What offers would you take over a BB S&T?

Got a junior SA offer from a BB. I don’t think I would choose any other S&T BBS over this one I have, but I am still open to options and willing to explore. Jc, what kind of offers would you guys choose over this? going directly into HF/PE/maybe even BB IBs? Are the exit for S&T that bad? what do people do after two years?

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Honestly strongly disagree with this. Transferring from S&T to IB is very difficult even from the same bank. Personally have seen way more people lateral from MM IB to BB/EB IB than S&T to IB even though most of the people I know in S&T were trying. Additionally I'd add that the S&T interview process at my target school was basically just cold apply while even MM IBD was pretty rigorous.

 

IB and S&T are two completely different fields. Do you prefer working on long-term projects or something a little more fast-paced? It's a question of do you want to do IB or S&T, nothing to do with the bank. There are some good threads about IB vs S&T on this site that I would suggest taking a look at. Think about fit rather than prestige as these fields are very different and you don't want to be disappointed when you hit the desk.

 

I much prefer working in S&T both because 1. I am more of a macro person 2. snt seems to have more meriotocracy bc you'll be handling ur own P&L 3. can be more quantitative. My only concern with snt vs. ib is the exit opps. What desks on snt have better exits? What's recruiting like from snt to HF/PE? Thank u! much appreciated!

 

Also just bc it's BB S&T doesn't mean it's a good desk, like UBS S&T wouldn't be a good place to be at compared to potentially some MM S&T desks (ex. Jefferies, Wells, Macquarie). Take into account that S&T at banks are also desk dependent, so some desks may be stronger than others depending on the bank. Also, do you want to do IB or S&T? If you really want to do S&T, your bank may be a good place to be at or it may not.

 

True but those 3 firms are stronger than UBS in investment banking as well - UBS is just really weak all around.

 

Everyone on this site just sucks off IB->PE route. Do what suits your skills, what you enjoy, what you want long term. If you’re truly good at what you’ll do you’ll be 10x more successful than a mediocre IB guy who tries for PE just because everyone else does. The IB-> PE path is not OSFA.

I would call up some alum/connects to seek advice rather than listen to these prestige-thirsty undergrad idiots

 
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I’ll try to address your concerns but for a more wholistic view read my long-ass post here

  1. Is literally anything better than BBST? long story short: no, not even close. One of the few fallacies of this website is that everyone is convinced they can (and will) go H/Y/P/S undergrad -> Top 3 BB IBD -> H/S/W MBA -> Apollo/KKR -> Master of the universe. Some will, but these will be the top 5-10% of an already extremely exclusive subset of society. The vast majority are incapable of following this path and most wont even stick it out past their analyst/associate years. Do what you like and not what other people tell you you should like. And no, it is not “easier to get into S&T than IBD”, it just comes down to your strengths so congrats on your offer.

  2. What about going to the buyside? If you can get a buyside offer as an internship or right out of undergrad you can get one after 1-2 years on the sellside. The difference is that you’ll then be getting there with training imparted by a company that routinely takes on hundreds of juniors every year and knows how to train them and you’ll also have a great network of similarly aged people who you can become close with and continue to network with. You won’t get that if you skip the sellside.

  3. What about doing IBD instead? I guess you could but considering it is now May you’re probably too late now to get an offer for this summer. If we’re talking 2021 then I guess you have time. Still, I’d say do this internship first, see if you like it and then get an offer. Why? Because if you realize you don’t like it you have 3 months to network with the area of the bank you’d actually like to join while actually being in their offices. If you do like it then happy days, no more wrecking your brain about what to do. By the way you’ve described it I would assume you’ve got an offer from GS/JPM/MS, perhaps Citi or BAML. Guess what, overall they have better ER and IBD desks than the other lower tier BBs and MMs. So imagine this: you decide you don’t want to do S&T before your internship so you go out an get yourself an MM IBD offer. Turns out IBD makes you miserable and you’d have rathered do S&T instead. Now you’re both in the wrong division and you turned down a BB to go to an MM. Instead you should have stuck with your BBST offer, because if it you didn’t like S&T you could at least try to move internally at an already better institution.

  4. What do people do after 2-3 years? Literally anything, those who are good enough get to the buyside (admittedly not PE because it has nothing to do with your skill set and you should probably rule that out as an interest just because it is so different), others move internally (plenty of rotation among the three divisions between analyst and associate years), graduate school, decide they’re in this for the long run or drop out entirely.

