Military Officer MBA Prospects

I'm about to get out of the Military after 5 years, and I am planning on applying for MBA Programs in Fall of 2012. I've done some perusing of the boards and realize quite a few of you have a good handle on the admissions process of the top-tier MBA Programs out there. I'll list the facts and my goals below. Any helpful comments are more than welcome!

History:
Low GPA from top 15 undergrad (albeit non-ivy): 2.9*
*Basically I was a Finance Major solely for the fact that I enjoyed the subject matter, I worked 3 jobs while in school to ensure leaving with zero debt and money in the bank...this obviously led to a sub-par GPA
Passed CFA L1 first time while in the Army
Extracurricular Activities a plenty during undergrad
Top Rated Infantry Officer throughout my career
Commanded 47 Soldiers in Combat
Currently Commanding 225 Soldiers and NCOs in the States
Currently taking the Manhattan gmat course (looking to kick the GMAT's Ass in Sept)

Goals:
-Tuck right now is creeping towards being my top choice, though HBS, Yale, and most of the other Ivy's are obviously still up there and I will definitely apply there as well.
-Post MBA I'm admittedly all over the board, I'd love to get into consulting, find working at a Trading Desk/Working at a Hedge Fund would be incredible, but also have a desire to begin my own business....By Interview/essay time I will have this solidified, but an MBA will benefit any of the paths above.
-I will take the CFA Level 2 Exam in June of 2013 (Cannot do it this summer due to Military Training requirements)

Questions:
1. How much is that low GPA going to limit my choices? Am I setting my sights too high and should prepare for more safety schools?
2. For those in the post MBA Job Market, does a lack of prior, tangible Finance work experience hinder those with a military background to such a degree to make a career in Finance non-viable (i.e.- would I have to go in at a ground-level entry position in the same way as someone just coming out of undergrad?)
3. What gmat score (Ballpark) should I be shooting for to adequately compensate for my sub-par GPA?
4. I know Tuck has a fantastic program which supports veterans; how do the other Ivy's MBA Programs stack up, comparatively?

Thanks again!

 

I swear 15-20 years from now Wall Street is going to be run by all former military.

Score above 700 on the GMAT and you'll be in good shape, your military experience trumps your undergrad GPA. Score above 730 and you'll be golden

"One should recognize reality even when one doesn't like it, indeed, especially when one doesn't like it." - Charlie Munger
 

Fall 2012 is not a possiblity for any of the MBA programs you're going after. Top MBA programs typically don't have rolling admissions and the rounds for applying have passed (typically Oct/Nov = Rd 1, Nov/Dec = Rd 2, Dec/Jan = Rd 3, Jan/Feb/March = Rd 4). As far as handicapping your chances of getting in poetsandquants.com has a whole series on that and GMATclub.com is all about people gauging where they're at and what chances they have. If I were handicapping: your GPA is on the low side even from a top school it will take something good to overcome this but your military experience can easily convey leadership and a high GMAT (probably looking at 710+) mixed with good extra currics, recs, and interview skills will get you in to your target schools.

 

Whoops... Just realized that you meant you were applying during fall 2012 and not going to school in Fall 2012. My bad.

Side note: Apply during the early rounds for the schools you really like and later rounds for the safeties. Tuck has an early action option in September (I think) which gives you the best chance (but you will be required to go there should you get in)

 

I appreciate the responses! I have looked into the early action option, and that is my most likely course of action.

And yes, I should have made it more clear: I am applying this coming Fall.

Does anyone have experience with the early action program and how that might possibly boost a candidate's application? I saw an interview on youtube with a Tuck Admissions Officer in which she stated something to the effect of, early action/visiting campus (because it is in the middle of nowhere) shows a more compelling sense of commitment to Tuck. Does this commitment necessarily translate into a much more favorable perception of an application? Or just possibly a deciding factor between two candidates of a similar background?

 

Tuck is big on having you visit because of what you just said. They know it's in the middle of nowhere and they want you to be comfortable with this. One thing that's relatively unique to the Tuck application is that they extend interviews for everybody, if you elect to have an interview that isn't on campus you will have to explain why you chose that option. For Tuck, interviewing on campus pretty much only puts you on an even footing with the other applicants (it can only be seen as a negative if you don't interview on campus/visit).

 

This is the wrong crowd to be asking, as most of the guys on here were born with silver spoons tucked up their asses. I'd reach out to former military MBAers at the top 10 schools and ask them about their experiences and the application process overall, as that is the group to which you'll be compared when submitting your app. There are plenty of military guys at the top schools, and I'm sure they'd be willing to speak with you.

Good luck!

-Kellogg alum

 

Thanks for the responses. WSO being as large as it is, there has to be a few other military guys on here. I've seen some past threads written buy guys in similar situations, so I'd love to get some insight from any of them/anyone who has some knowledge of their process.

 
Rayndian:
Thanks for the responses. WSO being as large as it is, there has to be a few other military guys on here. I've seen some past threads written buy guys in similar situations, so I'd love to get some insight from any of them/anyone who has some knowledge of their process.

Hi Rayndian, I've gone to school with ex-military types, on Wall St. with ex-Military guys (and gals, really!), and coached ex-military guys on b-school stuff. First of all, thank you for your service. I mean, you rock.

