Middle Class Earners

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/09/14/romney-m…

Mitt Romney says the middle class in America is $200-$250K per year.

Personally I believe that $200k a year to be in middle class is probably fair and I do not see what all the uproar is about. Truthfully however, I think that what class you are in is more about mindset and lifestyle then it is a certain income amount. Middle class in New York is inevitably more expensive then in other areas.

I would be interested to hear what other WSO members view as being the lines between lower, middle, upper middle and upper class. Surveys often state that 99% of the population view themselves as being middle class, meaning that most people have differing opinions.

My current distinctions would be as follows:

Lower Class - Unable to meet day to day living expenses and needs.

Lower Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses.

Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses and save for a reasonable retirement.

Upper Middle Class - Doctors/Lawyers/Professionals etc. that have a higher level of prestige, drive nicer cars, have a vacation home and will do so into retirement.

Upper Class - The point at which you can live an upper middle class lifestyle and no longer need a day job.

 

Definitely agree with the way you defined each of the classes. Keeping that in mind, I would NOT say that $200k-$250k is simply middle class. Upper middle class, yes. (So technically still middle class?). I'd say that middle class income, as in those who are able to meet day to day living expenses and save for a reasonable retirement, is probably in the range of $80k to $120k. That of course would represent a national average. In NYC $80k is damn near poverty level.

 
oR3DL1N3o:
Definitely agree with the way you defined each of the classes. Keeping that in mind, I would NOT say that $200k-$250k is simply middle class. Upper middle class, yes. (So technically still middle class?). I'd say that middle class income, as in those who are able to meet day to day living expenses and save for a reasonable retirement, is probably in the range of $80k to $120k. That of course would represent a national average. In NYC $80k is damn near poverty level.

How do Big 4 accountants in NYC survive on 50k a year?

 
oR3DL1N3o:
In NYC $80k is damn near poverty level.

How so? Unless you're supporting someone else, 70k is more than enough to live in a decent 2br apartment (with a roommate), go out a few times a week, pay someone else to do your laundry and still have enough left over to put 10k into a 401k and save another 10k in a personal account.

 
reformed:
oR3DL1N3o:
In NYC $80k is damn near poverty level.

How so? Unless you're supporting someone else, 70k is more than enough to live in a decent 2br apartment (with a roommate), go out a few times a week, pay someone else to do your laundry and still have enough left over to put 10k into a 401k and save another 10k in a personal account.

Like we said. Damn near poverty level.
 

Maybe you're right, but you run into a big problem trying to rectify this with the fact that most Americans consider themselves to be "middle class." Plenty of them, depending on the definition, aren't.. but the notion of the middle class american dream (car in the garage, chicken in the pot) is pretty darn stubborn. For an illustration, look at all of the rural white Americans who vote Republican when (arguably) it is in their rational self-interest to support Obamacare and other re-distributive policies.

In short - telling families who pull ~$100k/yr that they are "working class" is a recipe for pissed-off voters, who have invested their psychological self-worth in a romanticized self-conception/identity.

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."
 
MogulintheMaking:
My current distinctions would be as follows:

Lower Class - Unable to meet day to day living expenses and needs.

Lower Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses.

Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses and save for a reasonable retirement.

Upper Middle Class - Doctors/Lawyers/Professionals etc. that have a higher level of prestige, drive nicer cars, have a vacation home and will do so into retirement.

Upper Class - The point at which you can live an upper middle class lifestyle and no longer need a day job.

QFT. Good job - haven't seen it broken out like that before. This makes sense - however the caveat that Upper Middle Class in NYC metro is certainly Upper Class in Nebraska, etc [ie: you can work in NYC for your career and then retire in Nebraska as a king].
 
Art.Vandelay:
Any family pulling in $200k a year who thinks they're middle class needs to get in touch with reality.

Agreed. If you're family pulls in more than 95% of other families, you are no where close to the median.

