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5/30/11

I need a job badly and at this point I'm willing to do just about anything. I've been out of work for a year and I don't know what to do - every single one of my strategies has flopped. So long as it's legal I'm willing to consider just about anything. Otherwise I'm going to try and get a job at McDonalds - I figure it's better than sending out more resumes to black hole career sites. If anyone has any leads let me know.

Comments (324)

5/30/11

Do you have any internship experience? I know from your previous posts you are interested in trading, etc, but what internship experience do you have? Just curious if I can help or not.

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5/30/11

PM me with a quick overview of your background or post here (two sentences, one education, one work).

Also where are you willing to work, location wise? Depending on your background I think I can at least get someone above and beyond HR to put eyeballs on your resume, the rest will be up to you.

Still not sure if I want to spend the next 30+ years grinding away in corporate finance and the WSO dream chase or look to have enough passive income to live simply and work minimally.

5/30/11

I live in NYC, so I'm looking for jobs in that area. I don't have any internships, but I did work at the Federal Reserve in DC for two years. Here's my resume:
http://www.razume.com/documents/20187

5/30/11

Education: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 3.5 GPA triple major in math, stat and econ. 180 hours of coursework (120 is a normal course load). National Foundation Fellowship in game theory as well as a consulting position in the department of statistics.

Federal Reserve: I worked for two years as a research analyst at the Federal Reserve in the Emerging Markets Section of the International Finance division. I put together presentations that my economists wrote that went to the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee). Think writing pitch books for Ben Bernanke and the Board of Governors. I also forecast GDP for Emerging Market economies (specifically the Philippines and Indonesia) as well as maintained and wrote some of the excel structure that kept my sections forecast programs running. Did ad-hoc research during down times with other section economists.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

Education: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 3.5 GPA triple major in math, stat and econ. 180 hours of coursework (120 is a normal course load). National Foundation Fellowship in game theory as well as a consulting position in the department of statistics.

Federal Reserve: I worked for two years as a research analyst at the Federal Reserve in the Emerging Markets Section of the International Finance division. I put together presentations that my economists wrote that went to the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee). Think writing pitch books for Ben Bernanke and the Board of Governors. I also forecast GDP for Emerging Market economies (specifically the Philippines and Indonesia) as well as maintained and wrote some of the excel structure that kept my sections forecast programs running. Did ad-hoc research during down times with other section economists.

Why don't you reach out to your professors? They can probably get u something in chicago, u can spend a year there and transfer to NYC.

More is good, all is better

5/30/11

I only read the first section of the bullet points from your most recent job. You should at least try to keep everything the same tense. There are small errors where you use a past tense verb and a present tense verb in the same bullet, that should be a rather simple fix.

I screen a lot of resumes at work, and something like that really turns interviewers off because it represents lack of attention to detail which is a must for any wall street job, be it GS SSG or State Street back office.

As far as what you can do outside the usual "go network'' or "contact alumni" advice, I can't really help, as I have only worked for one firm since college. Perhaps some of the other apes on this board can provide better advice.

5/30/11

what the fuck. how do you not have a job with a 3.5 and a triple major?

"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.

6/1/11

just a fly on the wall,

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

5/30/11

I'll see if we have openings that fit your background in NYC. Feel free to PM me later this week if you don't hear back. I have a mediocre job and am still pursuing IB, but it's finance and it's better than Mickey D's - perhaps it will give you more options.

Still not sure if I want to spend the next 30+ years grinding away in corporate finance and the WSO dream chase or look to have enough passive income to live simply and work minimally.

5/30/11

DAMN sama you're still looking for a job.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

5/30/11

Dude, you do know there are temp agencies that will put you in JPM mid office, paying like 22.00 an hour.

5/30/11
ANT:

Dude, you do know there are temp agencies that will put you in JPM mid office, paying like 22.00 an hour.

This, I was offered this position with much lower qualifications than you a week before my FT offer elsewhere. I can probably dig up some of the temp agencies that were very good to me when I was in the NY area.

Still not sure if I want to spend the next 30+ years grinding away in corporate finance and the WSO dream chase or look to have enough passive income to live simply and work minimally.

11/28/12

TNA:
Dude, you do know there are temp agencies that will put you in JPM mid office, paying like 22.00 an hour.

.
can you give more info about this temp agencies?
5/30/11

Sure, any help would be appreciated. I know I should have a job, but I'm just terrible at job searching. It's not like I haven't been trying - my last attempt was to essentially email everyone at a hedge fund that I can find. I've got a stack of printouts of every hedge fund analyst and manager sitting on my coffee table.

I've used recruiters before, but never with much success. If anyone knows a recruiter personally or has contact information I'd be much obliged.

5/30/11

wow, Im blown away that you're not employed.... if I hear of anything I'll let you know.

5/30/11
Mezz:

wow, Im blown away that you're not employed.... if I hear of anything I'll let you know.

Thanks. I know everyone probably thinks I'm omitting something or maybe have some serious hidden flaw, but I just think I suck at job hunting. It's sort of like prom all over again, except with people who wear loafers and cufflinks.

5/30/11

Hey monkey,

You have a solid background and are a smart guy, so I suspect there's lots of stuff you can land. Now, it might not be in finance, but who cares. Get a job that pays okay money, live cheap, and keep trading on the side. It might take years for you to become a successful trader, but maybe that's what you got to do. Get a job at an economic consulting firm, or even a job doing stats/econometrics. A lot of those jobs pay $50K+ in your first year and only require 40 hours a week. You can have plenty of extra time and money to keep trading.

5/30/11

Wow. sucks man. Sorry. Economy must be pretty bad. That said, you have a solid background. Only thing to say is persevere and keep looking. Same thing happened to a friend of mine, graduated from Oxford with PPE but could not find a job. Worked at a bookstore for two years before he got a break. Works at the IMF now. Keep at it.

Agree with ANT completely. Temp work is your best bet. Something relevant to your skills will surely be found.

DO NOT GO TO MCDONALDS!!!

Agree on the resume as well. Definitely change the tense of your wording (i,e. first two points, note produced and led as you have on the final three bullet points) and probably switch the education and work experience around. Usual method is education first.

Good job on the Fed gig. Kinda what I'm hoping to get into following my masters.

Good luck.

5/30/11

I have been trading on the side. Funny story, I've been putting together trading ideas and emailed a "big name" with "I think you should do x because of y" and got a response. Made me feel real good.

My best trade so far is that I got the silver correction right, so that's good too. I'm short Japan, Brazil, and the Yen carry trade at the moment as well as AAPL and CRM. We'll see how things go.

As far as McDonalds, why not? I certainly can't put it on my resume, but some money is better than none. I will be officially one year out of work by June 15 and I'll start going from Starbucks to McDonalds to Subway etc. looking for help wanted signs. At this point, it seems to be my best option.

5/30/11

Monkeysama,

I really don't think that is a good idea. For some reason companies love people that have jobs. To add to that headhunters love people who have jobs and don't want to leave their current jobs. In a way it makes sense, because if you are doing a good job at your current firm you will want to stay there and you are probably an employee that will succeed at other firms.

In the past year I have received 10-12 calls from headhunters, some with great offers. I would look for a job in finance/consulting/anything applicable and use that to work your way up. My friend worked at a F500 operations role and ended up working at HF 3 years later.

5/30/11
theATL:

Monkeysama,

I really don't think that is a good idea. For some reason companies love people that have jobs. To add to that headhunters love people who have jobs and don't want to leave their current jobs. In a way it makes sense, because if you are doing a good job at your current firm you will want to stay there and you are probably an employee that will succeed at other firms.

In the past year I have received 10-12 calls from headhunters, some with great offers. I would look for a job in finance/consulting/anything applicable and use that to work your way up. My friend worked at a F500 operations role and ended up working at HF 3 years later.

