return to finance.

1/14/12

The thing many of you are forgetting is that there is a thing called sponsored students.

Follow the shit your fellow monkeys say @shitWSOsays

Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid - John Wayne

In reply to heister
1/14/12
heister:

The thing many of you are forgetting is that there is a thing called sponsored students.

Yep, for those guys its a 2 year vacation. Not many finance firms will do that though.

1/14/12

ahh thats interesting i was reading they dont take capital? hrrrrrm

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/14/12
Brady4MVP:
shorttheworld:

fuqua is a target for mckinsey :> and i think BCG is making them one as well. fuqua does very well in consulting for MBB, ross does decent...

for banking anything top 16 is fine.. i really think its more 'top 8' and then a distinction between the top 16 with UT thrown in because UT crushes it in texas and gets really solid jobs and tuck gets all the MBB, IBD, and has a very strong PE program and has investment management-- not HFs

if you want to do investment banking im kind of sure it doesnt matter if youre at HBS or if youre at Fuqua -- okay sure you might get more of an auto in but any of the top 15 you have a really solid chance at it -- i know guys from chicago who went to jefferies so its not like all BB go to the big top schools and then its only MM and jt marlin for non top 8

By target, you mean MBB visits fuqua and does on-campus recruiting. But if i'm not mistaken they don't give out that many offers, so the competition will be a nightmare.

Going from booth to jefferies would really fucking suck.

Dude, I'm fairly certain that most of the top programs have a very similar placement for consulting as a whole. Of course Harvard is going to have more offers, but it also has 2x-4x as many students as many other programs, so on a percentage basis, I think a school like Fuqua would be similar. Ultimately fewer spots, but also fewer students trying to get those spots. Similar thing with Darden. Maybe Darden just breaks down their employment statistics further, but at first glance they have a smaller percentage of people that go into consulting and banking as compared to Harvard...so it appears that Darden students goes into a wider variety of fields when compared to Harvard students. Logically, one could assume that less kids, looking at more options would provide you with a better chance of getting to the place you wanted to be. I don't know if there is a hard cap for MBB and that they only hire 7 people from this campus and 12 from another, but it seems to me if you think you would be competitive at a top 7 school, you could be ultra competitive at a top 15. In some ways, statistically speaking, you might be better off at a Darden or a Fuqua as compared to Harvard. Last year, from Fuqua, McKinsey hired 15, BCG hired 14 and Bain hired 7...that's out of about 400 students. Not sure what Harvard is because I didn't see a firm-by-firm breakdown but Harvard has 900+ students. Just food for thought.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

In reply to Brady4MVP
1/14/12
Brady4MVP:

...Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

Brady, please read through the quote above a couple times. I know a lot of people give you a hard time about being a homer for HBS, but geez...when you write stuff like that, you just look like you are trolling, hard.

I understand the over analysis situation you are in...I'm the same way...but you really need to try and let some of that go. I have been so focused on what my next job/step is, that I was failing to enjoy my current situation. Business school can be fun, but there isn't a single student that I've talked to that hasn't talked about how much effort they put in and how stressful it is during the week. Most of the people I know don't party all week, they are bouncing between classes, learning groups and organized social/recruiting events...all stuff they consider work.

I assume that you work M-F and have the weekends off...how is this any different from what you have now, that you aren't enjoying? Granted you will be surrounding by like-minded, motivated people, but you can find that in the place you are now. Maybe you are like me and have no other analysts in your office...so it's not as easy to make friends...but might I suggest just reaching out to people? If memory serves, you are in Chicago right? A huge city. Make a post here on WSO about Chicago and meet up with some members. I did the same thing when I moved to Atlanta and I have people I would have otherwise never known that I grab drinks and/or dinner with occasionally.

I know you aren't here to be lectured, so I do apologize. I just want to provide some insight from my experience that may be relevant to yours. My point is, you have money and a good/decent job...there is very little you can do in an MBA program that you can't do right now. Your life is as good as you want it to be and that is a direct result of the friends you surround yourself with. Just be proactive about finding some good friends and enjoy what you have. That, of course, doesn't mean you shouldn't go back to school, but realize that most people I know are stressed out about class, recruiting and finding a job...so life isn't as great as you make it out to be. Maybe the people you know are 2nd years so they have FT position secured already, at which point I'm sure life because an extended vacation...but don't forget there will absolutely be work and stress involved in your bschool experience and it isn't all about jet setting and blowjobs.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

In reply to Jerome Marrow
1/14/12
Jerome Marrow:

How can you idiots claim it is just the market at work? You realize that tuitions are only as high as they are because they are backed by government supported loans and the debt is not dissolved in bankruptcy? This massively inflates the prices all institutions can charge and leaves few to no alternatives. The system is broke and bankrupting our peers with lifelong debt loads.

This.

It's not just supply and demand that dictate the tuition price level. Talking about supply, there are hundreds of MBA programs. There are plenty of seats in MBA.