Competition is a sin. -John D. Rockefeller
 
Hooked on LEAPS:
Art.Vandelay:
Any family pulling in $200k a year who thinks they're middle class needs to get in touch with reality.

Agreed. If you're family pulls in more than 95% of other families, you are no where close to the median.

You are if you're a white family in New York.

 
Hooked on LEAPS:
Art.Vandelay:
Any family pulling in $200k a year who thinks they're middle class needs to get in touch with reality.

Agreed. If you're family pulls in more than 95% of other families, you are no where close to the median.

My first thought when reading this post

 

>> Any family pulling in $200k a year who thinks they're middle class needs to get in touch with reality.

My family pulled in around that...and yet it felt completely middle class as you see on TV. Technically, in Canada, it was top 98% but didn't seem that way.

The truth is that money, for a family of 4 who are very prudent about saving for a good retirement wasn't any sort of models/bottles that is for sure. I had lots of advantages, but no one bought me a car, I worked every summer home from university and worked through high school where I was required to save 50% of everything for university.

It is all perspective.

 
TylerT:
>> Any family pulling in $200k a year who thinks they're middle class needs to get in touch with reality.

My family pulled in around that...and yet it felt completely middle class as you see on TV. Technically, in Canada, it was top 98% but didn't seem that way.

The truth is that money, for a family of 4 who are very prudent about saving for a good retirement wasn't any sort of models/bottles that is for sure. I had lots of advantages, but no one bought me a car, I worked every summer home from university and worked through high school where I was required to save 50% of everything for university.

It is all perspective.

It must be perspective, because, pre-recession, my dad never touched $100k a year supporting a family of 4, and I considered us upper-middle class. And that was with vacations coming once every two years, no vacation homes, etc. A vacation home and nice cars arent middle class living characteristics. Im imagining what our lifestyle would be like if his salary was doubled, and there is no way I couldve considered us middle class then. If you have nice cars, take multiple vacations a year, have a summer home, and still plenty in savings, you're not middle class.

However, now that I own a large importing and exporting of fine latex goods company, I am of course upper class by even the most lavish definitions.

--Art Vandelay

 
MogulintheMaking:

Upper Middle Class - Doctors/Lawyers/Professionals etc. that have a higher level of prestige, drive nicer cars, have a vacation home and will do so into retirement.

Profession and prestige aside (my dad retired before most kids are starting out), my parents had those at just above the median salary. A holiday home or three and a cushy retirement really aren't that big a deal.

Social Class has little to do with money, and more to do with mentality.

 

Romney is saying that $250K is middle class because that is where Obama draws the line on taxes.

Like many have already said it strongly depends on where you live. In the rural Midwest I'd say $40-50K is middle class and yet you might need $250K to be middle class in New York, if not more.

Which begs the question, should politicians make blanket laws for the entire country?

 

Almost everyone in the US considers themselves middle class. Obviously, not everyone can be when you have people with different incomes. If you think $250K is middle class, you need to get out of your bubble. It is not middle class. It's not rich, but it's way above the average.

 
SirTradesaLot:
Almost everyone in the US considers themselves middle class. Obviously, not everyone can be when you have people with different incomes. If you think $250K is middle class, you need to get out of your bubble. It is not middle class. It's not rich, but it's way above the average.

Consider everyone in society thinks of college as being a natural progression from high school but that only 50% of Americans graduate high school and of that chunk, only 30% go onto college (including community college). Of that, half major in non business/STEM subjects which won't get you a job. Pretty much everyone who gets a bachelors and majors in something relevant aimed at getting you a desk job ("skilled" desk job, not cable salesman) ends up making 100K-125K per year at the worst (in the middle of their careers). In my opinion, I agree that 250K ISN'T middle class but the notion that 50K is middle class in any decently industrialized part of America is highly misleading.

 

People here have a LOT of selection bias in their lives. Everyone here pretty much grew up in statistically upper middle class homes (household income > $100,000) and had ample educational / social opportunities.

The thing about people's social lives is that they inherently gravitate towards people like them and end up socializing / marrying people of their same income / education / social level (in general).

