Could a solid, but not top MFE program help me break into trading at a bank/hedge fund?

I posted a similar question in the Business School Barrage, but so far no answer. I got into UCLA's MFE program and I'm hoping to leverage the opportunity to get an entry level position at a bank or hedge fund in trading. I have been working at a proprietary trading company for 2 years (put up my own capital, get leverage) while completing a MS in Mathematics from a mediocre private school, and have only been able to lineup only a couple of interviews. I'm hoping the program would open up various opportunities in derivatives trading, but I'm afraid I'd get stuck in something like risk management and never be able to get out.

 

What if you don't land a coveted a trading position?

You have a bachelors, a masters and now are pursuing a second masters. That is a lot of fucking school. I don't want to dissuade you, but can you afford this education? What is your Plan B?

 
ArcherVice:

What if you don't land a coveted a trading position?

You have a bachelors, a masters and now are pursuing a second masters. That is a lot of fucking school. I don't want to dissuade you, but can you afford this education? What is your Plan B?

I don't even want to think about that, but I'm debt free. I haven't even applied to any non-trading jobs, because I'm too obsessed with getting a trading job. All other areas of finance don't interest me one bit. All other careers I might be interested in are out of my skill ability and are even more competitive (ie: professional athlete, movie director). I have to stick with trading for now. I just have to figure out how best to get there. Other people I respect have told me to just take anything, but I'm not ready to be miserable just yet.

 

UCLA is a great program and the school is well respected. That being said, a lot of quants go into risk management. Trading is pretty meritocratic and a degree won't always do it. You have a masters in math and relevant experience. I would imagine networking or trying to get interviews that way would be the optimal and cheapest route. Assuming you can't/won't/don't want to do that then UCLA would be your best bet.

 

UCLA would also be by far the best school so I figured that could help. The program is pretty competitive and average starting salary is $100k. I would work for less than half of that to get a trading job though even if I was offered $100k elsewhere. I care more about breaking into trading than my salary at this point in my life.

 
Best Response

I mean keep in mind that you can get MO jobs in risk at or near $100K. Just realize that might be that kind of jobs these guys are getting. I would sit with the career people are really try and understand the data behind the numbers. Like how many interviews did people get, who came OCR, roles they recruited for, etc.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=/company/trilantic-north-america>TNA</a></span>:

I mean keep in mind that you can get MO jobs in risk at or near $100K. Just realize that might be that kind of jobs these guys are getting. I would sit with the career people are really try and understand the data behind the numbers. Like how many interviews did people get, who came OCR, roles they recruited for, etc.

Thanks. I will get in contact with career services. Their employment stats aren't as detailed as Berkeley's and it has me worried. I'm sure risk management is a fairly lucrative career, but it's trading or bust to me. I'm going to be dedicating most of the hours I'm awake to my career so I have trouble compromising on this. I wouldn't mind going to somewhere like Hong Kong or Singapore for a few years if that's where I needed to go.

 

A MSc (especially when you'd be doing a second) won't in itself open any doors, it's just an additional round of recruitment.

On a slightly separate note regarding the risk management debate. Actually, risk management at some places is a very viable career path to trading (e.g. MUSI) as the RM guys know the product very well and if there is an opening the first looks are given to the RM people vs. fresh outsiders. Not saying these transitions are overly common though.

 

Yeah, after speaking with career services, breaking into trading from this program sounds like an uphill battle. It sounds like it could help a little bit, but I'm not sure if spending $80,000 is worth it. I'm trying to figure out how best to break in with no corporate experience at all. I might take John Hull's online course with AFTP (made a thread in the Get a Job section) to help broaden my knowledge of different products. I had a couple of interviews with banks/prop firms in the past and felt ill prepared. All of the interviews were fairly different. Banks seemed to ask more general questions while one prop firm asked more heavy math and another asked mostly brainteasers/probability. It seemed like there was at least one question in every interview that tripped me up.

 

I wouldn't waste 80k then, especially since these people at universities lean toward shooting sunshine up your ass. So an uphill battle probably translates to... Not gonna happen

Its time to investigate Plan B. You've had interviews, got another Masters, did 2yrs of prop. All to no avail, I'd land a good job then pursue it again while gainfully employed. Or just trade on the side while employed and get some nice supplement income.

