Civilian Career and Military Reserves
Good Morning,
I hope some of you could shed some light on this topic. Just to provide a small background, I just graduated college with a degree in business concentrating in finance and entrepreneurship. I'll be leaving for Marine OCS Seniors this Monday and will become a commissioned officer July 11 - ceteris paribus. I'm currently on an AD (active duty) contract and would theoretically strive for the Intel field. However, as of late, I've been leaning more and more towards beginning my career in the civilian world as well. I also strongly believe in the citizen soldier, but that's another topic in itself.
If I were to switch my contract from AD to reserves, how would employers look at my resume. The general feedback I've received thus far has been negative and that the service itself is a detriment to a civilian career. It seems it's possible if you already have a career, but starting out seems nearly impossible. Anyone have any experience with this at all?
P.S. Anyone who has questions about Marine OCS, what to expect, the process, etc.. I can provide guidance on that - prior to ship and afterwards.
Thanks,
I'm an 0311 reservist. My boss is coo wit it. He was an Army arty ocifer though and a total bro. I'm considering OCS after I graduate. Wasn't eligible initially on account of dem dere poor youthful decisions.
Yo what are my chances of getting to fly jets if I go AD Officer in a few years? 3.9 GPA, over 300 PFT, 96 ASVAB, good boy during enlisted, quite handsome and would look gr8 in a flight suit, etc.
It sounds as though you're well-invested in your future career on active duty. If what you're interested in is finance and you don't have internships, a proper network, etc., I believe it would be wasteful to not go on AD. Remember that USAF careers in general, when developed appropriately, can yield excellent paths toward a civilian career. If after a few years of service you feel that it's time to move toward civilian life, your experience will lend itself to MBA programs and, often, to many jobs that don't require an MBA.
Actual military folk should chime in here...
I have two finance internships, 6-months each, but in operations roles both times. Haven't deeply tapped into any network yet.
Then this depends on where you think you can make progress more quickly and what you're more passionate about. My opinion - and this is totally subjective - is that you should go ahead with active duty. While you could turn your internships into something good, I wouldn't count on breaking in to an M&A or markets-oriented role with just those two and no significant network. If you come from a non-target school (no bank recruiting), it would likely take you months and perhaps upwards of a year to land a front-office internship at a small firm and eventually land a full-time offer.
In hindsight, I regret not having joined the military. Here's my recommendation, keeping in mind that we don't know you too well: go active for a few years, kick ass wherever possible and do a MBA in 4-5 years. It's usually better to be excellent at one thing than to be mediocre at many. I believe that the potential struggle to find a great full-time job (and the risk of not doing so and landing in something you don't like), coupled with the responsibility of reserve duty every few weeks could make a career in business difficult for you right now.
Keep reaching out to people in business who are current or former reserve. I think they'd be best poised to guide you on this one.
Thanks for responding. I did graduate a non-target (think BC/BU). Your analysis, from what little you know, is spot on. I've reached out to multiple former and current officers and a good percentage say active duty over reserves. However, this depends on their role, whereas reserve officers like reserves, active duty officers would not want to go reserves. I'm also interested in the opinion of those in hiring roles who see reserves; especially those who have no military experience. Most of the information on the internet pertains to enlisted, I've found little information for those with degrees.
I'm not an ex-military guys but I've worked with a few, including bankers, PE and execs at the portfolio/operating level. They all had done active duty, ranging from the 4-6 years to pay for college to a guy who spent 20 years as a Marine fighter pilot including being a Top Gun instructor (he's older, around 60 and the coo of a decently sizes public company now). They all bring a discipline that you just don't see in us non-military guys and they can roll with the ups and downs better than anyone: I guess a deal blowing up or a bad quarterly earnings report isn't that big of a deal when you've been under fire or had to ditch your A4 over North Vietnam.