"Middle class" in the US is statistically somewhere around $50,000-60,000. However, as others have said, it really depends on where you live and who you hang around. You aren't going to feel very middle class trying to live in NYC on $60,000, while making $60,000 in Omaha is probably ok.

 

Guys,

How about instead of making up facts that fit our worldview, we actually use real data.

Median household income in the Northeast US in 2011 was $54K.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_wealth/cb12-172…

There is a huge difference between being top decile earner and being "rich". Someone making even a million dollars per year, isn't rolling in private jets or anything. But to say that earning $250K per year is middle class is not grounded in facts. Middle class means you earn in the middle several deciles of income. Which is about $50K per year, believe it or not.

 
SirTradesaLot:
Guys,

How about instead of making up facts that fit our worldview, we actually use real data.

Median household income in the Northeast US in 2011 was $54K.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_wealth/cb12-172…

There is a huge difference between being top decile earner and being "rich". Someone making even a million dollars per year, isn't rolling in private jets or anything. But to say that earning $250K per year is middle class is not grounded in facts. Middle class means you earn in the middle several deciles of income. Which is about $50K per year, believe it or not.

Does "middle class" reflect a standard of living or does "middle class" mean 50th percentile averages? What if there were more people in the middle class in the 80's and 90's and less now? I think middle class means to be able to pay for your children's education, save for a good retirement and to be able to live comfortably while splurging here and there. If we went back to the 90s and 80s were median wages were lower, we would still be able to see that there was less inflation and that costs for a middle class lifestyle was lower. Back in the 1950's, 35K a year would probably be considered middle class but now in order to replicate that lifestyle, one needs to at least have 80K in a suburban area, and more if in an area either with higher real estate costs or near a city.

TLDR - 50th percentile used to be good enough for a "middle class" lifestyle, but now it takes 85th percentile and up to replicate that due to shrinking middle income jobs and rising low wage/high wage jobs and also due to rapid inflation

 
Hopkins55:
SirTradesaLot:
Guys,

How about instead of making up facts that fit our worldview, we actually use real data.

Median household income in the Northeast US in 2011 was $54K.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/income_wealth/cb12-172…

There is a huge difference between being top decile earner and being "rich". Someone making even a million dollars per year, isn't rolling in private jets or anything. But to say that earning $250K per year is middle class is not grounded in facts. Middle class means you earn in the middle several deciles of income. Which is about $50K per year, believe it or not.

Does "middle class" reflect a standard of living or does "middle class" mean 50th percentile averages? What if there were more people in the middle class in the 80's and 90's and less now? I think middle class means to be able to pay for your children's education, save for a good retirement and to be able to live comfortably while splurging here and there. If we went back to the 90s and 80s were median wages were lower, we would still be able to see that there was less inflation and that costs for a middle class lifestyle was lower. Back in the 1950's, 35K a year would probably be considered middle class but now in order to replicate that lifestyle, one needs to at least have 80K in a suburban area, and more if in an area either with higher real estate costs or near a city

The average person could never pay for their kid's education through college. Never in the history of the world.

I think it's important to remember that the average person spends significantly more than they used to years ago, because they are buying more and higher quality things. Things that are now considered necessities really aren't (cell phones, Air conditioning, microwaves, LCD tvs, Internet access, iPads, laptops, organic arugula from Whole Foods, etc.). The average person lived in a home that is significantly smaller than the houses they are living in today and they owned 1 car.

Then, think about things like health care. Everybody complains about the massively rising health care costs, but few stop to ask "why is it increasing so much?". Certainly, if you went in to the doctor's office and received 1950's quality health care, it would be significantly cheaper than what we are paying today, since you wouldn't have to worry about paying for MRIs, effective drugs, robotic surgery, etc. However, would you really want to go back to the 1950's standard of care?

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not truly inflation that's driving the higher cost of living, but that people are consuming significantly more stuff now, that they see as mandatory, but it's really not.