 
ArcherVice:

I wouldn't waste 80k then, especially since these people at universities lean toward shooting sunshine up your ass. So an uphill battle probably translates to... Not gonna happen

Its time to investigate Plan B. You've had interviews, got another Masters, did 2yrs of prop. All to no avail, I'd land a good job then pursue it again while gainfully employed. Or just trade on the side while employed and get some nice supplement income.

Plan B is to keep working on my trading strategy until I'm thrown out of the house. I'll figure out Plan C once Plan B is no longer viable. It's probably to go live in the wilderness somewhere. I will be applying to more full time positions this fall once recruitment starts up in a month or two.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/what-is-the-capital-asset-pricing-model-capm>CAPM</a></span> Arbitrage:

If you haven't gotten to later rounds with prop firms then either A) you haven't been studying enough or B) you just aren't cut out for the position.

I got to the 3rd round with Jane Street. People said that, that's pretty good, because they're supposedly a lot tougher than firms in Chicago. I've only had one interview with a bank and they asked me a question about portfolio management which really through me off, because I was applying for a trading position. I was asked what percent would I put into each asset class and I actually heard Warren Buffet earlier in the day on CNBC say 80% stocks, 20% bonds so I told her that and she was like do you have any of your own thoughts and I didn't have much to say other than if I were older I might prefer more fixed income, since I'm younger I can ride the stock market. I emailed her a couple of weeks later to follow up and her email account was apparently deleted. I've had a couple of other interviews. One guy at a Chicago prop firm I interviewed with was a very rude jerk (I'll leave the name out) and it didn't help my performance, the other firm said they typically only hire people without trading experience for the internships. I did not realize I wanted to be a trader until I got out of college. Before I graduated undergrad I thought I might start a business, but I didn't have anything to sell, and I realized that the overhead would be too much for me.

 

Your posts reek of desperation. You have an opportunity to get a good job that can fund trading as a hobby on the side but you wont take it because you're afraid of being unhappy at a job you haven't even tried yet. Face the fact that some of these jobs take as few as the top ~1% of applicants, a percent you're unlikely to be a part of.

 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/what-is-the-capital-asset-pricing-model-capm>CAPM</a></span> Arbitrage:

Your posts reek of desperation. You have an opportunity to get a good job that can fund trading as a hobby on the side but you wont take it because you're afraid of being unhappy at a job you haven't even tried yet. Face the fact that some of these jobs take as few as the top ~1% of applicants, a percent you're unlikely to be a part of.

They reek of desperation, because I am desperate to break in. What is wrong with somebody who really wants to be a trader? Why shouldn't I be passionate about what I'm going to do most of my waking hours? What I'm wondering is how best to position myself to get in that pool of applicants. Ok, a UCLA MFE may not work. I got a 790Q/450V/4.0AWA GRE. I'll probably have to improve that before applying to better programs. Would they help set me apart? I'm not sure. Maybe I need a top PhD in something like Statistics? I'm going to try and network more to find out what firms are looking for and focus on how to be better prepared for the interviews.

 

If you're already in the industry, then wont be as effective. Could use it for a foot in the door kinda thing. But then that'll be one expensive 'foot in the door'

Check out some of the forums I posted in the other thread for more info about MFEs.

 

I am actually debating doing an MSFE program right now in order to look into a trading career, but its very Quant-oriented. It seems to me that there are far fewer quants out there than bankers, just curious if they are compensated for their strong technical skillset? Also, does anyone know how placement for jobs are done for MSFE programs - are the trading positions usually for the Analyst or Associate positions? Would the program really advance the title of the trading position given an Asset Management and ER internship?

 

Somebody asks this question at least once every two weeks.

Yes, trading desks at banks and hedge funds recruit from Masters and MFE programs and job placement is phenomenal.

The catch is that good programs are EXTREMELY competitive to get into (acceptance rates of 15% or lower are the norm). Not to overgeneralize but the classes are usually comprised of Indian and Chinese brainiacs with 4.0 GPA's in Computer Science and Math, who most likely already have banking/trading experience.

Moral of the story: if your don't think you have the cred to work in trading already, then you probably don't have the cred to gain admission into these programs either.

 

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