Masters in Finance Question

Long story hopefully short enough for you guys, I was supposed to be a financial lawyer. After going through the process twice to try to get enough financial aid, I decided against law school because of the cost and job opportunities. I've been trying to get a job in finance ever since (since the fall of 2011 or so). I've been on a few interviews, mostly for finance related roles of various types, but I haven't had any luck so far. I think getting a graduate degree would help me--not as a golden ticket, but as a way to rebrand myself, open up a greater network, and learn more in a formal setting.

I think an MS in finance is better than an MBA, mostly because it's shorter in length and because of the work experience (more on that below), although I am open to changing my mind. The problem is getting into a school that makes it worth my time and money. My undergrad GPA is pretty shitty (2.5) from a non-target state school (Binghamton) and my degree is in history. I was a jerk off for my first few years. I started off as a math major, but I switched so I could graduate in four years.

I know the usual stuff applies--getting a killer GMAT/GRE score, selling myself, and networking relentlessly. I also know that some will always prefer the MBA over the MSF. The general plan is to get a finance certificate from a school like Berkeley or UCLA to raise my GPA and have something to put on top of my resume right away, hopefully to get an entry level job somewhere, then apply for the following fall. (For what it's worth, I've also taken the IBI training class in financial modeling and analysis.) My current job, working in a restaurant, was just a way to pay the bills until something else came along. I've saved a good amount of money, but it's obviously not impressive in any way, which is a big reason why I think an MSF (at least right now) is more realistic than an MBA.

Given my position, I think rebranding myself is key. I'm kind of old now, at 29, but not so old, I think that a redo is impossible. My overall career goal, by the way, is to own/run a holding company, so knowing how to deploy capital would be key, but having an MSF would give me more opportunities, whether in in banking, corp finance, Asset Management, or something similar.

A few people I've reached out to on LinkedIn have said this is a good approach. I was trying to get some feedback here as well. I know it won't be easy, but telling me to go kill myself or something along those lines isn't really necessary.

 

"it may be more than just your undergrad GPA"

Please elaborate.

I didn't want to make that first post too long, but I could have added (a) that my focus switched and I haven't spent every single day of the last few years applying for jobs. In regards to (a), I thought I wanted to do personal financial advising, but then I realized I wouldn't like that. For a year or so, I didn't apply to analyst jobs, but Fidelity-style jobs. In regards to (b), there were times, like when I was taking the analyst-style training class, that I didn't send out resumes for weeks at a time. I haven't sent out any resumes in the last 2-3 weeks as I consider my next move and try to rework mine, etc.

I haven't looked at the requirements for the CPA, but I don't think it would interest me.

 
life redo:

"it may be more than just your undergrad GPA"

Please elaborate.

I didn't want to make that first post too long, but I could have added (a) that my focus switched and I haven't spent every single day of the last few years applying for jobs. In regards to (a), I thought I wanted to do personal financial advising, but then I realized I wouldn't like that. For a year or so, I didn't apply to analyst jobs, but Fidelity-style jobs. In regards to (b), there were times, like when I was taking the analyst-style training class, that I didn't send out resumes for weeks at a time. I haven't sent out any resumes in the last 2-3 weeks as I consider my next move and try to rework mine, etc.

I haven't looked at the requirements for the CPA, but I don't think it would interest me.

At this point, you may have to reconsider what "interests you," unless working in a restaurant really "interests you."

“Elections are a futures market for stolen property”
 

So a career in finance requires a lot of hustle and focus. You have to know what you want. But you've changed your mind a few times in the past couple years. And I don't know how much of that time you've spent hustling.

I don't think you're ready for an MSF or an MBA. Not yet.

Here is what you may consider instead:

-Accountants have relatively easier jobs, at least compared to working for a bank. -If you pass the CPA exam, you're pretty darned employable as an accountant. Jobs start at $60K/year. -If all goes well, you can do an MBA and become a banker or a CFO.

It sounds like you're an ambitious person, but are you really ready for all of the work and dedication yet? I just think the worst-case outcome on taking a CPA exam is a lot better than the worst-case outcome on borrowing $100K for an MSF. This approach gives you a better transition to a banking career, IMHO. The CPA designation gives you a foot in the door at Accy firms, you can then switch to a Big Four firm and apply to an MBA business schools ">M7 program, or you may be happy where you are.

 

""And I don't know how much of that time you've spent hustling."

Not nearly as much as I should have. I wish I had made the decision about an MSF last fall. I had been slightly hesitant to pursue further schooling, mostly because an MBA (or at least a worthwhile one) requires relevant work experience, which I do not yet have. You're also largely dependent on their time lines, not your own, which is the case with a lot of online stuff.

I also became more aware of my desires (holding company) in the last few months. Maybe this doesn't change my focus too much in the end, because any job in the field that leads me to gain new skills and network is good, but as far as education goes, I now have a better idea, I think.

"I don't think you're ready for an MSF or an MBA. Not yet."