I think the active duty gives you chops that you may not get as a reservist. A couple of guys I've known left AD and went right into too MBA programs but I believe they had some pretty impressive leadership duties and combat decorations. But, and I'm thinking of one friend in particular, got out, went to a top MBA program and ended up at Lazard and has done really well. Military guys also tend to stick together and look out for each other when they're in the business world. The former Top Gun guy for example has mentored and really looked after younger guys out of the military and has pushed for them to move up the ranks quickly, even though they missed out on the business world for most of their 20's. I'd say its important to exploit that network and stay in touch with older former guys you served with in the Corp.
I couldn't tell you the best thing to push for while on AD (intel vs something else) but you should be able to figure that out by searching the web and talking to people.
And thank you for serving. Best of luck and watch your six.
Glad this is here, I'd rather think about the military going into the weekend than do any work.
First, I was active duty so I don't have any direct experience w/ reserves. If you're referring to how being a reservist will conflict with your job, I have to give the annoying "it depends" answer. Anecdotally, I don't think it's a problem with most employers, and as a resume stamp, I would consider it favorable in all cases.
If you're talking about any type of reservist 'stigma,' I wouldn't sweat it. I knew a guy who unfortunately was KIA while in an 'easy' reservist role, anyone with an internet connection knows reservists fight the same wars and face the same risks.
One thing I can say from experience, and I don't know if this applies to you, but I lost motivation going into TBS because my college buddies were going into the corporate world, and it hurt my performance. What I mean is keep your eye on the task at hand and kick butt, whether you end up staying AD or going reserve. The business world will still be there when you EAS.
Have fun in Quantico sexy, it's nice this time of year :). Give us a status update once you're back.
@GoldenCinderblock don't go AD officer without a flight contract. I think there are tests involved, but tell them you want to fly, you get that in writing and then in TBS when other guys are worried about MOS, you're pretty much set. @FormerHornetDriver probably has better/more accurate info though
Well I think those are impressive stats, and I would expect both the GPA and PFT to impress whoever you speak to. Again, I'm speaking a little out of my comfort zone, but I did take some sort of flight aptitude test in college and I believe that, in addition to an interivew, would have secured me a flight contract (I ended up a grunt instead).
I think what you've listed will definitely get you "in the door" though and then you'll have to interview well.
IF you want to be in the military, I would say to go AD at this point. Going straight reserves without the AD experience I think you'll be at risk of never really feeling like you were in at all. Reservists certainly do activate (esp Marines) but even that is becoming a bit less frequent. Just punching your weekend a month and two weeks a year isn't really going to give you anything all that amazing in terms of development in my opinion. It sounds like you go to a decent undergrad, and provided you have a decent GPA, maybe some ECs and then go do 4-6yrs as an intel officer in the Corps, I think you'd have a very legit shot at a top 20 MBA program.
I had a ho-hum 3.3 GPA from a solid school with a ROTC program, did 7 years AD in the Navy, beat the medians on the GMAT and am headed to a top-10 full time program now. This is not an uncommon path. From there, the most common routes taken are gen management development tracks, consulting, and banking for ex-military MBAs, but you are definitely not limited to those. Regarding money, are you currently ROTC? If you're not, you can get 100% post 9/11 GI Bill benefits after 3 yrs that you can apply to your future MBA if that's what you decide to do. If you are getting money from the military for your undergrad, you'll have to stay in longer to qualify for any additional education benefits.
I would disagree about the service itself being a detriment to a civilian career. It certainly does not need to be. Just depends on how you do it, which order, what you do while you're in, etc. However, if you went the Reserve route, I think it could definitely impact your concurrent civilian career. It of course depends heavily on the specific firm you land at. While legally they can't hold it against you, that does not mean that there won't be impacts. It's not that they have anything against it usually and they might even initially say they support it. But imagine a scenario where some deal needs a weekend of work to close and guess what, that's your drill weekend. Now your boss is in a jam and no matter how much he supports the military, he's not going to be real happy with you at that moment. And who can blame him? When you're starting your first job, whether civilian or military, you need to be working your ass off to make a good impression and do what it takes to build up some credit among your coworkers. If you're in finance or consulting, they just don't seem very compatible with an ongoing career in the Reserves. There will always be work/Reserves conflicts and I think it would be tough to balance at times when already under the stresses of a demanding job.