I know, and I completely agree. I just haven't been able to find anything applicable after searching for jobs for a year. I can't stand not doing anything anymore - I need to work, not because I particularly need the money as I have a little financial stability, but because it's driving me crazy not to. If you know of anyone or anywhere to get a remotely white collar job in anything I'll take it. But I can't sit on my hands anymore I have to be doing something other than fruitlessly sending out emails all day. I'm sick of it.

5/30/11

Damn man, this is nauseating. Good luck, if I hear of anything, you will be the first to know.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

5/30/11

what happened to your fed job? how did you manage to go an entire year without any work? :S

edit: take "Looking for a job in NYC. Willing to do anything." off of your linkedin dude, does not look good.

5/30/11
LLcoolJ:

what happened to your fed job? how did you manage to go an entire year without any work? :S

edit: take "Looking for a job in NYC. Willing to do anything." off of your linkedin dude, does not look good.

My Fed job was a two year term job. Undergrads are cheap and they rotate them out so people don't stay there forever (government jobs can create situations where people will retire at their desks - there were some obvious abuses they were determined not to see repeated). As far as going a year without work, it's been a comedy (or tragedy) of errors. I don't know if I want to go through all of it, but I've had hedge funds want me to tell them what monetary policy was going to be before hand (real classy), boutique IB firms that were writing memos on how Bernanke is crazy and ruining the economy (and use me as some sort of analyst/evidence of the fact), transfer pricing firms that were very shady (I don't want to help companies avoid taxes - it's dirty). I could tell you stories.

Anyway, at this point being out of work for a year has essentially made me unhirable, I'm afraid. This is sort of my last appeal before I go and get any retail job I can find. I don't know what to do other than go into Manhattan and asking door to door if anyone is hiring. It's all I've got left.

editted linkedin like you suggested. Thought someone would take me up on it, guess not.

5/30/11

^I'm wondering the same...why aren't you still with the fed? I don't know if you are serious with fast food joints or not. but shouldn't you be able to hop back on the the fed or irs pretty easily?

good luck tho

5/30/11

Man monkeysama, I can't believe that your'e still out of work. Best of luck -- you definitely deserve a break.

5/30/11

Also the Fed is sort of, at least in my section, a job/internship at the undergrad level. If you were there you were there as a two year term contract - undergrads are a dime a dozen when you want to fill a position at a place like that. PhDs were what they were interested in and the screening process was obviously intense.

5/30/11

Stop looking at it that way. Spin the hell out of it and use the name to your advantage. Sure IB analysts learn a good amount by doing repetitive work over 2 years, but a lot of people recruit them because of the rigorous nature of the I-banks' recruiting.

Being able to point to everything in your resume and say, "this was the most amazing experience because of x, y, and z" will by far be the most helpful. And don't kid yourself, even though you don't have a job you're definitely still a rockstar. Best of luck man

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

5/31/11

Have you considered taking an unpaid internship at a boutique IB/consulting firm (given that you have financial stability)? I just graduated, don't have a job either, and am about to do that (actually in NYC as well). Your story scares the crap out of me honestly. I know the economy is bad, didn't know it was THAT bad.

5/31/11

You definitely have an impressive resume -- are you willing to relocate? Please PM me, might be able to help.

5/31/11

Are you at least getting interviews?

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

5/31/11

USe LInkedIn! Make a post in one of your groups you a member of and say who you are, what you're interested in and how they can contact you.

Make sure to keep it short and post in several groups to enhance your changes. Good Luck!

5/31/11

hang in there buddy. i job hunted for 2yrs before i found my gig. The recession really jacked a lot of good people.

All things are possible with Him i have to deal

5/31/11

If you want to avoid the whole job search, you can quickly and easily get a job at http://www.goworkit.com

5/31/11

Hey dude use a job search engine site like indeed.com, and just search for "analyst". You can find many jobs betterbthan mcd for sure.

Good luck!

5/31/11

st84at - I've been unemployed a year. If there's a way to apply for a job online I've done it.

Walkerr - I've linked to and sent private messages to tons of people in the financial community on linkedin. No dice. Although I now have a 1000 friends or so which is crazy.

blackfinancier - I've had about 12-15 interviews I think. I've lost count. That includes phone interviews but not necessarily phone discussions. My last set of interviews were 4 2 hour interviews after which they said they didn't want me. My favorite was that the interviewer wanted to know who my 'hero' was as if this were some sort of qualification for a job.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

blackfinancier - I've had about 12-15 interviews I think. I've lost count. That includes phone interviews but not necessarily phone discussions. My last set of interviews were 4 2 hour interviews after which they said they didn't want me. My favorite was that the interviewer wanted to know who my 'hero' was as if this were some sort of qualification for a job.

So your resume is getting you interviews, but you screw it up at the interview level. find someone to practice interviews with, get a consistent story and stick with it, practice questions.
When hedge fund interviewer asked you about Fed's policy, a good answer would have been: " I am not going to reveal proprietary information of my previous employer, just like I wouldn't reveal your proprietary information if I had to interview again" . They don't actually care about the details of your work, nor do they think you were entrusted with the information worth knowing. I mean you were in a pretty junior role. What they really want to know is if they can trust you not to share THEIR proprietary techniques with their competitors later on.

More is good, all is better

5/31/11

If those JPM BO temp things don't pan out, it probably wouldn't be too hard for you to get some kind of SAT or GMAT tutoring gig, which would probably pay way better than McD's and be maybe something you could put on your resume.

5/31/11

Maybe you've mentioned this in a prior post, but have you looked at getting an MSF or master's in economics? It seems like you're very well-qualified, but for lots of government jobs, I'm under the impression they want someone with at least a master's degree.

5/31/11

sofib09 - I'm not willing to spend the money on a masters degree until I have a little bit more experience and I see how the education bubble plays out. What's the point in going back to school and going into debt if I come out without a job again? I've seen it happen to lawyers and it could very well happen to MSF, MBA, etc.

5/31/11

Bumping this up until monkeysama gets a job.

5/31/11

Monkey,

If you have to work at McDonald's, then I guess you have to work at McDonald's. However, I feel like there's plenty of other jobs that pay better and you could land. Temp agencies, data entry, bartending, waiting tables, etc. A step above this is stuff that taps into your technical skills, such as stats/econometrics, programming, market research, actuary, etc. Somewhere in the middle is stuff like working at a non-profit, tutoring, etc.

Lastly, I'm not trying to be a dick, but you should ask yourself how strong your social skills are? I've never met you, so I have no idea. The only thing I know, is that some bright people get held back big time because people don't like them. If it's not your social skills, then how strong are your interview skills? Have you read interview guides and seriously prepped for individual interviews? Anyway, I'm not saying you should answer these questions in this thread, it's just stuff for you to think about. We know it's not your hard/technical skills, which basically leaves two things: 1) bad luck; and 2) bad soft skills.

5/31/11

unknown4ever - I like your style.

econ - It could be my social skills but I don't know how to improve them. Other than trying to eat right, trying my best to be a nice and courteous interviewee. There's really very little for me to do to improve myself there, I can't take a course or get a certificate etc. but I try my best and that's about all I can hope for. As far as other jobs, I just don't know where to start. Bartending might work, but I have absolutely no idea on how to do that. I'll have to think a bit about it.

