Getting into Finance with an irrelevant degree
Hey guys,
I am new to WSO and I hope to get for some advice for a problem that kept me concerned for quite some time. I am appliying to some smaller fund management firms to gain professionel experience in finance because this is the work I want to do in long term. My issue is that I come with another background different from finance (I did psychology bachelors and masters). Any suggestions how to cope with those irrelevant degrees in a cv?
So sometimes I hear recruiters from certain banks saying its not a formal requirement having graduated from business, finance or banking, but I still get my applications rejected at major institutions and the reason seems quite obvious to me.
So comes anyone else here with a similar issue? How do you introduce and present yourself then? I started with the CFA, currently aiming to take the L1 exam in december, because I believe it's my best chance for long term but I doubt it helps a lot at present moment.
Many thanks for any advice,
Larry
I too come from a non-finance degree field--and I can tell you from first hand experience this does not cast you out from all areas of finance. That being said, you are going to have to work harder and smarter than the guy who already has his credentials. That's part of the fun though--to me there is a real sense of accomplishment going up against others who have a degree (B.S./M.S./MBA etc.) The degree doesn't make the man.
You have to make sure that you are ready to read more, commit more time to the office, study harder, and sacrifice more time than others around you. If you're serious about breaking in, it can be done--it will just require you to know that you will have to dig deep to get in. I started out as a client service rep at a small mutual fund shop. It was literally a call center where I dealt with everyone from irate FA's to little old ladies wondering why they were paying fees on their accounts. I knew it wasn't my perfect job; however, during that time I got my basic licenses (7 and 66) within the first 3 months of being on the job...people had been sitting on the desk content with their series 6 for 3 years. This caught the eye of management and within the first 6 months they moved me to internal sales. From there I networked with PM's and analysts on both the fixed income and equity teams. Any spare moment they had I would try to pick their brains and gather their advice. I listened to them diligently and tried to incorporate key pieces of advice into my career plan. I decided from their to take on the CFA in the hopes of gaining some more analytical insight and hopefully make myself a more attractive candidate for an analyst position. Remember that I had no experience in accounting, never took a stat or calc class, and knew the basics of capital markets and most financial asset classes. I studied my ass off for 5 months giving up nights and weekends while working full time. The result...FAIL...score band 10. But I didn't give up. I studied the next few months and passed the December CFA exam easily and just recently sat for level 2. I also started as an analyst at a BB and continue to push myself through the uncomfortable process of learning things I never thought I could.
Bottom line, yes you can break into finance. It will be hard, it may not be fun at first, your first job may be in a call center, but it can and will get better. It's worth the try and work if this is the world you want to be in.
Awesome post! I love when people post their fail-to-success stories. There are too many kids here talking about their target schools, GPAs, GMAT, etc. I want to hear more of the "I failed [school/CFA] (or was born a crack baby) and now I am MD" stories. Those are the inspirational stories!
Damn it! How'd you know I was a crack baby?!?!?
Where are you from, Larry? Are you still interested in psychology? Maybe behavioral finance is a path for you. At least I think it's interesting!
Breaking into trading from non-finance background (Originally Posted: 07/08/2007)
Is it harder or easier to break into ibanking or trading with a non-finance background? I have always heard that banks will hire any major for ibanking, and am not sure if this also applies to trading. In other words, would I be more likely to receive technical questions in a S&T interview or a ibanking interview?
I am studying engineering at a target school with a 4.0 major GPA and >3.9 overall GPA. I am interning right now with Goldman Sachs in a back-office position. I dream however, of trading, and want to set myself up for the best chance. In my experience with ibanking interviews, I have not been grilled to badly on finance questions considering my background. If this means I should go for ibanking, then go for business school, then transition into trading, then I will do that. Preferably I would like to go straight to a desk and I am hoping I can leverage my GS summer analyst position to achieve my dream.
Another question... everyone seems to say FICC is better. I feel like I am more interested in equities, but perhaps only because I like volatility and don't know much about FICC. My eventual goal would be prop trading exotics--would equities be a better track? Considering my lack of financial background, would one interview perhaps be more difficult?
I know this is very subjective, and can only be answered generally, but seriously, anything advice helps. I can provide more background if needed.
where, exactly, do you go to school? with your academic credentials (in engineering no less) , i can't imagine that you would have any trouble getting hired.
goldman has a program that allows summer interns to apply to other divisions (like S&T and IBD). just make sure you get really good reviews from your current managers.
i'm in the same situation, but will be a junior, so i am looking at next summer for S&T.
you mean internal (im)mobility? lol
you're actually at an advantage for trading. ibanking may be a different story. i know that UBS actively hires engineers for trading.
wow, 3.9 from a target in engineering and in the back office - fuck.