The average person in this country today is living better than someone from the upper class 50-60 years ago. So, the point is, middle class needs to be defined as the middle set of earners, because otherwise you are always shooting at a moving target.

$250K is doing much better than average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class

 
MogulintheMaking:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/09/14/romney-middle-income-reaches-t…

Mitt Romney says the middle class in America is $200-$250K per year.

Personally I believe that $200k a year to be in middle class is probably fair and I do not see what all the uproar is about. Truthfully however, I think that what class you are in is more about mindset and lifestyle then it is a certain income amount. Middle class in New York is inevitably more expensive then in other areas.

I would be interested to hear what other WSO members view as being the lines between lower, middle, upper middle and upper class. Surveys often state that 99% of the population view themselves as being middle class, meaning that most people have differing opinions.

My current distinctions would be as follows:

Lower Class - Unable to meet day to day living expenses and needs.

Lower Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses.

Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses and save for a reasonable retirement.

Upper Middle Class - Doctors/Lawyers/Professionals etc. that have a higher level of prestige, drive nicer cars, have a vacation home and will do so into retirement.

Upper Class - The point at which you can live an upper middle class lifestyle and no longer need a day job.

this is fucking retarded. 'class' has nothing to do with this qualitative classification that you pulled out of your ass. everyone of your distinctions is based off behavior and has NOTHING to do with the amount of income. a caseworker attorney that makes 45k is NOT upper middle and there are plenty of wealthy people that cannot meet their obligations who are not even close to lower class. you have no clue what you are talking about.

the median income of a household in 2003 was 45k, how the hell can 5 times that be considered 'middle class'? around 1.5% of households exceeded 250k in 2003...you must have one hell of a silver spoon to swallow this bs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

click the link and scroll down to social classes for a reality check.

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!
 
WalMartShopper][quote=MogulintheMaking:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/09/14/romney-middle-income-reaches-t…

Mitt Romney says the middle class in America is $200-$250K per year.

Personally I believe that $200k a year to be in middle class is probably fair and I do not see what all the uproar is about. Truthfully however, I think that what class you are in is more about mindset and lifestyle then it is a certain income amount. Middle class in New York is inevitably more expensive then in other areas.

I would be interested to hear what other WSO members view as being the lines between lower, middle, upper middle and upper class. Surveys often state that 99% of the population view themselves as being middle class, meaning that most people have differing opinions.

My current distinctions would be as follows:

Lower Class - Unable to meet day to day living expenses and needs.

Lower Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses.

Middle Class - Able to meet day to day living expenses and save for a reasonable retirement.

Upper Middle Class - Doctors/Lawyers/Professionals etc. that have a higher level of prestige, drive nicer cars, have a vacation home and will do so into retirement.

Upper Class - The point at which you can live an upper middle class lifestyle and no longer need a day job.

this is fucking retarded. 'class' has nothing to do with this qualitative classification that you pulled out of your ass. everyone of your distinctions is based off behavior and has NOTHING to do with the amount of income. a caseworker attorney that makes 45k is NOT upper middle and there are plenty of wealthy people that cannot meet their obligations who are not even close to lower class. you have no clue what you are talking about.

the median income of a household in 2003 was 45k, how the hell can 5 times that be considered 'middle class'? around 1.5% of households exceeded 250k in 2003...you must have one hell of a silver spoon to swallow this bs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States[/quo…]

I was asking because of genuine interest in what others would think. The stats lead me to wonder what a "household" with 45k would look like? Would this sample include "single households" or households with no kids? I would love to see the figures on what an average 30 years+ married couple income would like like. I assume it would be nowhere near 45k.

Minimum wage is about 20k per year at reasonable hours. Therefore two people working minimum wage would earn about $40,000 per year. Is a household with two workers earning minimum really the median household in America? That seems outrageous to me.

Also, how do you have a fraction for the mean number of earners in the household? Would this be someone working part time? I don't think growing up in a household with 200k income means you have a silver spoon... just comfortable living. This is why I asked, because I read this statement from Romney and it seemed really quite reasonable to me, which is why I asked because perhaps it is all about persective.

