Hi International Students,
As a bit of background, I graduated from the MSF program at BC a few years ago. Everything I'm about to say is anecdotal from my time at BC and going back to BC a few months ago as a guest speaker to the MSF class. If there are any refutes to what I am saying, I welcome them.
I want to set expectations for international students entering or thinking of entering an MSF program: it will be a battle to get a job. And by battle I mean it may take you endless networking, a few months of unemployment, and maybe even going back to your home country to find work. Many times I witnessed less qualified American students get jobs over their more qualified international counterparts on many occasions. The reason? Mediocre English skills and no long term work authorization.
What can help your prospects? I thought this memo from the Associate Dean of BC was very insightful and could be very beneficial to any international student considering an MSF in the USA:
Message for International Students
I don't want to be pessimistic, just trying to set realistic expectations. In my class, it took many of the international students quite a few months after graduation to finally land a job in the US. Another large percent went back to their home country and were able to get great jobs after giving up trying to find work in the US. The ones who had the most success had great English skills, had solid internship or work experience, and had long term work authorization. The brutal fact is, many smaller companies (
I hope this candid advice can allow any international students make a fair assessment MSF programs and set realistic career goals after.
Great post and advice.
It's true
I'm in an MSF program and I can't find a position and I'm American.
Which program, what are your stats? GPA, GMAT, work experience etc..
It seems the amount of people getting MSF has increased over the years, which is making it competitive to get jobs after finishing the program. Also, the fact many banks are hiring directly from S.A class makes F.T recruiting a lot harder.
Maybe ANT can chime on this.
It is still a tough job market out there when it comes to finance. Depending on the individuals career goals a job seach might be short or long. A lot of it is up to the individual also. I would have to say that most MSF programs have a 75% or less placement rate at graduation. Some years can fluctuate though as every class has different career goals (classes that all want banking vs. more people wanting F500). That is why most programs have placements 3-6 months after graduation.
You also need to look at the general profile of students who go into an MSF. Most have 0-2 years experience with a bias towards no work experience. Students come from lesser known schools, maybe decided on finance later in their academic careers, trying to make amends for a lower GPA, etc.
This isn't directed at the poster above who is looking for a job, but you also see a lot of 5th year seniors in MSF programs also. I've seen it all too much. These programs go by fast and you need to have a concrete game plan going into the program. People get caught up in a new city or a new school, party a little too much, think they have more time than they do, stuff like that. So you need to take placements with a grain of salt.
A good MSF program has the following characteristics:
1) Good brand - whether nationally or regionally 2) OCR - this will depend on what you want. If you want a regional job or something non-IB then the OCR bar is lower 3) Alumni - This will be MSF alumni, MBA alumni or UG alumni in cities/jobs you want 4) Academics - Classes that you are interested in and will increase your knowledge base. This is a graduate degree and should make you smarter in the subject you are studying in.
If a program has these characteristics then you should be able to land a job if you put forth the effort.
Very well said. I have started networking since mid-summer(maybe should have started earlier to get in on FT progs at BBs) because my program does not have good OCR at all. We only had one firm come for a FT OCR event and it was for a very "satellite" city. I have SA IB experience at a boutique and 2 other finance related internships (PWM and BO role), and its still pretty tough for me. The only thing I have going for me is potential alumni.
I'm starting my MsF program soon, but doing it part time with intensive weekends/night courses from a top tier school.
I'm currently well situated in a front office role at an energy company. I don't think it's impossible to get a job, you just have to sell yourself to all available markets.
As an international student who is planning to do an MSF I was wondering about what would be right ingredients you need to land a job in the States?
Props to Boston College for posting this. I really feel that a lot of b-schools are taking advantage of international students by not fully disclosing the realities of the job market for them.
Ghosh: Two biggest factors would be 1) your English skills and 2) your work experience.
Msf is for students with nearly 0 work experience, how can that be fixed?
I second to this post. The situation is even worse in other (non-finance) business fields.