Bottom line is this though. If you are weighing this decision because you're not sure you want to be in the military full time, then don't do it. Go Reserves and make the best of it. There is absolutely no shame in that and chances are good you'll have opportunities to activate if you want to take them. Or, you might get voluntold at some point too, so there's always that (another downside of Reserves and civilian employment compatibility).
Good luck at OCS. Hoorah and all that.
Thanks for the information Sir. I appreciate your perspective. I, as well, finished with a 3.3 GPA and what I believe are good extracurricular activities, but that's not for me to judge. I also took no money while undergrad and have gone through OCS on my own so the GI Bill is still an option at EAS. I whole-hardheartedly agree with doing something all the way or not at all. I have no qualms about serving AD, as I would rather prefer that. However, there is an option where if you graduate TBS (The Basic School) top 10 or 20% I can't remember and graduate your MOS school in the top "x" percent, you will be activated for 1 year to become a more experienced reserve officer - an interesting offer. I ask because my dad served in the AF. He say he feels behind his peers in terms of experience, salary, etc. For reference, he was communications NCO during Desert Shield - he works as a computer programmer.
I definitely get what your dad is saying and think that can be the case for a lot of people in the military. But, I also think it was likely a bit different for him as an NCO than it will be for you. He likely was in much longer than the 4-6 years you are considering and as enlisted his initial years were much different than your initial years will be as an officer. You will be put in positions of leadership much sooner and have a chance to develop some transferable skills right away. As a new officer, you will make more money or comparable to your civilian counterparts excluding some folks like perhaps chemEs, people who land good analyst positions in finance or consulting, and a few others. In general though, the money for a O1-O3 isn't bad. You won't get rich, but you'll keep up with your peers fine. It's after that O-3 level that the pay increases really diverge from where your successful cohorts from a decent school will be. That's also why it's the most common time for junior officers to punch their ticket and do something else so that they can keep pace. (Certainly not the only reason) At that point they're still young enough that they haven't lost much, and they have some good leadership and life experience that translates well into other roles. For a non-officer, this simply usually isn't the case at the 4-6 year experience level. At that level they're usually focused on a very specific skill which may or may not be directly transferable to civilian employment. They may also have some good life experience and transferable skills, but it will be much different than a junior officer at that level in charge of much larger groups and making more impactful decisions.
Since you didn't get money for undergrad, you'd be in a great position to do 4-6 years and then move on and use some GI Bill money to get some additional skills with an MBA. Or, you might love it and stay for 20-30, who knows. Whatever you do, have fun. Oh, and don't waste all your "sirs" on online message boards hahah, you'll need every last one of them at OCS. Best of luck!
I was in the army, and spent time with the reserves.
Reading this thread there is some decent info here, but some misinformation as well. The decision to join the military or not... is very much multifaceted, and which branch/MOS as well as the course of geopolitical events will have a huge impact on your experience, as well as plain luck.
If you want to chat, feel free to PM me.
obtaining interviews while in military reserves (Originally Posted: 09/05/2012)
I attend a target university and I am in the army ROTC program. How would firms view required reserve service when interviewing? Would it hinder my ability to obtain offers because of the time I will miss on the weekends and training in the summer? Would it be more feasible to go active duty and transition to finance/consulting after graduation and discharge?
Thanks for any help
Don't tell them. They can't hold it against you is a crock of shit.
Source I am in the guard.
I will have very little time to gain relative consutling experience as I am required to attend LDAC my junior year. Would a gap in my resume be better than saying I am in the reserves?
If/when they find out and have a problem with this, rip their faces off in court.