I know you asked a bunch of questions, and I'd like to direct you to this great post from a guy I follow regularly called ArmyJMO http://www.armyjmo.com/2012/03/09/veteran-clubs/

He researched all the top schools and met with many of the vets clubs, so take a look at his full report. I think he's done outstanding research.

As for your GPA, it's a bit of a red flag -- and some of it depends on how your transcript reads. Admissions officers look at trends and look at what courses you took, and what kind of intellectual curiosity you showed. Your military leadership, of course, is huge, but they want to make sure that you can actually contribute to the class academically, and the CFA level 1 will take you part of the way there.

You will need to get over 80th percentile on your quantitative score to be competitive at any of the top schools. Right now that means getting a 48 or 49. They also like to see that you are balanced. And... I am maybe the only one on the planet who says this out loud, if you are a native speaker of English, you have to get a 5.5 or 6 on the writing.

Military guys blow everyone out of the water on leadership, no doubt about it. And there's loads of empirical evidence of ex-military MBAs from all branches and all schools to do well on Wall St. and in consulting. If you are organized about your plan -- and in the case of Tuck, spend a lot of time up there and with Tuckies, and keep your eye on your goal, you should find success.

Keep us posted on your progress, Betsy

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

There are a few of us Military guys lurking around but, I think, the vast majority are pre-MBA/aren't getting an MBA so the above advice might be a good way to go.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 
Best Response

Rayndian,

Your instincts are right. Your GPA could be an issue, but I think you've done a couple of things already and can do one more to overcome. First, you've got a valid reason for having a lower GPA and that can come out in your application. Second, you've taken the CFA and passed which demonstrates that you probably have the grey matter to succeed in school. The final thing that needs to happen is you need to do well on your GMAT. Hit the school's median score and you'll leave zero doubts.

I will tell you, however, that as important as your scores is your personal narrative- those things that come out about yourself in the application questions and in your interviews. Being military does not make you stand out. Being infantry does not make you stand out. Leading in combat does not make you stand out. Focus on the things that separate you. Specific experiences, interests, and goals. Weave it all together into a compelling story and you'll do fine, and with the right scores, you'll do fine. This advice stands for all looking at going into B-school.

Coming out of a top school you'll be competitive for finance jobs. No worries there.

They all have husbands and wives and children and houses and dogs, and, you know, they've all made themselves a part of something and they can talk about what they do. What am I gonna say? "I killed the president of Paraguay with a fork. How've you been?"
 

Wow guys! Thanks for all of the support/answers!

I will definitely keep you updated. I'm knocking out the Manhattan GMAT Prep Course right now, and will take my first GMAT in August. I'm looking to get in touch with a few of the Veteran clubs around the various top B-Schools and have had a decent amount of response.

Now it comes down to pulling myself away from 200 phenomenal Soldiers for a while to get stuff rocking to prepare for life without a uniform.

 

Rayndian,

I was just in your shoes last year and I know the feeling. As others have said, your GPA is going to be a hindrance, but it can be easily overcome for the 20-11 ranked schools. For the top 10 schools it will be a bit tougher and require a very high GMAT and good essays. Those will be the two points you should absolutely put an extreme amount of focus on.

The main points of the application would be: your leadership experiences - check your recommendations - check (I mean, who's going to get bad recommendations?) your GPA - set, nothing you can do about it GMAT - up in the air essays - up in the air

I didn't spend any money on GMAT classes (did well, may be different in your situation - definitely take an online simulation) or essay consults, but looking back I wish I had worked on my essays more. I applied to HBS, Wharton, LBS, and MIT as my four schools. I received no answer back from HBS, interviewed but not accepted at Wharton, accepted with scholarship to LBS, and accepted with scholarship to MIT.

Why didn't I get into HBS and Wharton? My essays. I listed my applications above in the order I submitted them. As I submitted them I thought each of them was excellent. I even had several other military officers proof read my essays (MISTAKE!). My HBS essays were garbage. When I went back to review them after getting the ding, I thought to myself "what a bone head! How was my essay writing that bad??? I wouldn't even admit myself!" Comparing those essays to my LBS and MIT essays, I saw that I had progressively gotten MUCH better as I went along the process. Lesson - don't necessarily apply to the hardest and most desirable school first, though you should do so NLT the second round. You should get some practice with some safety schools. You as a military officer are far too used to the military writing style, which is NOT what they want to see. Also have non-military (preferably English majors) review your work. They will give you a different perspective as they will not understand some of what you write and will catch your militaryisms.

Then Wharton was kind of a fluke - I had to do my interview over Skype (I was in Afghanistan) and my interviewer obviously had better things to do. Second line he said to me - literally - "I know you're really busy so we can keep this short. I think we can be done in about 15 minutes." i.e. I have a pizza in the oven and you're keeping me from it. Lesson - go AWOL from Afghanistan to do the interviews in person.

 

So just took the GMAT...740 (49Q, 40V). Not sure how the verbal got that low, may have just been fatigued bc I had been consistently scoring in the 47-50's. I'm looking for some quality advice. Retake to achieve a higher score? Or let my essays and the rest of my app do the talking. Right now I plan on applying to:

HBS Kellog Tuck Darden Duke UNC

Basically in that order of preference. Any constructive help is absolutely appreciated. Thanks!