I don't think so, either. Forgive me if I am repeating myself too much, but my overall goal in life requires knowing how to use capital, as opposed to running something. That's one big reason why I think an MSF is better than an MBA. It's also one year, as opposed to two.

I have more research to do on the programs, but I've been looking at Kelley's. It's a top school, from what I can tell, but they have an online degree, which means I could still work, in theory.

But like you said, I don't think I am ready just yet. I could apply for this year, technically, but it'd be a waste. That's why I think going for an online certification in finance is a good move. It's significantly cheaper, it would allow me to raise my GPA while also learning new stuff, and it'd allow me to put something at the top of my resume right away, as I could say I am a current student.

Maybe in the end, I never get an MSF or an MBA and get to where I want to be by working hard and networking, but I think part of my problem is getting people to give me a chance. Hence the focus on the MSF.

I understand your worry that I might be biting off more than I can chew, especially with the debt. That's why I didn't go to law school. The JD would have been a good signaling move in some ways, but at $150-200,000 before any interest, that's one damn risky move.

I think my interests are wider than simply being an accountant. The MSF might be narrower than an MBA, but it's wide enough, it seems to let me do a variety of things--banking, corp finance, Asset Management, hedge fund work, etc.

This response is long enough, so let me ask more directly, does my described path--first working on an online cert. as I try to gain a job and network, then perhaps pursuing an advanced degree, most likely an MSF--sound sensible, if I have a good handle on what it is I'd be happy doing, as I think I do? It's not an easy path, but if certain things happen, it certainly seems doable, and I think I am taking it one step at a time, as you indicate I should.

 

Red flags all over this.

1) GPA in a soft major at Binghamton is going to be an issue. 2) You are 29 now and want to apply in a year. You'd be 30 matriculating. 3) You have no work history. Working at a restaurant isn't going to help you.

What have you been doing between 22 and 29?

My advice is as follows. Forget the MSF. First off, you need a real job. Get something in the back office, whatever. Second, consider a decent regional PT MBA. Take your time with the degree, hopefully at a firm that will provide some reimbursement. Hopefully you can do well and complete the degree in 3 years. That way you'll have an MBA and 3 years of professional work experience. Use that to find a F500 job or something. Put in your time and work your way up.

 

Red flags for what?

  1. I know; that's why I want to raise it by completing an online certificate. I'd also hopefully make up for it to some degree by getting a high test score.

  2. Is age really the issue? I figured I was in the same position as someone right out of undergrad, in that I have no financial experience, despite being older.

  3. I thought I wanted to work in financial law, which is why I was all set to go to law school. This job paid the bills, nothing really more. I know that's something that isn't going to help me, but it's the truth.

Forget the MSF forever? As I said above, I think, based on what it stands for, it's the better degree, since it's more targeted than the MBA.

Also, I know I need a real job. One reason why I have this general outline in mind--the online certification, followed by some sort of advanced degree, like an MS--is that I think it would help show I am serious and let me break in some where.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, because I do understand what you are saying. I'm far behind, and I know it. In an ideal world, perhaps I'd start doing what I described, find success, and then spending the money on the graduate degree wouldn't be necessary. But since life isn't that easy, I figured doing what I described above--no doubt, taking it one step at a time--is a step in the right direction. As I said, in the end, maybe it won't be necessary to get an MSF (or an MBA), but were I to get the degree, it'd give me the skills and knowledge to a variety of things, and it's not like I am plunking down a lot of money for a diploma mill degree.

 

Why is the age such a big deal?

It's not like I am going to stop looking for a job in the mean time. Is it really such a bad idea to plan on taking this degree even as I continue to try to get a better job than the one I have now? Or is an MBA simply the better route, once I get a few years of work experience, despite the MSF being more targeted for what I want to do?

I get that the MBA is considered the better and/or broader degree, but I don't believe I want to run a company.

 

Age isn't an issue. The issue is you will have 8 years since undergrad with no real work experience. Being a waiter while in school is fine, but doing it for 7-8 years hurts you. You essentially have no professional work experience going into your 30s.

This is why I suggested getting an office type gig and doing an MBA. You can stretch it out and by the time you graduate you'll have 3-4 years of professional experience.

Furthermore, I still don't know why you want an MSF. You have no educational or work background. I get the one year thing, but you can get that with a masters in accounting or management. At this point you need a professional job in anything.

 

In case it wasn't clear from my original post, I figured I'd be doing an online MSF so I could be working as I completed it. I also figured that an MSF was better than an MBA because it's more targeted for finance, as opposed to an MBA, which is more general. Is that really so off base?

I get your skepticism of my situation. To elaborate a little more, my plan is to use an online certification as part of the job search process. In addition to giving me more skills, it would show I am not just sending out resumes to any open position, but trying to improve myself as a potential employee. Ideally, I'd get a job sooner rather than later, or at least an internship in the realm of what I want to do, and the certificate could make that happen sooner. This would give me the work experience you say I need (and, to be clear, I know I need), and then I could complete an MSF online. (I'm interested in Kelley's programs, since they have a bunch of good online options and it's a very good school, along with NYU and Wharton, for finance; I also know it's hard, which is why I am waiting to apply). At this point, I'd have more work experience under my belt, plus a legitimately good degree to use to jump into something better.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy to get this done, but why is the general course of action so ridiculous?