CD trading is FULL of engineers.
What is CD trading?
Also, just to make sure, what is considered a "target school"? Is there a list of schools somewhere? I just assumed I am at a target school, because GS came to the school and recruited and held 1st round interviews at the school.
Lastly, to the person that said I might not have as good a shot in ibanking... I thought that ibanking recruits all majors (philosophy. english, etc) and S&T would require more hardcore financial background and knowledge of the markets... any other opinions on this?
CD trading= collateralized debt obligation (CDO) trading....google CDOs to find out more
target schools are generally schools recruited at by all major banks ivies minus brown , stanford, mit, nyu stern, umich, uva, duke, etc.
s&T def has a lot of ppl w. 0 finance background..ive seen history, psychology as well as many kids from ivies with econ or even less finance related majors
'If this means I should go for ibanking, then go for business school, then transition into trading, then I will do that.'
This doesn't really make sense at all, unless you are interesting a long-term investing role at a buy-side hedge fund. From the sounds of it, you are interested in a market-making role. You can start out directly at a sell-side bank to do this. Just say your interests are in S&T and not in IBD.
Also, you say your eventual goal would be prop trading exotics (hmm, why exotics?) - there are many firms like Jane Street Capital, SIG, DRW, etc. that focus on this type of stuff and actively recruit people from quantitative backgrounds. I would just jump right into these as they don't require any prior trading / financial background and get train you from the grounds up. SIG has a particularly good training program in which you actually have class / homework and play poker.
Doesn't matter what your GPA is. To get into Trading you need a "Track Record", to show that you can make money trading. Prop trading firms & hedge funds won't hire you just because you have Double PHD's with 4.0 GPA. You need a Track record of your trading "Trade-by-Trade". Start trading and build-up your track record and when you goto the interview show them your track record. They will hire you.
This is rich.
Try telling any halfway decent market making shop to hire you based just on your questionably scalable, likely latency-insensitive strategies that are also purely directional to take you based on your P/L.
The irony is they routinely talk to PhD's with 4.0 GPAs, but I have yet to see a firm even expect a candidate to know what a security is when they enter the interview.
Disclaimer: I work in NOVA (Northern Virginia) Not wall street
I graduated with an English literature degree with a 2.7 GPA. Got a job selling software at a midsize company outside of DC and killed it for my first 18 months. I was than hired by a FX firm doing corporate FX sales and hedging (basically making tons and tons of cold calls). While I can't really speak to how your trying to break in (which does beg the question why am I posting) I can say that come hell or high waters you can always get a job in selling something and than sneak in through the back door. I'm sure with your education and credentials even if you can't get in straight out of school you'll be given a chance at something sooner or later if you can prove that you can sell.
Even I was not much aware when I started...just go through all the relevant readings, start investing in small cap. It will help you to get the things
What StreetSweeper said is exactly spot on (and I laugh at how similar our paths were). I graduated with a Biology degree, transitioned to operations/client services, and then became an Internal Wholesaler. I currently work in Private Equity. You can read more about my career path in the topic I posted in the forum entitled "Never, ever, ever, give up".
Advice for New Guy from Non-Finance Background (Originally Posted: 02/19/2014)
I know that it can be annoying for complete finance novices to pop up on this forum and start asking stupid questions, so I've done my best to try to only ask the ones that I can't figure out from what's on the forums already.
I'm a second semester senior at a semi-target school. I majored in math and chemistry with a minor in legal studies because I had no idea what I wanted to do career-wise, so I figured I'd make sure I could write and do good quantitative work to keep my options open. In the fall, I applied to about three random jobs that looked interesting from my school's career site mostly on a whim (because I hadn't figured out what I wanted to do yet, and so applying for jobs seriously felt like putting the cart before the horse). One of them was a back office risk analyst job at BlackRock and I got a second round interview. I didn't make it past that round, but it got me reading up about finance, and in the couple of months that have followed, I've found myself researching various parts of the finance industry for about an hour per day on average. I realized by the amount of fun I've been having (understand that I'm coming from chemistry) that I think I've finally figured out what I'd like to do.
In particular, I've come to the conclusion that, in the long-term, I'd ideally like to end up working as an analyst for an asset manager, a hedge fund, or a VC firm, preferably specializing in healthcare/biotech. Obviously, that's a stretch for some one like me. I have a few main problems. My GPA is low by finance standards: it should be about 3.4 by the end of this semester, which is actually higher than average for my major, but it probably wouldn't have gotten me any ibd interviews. It could be worse, I understand, but I also have a bigger problem: employers want to see that I have finance interest on my resume. Unfortunately, I've developed my interest pretty late in the game, after most OCR is over. I'm too old for OCR internships, plus they're mostly over too. It's sort of a circular dilemma as I see it: I can't get a finance job without finance experience at this point, but I can't get experience because I can't get a finance job. I've thought of taking the CFA Level 1, though I don't want to go forward with that right away unless I know it will be a good idea, since it costs a lot of money if you pay out of pocket, not to mention all the studying involved.