 
Rayndian:
So just took the GMAT...740 (49Q, 40V). Not sure how the verbal got that low, may have just been fatigued bc I had been consistently scoring in the 47-50's. I'm looking for some quality advice. Retake to achieve a higher score? Or let my essays and the rest of my app do the talking. Right now I plan on applying to:

HBS Kellog Tuck Darden Duke UNC

Basically in that order of preference. Any constructive help is absolutely appreciated. Thanks!

I think you should be congratulated! You got well over 80% percentile threshold in both categories, right? (guessing you got an 83% math and 90% verbal

http://www.mba.com/the-gmat/gmat-scores-and-score-reports/what-your-percentile-ranking-means.aspx

Of course your essays, recommendations, and the way you present your military experience in the resume will matter, but you have certainly done well enough to be considered seriously by the schools in your list. (Unless I am missing something??)

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

sorry about the duplicate post -- cannot delete

Betsy Massar:
Rayndian:
So just took the GMAT...740 (49Q, 40V). Not sure how the verbal got that low, may have just been fatigued bc I had been consistently scoring in the 47-50's. I'm looking for some quality advice. Retake to achieve a higher score? Or let my essays and the rest of my app do the talking. Right now I plan on applying to:

HBS Kellog Tuck Darden Duke UNC

Basically in that order of preference. Any constructive help is absolutely appreciated. Thanks!

I think you should be congratulated! You got well over 80% percentile threshold in both categories, right? (guessing you got an 83% math and 90% verbal

http://www.mba.com/the-gmat/gmat-scores-and-score-reports/what-your-percentile-ranking-means.aspx)

Of course your essays, recommendations, and the way you present your military experience in the resume will matter, but you have certainly done well enough to be considered seriously by the schools in your list. (Unless I am missing something??)

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

What's going to hurt the most is the question of when they ask " Why did you go Army and not Marines?" All kidding aside, I had a deplorable Undergrad GPA and had at best an OK GMAT and got into some schools that I thought were total long shots. After 5 years in the Marines I was very nervous about entering B-School as it is such a huge transition and I only separated a matter of weeks ago, however I have quickly realized..its tough yes but nothing compared to the shit I've been through when I was in the Marines and I'm sure it's the same for you. Like M Blank said..just sell your story in your essays and interview and share how your UNIQUE military experience has influenced you and you'll be golden.

And FYI, the Vets network is very strong I've come to realize in the MBA circles.

S/F.

 

I'd be hesitant to attend an MBA program directly after undergrad even if they did "let you". By the time recruiting comes around you'll have spent the last ~5 years only in school where as most of your colleagues will have had some professional experience in the last two-ish years (at the time of interview) that may make it hard for you to be a competitive recruit. I'd try to see what sort of position you can get out of undergrad, plenty of consultancies hire plenty of candidates who don't have MBAs.

 

Hi dawsokj1988 First, thank you for your service. You military guys are so amazing.

Second...Rather than ask the MBA program or admissions only, I would suggest you reach out to the Vets Club at UT Austin and see what they say about the environment for service members like yourself, but more importantly, the recruiting situation for someone with your experience. https://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/MBA/Full-Time/Student-Life/Diversity/Mil…

Third, but no less helpful...There's a wealth of resources also on business-related career choices and paths through other Vets organizations. I'm participating in a conference run by Service2School (http://service2school.org/) that will address these very questions! (here's information on the program, if you happen to be in Seattle....) http://service2school.org/conferences/

Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 
Betsy Massar:

Hi @dawsokj1988 First, thank you for your service. You military guys are so amazing.

Second...Rather than ask the MBA program or admissions only, I would suggest you reach out to the Vets Club at UT Austin and see what they say about the environment for service members like yourself, but more importantly, the recruiting situation for someone with your experience. https://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/MBA/Full-Time/Stude...

Third, but no less helpful...There's a wealth of resources also on business-related career choices and paths through other Vets organizations. I'm participating in a conference run by Service2School (http://service2school.org/) that will address these very questions! (here's information on the program, if you happen to be in Seattle....) http://service2school.org/conferences/

Service2School has lots of resources, in-person and web-based that can help you figure out your timing.
Betsy Massar Come see me at my Q&A thread http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/b-school-qa-w-betsy-massar-of-master-admissions Ask away!
 

Betsy, thank you for those resources. I'm actually located on Whidbey Island currently, but my tour is up very soon and I'll be driving cross country to Texas.

IvyLeageVet, in the Navy I work in aviation. More specifically, the avionics systems within jets. I started as a tech, became a production manager, and now a personnel manager. I've been involved with the Navy's version of lean sig sigma and I ran a project to help modify the engineering of a firing system to reduce failure rates while deployed on the Eisenhower. The concern is that the majority of military members I read or hear about going to MBB are prior officers, not enlisted.

 
be5378:

Hi guys, I'd prefer to keep this short and sweet for a variety of reasons (chief among them anonymity). After spending close to 15 years in both the various special operations forces (in the military) and other government agencies, I'm currently considering attending business school. My gmat score is a 727 and I had received a 3.7 GPA for my BA from a top school in the NYC area.