5/31/11

Have you thought about trying to do a Mock Interview with WSO's service? They're doing that whole 50% off (so it's like $99 or something) and you get access to the Mock Interviews library for a year. Might be worth it to get some feedback from some experts

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

5/31/11

monkey,

Monkey, i feel you. i am in somewhat similar situation. i have my BA in Eco n Bus management, series 7, 55, 63. Been an equity trader the last 9 years. Did very well from 02 to 08, formed my own LLC, mkt crashed in o8, lost everything. Took a year off playing poker. did ok, but hate the life style...back to trading again...have not made anything the last 2 years.. tried online poker, it was showing some good results...then...black friday happened ( us poker players no longer be able to play online...) in fact i still got some money stucked on fulltilt and UB . now, actively looking for job, any jobs..but so far no luck..jobs that called me back were all sales jobs, which i hate..i need a job that pay salary or anything that i can pay my bills...my fiance is about to call off our engagement, if i dont find anything soon. I ahve some good friend that let me manage their tiny little Etrade accounts n if i make moeny i will get a cut from that n i am trying to take the CFA level ( not sure its a good idea, but since i have so much time...). Funny i also m shorting CRM....( this stock is so manipulated) anway, i wish you the best, pls knowing that, we have to keep our head up, and keep trying, be positive. It will come. Good luck to you

5/31/11

Wow dude I was just wondering how you were a few days ago. I know it's easy for us to say but don't give up man, I'll let you know if I have anything here on my end. Good luck.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people Jeremy

5/31/11

best of luck sama--ive seen you looking for a job for far too long at this point. wish i was in any type of position to help out.

keep your head up man.

5/31/11

McDonalds? You have to be kidding, with a math/stats/econ triple major from a solid school?
At least just apply to office jobs, clerk somewhere for one of the myriad law, finance, etc firms out there.

6/1/11

jorge/leverage - thanks guys.

Gutshot - ok, sounds like a plan. Know anyone that's hiring? I'll do whatever you've got.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

jorge/leverage - thanks guys.

Gutshot - ok, sounds like a plan. Know anyone that's hiring? I'll do whatever you've got.

I got something for you:
http://tinyurl.com/6efrwjt

More is good, all is better

6/1/11

You showed desperation on your linkedin, which is something most HR people will look at during initial screening, then you said you have the names of every analyst, manager at certain hedge funds. Imagine you're working at a hedge fund and you get a random email with a resume and find out every person in the office got the same. Would YOU want to hire him?

6/1/11

Oh and your resume boasts 1410 on SATs, your GRE, LSAT scores and registered for CFA. Shows you to be an uncommitted directionless person. Firstly, who lists their SAT scores on a resume? Even if you had a perfect 1600. Then you took the exams for grad school and law school without actually going and now plan to take the CFA exam a year in the future.

Aside from inconsistencies in tense, which may be overlooked if you're some quant geek, you need to rethink your resume.

6/1/11
shera:

Oh and your resume boasts 1410 on SATs, your GRE, LSAT scores and registered for CFA. Shows you to be an uncommitted directionless person. Firstly, who lists their SAT scores on a resume? Even if you had a perfect 1600. Then you took the exams for grad school and law school without actually going and now plan to take the CFA exam a year in the future.

That was the impression I got when I first saw it. Even if you're the most committed person with a very clear direction for your future, the mere perception of being uncommitted and directionless will be enough to put your resume in the circular file (i.e., trash bin).

Just my two cents, though, so if you disagree, then you disagree. No harm, no foul.

6/1/11
sofib09:
shera:

Oh and your resume boasts 1410 on SATs, your GRE, LSAT scores and registered for CFA. Shows you to be an uncommitted directionless person. Firstly, who lists their SAT scores on a resume? Even if you had a perfect 1600. Then you took the exams for grad school and law school without actually going and now plan to take the CFA exam a year in the future.

That was the impression I got when I first saw it. Even if you're the most committed person with a very clear direction for your future, the mere perception of being uncommitted and directionless will be enough to put your resume in the circular file (i.e., trash bin).

Just my two cents, though, so if you disagree, then you disagree. No harm, no foul.

Eh. I'm a bit touchy these days. I may need to rethink that part of my resume.

6/1/11

shera - ok...So I'm supposed to be aloof on my linkedin? Then you would say no one would hire me because I'm being to picky. I didn't email everyone at every hedge fund right away - I emailed one analyst and one PM every three weeks from each firm. I had a system and was trying to build relationships. I'm glad that you think sans any real input that I'm an "uncommitted and directionless" person. I put my scores on my resume as they are part of my accomplishments and show that I am at least moderately intelligent; enough to pass the exams anyway. Aside from your rambling insults, which may be overlooked as you're a huge douche, you need to rethink your criticisms.

6/1/11

Sama, time to narrow down to the very few u wish to work for and personally call the manager themselves.
And of cos, standard rules apply and pitch your ideas.

All the best!

6/1/11

Wow, this sucks. I was unemployed for about 2 months when my shitty little "I Bank" basically went under. I panicked. I ended up getting a role as an analyst at a F500, which was not what I wanted to do but has turned into a decent career.

Things to think about.
1 - Why are you set on NY? Are you living with your parents or are you there bc of the finance opportunities? I'm not a NY basher, but if you've struck out at the IB's, HFs, etc... maybe it's not the place for you. Plus the UIUC name probably carries more weight in the midwest.
2 - Are you willing to take a ft role at a corporation? If so, it shouldn't be that hard for you, but NY may not be your place. I'll warn you now - many of the roles will be more accounting based (boring) but you can set a great career path for yourself.

If you'd consider Chicago I may be able to help you a little more. I have a few connections in the types of roles you're really looking for, but many more in corporate. I also know a pretty good corporate recruiter out here.

6/1/11

I'm not an expert at getting a job in finance by any means. But I can say I've learned how to be fairly socially manipulative... So I'll say this.

Contact someone at a firm you want to work for. Don't ask for a job; ask if you can buy them a drink. Seriously.

Stalk some people if you have to. Look at those hedge managers. Find the location of their firm, wait til they get off work, see if they all have a bar or restaurant or anything they hang out, find a to strike up an innocent conversation with them in person, when they ask what you do you can explain your backround and your job search.

They might be able to help. I almost got a job at Chase because I DD'd for a friend of a friend who worked there. Meet the guy once, drove him home from the bar and from that point on he was helping get a job. Unfortunately he got fired so that plan blew up. But what I took away from that experience was it's really all about making people like you so they will give you what you want. Make of it what you will, but it is what it is.

6/1/11

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

6/1/11
DealMaker1:

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

Ppppfffff... I'll take the opportunity! I need to make whatever it costs to live there. I actually think I have long lost relatives in the area I might be able to crash with.

Intern at PE >>>>> What I'm doing now.

Can I PM you?

6/2/11
Mammon:
DealMaker1:

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

Ppppfffff... I'll take the opportunity! I need to make whatever it costs to live there. I actually think I have long lost relatives in the area I might be able to crash with.

Intern at PE >>>>> What I'm doing now.

Can I PM you?

ur resume and monkeysama's resume is at a different level.

6/3/11
YE777:
Mammon:
DealMaker1:

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

Ppppfffff... I'll take the opportunity! I need to make whatever it costs to live there. I actually think I have long lost relatives in the area I might be able to crash with.

Intern at PE >>>>> What I'm doing now.

Can I PM you?

ur resume and monkeysama's resume is at a different level.

Haha, thats understandable. But for the record for everyone in the thread and to make a point... If i was offered an unpaid internship somewhere right now, preferably S&T... I would drive to whatever city
it was in and live out of my car. That's how far I'm willling to go. I don't think sama is at that point because he has a comfortable living situation. And I don't say that to knock you
Sama, I say that to maybe shed some light on where you are at.... Which might call for some drastic situations to change it. Today I was investment bank talkig to a VP. I would of never been there had I not hated
my situation so much. Enough to do anything and everything to
change it.
I was in a similar situation and realized my comfort was holding me back.