A 45k household income is not comfortable... nor is it even liveable. I think that if you stepped into a neighbourhood full of 45k net income households you would not think that you were walking in a middle class neighbouhood.

 

I would love to compare the annual expenditures of someone making 200-250K compared to someone making 50-60K.

I'm sure they spend their money on the same thing outside of the guy one with 200k owns a home while the 50k earner rents.

with an income of 200K, what people fail to realize is that those folks will try to spend more than they really have more often than not and later feel like they don't have enough. they buy the same things as the family with 50k but maybe the brand that is a couple bucks more expensive, and eventually it all adds up. They may feel like they have to send all of their kids to -prep school -buy the $800-1M house -have 2-3 vacations throughout the year -buy that new BMW/Mercedes

with an attitude like that,they're just trying to keep up with the Jones, in their socioeconomic level, this type of lifestyle can easily make you feel as if you don't have enough. That is part of human nature, we are hardly ever satisfied.

 
Lotin:
I would love to compare the annual expenditures of someone making 200-250K compared to someone making 50-60K.

I'm sure they spend their money on the same thing outside of the guy one with 200k owns a home while the 50k earner rents.

with an income of 200K, what people fail to realize is that those folks will try to spend more than they really have more often than not and later feel like they don't have enough. they buy the same things as the family with 50k but maybe the brand that is a couple bucks more expensive, and eventually it all adds up. They may feel like they have to send all of their kids to -prep school -buy the $800-1M house -have 2-3 vacations throughout the year -buy that new BMW/Mercedes

with an attitude like that,they're just trying to keep up with the Jones, in their socioeconomic level, this type of lifestyle can easily make you feel as if you don't have enough. That is part of human nature, we are hardly ever satisfied.

Right. And if you are able to do things like send your kids to prep school, buy a house around $800k, have 2-3 vacations throughout the year, and buy a new BMW/Mercedes every so often, you are not middle class. You are a top earner, and are living like one.

Again, as a kid when things were good pre-recession, on about an $80k a year salary, my family of four had a nice $300k house, my brother and I very often got the things we wanted, i.e. toys and shit, we went on one vacation every other year to NY to see family, my parents drove new cars, but they were a Dodge and a Chrysler, and they sure as hell didnt pay for my college.

But we were AT LEAST middle class, no doubt about it. We had some nice things, we weren't struggling all the time (once in a while things get tight, happens to everyone), etc. All of our friends and neighbors, with a few exceptions, lived the same way. I cant imagine having more than double that income my dad had supporting a family and considering myself just middle class.

I guess if you grow up with your parents driving brand new cars every two years, going on multiple vacations, and having an enormous college savings for you, you think of it as normal and assume that is middle class. But its not. Its all about what you view as normal, but some peoples view of normal is not on par with the majority of the country.

 
Art.Vandelay:
Lotin:
I would love to compare the annual expenditures of someone making 200-250K compared to someone making 50-60K.

I'm sure they spend their money on the same thing outside of the guy one with 200k owns a home while the 50k earner rents.

with an income of 200K, what people fail to realize is that those folks will try to spend more than they really have more often than not and later feel like they don't have enough. they buy the same things as the family with 50k but maybe the brand that is a couple bucks more expensive, and eventually it all adds up. They may feel like they have to send all of their kids to -prep school -buy the $800-1M house -have 2-3 vacations throughout the year -buy that new BMW/Mercedes

with an attitude like that,they're just trying to keep up with the Jones, in their socioeconomic level, this type of lifestyle can easily make you feel as if you don't have enough. That is part of human nature, we are hardly ever satisfied.

Right. And if you are able to do things like send your kids to prep school, buy a house around $800k, have 2-3 vacations throughout the year, and buy a new BMW/Mercedes every so often, you are not middle class. You are a top earner, and are living like one.