As for explaining my situation, I figured it's easier to get across in person. The economy's been pretty crappy since I graduated, for one thing. Maybe a BB-type job would take a while to get, but basically, I wanted to be a financial law but figured law school would be a poor investment. I then looked directly for a job in finance and got a clearer sense of what I wanted to do as I tried to educate myself. Were I to get a finance certification and then an MSF, would it be that hard to take me seriously? I'm not talking about a degree from Kaplan or something like that, but a serious school, like Kelley, or if I had to not do it online, like Villanova. I'm confident I can get a good GMAT or GRE score and do well in the certificate program.

Again, I'm not saying this is going to be easy, but despite being older, I'm not 45. And if age isn't the issue, what is? In both of our scenarios, I'd be getting work experience and then, when I finally completed a degree, had something under my belt. Is it that no improvements to my situation--no good grades in a certificate program, no killer test scores--will get me into a good MSF?

 

You have been given excellent advice so far and you seem to neglect and criticize their advice. These people are only trying to help you.

Just like TNA mentioned there are so many red flags

1) Age is an issue when you haven't really done anything in that time. Working in restaurant unless you were managing it or you own it does not count.

2) You had a 2.5 and you wanted to a financial lawyer? I don't know what kind of law school you can even get in with a 2.5. Law schools are still notorious for the high GPA and LSAT as far as I know.

3) How have you been exposed yourself to finance during and after your undergrad. If you have trading from your personal account with a solid alpha or even helping out people to teach financial literacy that would count.

4) It seems like after your dreams of becoming a great financial lawyer were crushed you just wanted the next best thing. Where is the preparation?

5) Were you applying to law school for the last 8 years?

6) People who suddenly want to work in finance at your age are: a) Business/non-profit professionals who have been involved in some sort of business functions like accounting, marketing or operations. b) Doctors, scientists or professionals like them who are kinda bored with their own work and have been trading from their personal account and love it, so they now want to work in finance.

7) My advice would be in line with IlliniP to get a CPA. Go to your local school get a degree in accounting. Pass the CPA. Join a local acct firm. Then move into a big 4 in a couple of years. Then you would be in the right phase to get a solid MSF or MBA.

Now about your chances at top MSFs now I think they are pretty slim. 2.5 is something they can overlook with a killer GMAT or a compelling life story. Till now you have neither. If you get a 720+ then you can even think about a MSF but still it would be a terrible choice.

 

I don't mean to seem harsh. I apologize if that's the case.

To respond to your points one by one:

  1. I know it's not going to help me, but is it going to be a pair of lead boots? I didn't think it would be, but some here are one step away from saying it would be. That seems odd to me.

  2. I got accepted/wait listed at a few top 100 schools. I had an upward trend, a decent LSAT score, and a good reason for wanting to be a lawyer.

  3. I've invested my own money, but I am not sure it's anything to brag about. I've slowed down my personal trading in the last few months since I was probably doing it too much. I also wanted to let DRIP compounding work its magic.

  4. Well, I was focused on being a lawyer and working to save money, and I didn't focus on getting another job. It seems like you need work experience before going to get an MBA, and they are expensive to get to boot, and I don't have that yet. As I said, one of the reasons I want to take this path--getting the finance certification as part of the process of getting a new job, then working on getting into an online MSF so I can get that degree as I work--is that I think the certification will help me get my foot in the door somewhere and begin to network in the industry.

To be clear, it was my decision not to go to law school. I was looking for apartments and considering classes and all that, and then I got my financial aid package. It was a difficult decision to make, and it set me back professionally, but I think it was probably the right decision, given the legal market.

It's hard to convey this in a cover letter and a resume without seeming too scattered, but it's not like I've been doing nothing but playing video games for the last few years. I could have moved up with the current company I work for, by the way, but I chose not to because it would have been a big pay cut, and I didn't think it made sense since I had no intention of staying in the industry.

  1. Again, no. I started the process in months after I graduate college, and then I applied again, going through the entire process (taking the LSAT, filling out new applications, etc) to get more money. It didn't come. When I realized it wasn't worth the risk, I decided to look for a job directly in finance.

As I was doing this, I got a greater sense of what I wanted to do.

  1. I get I am in an unusual position. That's why I am trying to work towards improving my image before I apply. I think taking the IBI class was a good step, but hardly the only one I could have taken.

  2. I don't want to be an accountant, so why would I get a CPA? I know it's a good body of knowledge, and a lot of IB and other stuff in finance is analyzing financial statements, but I don't want to do purely accounting.

I know it's one path, but it seems like it doesn't make sense for me to pursue something so directly involved when it's not what I want to do.

Why would an MSF be a terrible choice even if I create a killer app with a top gmat score, etc? Why is an MBA, especially one by way of an accounting degree and then a CPA, so much better?

 

Why is an MSF a bad choice?