6/3/11
Mammon:
YE777:
Mammon:
DealMaker1:

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

Ppppfffff... I'll take the opportunity! I need to make whatever it costs to live there. I actually think I have long lost relatives in the area I might be able to crash with.

Intern at PE >>>>> What I'm doing now.

Can I PM you?

ur resume and monkeysama's resume is at a different level.

Haha, thats understandable. But for the record for everyone in the thread and to make a point... If i was offered an unpaid internship somewhere right now, preferably S&T... I would drive to whatever city
it was in and live out of my car. That's how far I'm willling to go. I don't think sama is at that point because he has a comfortable living situation. And I don't say that to knock you
Sama, I say that to maybe shed some light on where you are at.... Which might call for some drastic situations to change it. Today I was investment bank talkig to a VP. I would of never been there had I not hated
my situation so much. Enough to do anything and everything to
change it.
I was in a similar situation and realized my comfort was holding me back.

Mammon, in my opinion, who cares if your resume doesn't stack up to monkey's. If what you're saying above is true, you have heart, drive, and ambition. In my opinion, that goes a lot farther than a difficult triple major, any day of the week. It's a shame a lot of employers can't see that (or maybe they see that, it's just hard for them to measure heart, drive, and ambition in an interview). Nevertheless, keep your head up and continue grinding - somebody will notice (and value) that heart, drive, and ambition.

6/3/11
econ:
Mammon:
YE777:
Mammon:
DealMaker1:

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

Ppppfffff... I'll take the opportunity! I need to make whatever it costs to live there. I actually think I have long lost relatives in the area I might be able to crash with.

Intern at PE >>>>> What I'm doing now.

Can I PM you?

ur resume and monkeysama's resume is at a different level.

Haha, thats understandable. But for the record for everyone in the thread and to make a point... If i was offered an unpaid internship somewhere right now, preferably S&T... I would drive to whatever city
it was in and live out of my car. That's how far I'm willling to go. I don't think sama is at that point because he has a comfortable living situation. And I don't say that to knock you
Sama, I say that to maybe shed some light on where you are at.... Which might call for some drastic situations to change it. Today I was investment bank talkig to a VP. I would of never been there had I not hated
my situation so much. Enough to do anything and everything to
change it.
I was in a similar situation and realized my comfort was holding me back.

Mammon, in my opinion, who cares if your resume doesn't stack up to monkey's. If what you're saying above is true, you have heart, drive, and ambition. In my opinion, that goes a lot farther than a difficult triple major, any day of the week. It's a shame a lot of employers can't see that (or maybe they see that, it's just hard for them to measure heart, drive, and ambition in an interview). Nevertheless, keep your head up and continue grinding - somebody will notice (and value) that heart, drive, and ambition.

The above post was made on my iPhone... which explains the quality, heh.

Yeah, I appreciate the comment dude! In keep with the topic of this thread, about needing a job and doing anything, that's where I'm at.

I'm coming to this almost-zen-like state about the future and my job search. Since I was a teen I wanted to live and work in New York. (Since I saw Vanilla Sky really, haha). What did I do about it? Just went to college, figuring a degree and a job would get me there. Needless to say that's not the guess.

Right now i"m getting kicked ouf where I'm currently living (nothing bad on my part, my roommate's a moron who decided to move his girlfriend, her kid and her dog, that shits on everything, into a full 4 bedroom house and decided to just kick me out to make room). So I'm out on my ass... putting all of my personal belongings in storage, for the second time since moving away from college.

I've come to the realization that my life is daily grind at a job I hate so I can afford to skirt through the next crises that comes my way.

So I figured this, I'm not enjoying anything in life, and I want a job on Wall Street. I don't have a place to live. I don't want to live in this city. So... I might as well pack it up and just move to New York. If you want to work on Wall Street... LIVE ON IT! I'm SURE someone will give a smelly hobo a job! Haha

Seriously, that's where I am at. All of my time and energy goes into things I hate. I'd rather it go towards a future, no matter what that takes. I'm thinking I'll make the two day drive to New York, find a place for my car and live out of it while I try to land an unpaid internship on the Street. I can find a homeless shelter to maybe get some food and a shower, when I need it. I'm still on a family plan so I'll have my iPhone for internet access in order to network, send out my resume, make phone calls etc etc.

And if I'm really in desperate need of money (which I'm always in desperate need of money) then I'll get a job at McDonalds like Sama said he would do. That's the position when you'll take anything. That's when you want to work at McDonalds... when you can't eat food anymore.

You have a roof over your head and food in your belly monkeysama. You're still in a great spot, so don't give up! I read this Forex book where this guy snuck on the trading floor of banks in order to meet people and talk about getting a trading position. I'd love to do that and maybe you need to pulling crazier moves?

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6/1/11

I got my first intern job using LinkedIn.

6/1/11

DealMaker1 - I'm more or less financially settled thanks to wealthy relatives, but what I need most are friends and contacts. If you can promise me I might learn something and I won't just be getting coffee for people salary is negotiable.

Mammon - Man, I understand what you're saying. I've stalked some people (not literally of course), but I've struck out in any number of ways. I've yet to become creative enough to think of another. I've gone door to door to companies handing out resumes in the freezing rain (Chicago in January). I've called people at work and home. I've hung out at bars where people who work at places I want to work at work. No luck.

accountingbyday - I am definitely willing to relocate. I guess I went to NYC for the following reasons.

1 I always wanted to see the city and live here for a while.
2 NYC has 4 percent unemployment - almost entirely frictional.
3 It has great networking opportunities due to population density.
4 I wanted to get into finance and it is the heart of the financial world.

I'm not so dead set on finance as I used to be. It's something I think is neat and I'm passionate about, but at this point I just need a job, if to keep me from going batty. Definitely willing to go FT for a role in corporate if it has some sort of career path and I don't think the job will be outsourced tomorrow.

6/1/11
monkeysama:

DealMaker1 - I'm more or less financially settled thanks to wealthy relatives, but what I need most are friends and contacts. If you can promise me I might learn something and I won't just be getting coffee for people salary is negotiable.

...It's something I think is neat and I'm passionate about, but at this point I just need a job, if to keep me from going batty. Definitely willing to go FT for a role in corporate if it has some sort of career path and I don't think the job will be outsourced tomorrow.

Dude, your prior posts mentioned getting a job at McDonald's. I would like to think that getting coffee for people at a PE firm would be a much-needed step above that. If you can pull it off, go for it.

6/1/11
sofib09:
monkeysama:

DealMaker1 - I'm more or less financially settled thanks to wealthy relatives, but what I need most are friends and contacts. If you can promise me I might learn something and I won't just be getting coffee for people salary is negotiable.

...It's something I think is neat and I'm passionate about, but at this point I just need a job, if to keep me from going batty. Definitely willing to go FT for a role in corporate if it has some sort of career path and I don't think the job will be outsourced tomorrow.

Dude, your prior posts mentioned getting a job at McDonald's. I would like to think that getting coffee for people at a PE firm would be a much-needed step above that. If you can pull it off, go for it.

Sure. I didn't mean to sound flippant. I just wanted to communicate that I want to do something useful and learn about the business.

6/2/11
sofib09:

Dude, your prior posts mentioned getting a job at McDonald's. I would like to think that getting coffee for people at a PE firm would be a much-needed step above that. If you can pull it off, go for it.

Clearly, he never considered getting job at McD or as a clerk, he was just saying that in jest to emphasize how dire are his circumstances.

That's very similar to what my neighbors' kid did to his parents. When they would start bitching at him for getting a C, he would break into tears and yell " I can never please you, I'm just going to kill myself so that I couldn't disappoint you anymore!". Of course they would all freak out and start consoling him and telling him how they are proud of him and he is so smart, and not ground him for shitty grades, and then he'd go out and do whatever the f he pleased, as usual.