I am at a crossroads of decided to pursue an MSF or jumping into the job market. I am a Canadian students and I meet the aforementioned criteria (native English speaker, one-year internship at Chrysler, realistic expectations, great networking skills). My decision to pursue my MSF in the US is greatly based on the desire to enter the US job market (better opportunities, room for growth, more competitive culture, better places to live, family is moving to the US, etc.)
With that said, am I wasting my time/money? Is this too risky a route to take? Typically, do people from my circumstances succeed in finding employment?
Your thoughts are much appreciated.
To preface this I lived in Canada for several years, have family that is Canadian, and I'm a US citizen. Although, if you're Québécois then you can skip my advice as I've got nothing that could help infallibility.
Moving from Canada to the US is not a hard thing to do. Time consuming and expensive yes. But very doable. The easiest way is the student Visa and then company sponsorship. Failing that if your family is moving down you will be able to "piggy back" off of them moving here. It will take a lot longer and be a lot more expensive than the student Visa but still doable.
Also if your goal is corporate finance there are tons of opportunities for you to get sponsorship and you prior work experience and a US MSF from a good school will definitely do it for you.
Failing that there's always the spousal Visa...
I would love to know something. I was wondering how would US employers value work experience in Indian equity research firms for a year or so?
Great post! As an international student, it was really tough getting a job. I am a native English speaker, but the biggest hurdle I had to overcome was the work authorization issue. I eventually got a job at a Big 4, but it was really hard going. Even getting the job was no guarantee that you get to stay. I don't know how the H1B process is now, but back when we did it, it was a lottery to get one. Those who were unfortunate not to get one had to go back to their country.
One thing I would say for international students is this: plan VERY well. Think it through and do your research on the school, its recruiting and see if it has a strong alumni network. Also, for those who are non-native English speakers, please improve your English!
There arent many MSF programmes in the US of A to begin with in the first place.There are few to none at the ivy leagues.I looked at the univerisity of michigan's (very good university) MSF and the stats of students entering arent great , avg GMAT - 570 , avg gpa - 3.2 or 3.4,seriously?.Even the programme at University of Texas is geared towards american guys rather than foreign people.
If you want to do MSF or Msc Finance , do it in Europe.Europe has the culture where students do masters right after their bachelors and people in the job market with masters are preferred.But beware there are many 2 yr masters in Europe as the bachelors is of 3 yrs (Bologna process) but top b-schools also have 1 yr masters (check FT's ranking for best msc finance programmes) The most popular degree for working in BB in London was the MSC Finance (check out efinancialcareers , their survey) Visas in America are a problem now because of too much competition , there isnt that much in Europe except London but the lack of competition is compensated by another problem , the language barrier.
Great Discussion !! I have few years before I get the green card in US. Please advice which of these schools will land me with better job in Treasury ? ( I have two years of experience with the Indian bank in Trade finance department and two years in the back office of worlds leading logistics company in India.) University of Buffalo, Bentley, RIT, UCD, UTSA, U Mass and Brandies. I also have MBA (Fin) from Mumbai. Pls advice
Get in a top MBA and spin around your BO experience into something more positive.I dont know much about universities and stuff but those names are tier 2 at best and coupled with BO experience you have less hope.Although the green card can make life easier
@RohanShinde: The MSF program you talk about at UM is at Dearborn and not at AA. That is why the stats are not that good. Ross has a new MiM program. There are a lot of MSF programs in the US but they are not as popular as in Europe. I don't want to start a controversy or anything but as an international kid who has done his college years and worked in the US and knows a shit ton of kids who went to the UK (Imperial, Cass, Warwick) for their college. I can say although anecdotal that an US education provides a better value.