Again, as a kid when things were good pre-recession, on about an $80k a year salary, my family of four had a nice $300k house, my brother and I very often got the things we wanted, i.e. toys and shit, we went on one vacation every other year to NY to see family, my parents drove new cars, but they were a Dodge and a Chrysler, and they sure as hell didnt pay for my college.

But we were AT LEAST middle class, no doubt about it. We had some nice things, we weren't struggling all the time (once in a while things get tight, happens to everyone), etc. All of our friends and neighbors, with a few exceptions, lived the same way. I cant imagine having more than double that income my dad had supporting a family and considering myself just middle class.

I guess if you grow up with your parents driving brand new cars every two years, going on multiple vacations, and having an enormous college savings for you, you think of it as normal and assume that is middle class. But its not. Its all about what you view as normal, but some peoples view of normal is not on par with the majority of the country.

Completely agree with you. The point in my post was mainly to show that a lot of ppl who do not think 200k is more than middle class income, it's because they increase their spendings foolishly.

Maybe the reason I feel this way is because i'm from a household where my combine parents income never exceeded 55K. We're far from rich but i can honestly say my parents managed their income very well in ways to make 55k seem more, and we live in Boston, MA.

I can honestly say 70K even in the northeast can be a good lifestyle if you manage your money wisely. I have no doubts that many of us on this site who have BSD dreams will be making that much by the time we're in our mid 20's. but for the average college educated Joe, i'm sure 60-70K can take them a long way.

 
Lotin:
I would love to compare the annual expenditures of someone making 200-250K compared to someone making 50-60K.

I'm sure they spend their money on the same thing outside of the guy one with 200k owns a home while the 50k earner rents.

with an income of 200K, what people fail to realize is that those folks will try to spend more than they really have more often than not and later feel like they don't have enough. they buy the same things as the family with 50k but maybe the brand that is a couple bucks more expensive, and eventually it all adds up. They may feel like they have to send all of their kids to -prep school -buy the $800-1M house -have 2-3 vacations throughout the year -buy that new BMW/Mercedes

with an attitude like that,they're just trying to keep up with the Jones, in their socioeconomic level, this type of lifestyle can easily make you feel as if you don't have enough. That is part of human nature, we are hardly ever satisfied.

My parents make 200K a year and theres no way we could have afforded prep school, an 800K house or 2-3 vacations per year. More like driving a 40K Mercedes, one small U.S. vacation per year (Florida) a 500K house and an above average public school system. Granted they saved 15-20% of their income for retirement as recommended while the average 50th percentile American saves like 1-2%. Don't equate unnecessary consumption with a "middle class" lifestyle - for me, it's more about a financial cushion that if you get laid off, you can still manage your responsibilities for a while before getting back up. That's what separates middle class from working class (paycheck to paycheck)

 

Let me say this again. $200k is not middle class. Middle class implies that you are in the middle. Being richer than 95% of families is no where near the middle.

For those of you saying "my parents couldn't afford prep school on $200,000 per year." Give me a fucking break. If the words "prep school" are in your thoughts, you are not middle class. Try coming from a family that makes $54,000 per year in NYS, which is actually the MEDIAN household income. I'd say anything within one standard deviation of that number is middle class, STATISTICALLY speaking. I hate to tell you spoiled rich kids this, but there is nothing middle class about going to prep school, driving a Mercedes to school, or having your parents pay for the entirety of your college education.

Sure, $200,000 per year is far from wealthy, but you sure as fuck aren't in the middle class.

Competition is a sin. -John D. Rockefeller
 
Hooked on LEAPS:
Let me say this again. $200k is not middle class. Middle class implies that you are in the middle. Being richer than 95% of families is no where near the middle.

For those of you saying "my parents couldn't afford prep school on $200,000 per year." Give me a fucking break. If the words "prep school" are in your thoughts, you are not middle class. Try coming from a family that makes $54,000 per year in NYS, which is actually the MEDIAN household income. I'd say anything within one standard deviation of that number is middle class, STATISTICALLY speaking. I hate to tell you spoiled rich kids this, but there is nothing middle class about going to prep school, driving a Mercedes to school, or having your parents pay for the entirety of your college education.