More is good, all is better

6/2/11
Argonaut:
sofib09:

Dude, your prior posts mentioned getting a job at McDonald's. I would like to think that getting coffee for people at a PE firm would be a much-needed step above that. If you can pull it off, go for it.

Clearly, he never considered getting job at McD or as a clerk, he was just saying that in jest to emphasize how dire are his circumstances.

That's very similar to what my neighbors' kid did to his parents. When they would start bitching at him for getting a C, he would break into tears and yell " I can never please you, I'm just going to kill myself so that I couldn't disappoint you anymore!". Of course they would all freak out and start consoling him and telling him how they are proud of him and he is so smart, and not ground him for shitty grades, and then he'd go out and do whatever the f he pleased, as usual.

No, that is incorrect. Please don't tell me what I will or won't do. And don't compare me to a child - in all likelihood I am older than you. June 15 I will be officially out of work for a year after having unsuccessfully tried to get an office job. I will get a job in retail or a Starbucks or something. It is better than not working and even if I don't need the money I need to get out of the apartment and do something useful or I'll go crazy.

It wasn't a threat or false humility as so many seem to think. It's my best current option and if anyone has anything better I'll try and go for that. I hadn't heard of clerk jobs, so I'll be applying to those as well.

6/1/11
DealMaker1:

I work for a PE firm here in Chicago and we had a few interns who bailed on us for the summer. What do you need to make?

monkeysama:

DealMaker1 - I'm more or less financially settled thanks to wealthy relatives, but what I need most are friends and contacts. If you can promise me I might learn something and I won't just be getting coffee for people salary is negotiable.

Clearly the wrong answer, Monkey. How can you title a post "Need Job - Will Take Anything" and then answer this guy in that way? The correct answer would of been, "I'll get coffee, as long as you pay me $X" (which shouldn't be many multiples of a McDonald's employee, assuming you haven't been bullshitting us all along).

6/1/11

Wait so you are financially "set" because of some wealthy (notice you did not say just rich) relatives and you are looking for a job? Dude just start your own business wtf are you doing?

I am sorry but I have very little sympathy for you in this situation since you are living off of your "relatives" money and are financially set. You are not like most people who actually have to work for a living. You just want to do it because its "neat"

Seriously?

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

6/1/11
ProdigyOfZen:

Wait so you are financially "set" because of some wealthy (notice you did not say just rich) relatives and you are looking for a job? Dude just start your own business wtf are you doing?

I am sorry but I have very little sympathy for you in this situation since you are living off of your "relatives" money and are financially set. You are not like most people who actually have to work for a living. You just want to do it because its "neat"

Seriously?

You have no idea about my monetary situation and your ignorance is showing. It makes you look crass and stupid.

I have enough money to take care of myself for one or two years. That's not enough to start a business or buy a franchise - I've been unemployed a year and have obviously looked at all of my options.

I don't just want a job because it's "neat" and I never said so. You need to learn when not to speak, it will go a long way to making yourself tolerable in polite company.

Best Response
6/1/11
monkeysama:
ProdigyOfZen:

Wait so you are financially "set" because of some wealthy (notice you did not say just rich) relatives and you are looking for a job? Dude just start your own business wtf are you doing?

I am sorry but I have very little sympathy for you in this situation since you are living off of your "relatives" money and are financially set. You are not like most people who actually have to work for a living. You just want to do it because its "neat"

Seriously?

You have no idea about my monetary situation and your ignorance is showing. It makes you look crass and stupid.

I have enough money to take care of myself for one or two years. That's not enough to start a business or buy a franchise - I've been unemployed a year and have obviously looked at all of my options.

I don't just want a job because it's "neat" and I never said so. You need to learn when not to speak, it will go a long way to making yourself tolerable in polite company.

Oh really? Becuase I think you just commented above that you want a job in finance because it is "neat" and because you are interested in the Finance sector.

Honestly you sound like a rich prick without any social skills. NO NO you have enough money to "take care of yourself in NYC" for the next one or two years. If you moved to Texas you could stretch that money into 3 years without spending tons of money in NYC.

This is reality kid You made yourself sound like a stuck up rich kid when most of the rest of the world would KILL to be in your position. Not having to work for 3 years because you had enough capital to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world?

And I am the crass and stupid one? I think you are the one who is not tolerable in polite company, I bet you come off as a robot or as I said stuck up rich kid. Just above you said that

"I can't wok on my social skills anymore because of x and y" Well there you go, you can't adapt.

I apologize for being harsh on you but your writing makes you seem like a rich prick who now has no other connections to get a job in the desired field of finance.

You sound like "I want a job in finance and SHOULD have it just because of my resume and background" Well sorry buddy that does not get you in. It is the ME ME ME I deserve this generation. No you don't deserve a job, or healthcare or money or anything else. You have to earn it.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

6/1/11

Having read what you've written in the past 2 pages, I don't think anyone on this forum would be willing to hire you either.

6/1/11

dealmaker1 sent you a PM. Cheers.

6/1/11

If anyone else has any more ideas/suggestions/comments please let me know.

6/1/11

Dude, have you tried consulting? You definitely have the requisite experiences and obviously a very good command of math and computer science. You could easily land something.

Try Boston. My grades/experiences are no where near as good as yours yet I have had some consulting job offers. You seem smart and from reading your posts you seem like you are way too intellectual to work at a bank. I think consulting would be great.

Also you may want to try some staffing firms.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

6/1/11

Hey Monkey,

Have you looked at this site? http://www.wallstreetservices.com/jobs

6/1/11

eokpar02- I have tried consulting but no luck.

jimz - Hadn't heard of that site. I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

6/1/11

econ - take the answer for what you want. I need to be able to learn something in the job. If I'm going to be used as a valet and not learn anything then the job is comparable to a job at McDonalds. I'm indifferent to money - it's knowledge and experience I need.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

econ - take the answer for what you want. I need to be able to learn something in the job. If I'm going to be used as a valet and not learn anything then the job is comparable to a job at McDonalds. I'm indifferent to money - it's knowledge and experience I need.

Except for the fact that it will be much easier to leverage PE experience, even if you are just snagging coffee. At a minimum, you should be able to convince people in the office that you're smart, hungry/driven, and have a strong work ethic (assuming you have these things in the first place), which can lead to an offer there. Even under a worse case scenario where the internship was literally comparable to McDonald's (just snagging coffee with zero chance of learning anything, making connections, or leading to a job there - notice this is ridiculous presumption) it would still be better than McDonald's because the pay is better. You might say, "But how? I'm indifferent to money!" Well, for one thing, why on earth would you be indifferent to money? I thought you said you were interested in trading. Don't you realize that every dollar above a McDonald's salary, is a dollar that you can invest in yourself and your trading strategies? Nobody is indifferent to money, even someone like you who claims he cares about "knowledge and experience" -- money can "buy" knowledge and experience. The more money you make as a PE intern, the more options you have otherwise (whether it be taking some time of to sit around and read, trading, doing an unpaid internship, going back to school, or a million other things). Lastly, you don't even have a job offer at McDonald's yet. You know what they say, one in the hand is worth two in the bush. Anyway, all this proves to me is that you don't want a job "that bad" -- you just kinda want it. I hope the guy who initially gave you that offer is watching all this and having second thoughts, as your replies smack of a bad attitude, lack of drive, or both.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

econ - take the answer for what you want. I need to be able to learn something in the job. If I'm going to be used as a valet and not learn anything then the job is comparable to a job at McDonalds. I'm indifferent to money - it's knowledge and experience I need.

I don't see how "McDonalds - took and filled coffee orders" and "PE Fund - support role for senior associates (because u won't be fetching coffee for fellow interns) " are even remotely comparable on a resume.