It is because you have no internships or work experience and you had 8 years to do something about it.

I can see this story. You graduate from college, you have a 2.5 but still you wanna be a lawyer. You work at a restaurant now and then you apply. The first time around (year 1) you did not get in at any law schools you wanted, then at year two you apply again, you get in but still no aid so decide against it. Then year 3 you apply again you hope for a better aid package but don't get the amount you wanted. This should be the end of the story. But yours go on for another 4 or 5 years and during this time you don't accumulate any worthwhile work experiences.

MSF is a degree for kids with little or no work experience. Little or no experience is valid because they just graduated or graduating college. The other subset that get an MSF degree are people who have been working in accounting or sales or some type of finance they don't enjoy and they have been out of college for 2-3 years. They don't have yet a great profile for a top MBA so they get an MSF and try get that top job. You don't fall under either of these categories.

Dude, seriously, 8 years is a long time. You have nothing to show for it. Yes you can definitely get into a ok or even decent MSF with a 700+ GMAT but then you would be competing for jobs with kids who just graduated college with a good amount of internship experiences or people with low level or non finance but still business or professional work experiences. Why would anyone want to hire you? I would not.

I have some experiences in hiring although not in finance. I managed my family business for over a year. We have about 40 employees. We mostly hired engineering grads as entry level or people with project management exp as experienced hires. Sorry for going off on a tangent but what I am trying to say is if I see a resume even with a MSF but no work experience for 8 years I wouldn't even give you call back. This is not to say that your life is over. But what I am trying to say is that MSF is not the right step. The right step is getting a job, any job that gets you behind a desk in an office environment and then building from there.

Why don't you try and get a Realtor license (if you don't like accounting) then and build some solid sales and office work experience? BTW have you exposed yourself to accounting?

The thing you really need is to get inside a office. Get some professional experience man.

 

First, let me say I appreciate your feedback, even if I question what you say and try to go back and forth with you.

But it seems like something's being lost here, so I'd like to describe it again. I'm not talking about trying to go directly into an MSF program. I'm talking taking an online certificate--something from, say, UC Berkeley, not Kaplan, which has grades that would count when they consider GPA--and trying to get a finance job, or something different from what I am doing now--AND THEN going for the MSF.

Is that so stupid? I know it's hard, and I know I'd need to package myself properly, get a top score, and so on. Still, what part of this plan is so terrible? I know the finance certificates aren't the same thing as an MBA from HBS, but they will teach me things and show I am trying to improve myself. I figure it'd be one way to get the job you say (and I know) I need to get before I can make a serious move. The rep from Kelley says the grades would count, so if I do well, it'll help make up for the poor undergrad GPA.

The MSF seems better because it's more targeted to finance and what I want to do, while giving me a background for other stuff at the same time, not general management stuff. I know the programs are hard to get into, but so are MBA programs that are worth anything, it seems.

Is the issue with the MSF or that people are under the impression I think I am going to jump directly into a program? If an MSF is so ridiculous, even one that is online/part time, why is an MBA suddenly so sensible?

 
IlliniProgrammer:

Let's see if @UFOinsider has any thoughts on this. I suspect he has a higher undergrad GPA but his story has some similarities.

Thanks for bringing me in on this :)

Hi. My ugrad GPA was actually worse, as in I would not have graduated at all if I'd gotten two or three questions wrong on my last final. I'm told that there were three others (out of 5,000) with lower final GPAs than me, so I even failed at being the worst. LOL there's always someone who wants it more? But I digress.

Here's the deal: you need to come to terms with reality, and ask yourself what you really want. Is this a get rich quick thing? Do you just need a change? Or do you just want a regular job now that you're not a kid anymore? Any answer will do, but look within yourself first, it will simplify your process. If you're ready, you're ready. Then you make the full committment. Network like your life depends on it, take ANY even remotely relevant experience, and prepare yourself for a long and tiring elephant hunt.

OR

I'd recommend that you get a masters or MBA in accounting and I'll tell you why. But first I'll tell you why NOT to look at finance for a little while. And I'm being point blank honest with you for your benefit. Finance is very competitive and there are kids younger than you with better grades from better schools that can't find a way in easily. You've been interviewing for three years and instead of taking part time or shitty BO jobs and then leveraging up, you've chosen to stay at the restaurant. This tells me that you're either unmotivated, really just don't stand a chance, or haven't taken the time to figure out how to turn this into a winning hand. Realize that people who work in this spent a lot of time doing some pretty thankless work to get here, it's not a get rich quick scheme. You've lost a lot of time, and you're doing the same thing over and over, all the while expecting different results: that's the definition of insanity. Don't be insane, it's overrated. On top of all this, banks are still cutting staff. Just to illustrate, Barclay's is announcing a HUGE round of layoffs tomorrow morning I think. These are smart, connected, hardworking people with good grades and experience that they're kicking to the curb....and you think you can reasonably expect to land a job at a place like that? Maybe you can, and fuckit, give it a shot.

But know when to cut your losses.