Yea it may provide better value but how much is an MSF recognized in USA anyways? I read on this very site that employers still find it something new and are getting used to it though it maybe there for many years. Ross' MIM programme is i think the only notable MIM programme is USA (please clarify im not sure since one of my friend keeps harping on this) Im not saying go to europe or something , just that an MSF is more of a european thing rather than a USA thing. Judging from what i have read on this blog and from some other respected people a BO guy who wants to maybe rebrand himself or wants a career change would most probably be better off with an MBA in USA
@RohanShinde and @ Gosh, I can't go out of US for personal reasons. I already have MBA Fin from India. But low GMAT restrictics me to for tier1 schools for MSF. @RohanShinde you are stressing on my BO experience but the post Mba one and latest one is from a bank in India in TF , does that not count ???
This is a great topic and has spurred me to write an article on the subject.
As for the questions in this thread, a lot if being bounces around and I am getting slightly confused. I will answer stuff if it is restated so I can understand what is being asked.
As Rohan mentions, the MSc in Europe is the standard, much like the MBA is in the US. With that said, the MSF is gaining attention and recognition and is still a recognized graduate degree. If your goals are more equity research then the MSF fits nicely with the CFA and people in a research function will understand a focused finance degree more so than say those in other industries.
@ TNA, To clear things I am Indian and I have few years before I get my Green Card in USA but I have to look for US MSF only( for personal reasons) I have MBA Fin from India, 4 ys of professional work ex.- 2 yrs in Banking - trade fin and 2 yrs in BO. I have low GMAT (560) Planning to pursue career in Treasury. Wondering which universities are best fit for me. I have already applied to Fisher, Univ of Cinci., Simon, Sunny Buffalo,Bentley, Univ of Colorado at Denver, Univ of Texas at San Antonio and RIT. I was wondering if I should apply to more "ambitious" schools..PLEASE suggest me right fit universities.
Where are you located? The GMAT is going to hurt you, but the work experience will help you. How did you do during undergrad/MBA?
I think you could do better with the schools you are looking in. Give me a little more information and I can suggest some decent schools you can get into.
All is not lost.
My guess is that the absolute best 1 year MS program in business related fields in the U.S. is UVA's MS in Commerce. It's about $40,000 (compared to a lot more at good MSF programs), is from a prestigious university's prestigious commerce program, and has decent recruiting. If you can get in then that would probably be preferable to an MSF.
I largely agree with you, but he isn't going to be able to get into UVA with an MBA and work experience. They target fresh grads with non business undergraduate degrees.
Agreed. By "you" I meant "people generically."
That's because you went to a shit school. BC doesn't have as good program as Vandy, Nova, WUSTL, or CMC. Majority of the Internationals from these four schools find jobs! Going to BC and expecting to land a good job is like going to UIUC and expecting to land an IB gig!
We are not bad but we can only do technology work due to our shitty English skill.I am still trying to break into IB even tough I know the realistic.
International Student MSF Problems.. (Originally Posted: 05/25/2015)
Hi,
Apologies in advance for the Sermon
My name is Tunmise from Nigeria and first i just want to acknowledge how tremendously helpful this site has been to me over the past couple of months. It literally helped get me into grad school.
Anyway i’m 28 years old with about 4/5 years working experience majorly in commercial banking (relationship mgt.) and a bit in financial services (a couple of months in a boutique financial advisory firm). I’ve always wanted to do proper finance, but the working climate here is tough and i took whatever i could get.
Late last year i finally decided to go back to grad school so i’d be able to change career paths to finance and naturally i thought i’d get an MBA. However, someone advised me to go for an MSF and not an MBA (at least not yet) since a career in finance is my goal, i’d be taught core finance instead having to take on extra finance courses with an MBA. It made sense to me as i do want to deepen my knowledge in finance as i try to chart a career in it so i listened.
At this time (about the end of January 2015) only two (2) schools deadlines were possible to meet - WUSTL and Simon. I literally had two months to take the GRE and put 2 applications together. Long story short, i just got accepted into the corp fin MSF at WUSTL and i’m confident that i’d get an admitted into Simon as well. Either way i’d choose WUSTL as from your forums, it’s a better school.