Do I stand a chance at any of the top schools?

Thanks.

Have a strong feeling if this were your actual background, you'd know who to call.
 

I think PT programs are out of the question. That would be useful if you put in your 20 years and wanted to get out and start your own consulting company or if your network was so strong that you could land a job without career services. This isn’t your case, so I think FT is for you.

Like falcon said, 29 is not too old for an MBA. I think it boils down to how happy you current are in the USMC. I would lean with option 2. If you’re having a kid now (congratulations), this may not be the time to move and cut off a solid source of income and (presumably) take out lots of loans. I know the GI Bill won’t cover all your tuition and fees, but it certainly helps.

Another thing to consider is timing. Right now is too late to start applying to start an MBA in the fall, so at the earliest you could start would be next fall–18 months away. I’m not sure how that would affect your timeline, but it is something to consider.

Best of luck. Business schools love officers due to their leadership experience and to see someone not from consulting or banking. Get a 700+ on the GMAT and you should have a pretty good chance at a top 10 MBA program.

 
Brothree:
One thing of note, I am married and my wife is having out first (of hopefully many) son this year, so keep this is mind as you pass judgment. As cool as I am with crashing at my parents' house and catching loops at the golf club I grew up caddying at to pay the bills, she would not be cool with this.

So here are my options as I see them:

1. Get out, go full time MBA
Pros: program, brand, recruiting
Cons: positive net worth turns into j-curve, quick

2. Stay in another tour, get GI bill benefits to vest, get out, FT.
Pros: same as above
Cons: will be 29 when I start program... Too old?

Options 1 and 2 are really your only options to get to where you say your ultimate career goals are. In most cases I would say option 1 but being married and having a kid on the way changes things. Will your wife be working or a stay at home mother? In most cases the extra GI Bill benefits aren't worth it. You serve 3 additional years and get what amounts to probably $60,000 in benefits. Now compare the difference in salary as an officer for 3 years to the money you would make in finance over those 3 years and that $60k is nothing. Be aware that BAH benefits are pro-rated for only the dates you are in school so you get maybe 7 months worth of BAH each year which can change the cost/benefits analysis a bit. However if you have to support a wife and at least 1 child then the BAH and tuition payments might make a big difference in quality of life. Also how much do you have saved up to live on? Your max loan amount will be determined by the school's estimate (which are always really low) and won't take into account your wife and child. So you will not be able to finance 100% of your tuition and living expenses for the 2 years.

As for the age, I started my MBA at 28 and most of the military at my M7 program are between 28-32 so you would be perfectly average.

 

I'm going to have somewhere between 30-35k set aside for the program before I start, but I am just looking down the road at this point. I'm planning to study for the GMAT a bit during my next deployment in what little down time I may have, but the earliest I could start would be fall 2015 and latest (with COA 2) fall 2018.

Did anyone find the military types who were older having a hard time falling into Associate roles based upon the later responsibilities they had while serving?

 

Based on your goals I would say option 1 or 2.

If you are concerned about being 29 at the start, don't be. That's not all that old in general and only very slightly above average for vets starting. You won't have any age issues. Just be prepared to have some sort of reasonable answer during admissions interviews for why you decided to stay in for one more tour. ("I really wanted to take this X opportunity in Japan" "My wife had just started a job and we didn't want to transition yet," etc as applicable)

One thing about the GI Bill ROI calculation. I would agree that 60k isn't a ton in the long run, but if you go somewhere that offers good Yellow Ribbon participation in addition to the GI BIll, it can be significantly more than that. And, provided a bit of savings, you can definitely end up with a 100% debt free top 15 MBA. If your wife is stay-at-home, that's a very nice thing to have. Even if she isn't it still is. Aside from Yellow Ribbon, many schools who do not participate or don't participate fully in YR, do offer targeted scholarships to Vets designed to make them more appealing given that some of their competitors do participate. I have heard Booth does this for nearly all Vets from a friend who went there, and I understand some other programs do as well. Talk to the financial aid offices of the schools you're considering to find out their exact participation in YR and try to feel them out for if they have any unofficial policy of offering a certain amount of scholarships to vets. You can also get in touch with their respective Veteran student organizations. Get all the details, because some of them participate 100%, others $X amount, others cap it at X students per year who can recieve, others do not, etc.

Also, on money, consider doing reserves during your time in school whether option 1 or 2. It's about 10k/yr extra pocket change for a minimal commitment. Nearly as importantly (esp with family) you can get some very affordable TriCare as a reservist compared to the cost of whatever health care program the MBA program offers for students. Ends up usually about a 12-15k difference per year between doing or not doing reserves for your MBA time. I was skeptical whether it was feasible with the time commitments of the MBA, recruiting, and reserves, but I've spoken with students doing it who have assured me that it's not unreasonable to meet the requirements of both. I wouldn't necessarily make the same argument for post-MBA, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Provided you don't take a bonus and sign a set length contract, it's much easier to resign a reserve commission than the ungodly drawn out process of leaving AD.

 

29 definitely isn't old. A fellow vet at my program is a RETIRED O5 from the Navy. He got a great Fortune 500 gig, no problem. Not exactly what you were concerned about with an associate role, but plans may change.