Not sure what your plans are, but you can also look for jobs/employers that LIKE guard people. Lady I know is in the Reserve and works at a company that hired her over others because she's in. It depends on the culture of the industry/firm....but finance is pretty bad.
Truthfully, I think that finance is the religion for the materialistic, the people here are unreasonable and should be dealt with as such.
Military Reserves & Career Impact (Originally Posted: 11/24/2013)
I'm in the process of enlisting in the Marine Corps Reserves. I'm also a senior in undergrad. I may go active duty later and put in an officer package, but I'm going Reserves until I finish college at least.
If I choose to stay as a Reservist, what kind of impact will this have on my job prospects? I'll need to take a week off every 3 months for training, but otherwise, I'd be the same as a civilian.
Let's put it this way: Would you hire somebody who had to be gone one week every 3 months assuming they were a great candidate otherwise?
Lets put it this way, you dont knwo what the fuck you're talking about.
First, its once every month. Second, it can actually be more than a weekend as you can have MUTA 6, 7 and 8 that run into the week up to and including being gone thursday.
OP, its not a big deal. If you are an otherwise strong candidate it will not affect you but I will tell you that I get a LOT more looks with the resume where my military stuff is a single line rather than an entire section. There is really nothing you can do. Outside of a true, front office IB role, it will be viewed as nothing but an asset particularly when it comes time to apply to BSchool.
Ha, just realized you were the OP. Oh well. Point stands, get used to the unnecessary and misplaced abuse.
Point remains; join because you want to and think its important. You have to prioritize it over your career, at the very least, in the short term. If you cant do that then you arent read to make the 6+ year commitment.
Can you enlist as a 0321 these days? Or do you have to make the move after SOI?
Joining the Reserves. (Originally Posted: 11/19/2007)
I am thinking about joining the Navy/Air Force reserves as an Intelligence Officer. I have a few questions:
1) Does anyone know anything about deployment probability? 2) Would my group hate me if I did?
It is something I really want to do. I regret not doing it earlier, but now that I have accepted I am really anxious. I have talked to HR, and discussed deferring for training... but I am curous about group rapport if I get deployed. Insight?
Make sure you really think about this decision before you do it. Everyone I know in the military doesn't like being in the military. The glorified image of serving your country seems to be overshadowed by bureaucracy and being forced to do meaningless tasks. I'm not saying it is all bad, but you really need to make sure you are making the right choice. Once you sign the contract they own you for x number of years. I'm guessing you have a decent chance of being deployed too.
Where have I seen this before? At least IB has better comp.
What would your duties include as an "Intelligence Officer"?
Better you than me. In my opinion, it will not be looked highly upon. No one wants to hire someone that won't be there. But that said, you have to do what you have to do. It's hard for me to understand the want to join the armed forces if you aren't forced to do it. I won't get into a philosophical debate about whether the war is a just war or not, but just chosing to leave a good job for battle just seems so foreign to me.
Also, OP you mention that joining the reserves is something you feel like you have/want to do; however, you then ask what your probability of being deployed is, which to me, appears like the type of question a person that doesn't want to get deployed would ask (whereas someone who wants to, doesn't care).
What i'm getting at, is that if you truly want to join the military for whatever reasons, then you should be gung ho about getting deployed, not concerned about the probability.
Additionally, I have a brother who is currently a federal agent, would love to die for his country in battle, rah rah type and although he might not admit it now, he hated his job when he first started and seriously regretted it (as aforementioned, once he was there, the glory of serving your country in some capacity wasn't worth the everyday bullshit). The only difference between his previous opinion (openly hated it) and current opinion (likes his job) is that he realized he signed a contract, is going to honor it, and plans to use this experience for better exit opps (first job out of college being a federal agent isn't too bad of a gig). Essentially he just decided to make the best of his situation and convinced himself it's not that bad, which is probably what I would have done as well.