But since reading forums on the website i’ve been having doubts about if i should have gone for an MBA instead. it’s been recommended here severally that anyone with 3 years+ experience should go in for the MBA and not MSF. Also i really want to work in the US after graduation and although the MSF or MBA does not guarantee employment, i fear that with my age and experience an MBA would have helped more.
I probably will go to WUSTL and i want to start shopping around for internships, but what are the chances of me getting work in the US with an MSF degree, 4/5 years work experience and a bit of “finance” work experience after graduation? and also what does an international student like me need to do to make that happen.
Thanks.
Go get an MBA
Should definitely get an MBA. You got some pretty bad advice,
Definitely get a MBA. You should be able to get into a top-15 MBA too, since you got into good MSF programs with a half-assed application. Top 15 should guarantee an IB associate internship, assuming great english skills and no major changes in job market.
with MSF you'd be an awkward MBA-caliber candidate without full-size MBA recruiting efforts. You're URM so that'd definitely help some with your MBA applications....
plus WUSTL's MBA application is free....MSF application has a fee... MBAs often have scholarships, the MSF only offer loans..
Hi Guys, just wanted to let y'all know i took y'alls advice and skipped the MSF at WUSTL. Got admitted into Darden yesterday with some $$$. Appreciate the cold-blooded advice...
Hi Guys, just wanted to let y'all know i took y'alls advice and skipped the MSF at WUSTL. Got admitted into Darden yesterday with some $$$. Appreciate the cold-blooded advice...
Congrats!
Best MSF programs for international students? (Originally Posted: 12/05/2013)
Hi everyone,
I am an international student graduating from Indiana University with a finance degree. IU has been a fantastic experience but networking from Bloomington is a bitch and although the career services center is excellent, it does not cater well to the needs of a foreign student. But I have received a couple for corp. finance job offers. I have not been overly satisfied with these jobs.
Thus, I recently started to look into masters degree programs in finance that are reputable. I don't want the same experience that I had at IU again by that I mean is that I want to go to a place where they place international students well within the States. I don't want to be in I-banking or anything like that I would like to have a challenging job in the world of financial services industry.
My profile: GPA: 3.3 GMAT: Taking it in a few days. Target 680+ Previous experience: 1) Management Consulting experience at a small firm in Chicago 2) Commercial Real Estate finance experience at a major real estate firm in Chicago 3) Business Development (Sales) experience in India
Hoping for some constructive replies. Thanks all for their help.
I'll be honest F500 corp fin isn't bad and is not necessarily any worse than you would get from an MSF, you don't want IB, so what do you want risk? Corporate/Commercial Banking? S&T? You're better off taking the offers.
I'd take the offer. No program in the US "caters" to international students. Regretfully, being international is a hindrance when looking for a job in the US. If you did a masters I would suggest one in or very near a major metro. Probably easier to in person network and more internationals around than in the middle of Indiana.
I would take that corp finance offer in a heart beat. Being int student myself, I think that getting job experience is very very very very important to get into any decent grad school latter on. I know it's not satisfied but considering your international student's status, you are already luckier than many others. After 1 or 2 years, you can leverage yourself much better.
Thank you all for your replies. I might end up taking one of the offers and also I am gonna be in school for another semester so I have time to look for other jobs. But I have a really low course load this semester and so I decided to take the GMAT and finish a few applications during winter break. I really enjoyed my Management Consulting experience but unfortunately it is a small firm and recently they are going through a tough phase and not higher entry level analyst. I am interested in Asset Management or PWM or consulting . I would like to ask if you guys could suggest a few schools for me that would fit my profile to apply to during the break.
If you're going to insist on going, only go if you can get into a school like UVA, Duke, MIT, WUSTL, Vanderbilt or Claremont McKenna. Honestly a lot of people wind up in F500 or middle office roles out of MSFs. Many firms won't sponsor and I have friends who are having issues due to that.