Enough of that, here's your action plan:

Look at accounting masters. WHY? You stand a far better shot at getting placed into accounting, getting a CPA, and then applying to MBA programs or whatever...all within just a couple of years. Masters of finance programs are a huge double edged sword, and can actually work against you, especially since your prior experience can be a factor in getting the first job. Listen to TNA's opinion on this, he knows more about masters programs than most people on earth. It's entirely possible you call up a dean at a MSF program and they decide to admit you, so don't write it off. With accounting, once you get the CPA you have many options, regardless of prior experience. What I'm really getting at is......You want out of the full time restaurant business, right? If you don't end up as a managing director at JP-Goldman-Deutche-Citi bank, at least you're not asking if they want fucking fries with that. It's fun now, but it's going to grate on you at some point as you realize most of the people aren't any smarter than you, they just focused on other things.

So that's priority #1 for you: get a real career online. Then you leverage this against the things that you really want. What you're currently doing is the proverbial 'getting on a bus to Hollywood' approach, and while it may work....you haven't gotten very far and I'm here to get you back on track. Get on the grid. This is often more tedious than challenging, and if you're in this for the long haul then it doesn't matter that you spend a year or two doing a less cool job. Accounting opens up a lot of doors, and let's be honest: when was the last time you saw an unemployed accountant? It's an awesome safety net compared to waiting tables. Give yourself that gift.

Priority #2 is to then leverage that against perhaps a fund accounting/controller role, or maybe PE due dilligence. Maybe you'll go to TAS or valuations or an ER assistant role. Or maybe you'll just be an audit CPA that can work for a couple of years and have time to get a better handle on the long term. Finance is often a zero sum game where winner takes all, but accounting has a much wider spectrum of entry points....take advantage of that. Bottom line, then you have professional options and can also realistically think about applying to the upper tier schools that make finance a realistic PLAN.

Which brings me to priority #3 - don't limit yourself, or rather, BE AN OPPORTUNIST. You've become ambitious and that's a REALLY GOOD THING, and now you want to stay open to every opportunity. Don't get fixated on one job....and this is just a job. I did this the hard way and literally got on a train, walked down Wall Street, and began by soliciting people for a job. I'm now working on a bunch of things, but I would very frankly recommend against this as I spent far too much time and effort (and heartache) doing things this way. Much better would have been just to get "some masters degree and some job, whatever job" because that's a whole lot faster and it's easier to sell future employers and grad schools on. I'll be ok, but I'm telling you a better way to do things. Better for your career, better for your work/life balance, and better for your general sanity. Illini and TNA have both seen me in pretty bad shape, and when I look back, I can honestly say it wasn't worth it. One other thing: you can learn to manage capital a bunch of ways, but if you want in on the corporate work scene, use school as a recruiting platform and nothing less. Schools will gladly take your tuition money, but you're doing this to get a job and a damn paycheck. Don't let anyone sell you otherwise.

Accounting programs also have another benefit: some place directly into finance. Rutgers accounting MBA places into TAS, even though they don't broadcast it Texas A&M is really great, I know some ER guys who went there Indianna is another good school that places all over the place ...really, there's a TON of good accounting schools that would give you the time of day

My point is that you need to think straight and realize that you need to focus on battles you can win. I'm here to present what I think is the most feasible approach to not just finance, but your professional life. You may want to work in some other professional capacity as well. But I see in you an unhealthy fixation on something that simply isn't doing antyhing for you and I'm calling you out on it. Maybe you would be a good doctor, or lawyer, or some other thing, I don't know. If you want finance, accounting has a huge amount of overlap and you can transition. I'm here to share with you a perspective built on talking with thousands of people, fighting my way in, and surviving to the point of having some really good options: I'm here to tell you a better and faster way to get where I am. I want you to be successful.....and I want you to stand a realistic chance.

I laid it on pretty thick because, well, partly because I was an asshole the other day on this site and I have some karma to work off but I also really do mean what I'm saying. I hope you take all this into consideration, and I hope you do well. Feel free to contact me with questions. Feel free also to allow yourself to be successful without limiting yourself to something that is currently out of reach....but can become within reach if you're serious.

Adieu

Get busy living
 
I'm not talking about trying to go directly into an MSF program.

Is the issue with the MSF or that people are under the impression I think I am going to jump directly into a program? If an MSF is so ridiculous, even one that is online/part time, why is an MBA suddenly so sensible?

Slow down there, killer. The certificate question should be one of many opportunities under consideration, and I'm not sure you really want to be aiming for an eventual MSF. UFO has a unique background to advise you on your situation, which is why I am sending him shout-outs.

I'm trying to work backwards from Point B- a decent finance job, to figure out what you need to be doing next from Point A. I don't see a lot of potential paths taking you through an MSF for what it's worth. ANT may not either. Many opportunities that would be open to you with an MSF would also be open to you with the kind of job that could get you into an MSF program. An MBA would be different.

My view is that the professional designation (¢) -> Job? -> MBA ($$$) -> Better Job is a more attractive option time, risk, and cost-wise than certificate ($$) -> MSF ($$$) -> Job? Why spend all that money up front for an outcome that will look similar to just getting a professional designation? Why not go for a decent job in an industry you can be OK with, and then get an MBA and get a great job in the industry you want?