In conclusion, seriously seriously think this decision over before making it.
Sucker:
I want to serve my country. My career, however, is my utmost priority. The weekend a month and two weeks of training a year are something I'm clearly willing to sacrifice. I don't think there is a high likelihood of getting deployed if there is no new escalation of violence (not that it is good -- just nothing insane happens), and we get a democratic president. However, if something were to happen that would send more troops (ie. another terrorist attack), you had better believe that my career will be thrown in the backseat and I will go to war in a second. Just because I'm not keen on getting deployed under current circumstances doesn't mean I don't have my heart set on serving part-time.
For fun, any debate on just war etc is welcome via PM.
The Ham:
Like finance, it varies based on what division I end up joining and groups within. Both websites, the navy and air force, along with military.com, explain it fairly well.
Anyone have any first-hand experience of what would happen rapport wise if I got deployed? Would it generate respect or just ill thoughts due to my absence?
you WILL be deployed......... Not sure how its looked on for hiring current officers, great to be a past officer though
What division will you end up joining? I've got a few friends who joined the reserves. They all told me the same thing - they made the recruiting officer commit to their placement before they signed papers. That's why I asked.
I'm sure you situation is unique, so this might not apply to you at all.
Do you have any preference?
Military Reserve (Originally Posted: 05/29/2008)
Hey all. I posted this on the investment banking section of the website, but thought I'd get some advice from you consultants as well. I'm interested in consulting (and at this point in my life, I'm not sure if it's economics-related or strategy-related). Regardless, would being in the military reserve be more of a hindrance? The time commitment is small - a weekend a month plus an addition two weeks during the year. Would this disqualify me for a lot of consulting firms? I apologize if this is a stupid question in advance!
It wouldn't. Not sure on the mechanics but I think that you are given fairly long notice (ie. you can tell your job manager at the outset of a project that you have this commitment on x dates).
Economics consulting and strategy consulting are two VERY different things btw.
Employers are required by law to make accommodations for you to be in the reserves
Thanks guys. For reference (and I'm not sure if this is even relevant or not) but I'm interested in offices in either the south (Dallas, Atlanta,etc) or west coast (LA/SF). Nothing in New York City. Hopefully things work out.
I was in the Marine Reserves and our weekend/AT dates would change fairly often, usually due to changing availabilty of training sites. In any case, you were expected to be there no matter what. If you miss a weekend you have to make up the days during the week. Of course, every command is a little different. A lot may depend on your CO.
Joining the Marines (Originally Posted: 01/02/2007)
I a currently a freshman at stern and am considering doing Officer Candidate School with the Marines this summer. Basically, if I can survive the 6 week summer program then I can within the next year either choose to join the Marines as an officer or go back to my civilian life since it is a no obligation program. What I wanted to know was would it hurt my chances in ib if I choose to serve in the Marines for a few years after college and then decide to go pursue a career in IB or if I join as a reservist for 6 years after college and want to have IB as my career, but have the possibility of being called to active duty at any time. My third option would be to not take my commission into the military and go back to my civilian life and leave with a paycheck and a good leadership program under my belt. Basically, how much would it hurt my chances in IB if I 1) Take an active duty commission for 3 1/2 years after college plus a few years of reservist. 2) Take a reservist commission for 6 years after college. 3) Not join after the program showing that I opted out (quitter?)
If you have an interest in serving your country do it. No bank will fault you. best of luck.
If you're thinking about Marine OCS, some recommended reading is Nathaniel Fick's "One Bullet Away." Good read if you haven't taken a look.