So, I have a few questions: -Given my stated goals, what would be some good paths/first steps to take? What sort of positions should I be looking for? I can probably use the alumni network at my school or cold call, but I feel like I should get something on my resume first (it's attached to this post). -Should I be considering internships even though I'm a graduating senior? Will I even be able to get them at this point? -Is trading a good way in? Trading firms are always hiring, I've noticed, and while that would technically be in finance, the consensus seems to be that trading doesn't really seem to have a lot of exit opportunities. As an aside, I think the idea of trading sounds extremely fun, but I don't find it particularly meaningful, so I wouldn't mind doing it for awhile at all, but I wouldn't want ot stay there.
Any other tips on my resume or in general would be appreciated. Resume is attached.
Sorry; originally posted this in the wrong forum. Just thought I'd put it where it belongs and see if anyone has any thoughts.
I'm actually pretty similar to you: second-semester senior, Math major, did science research for a bit.
I'm planning on getting a Masters in Finance, so you could always consider that. The top programs have something like at least 90% of graduates getting full-time offers within 3 months after graduation. And if you're at a semi-target, you could always "upgrade" to a target for the Masters.
I'd definitely consider getting an internship and seeing if you can turn it to a full-time offer if you can. Just start cold-emailing/calling alumni in your area. That's what I did last summer and I ended up at a BB. I did it again for this summer and I'm at a boutique investment bank.
The CFA may not be a bad idea. At this point, there's nothing finance related on your resume so maybe taking the CFA would let them know you're serious about it.
Upcoming Recruiting: How can a Non-Finance Major Prepare for the Worst? (Originally Posted: 07/12/2014)
I am currently at a non-target that has OCR (but generally not for analyst positions like M&A, ER, S&T).
I have a 3.75 cum GPA (round up to 3.8), Electrical Engineering and Economics major. Top tier middle market wealth management internship and plan on applying for fall/spring internships at IB's and HF's near my university.
I am relatively lacking when it comes to financial modeling experience, imperial facts, fit questions, etc because I've yet to really be tested on them.
What are good materials that I can use to learn all of this if my budget is between $500-1000?
My ideas: -Wall Street Prep for Financial Modeling (but does this include all financial theories and everything I could be asked about?) -Purchase a FIT guide, perhaps the WSO one? -I don't have the name on hand but apparently there's a really good well known textbook that has everything I need?
What programs worked best for you? Would you suggest WSP over Breaking into wallstreet? With the resources stated above, will I be prepared enough? And does it make sense to get "networking guides/toolkits"?
The book you're thinking of is Rosenbaum and Pearl, with the first version available online for free. If you're talking about prepping for SA positions, you don't need to do any preemptive financial modeling practice. Sure, understanding how things work is important, but it's not a big deal. You can find older versions of the WSO interview guide online for free. Other easy places to start are the Vault guides. As far as fit interview questions WSO has free videos that are I think 30 minutes long which are super helpful.
I spent $0 during my interview process for SA positions and got a bunch of interviews and was able to get an offer. Like you, I had no financial modeling experience and roughly the same GPA as an econ major. You can do it, no need to shell out money unless you really want to.
Your majors are extremely strong choices if you're pursuing IB.
It doesn't really take that long to gain the knowledge for interviews, but the key is to try to get the interview jitters out and practice as much as possible. BIWS was my favorite guide as I felt it set the best standard to expect for interviews in both fit and technical aspects. I would say the most important thing is knowing the three financial statements and concepts for valuation back and forth for technical scenarios. For some overkill, you can go for the LBO and M&A modeling guides too, but focus on valuation and really understanding the financial statements first.
Also, if you feel like your school brand isn't strong enough, it would be better to start networking ASAP.
You're preparing for Junior Year SA recruiting? Best advice is use Rosenbaum + WSO guides for your technical questions, practice the story type stuff, and get a fall semester internship at a small bank / fund. Work experience will cover up questions on your background.
Will a non-finance/accounting graduate degree from a top tier school be ok for IB? (Originally Posted: 12/11/2017)
Say, Master of Statistics at Yale or Master in Data Science at Harvard. Will the name of the school help?
This is because except for MIT, Princeton, Columbia, and a handful of others which have Master of Finance or Financial Engineering, most only offer MBA, which I think I'm not qualified for. I'm pretty limited with choices here.
I have Econs background from a decent EU university, GPA 3.6, CFA Level 2 and 1 year of valuation experience with a Big 4 firm. I'm good at math and stats if that is relevant. I would like to work for an IB (say Deutsche Bank or Citi, not aiming too high) in the US, preferably in NYC.