Id be careful in the reserve side. Seems like the reserve weekend always falls where it hurts you the most in recruiting. And we've got a guy graduating here soon and headed out on a deployment. Definitely not a great way to start your new MBA career. With a wife and kid Tricare means more to you than it did to me, but GI Bill will cover your healthcare at least (pays for school plan).

Luckily for you, designation isn't as deep as it once was (I got offered it when it was a 55% cut rate!) So if you start your MBA soon it should at least be your choice. Good luck and keep us posted. I'm wrapping my MBA up real soon, feel free to PM if you've got any questions.

 

Based on what you wrote here, you have no relevant experience (things you did on your own time don't count, good and all but you're going to be going up against people younger than you, with experience, and likely did the same things on their own time), you are older than the typical candidate, and you're married. The last two points are only brought up because depending on the spot, your ability to be worked to the bone will be important and being married at the prime age when people start having kids will put that in doubt. I know some may disagree on this.

How much additional debt will you have to take on for an MBA? Do you have any idea of what your chances are to land a spot in a top program? If you can't afford to live in NYC on a first year's salary, besides taking out additional debt, how are you going to afford to live with no salary at all? What type of/what fund(s) are you interested in? Do they actively recruit at any of the schools you have a chance to get into?

Honestly, based on what you wrote I think your best chance is with keeping in touch with these fund managers, do as much additional networking as you can, and plan your extension/MBA plans on that. Your biggest weakness is lack of experience. Extension = another year that you could have either gotten relevant experience or half of your MBA done. You already have a non-standard background and no experience so your best chances are going to come from someone recognizing your potential and seeing that you are hungry. That's only going to come from networking.

 
whatwhatwhat:
Based on what you wrote here, you have no relevant experience (things you did on your own time don't count, good and all but you're going to be going up against people younger than you, with experience, and likely did the same things on their own time), you are older than the typical candidate, and you're married. The last two points are only brought up because depending on the spot, your ability to be worked to the bone will be important and being married at the prime age when people start having kids will put that in doubt. I know some may disagree on this.

How much additional debt will you have to take on for an MBA? Do you have any idea of what your chances are to land a spot in a top program? If you can't afford to live in NYC on a first year's salary, besides taking out additional debt, how are you going to afford to live with no salary at all? What type of/what fund(s) are you interested in? Do they actively recruit at any of the schools you have a chance to get into?

Honestly, based on what you wrote I think your best chance is with keeping in touch with these fund managers, do as much additional networking as you can, and plan your extension/MBA plans on that. Your biggest weakness is lack of experience. Extension = another year that you could have either gotten relevant experience or half of your MBA done. You already have a non-standard background and no experience so your best chances are going to come from someone recognizing your potential and seeing that you are hungry. That's only going to come from networking.

Thanks for the response, I do appreciate it.

Absolutely understand that I will be older. Wife understands; as of yet we have no children and she's committed to working in NY for her own career aspirations.

I do think that there's a misconception that Hedge Funds = Investment Banking Analyst. The former is about doing value added work, and the latter is about paying your dues. In Iraq and Afghanistan 16-20 hour days 7 days a week were rather common - did that for 2+ years with my spouse physically separated. 12 - 14 hours 5 days a week (and occasionally 6 or 7) but with the opportunity to go home shouldn't be impossible.

As for debt, that would be heavily dependent on where I went to school. I qualify for the post 9/11 GI Bill and many of the schools have the Yellow Ribbon program, but they vary widely. I have considered applying for a few job out there that help defray the costs of the MBA and guarantee at least 1 internship provided I can get into the school. The most helpful part is the monthly living allowance. But in raw number terms, here's a quick breakdown of a few:

School Year 1 Tuition & Fees Year 2 Tuition & Fees GI Bill Tuition Assistance (2 Years) Yellow Ribbon Slots Yellow Ribbon Amount Total Out of Pocket Costs (2 Years) Living Allowance per month

Columbia $58,750 $58,750 $35,000 32 $2,500 $72,500 $2,754 Chicago (Booth) $55,872 $54,252 $35,000 10 $4,540 $56,964 $1,566 Harvard Business School $61,396 $61,396 $35,000 60 $10,000 $47,792 $2,274 New York (Stern) $51,942 $51,942 $35,000 25 $10,000 $28,884 $2,754 Stanford GSB $56,928 $56,928 $35,000 Unlimited$9,000 $42,856 $2,076 UPenn (Wharton) $61,082 $61,082 $35,000 30 $10,000 $47,164 $1,623

Clearly, Columbia GSB is by far the most out of pocket by almost $20K at the next highest outlay school and nearly $30K vs all others and that would certainly have to go into my value consideration vs an analyst job and doing Stern at night, as an example.

Berkeley, Michigan, Virginia, and UCLA would all be completely free as they are public schools. The only other schools guaranteeing 'free' out of pocket costs are Fuqua and Johnson. Tuck and Kellogg are very generous and the out of pocket cost would be less than $15K.