Sure, $200,000 per year is far from wealthy, but you sure as fuck aren't in the middle class.

Amen. My car was bought from my summer job, my schooling is paid by scholarships and financial aid, and my family never went on a vacation more extravagant than flying to NY and staying with family. We were at the least middle class. By some of your standards, we were apparently upper-lower class at best.

 
Hooked on LEAPS:
Let me say this again. $200k is not middle class. Middle class implies that you are in the middle. Being richer than 95% of families is no where near the middle.

For those of you saying "my parents couldn't afford prep school on $200,000 per year." Give me a fucking break. If the words "prep school" are in your thoughts, you are not middle class. Try coming from a family that makes $54,000 per year in NYS, which is actually the MEDIAN household income. I'd say anything within one standard deviation of that number is middle class, STATISTICALLY speaking. I hate to tell you spoiled rich kids this, but there is nothing middle class about going to prep school, driving a Mercedes to school, or having your parents pay for the entirety of your college education.

Sure, $200,000 per year is far from wealthy, but you sure as fuck aren't in the middle class.

Yeah, anyone that says $200K - $250K is middle class is living in an alternate reality. Completely insane.

 
TNA:
Relinquis:
America needs a president who understands the pain of having been unemployed.

God willing Obama will be experiencing that come next year.

Obama hasn't been the best president ever, but he's still miles ahead of Romney. Look I understand your opinion, but Obama=Romney on almost all of the issues except that Romney will create a bigger deficit by cutting taxes and will want us in another war with Iran. Romney is a flip flopper and is just a rich guy who wants the presidency to go along with his HLS/HBS degrees. The Democrats may not be very trustworthy but Bill Clinton - best president of our generation who cut taxes and regulations, balanced the budget against the will of his own party - does support the administration's policies and feels as if they will go in a similar moderate direction with entitlement reform, defense cuts AND tax increases on the top 1% in order to pay down the deficit for the long run.

 
PetEng:
Relinquis:
America needs a president who understands the pain of having been unemployed.
You need to shut the fuck up?
Oh my! Someone is swearing at me on the internet... Are you trying to argue that high levels of unemployment aren't a major economic and social problem in the US?

I would argue that sustained high levels of unemployment are a threat not only to the long term economic well-being of Americans and your ability to produce/consume (a utilitarian perspective à la John Stuart Mill), but more importantly that it is a real threat to the social contract with all that that entails for democracy, state authoritarianism, crime, etc...

What point were you trying to make?

 
Relinquis:
PetEng:
Relinquis:
America needs a president who understands the pain of having been unemployed.
You need to shut the fuck up?
Oh my! Someone is swearing at me on the internet... Are you trying to argue that high levels of unemployment aren't a major economic and social problem in the US?

I would argue that sustained high levels of unemployment are a threat not only to the long term economic well-being of Americans and your ability to produce/consume (a utilitarian perspective à la John Stuart Mill), but more importantly that it is a real threat to the social contract with all that that entails for democracy, state authoritarianism, crime, etc...

What point were you trying to make?

Aren't you the guy that actually thought the carried interest deduction was proper tax policy? I'm saying your opinion is dogshit.
 
PetEng:
Relinquis:
PetEng:
Relinquis:
America needs a president who understands the pain of having been unemployed.
You need to shut the fuck up?
Oh my! Someone is swearing at me on the internet... Are you trying to argue that high levels of unemployment aren't a major economic and social problem in the US?

I would argue that sustained high levels of unemployment are a threat not only to the long term economic well-being of Americans and your ability to produce/consume (a utilitarian perspective à la John Stuart Mill), but more importantly that it is a real threat to the social contract with all that that entails for democracy, state authoritarianism, crime, etc...

What point were you trying to make?