Your posts sound a little critical and frustrated- either that or horribly pessimistic- and I'm not sure why. You're only 29. And for what it's worth this is all free advice.

 

IP:

I apologize for how I sound. Not in my intention at all. I'm just trying to be sure of the path I have outlined in my head before I do anything and am trying to be as direct as possible, as I tend to ramble if I try to be overly courteous. (FWIW, my mom's been having some health issues. Not your problem, but it does make my tense.)

I do appreciate the time you are taking to respond to me.

I'm not dead set against doing an MBA, but it seems like the MSF is more targeted for what I want to do, as opposed to the MBA, which is more general and focused on management stuff.

I mentioned Kelley because it's a great school and it has an online program. There are other online programs, and many of them are probably good even if they aren't HBS, but since, in my mind, the MSF seemed like the more targeted and quicker way of getting the advanced degree that would help me succeed, that's what I have been focusing on.

I'm not pursuing a degree for kicks. I figured it'd function as both a signaling move as well as a way to give me more skills and knowledge. People here keep mentioning the MBA over the MSF, but assuming I need to get something, what's really the big advantage of it? Is it that I have possibly locked myself out of a good finance career?

If I didn't mention it already, my eventual goal is to run/own my own holding company (but not run any of the businesses myself), so capital deployment is a key notion. Hence the MSF over the MBA. Maybe it's not necessary in the end to get any degree, and if it isn't, I won't. But figure since I don't want to run anything, the MSF should be the focus.

As for the finance certificate, my reasoning is this: it's a way to show I am serious, as opposed to just blasting anyone with a pulse with a resume, but it's less expensive than a graduate degree. Since I could (at least in a few cases) pay for it credit by credit, I'm not even out the full cost. I could put it on my resume since I'd be a current student, but I'd only continue if I found it to be worthwhile. If not, I'd stop. Basically, it's the most direct way to do something on my end, as I continue to search and network, while also being the least risky. Would you agree that it's a decent way to shake up my resume, even if it's obviously no guarantee to get me anything?

 

Neither Kelly Direct or Gtown would accept you unless you absolutely dominate the GMAT. Even then it is debatable. You could probably get into the UMich Deaborn online program. The issue is you don't need an online degree.

I really don't get the focus on an MSF degree.

1) You need a network. Hence why I recommend you being in class.

2) You need a good GPA. You have a history background and you did poorly in it. Even if you did well, it was nearly 8 years ago so school is going to be rusty. An MSF is going to be difficult for recent grads who had a finance background. A good, local MBA will allow you to take classes that are not only quant to increase your odds of a higher GPA.

3) You are not an MSF candidate. You didn't study finance, you didn't work in finance, you aren't a 0-2 years of work experience, you aren't going to be applying for or working in IB/PE/ER. You'll be targeting corporate finance or something of that sort, what you can get from an MBA.

4) Age IS a factor. If it can ruin MBA chances it can ruin MSF chances. If you had 8 years of finance experience and wanted to do a PT program at BC or an online MSF at Georgetown you would be fine. But you are a 30 year old with no professional experience and no academic experience in finance.

If you want to do an online cert program, fine, might help you in landing that initial job. I would suggest hitting up Robert Half and trying to get a temp office job. That would at least provide you with professional experience to leverage on your resume. That would be a step in the right direction. You most likely need their help. Frankly, no cert you get will help you get a job. It will be nice and a selling point, but you either need a temp agency to do it or you need to advocate for yourself and get on the phones and network into some entry level position.

If I were in your shoes I would save up some money and relocate to a city (non-NYC) and focus on securing a temp office gig or a back office/lower rank F500 type job. I think BO might be easier though. You can wait tables or whatever on the side to make ends meet, but focus on getting a good professional gig. Once you have that secured then apply to whatever decent PT MBA program is in town. Drexel/Temple in Philly, UI Chicago/Loyola in Chicago, Houston in Houston, etc. Take some classes, slowly, and continue to build your resume. In 3-4 years you'll have that MBA and experience and you can use your education and network to get yourself a decent F500 gig or maybe something MO.

Go down the MSF path if you want, but I am saying don't. You'll most likely struggle academically and even if you don't, whatever program that will admit you will do nothing for you. And you'd land an entry level at a F500 firm at best, what you could get through applying and networking or through a temp agency. Save the $60-70K in tuition and focus on working now and get an MBA later on.

Side note - Maybe you should revisit getting promoted at your current place. Take the pay cut and get something professional on your resume. Being a store manager is good work and you could do an MBA with that.Maybe move up to corporate after. You know the industry and the company, path of least resistance would be to stay within.

 

TNA:

Not to sound like a pain, but in one sentence, you said an online cert. might help me get a job, and then you said it wouldn't. That's something I could do right now, so I'd like to be clear on which way you lean.