  5. I know this question is coming so I guess I’ll just tell you now: I’m currently at top 5 desk for my product as a third year analyst. I didn’t recruit for the buyside because it simply didn’t interest me and I wanted to get good at what I do first. My plans are to either move internally in a year or two to a capital markets desk or strategy role as an associate, I am lucky my bank is quite good at both those things. If I get bored or can’t find exactly what I want in a role I’ll probably go get an MBA if I can get into a top15 global school. From there I’ll see what’s open to me and decide that way.

 

I've never heard of anyone in S&T (for seniority ranging from Analyst 1 to Associate 3) getting less than 60% of base as a bonus and apart for Analyst 1, when it did happen i'm pretty sure it was due to poor performance by the employee. Which from what I've seen is bang inline with what IBD gets. 2020 will be different though. I assume IBD will be hit harder than S&T all else equal but the overall payout will still fall. Keep in mind most places have standardized bonus ranges for analysts and associates across divisions so unless you're bad at your job AND you're on a bad desk AND its a bad year overall you're not going to see massive discrepancies across the board. Biggest difference between top bucket across two different divisions that I've heard was 10k so not exactly massive and it really depends on the desk's yearly performance. TL;DR if you're good at your job you will get paid regardless of your division

 

Thank you so much for the very helpful insights! For buyside opportunities, what kind of companies should I be looking at? I have a couple HFs/prop shops in mind that I might try recruit for. What are the risks and returns? I have heard HFs cut lots of people within the first few months and I def don't wanna end up in a situation like that because then I'll be off the recruiting cycle. At the same time, if I want to eventually end up in a HF/prop shop, why don't I start my career right off from there instead of training at the sell side for two years?

 

Well if you really wanted to go straight to the buyside then I would target the big names (read: big, not necessarily the prestigious) like Fidelity/FMR/Alliance Bernstein/T-Rowe etc because chances are they'll have a more structured program. Note that I don't know if these actually have internship programs. I wouldn't go hardcore prop-shop out of undergrad like Jane street or Flow Traders, especially if you're sitting on a BBST offer.

Risks:

  1. Like I said, you miss out on the whole "class of 2020 summer interns". Think about it, half of any high finance role is about how good your network is, both in terms of who you can eventually call on to help you and who you'll eventually find out is now a potential client. Plus it'll just make the job much more enjoyable if you actually have friends. Why would you pass this possibility up just to be able to say you interned at Fidelity instead of JPM? guess what, most people outside of Finance won't know Fidelity (let alone places like Marshall Wace/KKR etc) but they will know JPM. And again, if there's one thing the banks know how to do is give you a solid intern/analyst experience in terms of socializing and learning. Its a bit like skipping your undergrad degree and going straight for a master's. Sure on one hand you can say you skipped the intro/training years but on the other hand i think you'll be less prepared and secondly why be stuck with an older cohort of colleagues with whom you'll have nothing in common? If we're talking more "premium shops" (if these even offer undergrad internships....) like AQR/Marshall Wace then yes you could say learning opps benefits could outweigh the social aspect of sellside internship class but i still wouldn't do it. Why would you want to know 2 kids in finance when you can get to know 200?

  2. You don't like it. Ok now what? back to square one and at this point you're applying for FT positions on the sellside except there's FAR fewer spots than there were for the internships and you're competing with kids that have relevant experience

  3. Like I mentioned earlier, the banks have much more recognizable names than funds. Meaning a Goldman Sachs analyst who decides to completely leave finance will have a better brand name on his CV than you do eventhough you worked at Apollo for 2 years. People outside of finance don't know Apollo/AQR/Blackstone

Rewards:

  1. OK you go straight to the buyside and you love it. Cool, this is your blue sky scenario, perhaps you become a PM quicker than someone who started off at a sellside but I don't really buy it for two reasons. 1) if you start at a large fund with an internship program chances are they won't give you seniority as an internal promotion over someone they bring in from bank who has your same experience 2) on the buyside its performance that counts, not years of experience. If you want to be a young PM it certainly wont happen at the places that have internships for undergrads. It'll have to be at places with lean hierarchy where you can shine
 

@FaberGrad Thank you so much for your insights on this subject, I really appreciate it!

 

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