 

The above advice is good and very realistic, but I disagree with the first paragraph. Plenty of funds are looking to develop someone over time, not just work them to the bone. This section you wrote:

Leading up to the week that I accepted the overseas job, I had been cultivating relationships with a few hedge fund managers and sought their counsel - a common piece of advice I got was get the international/life experience, skip the MBA completely, pursue the CFA, and learn Python programming. They also recommended trying to start directly at a HF rather than try to navigate the as-of-yet uncertain maze of what Sales/Trading desks at the big banks will look like post the major regulatory changes. Although they personally said they would speak to me when I returned home - 2 years is a long time and there are no guarantees.

Since before I was commissioned I've been trading equities/options on my own and have managed to grow the portfolio to a fairly comfortable level (market hours are friendly in SWA); I have all of my transactions documented and can verify performance figures. As an undergrad I was also active in my school's investment association which at the time was running the largest student run fund in the world, and studied in the UK my junior year that concluded with a short internship in London at the LME and a week survey at the Bank of England.

...is the main section relevant to your job search. The PMs you spoke to gave you good advice. What you have done in your own time, your investment philosophy and experience, is absolutely relevant. For fundamental investing, your international experience and unique perspective could be valuable as well. Now, you have to be realistic, it's not going to compare well against someone who has been in the industry for a long time, so you might be entering at a lower level than most people your age. But if you are knowledgeable and skilled and willing to learn/adapt, you have a real shot at getting a seat. A few things to keep in mind:

  • Business school is largely about (1) building you network and (2) gaining access to on-campus recruiting. It's a good option if you're not able to get the role you want through your existing connections.
  • The larger funds that recruit at business schools would likely be represented at any top school, so I wouldn't knock Stanford on that basis. But Columbia does have a dedicated value investing program. And being in New York helps.
  • Accepting a lower starting salary at a fund that is willing to invest in you is a good move at any age. And on an opportunity cost basis it compares very well with going to business school. If you can even consider investing 200k++ in b-school over two years then you can afford to be paid like a junior analyst for a couple years while you're learning the ropes.
 

I'd dare say this is for all or a lot of the vets moving to Wall Street. The number of Associates is way lower than the number of Analysts to start with, and throwing in the military experience factor...

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

These numbers reflect about a dozen top tier schools. The schools that you expect to be turning out a lot of bankers are turning out a lot of bankers. The schools that don't turn out that many bankers, didn't turn out that many bankers. This data does not have the school break down for a reason, if it were included the natural flame war would likely occur. These are just stats that I am putting out there for the vets who are thinking about picking up an MBA, so that they know what the picture looks like on the other side.

Of the vets I know who recruiting banking, everyone ended up with a job at a good firm.

 

[quote=Husky32]Wtf OP - 3 different sets of stats?

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/what-shot-do-i-have-at-a-top-5-mba http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/which-mba-programs-am-i-competiti…]

Good find.

Yeah, wallstreet, what the hell? If you haven't done any of these things then why don't you just ask for advice on what you should do after school instead of misrepresenting yourself? I know this is an internet forum, and in theory, you can be whoever you want to be, but have respect for everyones time on here and the community will be more likely to help you.

 

Are you just testing the waters to figure out how to lie on your resume?

That's really fucking low you scumbag. Also, at least at my school (one of the ones you're asking about), the adcom has the veteran's club take a look at military applications to make sure their experience makes sense. You can't fake that as a civilian, there's so much random stuff that end up on your resume in the military. And for all admits they still have fact checkers run through references and experiences before formally extending the offer.

I should just forward this link to the admissions office anyway. 710 GMAT, 3.62 GPA, triple major from a non-target.

 

Just make sure you get your Gunny how imperative it is for you to get into M7 and for him to please look over your application. They are really good at helping junior officers with these things and have amazing attention to detail.

 

If you're trying to ascertain whether you should join the military to improve your chances of getting into an MBA program you should really reconsider. Especially if you want to be an infantryman. I had a triple major(different degrees, 3.69GPA), a higher GMAT(740) and spent 6 years as an enlisted infantryman (including combat tours) and I got into several M7s (during the last round too).

If you're going to be an infantryman, you aren't going to coast through 4 years. Everyday is a grind. And lets not forget that you could be killed or wounded in a serious manner which will change your whole life outlook. It is not just something you do to "check the box." You have to want to serve if you want to be a good leader. People's lives depend on your ability and commitment... it's not just money. You don't want to walk through life knowing your lack of dedication cost people their life.

If you're lying, adcom will sniff that out (and likely call all the other adcoms). Every Veteran that is considered for admissions is going to be vetted by current Veterans like somebody above said. And we can sniff out the bullshit a mile a way. Some schools have Veterans on staff that interview other Veterans... Not to mention that you will have to submit a DD-214 to a background checking agency.

 

For consulting? Wouldn't recommend taking a year off. It's bad for both the MBA application and on your resume later.

With your profile you shouldn't have a problem getting into Cameron Brook's program or using LucasGroup. Both of those placement firms will offer significantly better opportunities than their peers.

Also look into applying to Deloitte as an experienced hire. You won't be coming in at the MBA salary but it's good for the resume. Ditto for any peer companies you can get into.

Look at Bulge Bracket ops. Granted it's not the front office jobs everyone on here wants but those jobs are easy for military officers to get into (especially if you have a good GPA from a top state school) and simply having the name of a prestigious firm on your resume will, for whatever idiotic reason, make adcoms like you more.