As far as getting promoted at my current place, it's been offered before, and even if were to be offered again, I wouldn't take it. I hate the industry and am ready for something else.

 
life redo:

TNA:

Not to sound like a pain, but in one sentence, you said an online cert. might help me get a job, and then you said it wouldn't. That's something I could do right now, so I'd like to be clear on which way you lean.

As far as getting promoted at my current place, it's been offered before, and even if were to be offered again, I wouldn't take it. I hate the industry and am ready for something else.

Help you do what exactly? I simply don't see what it is going to do. If you had experience it might help you a little, but it isn't going to move the needle 8 years out of undergrad. Neither will an online masters.

Call the local Robert Half temp agency and try and get a back office job at a bank. That will help your resume. Once you get that, then consider this online cert. That might help then. Then look at local MBA programs that you can do while you work. It will also help you network and meet other local professionals.

 

I don't understand where this idea that an MBA is just general and management comes from. You specialize. You can get an MBA with a finance focus or with another focus. At this point I think you should warm up to the idea of learning general business and management. You have neither the undergraduate education nor the work experience necessary that would make this broad business graduate degree unnecessary.

I would revisit that store management path. I think it is probably the best opportunity for you.

BTW - Kelly is more for people with 5-7 years professional experience. I think the UMich Dearborn online MSF is within your grasp at this point. Although it wont help you since the degree isn't going to get people to hire you without any relevant experience.

Check out Robert Half. They can help place you into a office job.

 

TNA:

I don't mean to convey that I think it's a bad degree or something, just that I've read and been told it's more general for people who want to run things. I know you can get it with a finance focus, but I figured an MSF would be better since it's more targeted.

No matter what I end up doing, it won't be anything at my current job. It's not what I want to do, and I don't care for most of the people I work with any longer. I definitely need something new.

Is the UM-Dearborn MSF worth anything, if I were to get it after some getting some work experience? I haven't looked at the program, so I am not sure how it's considered here.

 

You're talking about how bad ass winning the Superbowl will be with an 0-6 record mid season. I'd focus less on running shit and more on getting relevant work experience.

Hit up the temp agency before you do anything else. An MSF/MBA/Online Cert will do nothing for you without a professional job.

 
Best Response

This is pathetic. If you came here for advice you gotta shit load of solid advice but still your mind has not changed from the moment you wrote your original post. Kelley MS Finance usually contains executives with over 10 years of experience. You don't fit into that at all. If you want to listen to advice then do or just keep arguing the fact that you have not done anything after graduating with a poor GPA in a soft major from a mediocre school.

Get off the the website you have your diagnosis. Follow the regiment that has been given to you by TNA or IP. It would be the best solution for you.

 

I think the one thing everyone keeps repeating here is "job".

You do not want to turn into one of those degree collectors. While waiter or waitress isn't easy work, it's not one of those things that finance hiring managers will take seriously, at least on a 29 year old's resume. It shows you know how to show up to work on time, but that's about it.

We need to get you off of this education obsession.

We need to get you relevant work experience.

You should either go for manager at your current restaurant, or you should go for realtor or accountant. None of these will require much schooling. (The CPA exam may require a few accounting courses at your local community college.)

I think I am beginning to understand why you spent eight years not going to law school and not moving on with your life. It's time for you to settle for what's reasonable. You still have the opportunity to not spend your entire career as a waiter. But settling requires making decisions and taking responsibility for them.

After reading through this thread, I honestly don't think you are going to do that.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

It might not seem like it, IP, but I am trying to get relevant work experience. I just haven't been having much luck, which is why I thought I'd try to switch up my approach and possibly add something new to my resume.

I'm not trying to be difficult and say you're wrong with your suggestions. I'm just trying to understand the thought process that goes into focusing on an MBA instead of an MSF--over the long term, of course. I had read info that said the MSF was the better option.

I'm not sure why you think Im not taking responsibility for my decisions. I have made some poor ones, or at least ones that made reaching my goals more difficult, but I am not blaming anyone. (I happen to think it was a good idea not to go law school, because of how much it would have cost me, but that's just me.) I'm simply trying to be as direct as possible.

Well anyway, assuming this isn't your subtle way of telling me to eff off, I might try to message at some point, if you if don't mind. As I try to sort through this all, I'm sure I'll have more questions.

 

I'm hearing more excuses and arguing rather than "Ok. It sounds like everyone is giving me good advice. I'll get one of those jobs." Thi is probably why you are a 29 year old waiter who has had dreams of being someone else for seven years but always came up with some excuse or argument not to do anything.

In any case, the rest of us have our own decisions to make and our own successful careers to get back to, and your excuses don't change our answers.

You are serving food to bankers, traders, accountants, and realtors who are younger than you and all got jobs and careers while you sat and hemmed and hawed. While these young kids are planning expensive weekend trips that you could never afford using money they earned from their jobs, you are getting them sandwiches. And as you get older, it's only going to get worse. An MSF or certificate program will probably put you back in the same situation but with student debt to pay off. I don't know how you are going to feel about this job at 40.

You can stay on this road if you like, or you can listen to everyone else and get a better job first, then get an MBA. That is the way forward here.