You really need to drop that melodramatic demeanor, it is not influencing people and not winning you friends.
"Looking for a perfect job" is a much better headline than "Willing to do anything".
With "Willing to do anything" you still don't come across as someone willing to do anything, and you insult the people who could offer you a dream job.
I don't know how a guy who offered you a PE internship feels, but my reaction would be: What the fuck? Did this kid just shit on my fund and likened it to McD?

More is good, all is better

6/1/11

If you're financially set to live for a couple of years as you said, why would you even contemplate working at McD? Are you so pessimistic on your chances that you'd work there? Take it from me, I worked in all sorts of crappy jobs when I was an undergrad. You get in and its hard to get out. Not saying McD will offer you massive benefits to keep you on or anything but the security of a job, even this job is the softest cushion known to man.

Some people have the drive and determination to break out of there but honestly, judging from your posts, you dont strike me as that someone with the drive or edge.

Completely agree with Econ, with the contradiction in your posts, I dont think I would hire you. PE firm offering to speak to you about an internship, jump at it.

I was offered a job at Credit Agricole, unpaid for several months before evaluation and I was considering it. That's before I was slapped with reality by WSO and jumped at it even though I dont live in London currently. I travel in every day. Its a nightmare but I do it. This is coming from an Oxford graduate, and I hold a master's from UCL, think ivy league in US.

And the issue with your resume, completely agree. Red flag to note your attempts at law school etc and not going ahead with it. I have the toughest time to explain why I quit my job at a law firm to change career directions so good luck explaining that.

Cut the crap and speak about the position at the PE firm. Good luck and let us know how you got on.

6/1/11

Hmph.

I distictly remember some guy on this forum audciously declaring that he would stand in front of the CBOT building and hand out resumes until he got a job or his balls froze off.

Where'd that guy go? I liked him: he had balls!

Now whoever's siezed control of the Monkeysama account is saying that he's had 12 interviews and has nothing.

Put another way, he has a list of 12 companies and 12 names and 12 email addresses and 12 telphone numbers of 12 contacts of people who will put you on their payroll *tonight*...

..But...

...Gosh, golly.....

...Darn...

....Gee wiz...

you can't think to figure out how to follow-up.

What, they hired some other guy and said no to you? So? People get fired, promoted, quit all the time. The employer has a choice of combing back through that 50,000 or so resumes that have piled up, or you could step in and drop 'em a line and hint that you could be the guy they're looking for, saving them the truoble.

Think about it: they fished your resume out of the 50,000 look-alike resumes thay have on file, they saw something they liked enough to clear their day and bring you in, they've interviewed you and were ready to pull the trigger, perhaps to you or to the other guy who maybe tied with you.

They went with another guy who was maybe tied with you.

And?

Give 'em another shot, perhaps this is the one...!

If you have any misgivings, feel free to give me that list of 12 companies and 12 names and 12 email addresses and 12 telphone numbers of 12 people that are actively interviewing and hiring people and I can auction it off and make a little extra coin. Why not? You ain't doing anything with them....!

6/1/11

While there are contradictions in your posts, I understand what you're looking for. You want a job/internship that will get you experience and give you connections that you can use to further your full-time job search.

The main problem I think your having is letting emotion get in the way of your job search. Can the job search be frustrating? Yes. Do you want to let others see your frustration? No. As soon as you let negativity creep into the search, it's the first thing a recruiter/HR person will pick up on. Thus why people were giving you hell for making your LinkedIn status or whatever what you made it.

You need an outlet for the frustration, pick up boxing, squash, tennis, etc. Just don't let the desperation or frustration get in the way of what you're trying to accomplish.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

6/1/11
D M:

While there are contradictions in your posts, I understand what you're looking for. You want a job/internship that will get you experience and give you connections that you can use to further your full-time job search.

Yes, thank you. You understand. As far as frustration goes I do what I can.

6/2/11
monkeysama:
D M:

While there are contradictions in your posts, I understand what you're looking for. You want a job/internship that will get you experience and give you connections that you can use to further your full-time job search.

Yes, thank you. You understand. As far as frustration goes I do what I can.

I think I finally understand why you made this post... You respond positively to the posts that "feel for you" and negative (or, in some cases, neutral) to the ones offering you constructive criticism. I don't think you started this because you're mainly looking for a job, but rather to feel sorry for yourself and feel justified by hearing from those who commiserate for (and with) you.

6/2/11
econ:
monkeysama:
D M:

While there are contradictions in your posts, I understand what you're looking for. You want a job/internship that will get you experience and give you connections that you can use to further your full-time job search.

Yes, thank you. You understand. As far as frustration goes I do what I can.

I think I finally understand why you made this post... You respond positively to the posts that "feel for you" and negative (or, in some cases, neutral) to the ones offering you constructive criticism. I don't think you started this because you're mainly looking for a job, but rather to feel sorry for yourself and feel justified by hearing from those who commiserate for (and with) you.

econ - That is wrong. I respond tit for tat. If someone is nice to me I respond positively, if someone is negative I respond negatively. The same as any other human being on the planet.

Constructive criticism is one thing. So far in this thread I have been called directionless, spoiled, stuck up, uncommitted, and now you think I have a bad attitude and don't want a job "that bad". None of this is true in the least and none of it helps me find a job. It's just shallow name calling.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

econ - That is wrong. I respond tit for tat. If someone is nice to me I respond positively, if someone is negative I respond negatively. The same as any other human being on the planet.

I think part of the problem is that folks are looking at some of your posts and how you respond to others and getting a sort of "Dwight Schrute" impression and the thread is starting to snowball on you. Perhaps it is time to take a "Jim" approach, and say, "OK, you're right" as you roll your eyes to yourself and plan what snarky thing you're going to say to the camera later.

Constructive criticism is one thing. So far in this thread I have been called directionless, spoiled, stuck up, uncommitted, and now you think I have a bad attitude and don't want a job "that bad". None of this is true in the least and none of it helps me find a job. It's just shallow name calling.

Ehh, I see some level of negativity coming from you in your response to those comments. OK, so someone thinks you're directionless. Fine. You think you're perfectly rational. Say, "OK, maybe" and move on.

6/2/11
IlliniProgrammer:
monkeysama:

econ - That is wrong. I respond tit for tat. If someone is nice to me I respond positively, if someone is negative I respond negatively. The same as any other human being on the planet.

I think part of the problem is that folks are looking at some of your posts and how you respond to others and getting a sort of "Dwight Schrute" impression and the thread is starting to snowball on you. Perhaps it is time to take a "Jim" approach, and say, "OK, you're right" as you roll your eyes to yourself and plan what snarky thing you're going to say to the camera later.

Constructive criticism is one thing. So far in this thread I have been called directionless, spoiled, stuck up, uncommitted, and now you think I have a bad attitude and don't want a job "that bad". None of this is true in the least and none of it helps me find a job. It's just shallow name calling.

Ehh, I see some level of negativity coming from you in your response to those comments. OK, so someone thinks you're directionless. Fine. You think you're perfectly rational. Say, "OK, maybe" and move on.

Hmm....you're probably right. I'll just respond to people who are furthering dialog in constructive ways and if the thread is too poisoned for hope I'll just let it die. I didn't plan on it being this monstrosity in any case and it's a little unfair to keep bumping the thread back to the top of the queue.

6/2/11
IlliniProgrammer][quote=monkeysama:

econ - That is wrong. I respond tit for tat. If someone is nice to me I respond positively, if someone is negative I respond negatively. The same as any other human being on the planet.