I was considering the same thing (only Army). The piece of advice i was given is that you can do OCS at any time, but you can't do banking at any time. So do analyst stint for 2/3 years and then go to OCS if you still want to do it. This way you will have some money in your pocket, and work history. Then when you are done with your MBA, every company will want you, because you will have Military service, and Ibanking experience. You get the best of both worlds and you don't miss a beat. However, the problem with that is that your idealism might disappear once you taste capitalism at its best. I will see in two years.
excellent analysis salam
I think you should do OCS your freshman year. PLC has no long term commitment so you can try it this summer and see if you like it. You still have two summers after that to secure banking internships. In addition, I think the skills you learn are invaluable. e.g. attention to detail, discipline, teamwork
Air Force Reserve (Originally Posted: 05/29/2008)
Hi guys. I'm looking at career opportunities in investment banking, equity research, or consulting. Would being in the air force reserve be a negative for any of these career paths? I'm aware of the intensive hours involved, but the AF Reserve is a small time commitment (1 weekend a month and 2 weeks additionally a year). Would this be a problem come full-time recruiting?
Thank you!
I think not getting hired because you are in the AF reserves would be like not getting hired because you are black. Illegal
It may very well be a problem. I was active duty military prior to b-school, and then S&T post b-school. If you are on a desk with good hours in S&T you might be able to swing it, but as an IBD analyst, or as a structurer on the trading floor, it will be absolutely impossible.
While it is blatantly illegal to not hire someone because of a military commitment, it will certainly impact you once you begin working. And while they legally have to excuse you from work to do reserve time, if they know you will not be there 1 weekend per month then they will end up indirectly discriminating against you because you won't get a look each time a new deal comes along (just one example). Imagine you have a big pitch due on a Monday morning. If they rest of the team is working through the weekend but you're not there, then not only will it negatively impact your image to the rest of the team, but they could still end up firing you pretty easily.
Just like if you get called up to go to Iraq for a year. Theoretically they have to give you your job back once you return. But if you're returning a year later, after being completely out of touch with your desk and its work, then it could be very easy to fall behind and that could hurt you.
While my military background certainly helped me get job offers on the street, I have zero doubt that if I got called back to deploy they would can me in a second and find some way to cover their asses in the process. Don't underestimate the ability of investment banks the absolutely screw you over in the most despicable way possible!
Skins1, thank you. Would this theoretically be the same scenario with, say, equity research or consulting? I'm not solely looking at IBanking, nor am I looking solely at Bulge Bracket firms. Would this impact me in other career paths? And would you suggest I look for something like a financial analyst position with more free time until I fulfill my duties?
I interviewed with a number of people (in IBD) who were still in the reserves. They did Military - B-school - Investment Banking and are now at the VP/MD level
Stevenbn--what kind of reserve status? I'm inactive reserves, so it's fine. But if you're active reserves and do 1 weekend per month then, while I agree it's possible, it's going to be group dependent. If you are going in IBD as a 1st year analyst or associate I'd say there is a 90%+ chance that you will NOT be able to fulfill your reserve commitment and get your job done, unless you have a boss and team who are very understanding. It could also depend on whether your reserve commitment is for 1 weekend per calendar month, or a total number of days per year. If the latter, then you could do it, but you'll be kissing goodbye to your entire vacation.
I'm just saying that I know a ton of military vets in IBD and S&T and I honestly don't know of a single one who managed to stay on Active Reserves for any significant period of time. Is it doable? I guess. But every vet I know advises against it.
Bartleteeth--consulting could be tough, depending on how much you travel. Let's say you are stuck on a 3-month assignment to a remote location thousands of miles from where you live--would it even be possible to get back home 1 weekend per month? Also, if you are on assignment in, say, France, there may be no bases where you can fulfill your commitment (specifically if you are assigned to a specific weapons system).
This is probably much easier for Army/Marines, or a general ground troop, but if you have any sort of specialty (especially in aviation), then you are very limited on where you can do your training. I originally looked at doing Active Reserves, but I found out that since I'm based in New York there was zero potential for me to do it because no bases anywhere near New York have my aircraft/weapons system.
The decision on whether or not to do reserves it better left for once you get settled in the job and can then evaluate the situation with more details. But to commit to it ahead of time before knowing those details is incredibly risky.
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