It's also not as good for your resume but there's a lot of options if you're willing to work overseas. GE is a good example. Their officer placement program has some shitty locations but the jobs and compensation are good. P

 

PM me to talk more, but I'd say you are better off going to a 20-30 ranked school. Don't go part time.

I'm not in banking, so can't talk about how competitive of a candidate you are overall. But I think you'll be fine with your experience + good GMAT+ top 20-30 program.

There are programs and employers that are specifically targeting to grow their veteran cohorts.

 

Send me a pm and we'll talk more. I also went to a big ten undergrad and am a current officer heading to an MBA business schools">M7 next year. I think you may be selling yourself a bit short; a 3.1 isn't terrible and special operations units are impressive regardless of officer or enlisted.

 

Are you kidding me? I know a couple people who got into top 20 programs, some with stats that were slightly worse than yours.

And yes MBA business schools">M7 might be a bit of a stretch but give it a shot anyway. Also look at Emory/Vanderbilt (target schools for the BB groups in Charlotte), the Texas Schools (ditto for Houston/Dallas), Georgetown, Carnegie Mellon, Kelley, and (if your recommendations are great) Tuck.

I personally know vets from Kelley, Emory, Carnegie, Ross, and Georgetown who got into BB and EB jobs. It's very possible....IF you want it bad enough to hustle.

More importantly if you can get into a reputable program (Don't go below top 25 if you can help it) you'll find that the vet connection is extremely powerful. Those guys help each other out aggressively and from what I've witnessed they seem to be much more candid with each other than the average.

 

From my observations, any military is looked upon quite favorably. Obviously if you're a seal that has cache but I have a good friend at HBS who went to west point and told me that, though his military experience is very very average (mostly just hung out in San Diego), MBA admissions people thought it was amazing just because they don't know any better. We have a navy fighter pilot in my class, and there was a SEAL 2 classes ahead of me, but it seems military in general carries a lot of weight.

 

In short, you're in range for the top 8 schools that they're worth giving a serious shot (apply to 4-6 schools between H/S/W, Kellogg, Sloan, Booth, Columbia, Tuck).

Only concern is your GRE, which translates to a 690 GMAT -- not absolutely fatal, but it'll be a handicap. Thankfully your GPA is strong by any standard (not just compared to vets), so that's why your GRE isn't going to be a deal breaker. However, if you want to maximize your chances, you may want to spend some time either retaking the GRE, or taking the GMAT and shooting for a 720+ (or the GRE equivalent of a 720+). Given that it takes around 6-10 weeks total to complete a batch of applications 4-6 schools, you still have time to focus solely on taking the exam in the next 2-3 months or so, and then turning your full attention on your applications in mid-July (or as late as August) with plenty of time to complete them for the October Round 1 deadlines.

Good luck

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 

Thank you for your quick response. I'm definitely more than willing to take the GMAT. I'll spend this summer studying for it. Would you recommend the MGMAT materials?

Also, will a lack of substantial ECs be a hindrance or do my experiences make up for some of it?

 

I think you should consider your competition, and why you need an MBA after MPH. MPH is very specific and MBA is general management--requires lots of management experiences. I understand that you're a veteran, but as the wars came up during last decade, many soldiers have war-related experiences, which dilutes your competitive advantage.

 
shuang19:

I think you should consider your competition, and why you need an MBA after MPH. MPH is very specific and MBA is general management--requires lots of management experiences. I understand that you're a veteran, but as the wars came up during last decade, many soldiers have war-related experiences, which dilutes your competitive advantage.

Thank you for your response. I just got out of the military and the MPH is a way for me to get some closure for my experiences. I also believe that it will be applicable to what I want to do in the future (biotech/pharma) and is another thing that I'm passionate about. I also do believe that I have a lot of management experience - it is just not in the traditional setting.

As a veteran, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of war-related experiences and it diluting our competitive advantage. You're attempting to compare apples to oranges by lumping all servicemen together.

I'll definitely keep your post in mind and you raised some interesting points. Thanks again.

 
procrustes:

Sorry for another unrelated comment, but is it true that you guys have the highest attrition rate in training out of all the special ops groups? I started watching the documentary haha

I believe so. It's something that I never really cared about, but I think it is somewhere around 90%.

 

Adcoms are quite familiar with the different branches of the military. They know the service academies, ROTC, as well as the service commitments within the different branches. While they may not know it as intimately as someone who actually served, they know more than most, and certainly enough to separate one applicant from another.

Alex Chu www.mbaapply.com
 
MBAApply:

Adcoms are quite familiar with the different branches of the military. They know the service academies, ROTC, as well as the service commitments within the different branches. While they may not know it as intimately as someone who actually served, they know more than most, and certainly enough to separate one applicant from another.

Thanks for the clarification!. it's great to know a little more

 

I think your biggest hurdle will be coming up with a story that pulls everything together. You're a radiation tech, cool. Are you passionate about healthcare and an MBA is the missing link between where you are and bettering the world of healthcare? If you have a story and possibly a higher GMAT I'd think you have a shot.