I think part of the problem is that folks are looking at some of your posts and how you respond to others and getting a sort of "Dwight Schrute" impression and the thread is starting to snowball on you. Perhaps it is time to take a "Jim" approach, and say, "OK, you're right" as you roll your eyes to yourself and plan what snarky thing you're going to say to the camera later.

^^^^
Yeah, the OP definitely gives off that vibe. It's all about perception in this game...

6/2/11
monkeysama:
econ:
monkeysama:
D M:

While there are contradictions in your posts, I understand what you're looking for. You want a job/internship that will get you experience and give you connections that you can use to further your full-time job search.

Yes, thank you. You understand. As far as frustration goes I do what I can.

I think I finally understand why you made this post... You respond positively to the posts that "feel for you" and negative (or, in some cases, neutral) to the ones offering you constructive criticism. I don't think you started this because you're mainly looking for a job, but rather to feel sorry for yourself and feel justified by hearing from those who commiserate for (and with) you.

econ - That is wrong. I respond tit for tat. If someone is nice to me I respond positively, if someone is negative I respond negatively. The same as any other human being on the planet.

Constructive criticism is one thing. So far in this thread I have been called directionless, spoiled, stuck up, uncommitted, and now you think I have a bad attitude and don't want a job "that bad". None of this is true in the least and none of it helps me find a job. It's just shallow name calling.

It's not necessarily name calling. Most people who posted don't even "know" you and are just sharing the way you come across. If it is not the way you ARE, then you need to sit down and think what in your behavior sends out these misrepresenting signals. It seems to me you are not particularly self aware.
If you came into the interview, and answered to the obvious and expected question of "why didn't you have a job for a year" in a manner different from "I try, I'm desperate, I just don't get lucky", you probably could have gotten a job.
Why don't you try saying: " I have been looking for a perfect job and a perfect company for me, using the downtime to work on my trading strategy. I am very glad to interview with you for this position because this is exactly what I've been looking for as it would give me an opportunity to [insert the reasons you like the position]. Moreover, I am perfectly qualified for this position because [insert reasons how your qualifications fit the job responsibilities].
I have researched the company culture, and what I really like about your company is that [insert reasons, i.e. Many employees mention open door policy, and I would like to be able to speak to my boss and coworkers without an appointment and get things done efficiently. Just make sure you did real research and cite real reasons]

Pretty much turn every question into an opportunity for a sales pitch.
Your interviewer is not your personal career service and it is not his/her job to figure out where you fit in if you dont even seem like you would want to work in their company

More is good, all is better

6/2/11
monkeysama:
econ:

I think I finally understand why you made this post... You respond positively to the posts that "feel for you" and negative (or, in some cases, neutral) to the ones offering you constructive criticism. I don't think you started this because you're mainly looking for a job, but rather to feel sorry for yourself and feel justified by hearing from those who commiserate for (and with) you.

econ - That is wrong. I respond tit for tat. If someone is nice to me I respond positively, if someone is negative I respond negatively. The same as any other human being on the planet.

There's nothing wrong with that monkey, it is human nature. But, when you come on a forum with this sort of post, you have to try your hardest to watch that (since, after all, human nature is not always what's good for you). By the way, I hope you took more from my post than the quote above, since it was really the minor point I was making. More importantly, I'm telling you that you shouldn't of responded to the PE internship like that. You should of seized that opportunity. Even if you're just fetching coffee, you should still seize it. And, to be honest, I suspect you might have a little bit of a bad attitude. But, attitudes can always be improved, so I'm not saying it's going to hold you back long term - just something you might want to work on a little. (That is, if I'm right. I could always be totally wrong, since I've never even met you in person.) You're a smart guy, but a lot of other characteristics are just important for success (such as, drive and a good, or at least decent, attitude).

6/1/11

DanceswithVols - 3 weeks getting drunk at all the trader bars. Going door to door to all the trading houses and giving my resume to reception. I handed out my resume at CBOT to people smoking outside. My failures are not for lack of trying. I'm not following your reasoning - they interviewed me and rejected me after speaking with me. How does this make them more likely to hire me in the future? They know as much as they can about a person before they hire them and they don't want me. Yes, they were hiring - for 1 position six months ago. So what?

FinancialNoviceII - Many people are reading a lot into very little that was actually said. I said that I was interested in learning and accomplishing something. How this is viewed as a bad thing is beyond me.

6/1/11
monkeysama:

I said that I was interested in learning and accomplishing something. How this is viewed as a bad thing is beyond me.

Yea, after you said 'Will take anything' which probably has people confused.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

6/1/11
happypantsmcgee:
monkeysama:

I said that I was interested in learning and accomplishing something. How this is viewed as a bad thing is beyond me.

Yea, after you said 'Will take anything' which probably has people confused.

Oh, I see. If I would work for someone for free at a PE firm and I would get no marketable skills and not learn anything then I would be better off at a McDonalds job as I would be getting paid. I'm indifferent to money, I just don't want to be taken advantage of. I can see how this has some people confused.

6/1/11
monkeysama:
happypantsmcgee:
monkeysama:

I said that I was interested in learning and accomplishing something. How this is viewed as a bad thing is beyond me.

Yea, after you said 'Will take anything' which probably has people confused.

Oh, I see. If I would work for someone for free at a PE firm and I would get no marketable skills and not learn anything then I would be better off at a McDonalds job as I would be getting paid. I'm indifferent to money, I just don't want to be taken advantage of. I can see how this has some people confused.

Are you serious? I'm sure Fed Reserve ---> Unpaid PE intern (with BS experience) is better than Fed Reserve -->McDonalds Fry Cook. Especially if your "indifferent to money"

6/2/11
monkeysama:

DanceswithVols - 3 weeks getting drunk at all the trader bars. Going door to door to all the trading houses and giving my resume to reception. I handed out my resume at CBOT to people smoking outside. My failures are not for lack of trying. I'm not following your reasoning - they interviewed me and rejected me after speaking with me. How does this make them more likely to hire me in the future? They know as much as they can about a person before they hire them and they don't want me. Yes, they were hiring - for 1 position six months ago. So what?

Monkeysama, what danceswithvols says is that they may have rejected you because a superstar (which let's face it you are not) was competing for that position with you, and not because they disliked you.
You are like the cute solid girl at the bar guys would hit at and gladly take home after their attempts to pick up the hottie knock out failed. Just make yourself available until the closing time instead of storming off right as you see everyone clamoring for the hottie's attention. Or come back the next day, you'll get lucky eventually.

Also a company may have decided against you because of your seeming non-committal , and by contacting them again you would reinforce that you like the company enough to be still considering them

More is good, all is better

6/1/11

Who said you're 'not getting paid' though? The guy asked 'what you need to make' not 'we're looking for UNPAID interns'. I think it's fine that you want to gain something out the experience - in fact, it's important that you try and find a job that will allow you to build marketable skills to let you gain ground for future opps. But I think what has rubbed other posters the wrong way is the way you answered the guy.

You should have said - I'd be very interested to learn more about the firm, can we talk via PM? And then ask him more about the position (e.g. tell me about the firm, what kind of investments do you look at, what kind of work do interns get to do... etc.) And THEN if he tells you you're just making cold calls and photocopies, THEN you can politely decline, if you so choose. The way you answered might give people the impression of entitlement...

Even if we assumed the job wouldn't give you much in the form of marketable skills, it's still good to have on your outdated resume. It only gets harder and harder to find work with a large unemployment time gap. Having it at least gives other employers (assuming the PE shop doesn't hire FT from internship pools) some assurance that you haven't been 'dicking around' this last year (you haven't - but having something on the resume is better proof of that than your word) or that you are indeed employable. People tend to think 'is there a reason why he hasn't gotten something' - and this definitely came across in this thread since you do seem to come from a decent school and background.