The key thing is 1) there is no regulation policing the ceiling of MBA price level, 2) Government-backed loans are supplied to anyone who wants to attend law school or MBA, at out-of-control level, hence enabling schools (MBA or law school) to jack up their prices as high as they want, 3) schools are taking advantage of this 'myth' that going to MBA will get you a nice cushy six figure job, hence making their education look like it's worth it despite a ridiculous price tag.

Also, talking about supply and demand, let's face it: there is far LESS supply of seats in medical schools, compared to MBA programs. Most of people who apply to medical schools get REJECTED from every single medical school they apply to. It's because they restrict the supply of newly minted doctors strictly, and seats for medical schools are severely limited. At the same time, cost of attendance for medical schools are almost SAME as MBA, which is fucking nuts and which demonstrates that it isn't just supply and demand issue that is dictating the level of tuition. Additionally, which program out of the two, medical school or MBA, do you think spends more money on its students and hence need to charge more tuition money? Educating a doctor costs much more money (labs, surgery equipment, etc) than this so-called 'masters of business administration' in which half the students never read a single book and get wasted like five times a week.

1/14/12

Med schools probably price where they do because that is highest amount they can charge without seeing a drop-off in the quality of their admits. But regardless, lets keep the discussion focused on MBA programs.

1) True there is no regulations placing a ceiling on tuition prices, but there are also no regulations placing a floor. I call that a wash

2) Government loans have the net effect of increasing demand by making the funds necessary to attend schools available for a large segment of the population.

3) Whatever "myth" there is about the value of an MBA has little to no effect on supply and would only serve to increase demand.

Your proposed solution to put a cap on the tuition cap on programs outside the top 15-20 would only serve to further increase demand for MBAs while capping the profits of the suppliers. The most likely net result is that new supply would come on line of lower quality to meet the increased demand at the lower prices. Welcome to the new for-profit education boom in online MBAs

Possible solutions I see to lower tuition prices for out of pocket payers are:
A) The removal of government subsidized loans.
B) The removal of specific corporate incentives to get an MBA (tuition reimbursement, automatic pay raises)

The most important dynamic I see in play here is that demand is much more elastic than supply and any proposed solution needs to acknowledge that.

Leadership can be defined in two words: "Follow Me"

In reply to illiniPride
1/14/12
illiniPride:

Med schools probably price where they do because that is highest amount they can charge without seeing a drop-off in the quality of their admits. But regardless, lets keep the discussion focused on MBA programs.

1) True there is no regulations placing a ceiling on tuition prices, but there are also no regulations placing a floor. I call that a wash

2) Government loans have the net effect of increasing demand by making the funds necessary to attend schools available for a large segment of the population.

3) Whatever "myth" there is about the value of an MBA has little to no effect on supply and would only serve to increase demand.

Your proposed solution to put a cap on the tuition cap on programs outside the top 15-20 would only serve to further increase demand for MBAs while capping the profits of the suppliers. The most likely net result is that new supply would come on line of lower quality to meet the increased demand at the lower prices. Welcome to the new for-profit education boom in online MBAs

Possible solutions I see to lower tuition prices for out of pocket payers are:
A) The removal of government subsidized loans.
B) The removal of specific corporate incentives to get an MBA (tuition reimbursement, automatic pay raises)

The most important dynamic I see in play here is that demand is much more elastic than supply and any proposed solution needs to acknowledge that.

If you made student loans more like a car loan or credit card debt, you certainly would not be seeing the high prices being as common. The government involvement at even the undergrad level is what has required people to get further advanced degrees to differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd and take on more debt. If the government simply got their nose out of the whole situation, education would be much more affordable at all levels. At this point, you must go to undergrad, which is incredibly expensive almost anywhere, and often must attend some form of graduate school for further advancement. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head for sure, but the government does make it unreasonably difficult for most people to get to more advanced levels without great levels of debt that they will carry for life because of the various regulations placed on student debt.

1/14/12

2nd the other Illini on this.

Anything but a top five school (Harvard/Chicago/Northwestern/Wharton/Stanford) isn't worth $150K and two years of your life. That said, if you can get in-state tuition and go part-time to, say, Baruch, UIC, or Haas, that could also be worth it, too. I just don't think $160K for an MBA from Columbia is worth it, though.

There's definitely a bubble in education.

In reply to Jerome Marrow
1/14/12
Jerome Marrow:
illiniPride:

Med schools probably price where they do because that is highest amount they can charge without seeing a drop-off in the quality of their admits. But regardless, lets keep the discussion focused on MBA programs.

1) True there is no regulations placing a ceiling on tuition prices, but there are also no regulations placing a floor. I call that a wash

2) Government loans have the net effect of increasing demand by making the funds necessary to attend schools available for a large segment of the population.

3) Whatever "myth" there is about the value of an MBA has little to no effect on supply and would only serve to increase demand.