Aren't you the guy that actually thought the carried interest deduction was proper tax policy? I'm saying your opinion is dogshit.
très vulgaire...

My opinion on the carried interest taxation was more subtle than that. i don't want to rehash it here but it was, broadly speaking, that there is no substantive difference between a PE partner's carried interest and a management team's stock options so taxing them differently was inconsistent. Even if I had argued that it is proper tax policy, i don't see how that warrants your abusive language and superficial attack.

So we can get back to a mature discussion rather than trading ad hominems do you want to clarify if you have a position regarding the importance of unemployment to this thread's topic (i.e. the post you attacked) or do you not think it is relevant?

 
Relinquis:
PetEng:
Relinquis:
PetEng:
Relinquis:
America needs a president who understands the pain of having been unemployed.
You need to shut the fuck up?
Oh my! Someone is swearing at me on the internet... Are you trying to argue that high levels of unemployment aren't a major economic and social problem in the US?

I would argue that sustained high levels of unemployment are a threat not only to the long term economic well-being of Americans and your ability to produce/consume (a utilitarian perspective à la John Stuart Mill), but more importantly that it is a real threat to the social contract with all that that entails for democracy, state authoritarianism, crime, etc...

What point were you trying to make?

Aren't you the guy that actually thought the carried interest deduction was proper tax policy? I'm saying your opinion is dogshit.
très vulgaire...

My opinion on the carried interest taxation was more subtle than that. i don't want to rehash it here but it was, broadly speaking, that there is no substantive difference between a PE partner's carried interest and a management team's stock options so taxing them differently was inconsistent. Even if I had argued that it is proper tax policy, i don't see how that warrants your abusive language and superficial attack.

So we can get back to a mature discussion rather than trading ad hominems do you want to clarify if you have a position regarding the importance of unemployment to this thread's topic (i.e. the post you attacked) or do you not think it is relevant?

Nope. Don't you have some other election to worry about in a country that you actually have citizenship?
 
Best Response
PetEng:
Relinquis:
...

So we can get back to a mature discussion rather than trading ad hominems do you want to clarify if you have a position regarding the importance of unemployment to this thread's topic (i.e. the post you attacked) or do you not think it is relevant?

Nope. Don't you have some other election to worry about in a country that you actually have citizenship?
I followed Greek elections earlier this year (not a citizen) for pretty much the same reasons. My concern is firstly out of intellectual curiosity and secondly to understand the economic ramification of politics on countries / regions were we have billions of euros/dollars invested. Greek elections / politics matter to investing throughout the EuroZone. US politics (and issues relating to the middle class) matters to investing in America. Political economy matters to investing.

Since when does one need to be a citizen of a country to discuss matters of political economy? It's not like I'm running for president, trying to vote or campaigning for a political party. Is your political/economic ideology so fragile that you don't want pesky foreigners discussing it politely on a finance forum?

 
freeloader:
If you need to be in the top 2% of income to be in the middle class, it just shows how screwed the rest of the country is.

There seem to be 2 perspectives; your either in the "middle class" if your a 50th percentile income earner or you define "middle class" as a type of lifestyle equivalent from Nebraska to New York regardless of differences in income. Yeah and considering how much larger income inequality has become from the start of the 60's to now, I think that it is justified to say that the middle class has been decimated and now you need to be "rich" - 70K+ in urbanized areas to be considered what was once known as "middle class."

I'd love to hear devil's advocates

 

We have a cult of the middle class. Everyone considers themselves to be a part of it. We praise "middle class values". Politicians want to help the middle class. If you are poor, you aspire to it. If you are wealthy, you don't want to be seen as elitist.

My family usually lived off ~$20,000 in a high cost of living area in CA. I have no doubt that they identified as middle class, even if we were just barely able to afford food.

Of course, your location does make a difference...but even in NYC, 200k is respectable income (moreso for a single person than a household). This is Romney quote is just going to be torn apart by the media. Also not likely to go over well in Ohio (median household income: 47k, median HOUSE: 163k).

 

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