Sorry. This is one of the meaner posts I've written on this forum, but it may also turn out to be one of the nicer posts if it convinces you to go be a realtor. When the pain of staying the same is worse than the pain of admitting you could be wrong and changing, people change.

 

@"IlliniProgrammer" - I mean I support your realtor suggestion, but isn't accounting a little far off at this point? IMO, any white collar type experience would help. Being a manager at a retail place would be fine also. Quick and easiest way of getting professional experience would be through a temp agency. They are always looking for data processors and shit like that.

 

CPA requires 4 courses of accounting plus a minimum # of credit hours in business classes in the state of IL (Seething like 30 including the Accy courses). It does not require an Accy degree. Something made me think OP had a lot of undergraduate business classes.

Regardless I'd prefer to see OP pay $80/credit hour for 30 credit hours of Accy courses that land him a $55k/year job with a career progression and benefits than pay $100k for an MSF that doesn't help him.

But retail manager or realtor makes more sense for OP.

 

OP, I think that you should focus right now on expanding your network and trying to get a good job. I would join any local business club or organization that would have you. Look into something like rotary or the Lions Club. I would also start applying to a lot of jobs just basically blanket everything that you can. A good and easy entry route into finance is becoming a stockbroker most of the firms are not that selective about it, it's a tough job it's a miserable grind but you can get your Series 7. Another option is to try and work in retail banking and try and move over to the commercial side of that.

 

I know this is an old thread but I came across doing some research because I'm in a somewhat similar situation as the OP so figured I would see if anyone could give me some advice/guidance.

A little background - I'm 33 years old and have been working for 7 years now as an inventory analyst and have been thinking about getting into finance. I graduated in 2008 with a Bachelor's in Marketing because I realized too late that it wasn't what I wanted to do so I figured the only way for me to get into the financial industry would be to go back to school and get a Master's in it. I know that my job now doesn't have anything to do with Finance but I'm hoping that my analytical skills would help me in getting into the industry as an analyst in corporate finance or IB. So I'm wondering if pursuing an MBA would be beneficial for me or if I've waited too long now and the opportunity would know longer be there. I'd really appreciate everyone's help on this as this is a big decision and I feel my window is running out

 
casual167:

How would a Bachelor's in accounting benefit me in my current situation? I figured getting my Masters would be best at this stage than going back for another Bachelor's. Is it just as difficult getting into corporate finance as it is for IB?

Couldn't you network internally and lateral over to the finance dept? As an inventory analyst you touch the balance sheet and the income statement. Tie your current experience to some knowledge about those statements and you should be able sell someone on moving over.

 

Unfortunately there isn't any opportunity for advancement or switching position at the company I'm at now. That's one of the reasons why I'm looking to move on and dealing with inventory has a limit as to how high you can move up. Finance is what I'm interested in and there's a lot of opportunities for advancement so that's why I'm looking for advice on the best way to break in giving my skills, which I realize is only analysis and research in inventory, and my situation of being 33 with a Bachelor's in marketing

 

I think your best bet is a lateral through the finance department and then maybe over to corporate bonds.

Having gone to graduate school, I don't necessarily recommend it to other folks. Grad school easily costs six figures these days. And that's before the opportunity cost of what you could save if you were working for two years. Rather than paying cash for a condo right now, I am instead finding myself getting a mortgage on 80% of its value. I am also finding that Chicago condo prices are quickly escalating, but that is another story. (For some reason Russian Oligarchs find it brilliant financial strategy to buy downtown condo in major US city, let sit empty generating no cashflow, and pay city dictator so-called "property tax" in meantime. Oh well.)

An MBA might help you here. But short of an M7 admit- and even then it's a little borderline- I think you're better off trying to lateral and saving $160K. Or at the very least save the MBA button for when it gets you into Chicago Booth rather than a T20 school.

@"mbavsmfin" for some MBA wisdom.

 

Im kinda in the same situation as you. I didn't do to well in school (just graduated with a BSBA in Finance at 28) and I'm trying to break into finance in NYC. I choose grades as an opportunity cost for working till 6am at various Vegas nightclubs and various other reasons(frat parties).. Try getting up at 10am for class when you work super late.. It's brutal lol. I think since I was addicted to the Vegas nightclub money I kinda screwed myself with the grades and not doing internships. But I can say one thing that I did do to be proactive was joining the finance club, and also joining our schools investment club. I was a sector analyst with the investment club & membership chair of the finance club. Ive only had a couple interviews, but they seem to respond well to my extracurriculars even with my lack of financial experience. So I will say that if you look at going back for an accounting degree look at joining the clubs. Specifically anything related to finance. If they don't have one. Make one!

I have always thought that accounting is a decent way to gain some experience. So I might continue to look into a CPA. A lot of my friends have told me not a good idea, but they are not in NYC trying to work on wall street. @"UFOinsider" I am down in Florida helping my parents out for 2 weeks. But when I get I get back to NYC i'd love to grab a cup of coffee and hear about how you go started. If that is ok with you?

 

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