Yes, like you said, most Ivy's don't have undergraduate BBA degrees. They are still targets for IB and you have nothing to worry about if that is your background. If you already have valuation experience and CFA level 2, in my opinion you've got nothing to worry about re: your degree.
Where are the best opportunities for an older, non-finance background job-seeker? (Originally Posted: 10/30/2006)
I'm 26, working in private equity fund formation at a top law firm, have a BA in English from a top college, and looking to break into finance. Obviously I'm a little old, and don't have an ideal background ... that being said, what might be some of the most fruitful areas to explore: trading? analyst? BB? boutique? hedge fund?
I know that it's the path less-traveled, but I also know I'm not the first to try it. Any feedback or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!
well i know someone who got hired as an associate at a BB after law school...but he did have a dual BA/MBA degree(both rolled into 1)...I would say your best option is to get that MBA
Disclaimer: The post above has been made by someone who is not currently employed in IBD, and has not had an interview yet...
M&A banking is probably your best bet in given your law background
Recruiting as non-Finance major (Originally Posted: 08/22/2017)
Deleted
Try networking with alums through LinkedIn, maybe they can help you out with landing a SA position.
Non Finance Major at a Non Target School trying to break in to IB (Originally Posted: 11/06/2013)
I'm a non finance major from a non-target school with a 3.7 GPA and a Senior. I'm looking to break into the IB world. On the behavioral questions front, I think I will be fine. However, on the technical front (given my lack of finance experience or coursework), I might struggle. Does anyone know what some of the basic technical questions are that IB recruiters tend to focus on for non-finance majors? And what the expectations are?
1) Search 2) Buy and Read the guides
I have been looking through the site and I was just hoping to gauge people's perspective for my specific background. Basically, hoping to have a conversation with people and I'd add more details of my individual background as the conversation went along. Nonetheless, thanks for your response. I just bought the guide and I wanted to see which information and in which ways I'd have to know it as if I'm lucky enough to get an interview, it might be soon.
You're a senior and have just started looking into IB, so delay graduation to be considered eligible for SA position or go for an MSF and try full-time recruiting next year.
Expectations are you either amaze them with technical knowledge even though being a non-Finance major, or sell them solely on fit.
Non-finance major may get the more standard questions like 3 statements, valuation methods, DCF and its follow up questions, while Finance major or people with SA exp may run into LBO and M&A.
Thank you for your response. I'm not really looking into the delayed graduation yet. I'm looking to sell firms on the idea that I'm a great great fit. I have been juggling 15-18 credit hours of course work, 15 hours of internship work and 20-30 hours of Division 1 tennis for over a year now and before that I juggled the tennis and my academics. Through my athletics and my previous and current academic performance, I have learned to manage my time, push myself through long hours and stay disciplined while giving out quality work.
What do you think of consulting as another option? I was thinking 1-3 years od consulting and then try and break in if this is unsuccessful.
So you are gunning for FT recruiting now?
Consulting's great, but it all boils down to your own preference and skill sets.
Yeah I am. I have a contact who knows the MDs at various middle market firms and we are hoping that one of them will be willing to look at me. If not, I will aim for corporate finance roles or consulting.
Im also gunning for some buy side firms if I can. Basically casting a wide web within a specific realm.
Non-Finance Major SA Recruiting (Originally Posted: 07/01/2013)
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yes-study WSO's guides they are the best better than BIWS by far
IB interviews will contain a lot of technical challenges; do not expect to interivew for anything in IB without any tech questions. Although, I will always stress the important of "fit" and "sociability". There are INFINITE resources available to you to learn about IBD and the technicals, cheap and expensive. You're trying to get into SA recruiting... at this point in this summer..?
I majored in bio, I still got technicals, they tended to be the easy/intermediate level from the WSO guide.
Planning for 2014. I figure I might as well start at the end of this summer, given that I'm basically starting from square one and will have much less time once classes start.
Righto, you've got more than enough time to learn. To my knowledge, I'm not if there are many internships available in the fall-spring. Good luck
You should know every technical question from the WSO guides. Also, if you haven't had the academics, I would recommend the Investment Banking book from the Wiley Finance series. The book is a fairly easy read and will help you develop an actual understaning of the underlying mechanics rather than just memorizing answers (which is important for follow-up questions).
Best of luck!
Went ahead and purchased the guides. Have to say I'm more than impressed with them. I thought I had a decent grasp on basic accounting and the financial crises, but these explanations far more clear and concise.
Non finance major, looking to build stronger finance/accounting background (Originally Posted: 06/28/2013)
What do you guys recommend?
Any guides or reads to help build better understand for finance and accounting
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