Your proposed solution to put a cap on the tuition cap on programs outside the top 15-20 would only serve to further increase demand for MBAs while capping the profits of the suppliers. The most likely net result is that new supply would come on line of lower quality to meet the increased demand at the lower prices. Welcome to the new for-profit education boom in online MBAs

Possible solutions I see to lower tuition prices for out of pocket payers are:
A) The removal of government subsidized loans.
B) The removal of specific corporate incentives to get an MBA (tuition reimbursement, automatic pay raises)

The most important dynamic I see in play here is that demand is much more elastic than supply and any proposed solution needs to acknowledge that.

If you made student loans more like a car loan or credit card debt, you certainly would not be seeing the high prices being as common. The government involvement at even the undergrad level is what has required people to get further advanced degrees to differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd and take on more debt. If the government simply got their nose out of the whole situation, education would be much more affordable at all levels. At this point, you must go to undergrad, which is incredibly expensive almost anywhere, and often must attend some form of graduate school for further advancement. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone's head for sure, but the government does make it unreasonably difficult for most people to get to more advanced levels without great levels of debt that they will carry for life because of the various regulations placed on student debt.

I completely, 100% agree with this analysis. Really, cost of tuition even at UNDERGRAD level is insane, if you think about it. Government loans need reforms, and schools need to ask themselves if they are being ethical in jacking up the prices up to the level that we see today.

The reason I brought up medical school is that medical school is arguably only program that can justify its high price tag, for two reasons: 1) limited supply of seats in med school, 2) high cost of running med school and educating doctors.

MBA? come on. It just takes ONE fucking professor in front of like 400 students to lecture. No expensive equipment, no labs, none of that shit needed to run an MBA program. Yet, the asking price is 60-70k a year? This is nuts. You can buy a BMW M3 with one year of MBA tuition, and that's really fucked up if you think about it.

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
1/14/12
IlliniProgrammer:

2nd the other Illini on this.

Anything but a top five school (Harvard/Chicago/Northwestern/Wharton/Stanford) isn't worth $150K and two years of your life. That said, if you can get in-state tuition and go part-time to, say, Baruch, UIC, or Haas, that could also be worth it, too. I just don't think $160K for an MBA from Columbia is worth it, though.

There's definitely a bubble in education.

Most would actually consider Columbia to be at par, if not better than, Chicago and Kellogg.

1/14/12

Kyle Bass recruits SMU MBA students.

That is all.

In reply to cphbravo96
1/14/12
cphbravo96:
Brady4MVP:

...Or I would be at a bar, and it sucks, and i fantasize about the badass parties and travelling my hbs/wharton friends are doing.

Brady, please read through the quote above a couple times. I know a lot of people give you a hard time about being a homer for HBS, but geez...when you write stuff like that, you just look like you are trolling, hard.

I understand the over analysis situation you are in...I'm the same way...but you really need to try and let some of that go. I have been so focused on what my next job/step is, that I was failing to enjoy my current situation. Business school can be fun, but there isn't a single student that I've talked to that hasn't talked about how much effort they put in and how stressful it is during the week. Most of the people I know don't party all week, they are bouncing between classes, learning groups and organized social/recruiting events...all stuff they consider work.

I assume that you work M-F and have the weekends off...how is this any different from what you have now, that you aren't enjoying? Granted you will be surrounding by like-minded, motivated people, but you can find that in the place you are now. Maybe you are like me and have no other analysts in your office...so it's not as easy to make friends...but might I suggest just reaching out to people? If memory serves, you are in Chicago right? A huge city. Make a post here on WSO about Chicago and meet up with some members. I did the same thing when I moved to Atlanta and I have people I would have otherwise never known that I grab drinks and/or dinner with occasionally.

I know you aren't here to be lectured, so I do apologize. I just want to provide some insight from my experience that may be relevant to yours. My point is, you have money and a good/decent job...there is very little you can do in an MBA program that you can't do right now. Your life is as good as you want it to be and that is a direct result of the friends you surround yourself with. Just be proactive about finding some good friends and enjoy what you have. That, of course, doesn't mean you shouldn't go back to school, but realize that most people I know are stressed out about class, recruiting and finding a job...so life isn't as great as you make it out to be. Maybe the people you know are 2nd years so they have FT position secured already, at which point I'm sure life because an extended vacation...but don't forget there will absolutely be work and stress involved in your bschool experience and it isn't all about jet setting and blowjobs.

Regards

Thanks for your honest and thoughtful response. I totally realize that b-school is a lot of work. But for me, the type of work is joyful because it will directly advance my professional and social goals, and everything i'm doing is for myself, rather than doing shit for my boss. It would actually represent freedom from the quasi-slavery of corporate life.

1/14/12

Everyone talks about M7 or top 5 or HSW or whatever, but do people not value Tuck that highly? I'm not applying to schools yet so haven't done a ton of research, but on the surface I thought Tuck sounded like a pretty interesting place and somewhat undervalued on WSO for some reason.

Hi, Eric Stratton, rush chairman, damn glad to meet you.

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