 

Don't apply to IU, Vandy, Emory or Wisconsin if you want to do banking or consulting. If you are able to hit 680-700, can tell your story in your apps, you should be able to get into a couple of these: Mich/UVA/Duke/Stern/Cornell/Tuck/Yale. Pick a few of those. Target a few reach schools based on your preference for location (Booth/Kellogg/Columbia). Pick a safety like UNC since you mentioned that you only have one shot.

Also, I would not recommend a PT program. We get e-mails from PT program students and they are largely ignored. There are too many qualified candidates from FT programs where we already have established pipelines.

 

a solid choice may be in top 15. 15-25 is a big dropoff unfortunately. your profile (academic) might not be a superstar for the first half of Top 15, but you can spin your vet experiences into a reliable professional in future.

[quote="M7 MBA, iBanking. Top MSF grad. AntiTNA. Truth is hard to hear! But... "] [/quote] [quote="DickFuld: Yeah....most of these people give terrible advice."] [/quote]
 

There's a guy who occasionally posts on here, "militarytobusiness" who has a great blog on this (pops up quick in google searches). He does a really nice job of breaking down the costs for the MBA and other things I wanted to know as a vet, I would seriously spend an hour just browsing through that site to get a good background.

 

I'm a vet who is graduating from an MBA program this May, headed into a M/B/B consulting gig. Feel free to PM me to chat more. I went to a public school, so free tuition + BAH + school scholarship.

My short, public answer is to pay a little extra and go to the best school you can. Odds are, as a vet it won't be as expensive as you think. Think of it this way: there are civilians who value the school enough to pay sticker price. Are you going to balk paying a fraction of that?

 
John-Doe8:

I'm a vet who is graduating from an MBA program this May, headed into a M/B/B consulting gig. Feel free to PM me to chat more. I went to a public school, so free tuition + BAH + school scholarship.

My short, public answer is to pay a little extra and go to the best school you can. Odds are, as a vet it won't be as expensive as you think. Think of it this way: there are civilians who value the school enough to pay sticker price. Are you going to balk paying a fraction of that?

While this is certainly true for those eligible for 100% of the GI Bill, there are a lot of military candidates looking to get out of the military once their initial commitment is up. If they are ROTC Scholarship or Service Academy grads then they are likely only eligible for 40-50% of the GI Bill, if anything at all. That works out as a nice chunk at a public school, but at a private one it's only about 10-20k per year (still nothing to scoff at of course).

 

Would like to hear more on this topic as well. I am a recently separated vet who's in an MFE (public school). I was enlisted and now am 100% eligible for post 9/11. The pay has been decent if you have enough savings or are doing part-time jobs etc. Since I'll have some left-over of the G.I. Bill after the MFE, I've been thinking about MBA myself.

 
pumpkinjuice:

Would like to hear more on this topic as well. I am a recently separated vet who's in an MFE (public school). I was enlisted and now am 100% eligible for post 9/11. The pay has been decent if you have enough savings or are doing part-time jobs etc. Since I'll have some left-over of the G.I. Bill after the MFE, I've been thinking about MBA myself.

Don't go to school if you have a good gig lined up post MFE. Experience is far more important than another degree.

 

I am a vet as well and plan on getting my MBA, 2-3 years down the road and still have about 17-18 months left of my post 9/11.

There are some top 30 FT programs that offer 100% with the yellow ribbon and close to 100%. Off the top of my head, I know Cornell is extremely receptive towards vets, and as long as you get accepted you can attend Cornell free as a vet. Also I am pretty sure Duke covers about 90% with the yellow ribbon for vets.

Here is a link for 2014-2015 schools in NY participating in the Yellow Ribbon. Note that Cornell is still unlimited on the Yellow Ribbon. If you want other states just go back a page to take a look.

http://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/yellow_ribbon/2014/states/ny.asp

Here's a link to Johnson School of Business (Cornell's) veteran outreach.

https://www.johnson.cornell.edu/About/Veterans-at-Johnson

twitter: @StoicTrader1 instagram: @StoicTrader1
 

Beast Mode, thanks for sharing the information. I wish I had this kind of information when I was searching for grad school programs. My program's curriculum is very advanced and quality of teaching is outstanding. However the brand name is not there. Thus the thought from time to time to rebrand by getting some Ivy on the resume.

 

Go at full price. It never makes sense to delay just for the sake of the GI Bill. If you wait a year you get 50% eligibility, this equates to at best $40k over the two years you are in school. In turn you delay your career change by an extra year, you earn $50k-$60k in the military while forgoing a year of post MBA employment making $120k-$200k. Not to mention there is no guarantee you will be re-admitted a year later given that schools don't allow deferring unless you get a non-vol 365 deployment.

 
MilitaryToFinance:

Go at full price. It never makes sense to delay just for the sake of the GI Bill. If you wait a year you get 50% eligibility, this equates to at best $40k over the two years you are in school. In turn you delay your career change by an extra year, you earn $50k-$60k in the military while forgoing a year of post MBA employment making $120k-$200k. Not to mention there is no guarantee you will be re-admitted a year later given that schools don't allow deferring unless you get a non-vol 365 deployment.

That reasoning definitely makes sense. It's just tough to swallow that debt though.

 

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"There are only two opinions in this world: Mine and the wrong one." -Jeremy Clarkson
 

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