@futurectdoc: Thank you for reply. I noticed that UVA and Duke are for non business students. Are they willing to consider finance majors? Also, may I ask where you are currently pursuing your MSF and your experiences? Thank you.
UVA doesn't accept business majors. Duke does.
@TNA: It seems to me you have the most experience as you have been classified as a "human" (I am new to this forum, please forgive my ignorance). Talking for a minute discounting the fact that I have a job offer I wanted to ask you looking at my profile what you would think about my chances at the schools futurectdoc mentioned. If slim to none than I would readily take up the job offers I have got. Thank you.
You can't go to UVA. Duke you'd be competitive at assuming the 680 GMAT. WUSTL maybe, but less so than Duke. UMich is new so no idea, but I would imagine you'd have a decent chance. UI is a great UG school so that will help you.
CMC most likely not. Vandy would be competitive.
Honestly dude, take the F500 gig.
1) You'll probably score lower than a 680. Until you have that score everything else is conjecture.
2) 3.3/4.0 GPA isn't that good. If you can't crush UG then you will probably end up as a middle of the pack MSF student.
3) Indiana has amazing OCR. No career office caters to internationals. You simply meet hiring managers and see if they sponsor. Pretty simple conversation. UI has tons of great firms and banks.
Not being in the IB program there isn't good either.
So in conclusion, I see you getting into some programs and running into the same issues. No career office will focus on international students, you'll probably be in the 3.3-3.5 GPA range, most of the schools you are looking at have comparable OCR to Indiana also. So you'll get a masters and maybe have a slightly better gig than you have now.
My advice? Indiana is a great school. 3.3 is decent. Take the F500 gig, work hard, build a solid resume and get a 700+ GMAT. Apply for an MBA in 4-5 years and you'll be competitive at T15 schools.
Thanks for the candid and very comprehensive response. I will accept my offer soon.
Career prospect of international MSF graduate in USA without prior work experience (Originally Posted: 04/18/2013)
Hello all. I really need your valuable advice to decide my future.
I will be completing my Undergrad this year and I intend to apply for MSF so that i can start from next year.
I dont have any professional work experience. But my undergrad CGPA is 3.8+ on a scale of 4. My expected gmat score is 680+ (preferably 700 ). Now what will be some good MSF programs for me considering that i want to work in US after the MSF ?? In short, what are the chances of mine to get a work after completing the MSF.
And with this profile, do i have any chance of a scholarship ??
Please help.
Chances depend on what program you go into and what your expectations are. If you are BB or bust you will have a tough shot at breaking in. If you goal is to secure a good position at a known firm and then do something different your odds are a lot better.
If we pass comprehensive immigration reform you might have a better shot, but I don't see that happening. I'd love to see educated immigration separated from the overall immigration conversation. We need more engineers from China and Indian. We don't need more unskilled labor from south of the boarder.
International who are worried about jobs post-MSF. Read this! (Originally Posted: 04/11/2014)
So I emailed Vanderbilt's Indian student embassador and this is the response. I think this pretty much explains it. Big & established firms are always hiring internationals. There is a screenshot attached
because anyone would expect him, a paid lackey for the school, to tell you otherwise.
OR
because Vandy doesn't have as many intl's as other ones. Or both.
You're a moron. Like the person said, it totally depends on the student seeking employment. If you've got skills, and brand name of a reputable school like Vandy or UTA or others, I don't think employers would not be willing to hire.
Big 4, most BBs do hire international students, but a lot of firms have blanket policies of not hiring internationals at entry level. But it is definitely possible to get hired just like the Vandy guy said. You have to work hard and cast a wide net.
I am going to assume you are the person in the email since you are so new to the site. Might not want to out yourself on here like that.
Vandy, WUSTL, Nova, Claremont, all make an effort to only admit ~30% or less foreign students. This allows internationals in the class the opportunity to get jobs and sponsored. If you speak English fluently and can network you can find a job. It is just more difficult.
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