If I were in your shoes (and I was at one point) I would have jumped all over that post. And especially given you're not financially strapped, I would care a lot more about having the momentum (getting something credible on my resume) than the cash. And it's a PE shop - even if you're doing a lot of coffee runs, if you're smart, you'd take any free time you have to learn on your own - flip through some investment memos, ask questions, volunteer to do things, try to look through models yourself and MAKE THEM realize you're good so they'll give you work.

6/1/11

"My failures are not for lack of trying. I'm not following your reasoning - they interviewed me and rejected me after speaking with me. How does this make them more likely to hire me in the future"

Really?

The first full-time job I ever got was a runner at the CME. I got the job *after* the guy they originally chose, quit after a week or two.

In other words, they interviewed me, rejected me and chose someone else. That guy quit. Then I got my shot.

As far as working for free, I worked for free then entire summer of 2004 just to get a shot at a trader position.
At first, I was offended ("How dare they? I have experience. I have a Master's.")

Then I read a NYT article about how students who wanted to work at the U.N. were required to work in a free internship first (and somehow afford to live in the most expensive city in the US at the same time). Those who didn't have the internship would not be selected, no matter where they got their degree.

That changed my mind and I was "F- yeah, I'll be an assistant trader at your desk for free for the summer! I'll be the best f'n assistant you ever had!"

Oh, yeah, the other 3 free interns were Masters and PhD kids from MIT (bond desk), UChicago (Eurodollar desk) and CalTech (ETF arbitrage group)...

Sometimes the free internship is the on-ramp (I just gave two examples) or it will be the barrier that will forever prevent you from getting what you're seeking.....

6/1/11

Kanon - I hear what you're saying. I think I managed to rub people the wrong way with how I responded to him, and I am interested in learning more about the opportunity and didn't mean any disrespect. I don't have any entitlement or ego left at this point if that's what people think.

6/1/11

^ That's good to hear. Hopefully you're talking to him about the opportunity because it sounds like a good one. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

6/2/11

If he wont take the opportunity because as I have said multiple times now he seems like a rich stuck up entitled kid, I will gladly take te guy up on the internship position!

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

6/2/11

monkeysama, if you look at this situation in a positive light, I think you just learned what your weakness might be, and what you could/should work on to end up landing a job.

Good luck!

6/2/11

monkeysama,

I am a little concerned by your posts, and I hope that this is just a misunderstanding rather than your actual attitude when you approach interviews, job opportunities, etc.

Here is some advice (take it or leave it, not bashing you just trying giving you my advice based on the information I have at hand):

I believe that you are going into interviews with the wrong attitude. One of your previous posts writes:

"I don't know if I want to go through all of it, but I've had hedge funds want me to tell them what monetary policy was going to be before hand (real classy), boutique IB firms that were writing memos on how Bernanke is crazy and ruining the economy (and use me as some sort of analyst/evidence of the fact), transfer pricing firms that were very shady (I don't want to help companies avoid taxes - it's dirty). I could tell you stories."

I understand if you don't want to participate in unethical work, but first of all transfer pricing is not helping companies avoid taxes, it is actually there to help companies follow the law while making as much money as possible. It is the same thing as any other profession. You want to be a trader, well you probably want as much of an advantage as possible without breaking the law, right?

There seem to be a lot of excuses or reasons as to why things don't work out. My first point of advice would be to take responsibility and don't assign blame to others.

Another post (regarding an interview with Bridgewater) you take a condescending tone about how they had you take the Myers-Briggs. Quoted here:

"They made me take a briggs-meyer and another personality test. It's kind of endearing actually, like the little kid who tries to buy something with monopoly money.

I mean they really believe that they publicly espouse a kind of anarcho-capitalist survivalist philosophy and they DON"T expect me to make my personality test reflect that. It's not exactly rocket science to be less than honest on these things. So in the end they self select for people willing to tell them what they want to hear.

I haven't even interviewed with them yet and I already don't really trust them."

Again, this is just off of the information I have, but if you walked into an interview room with this attitude, or even a hint of this attitude you will not get the job. I think that your comment regarding the PE position was another attitude issue.

I'm hoping that these are just miscommunications, but if not I think that working on a positive attitude and a "I'll work hard and do anything it takes to make this work" attitude will help you out. Just my advice, again I don't even know you, all I know about you are the few posts I've read.

6/2/11

I think now with this bit of an attitude adjustment you'll get a job...now go kill it.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

6/2/11
blackfinancier:

I think now with this bit of an attitude adjustment you'll get a job...now go kill it.

I dont think he has otherwise he wouldnt have been challenging us when we offered constructive criticism. Its a case of I know best.

6/2/11
FinancialNoviceII:
blackfinancier:

I think now with this bit of an attitude adjustment you'll get a job...now go kill it.

I dont think he has otherwise he wouldnt have been challenging us when we offered constructive criticism. Its a case of I know best.

Being unemployed for so long and with employers giving you less benefit of the doubt (since 'the crisis' has passed awhile ago) must be tough. It is incredibly frustrating when you can't land something despite all your efforts, or you always get close but it ends up to be another dead end. You're bound to get defensive when people insinuate that you 'haven't been trying your best' - because it's like people are spitting on all your efforts. It's incredibly difficult to stay positive after 1 yr of searching, you lose confidence in yourself over time and you're going to be sensitive - maybe even get peeved when people suggest very obvious avenues (e.g. try calling alumni?).

I think monkeysama could have handled some things better (like that response to the PE opening for example), but I don't get a sense of entitlement from him - more like frustration, and not thinking all too rationally because of it (pursuing a finance internship, even a low or unpaid one, should be more meaningful than status quo or McD's). He should receive constructive criticism positively, and take negative comments or harsh criticism in stride, but I think if you try to put yourself in his shoes, you might understand where some of this is coming from.

6/2/11
Kanon][quote=FinancialNoviceII:
blackfinancier:

I think now with this bit of an attitude adjustment you'll get a job...now go kill it.

I dont think he has otherwise he wouldnt have been challenging us when we offered constructive criticism. Its a case of I know best.

Being unemployed for so long and with employers giving you less benefit of the doubt (since 'the crisis' has passed awhile ago) must be tough. It is incredibly frustrating when you can't land something despite all your efforts, or you always get close but it ends up to be another dead end. You're bound to get defensive when people insinuate that you 'haven't been trying your best' - because it's like people are spitting on all your efforts. It's incredibly difficult to stay positive after 1 yr of searching, you lose confidence in yourself over time and you're going to be sensitive - maybe even get peeved when people suggest very obvious avenues (e.g. try calling alumni?).

monkey - I do understand the frustration from looking so long (perhaps for something specific, location and job-wise) and not getting anything. But in such a case as yours, you need to broaden your search criteria and consider some of the opportunities mentioned on this board in Chicago. I would imagine others in a similar position would jump on such roles.

6/2/11

--

6/2/11
Kanon:
FinancialNoviceII:
blackfinancier:

I think now with this bit of an attitude adjustment you'll get a job...now go kill it.

I dont think he has otherwise he wouldnt have been challenging us when we offered constructive criticism. Its a case of I know best.

Being unemployed for so long and with employers giving you less benefit of the doubt (since 'the crisis' has passed awhile ago) must be tough. It is incredibly frustrating when you can't land something despite all your efforts, or you always get close but it ends up to be another dead end. You're bound to get defensive when people insinuate that you 'haven't been trying your best' - because it's like people are spitting on all your efforts. It's incredibly difficult to stay positive after 1 yr of searching, you lose confidence in yourself over time and you're going to be sensitive - maybe even get peeved when people suggest very obvious avenues (e.g. try calling alumni?).

I think monkeysama could have handled some things better (like that response to the PE opening for example), but I don't get a sense of entitlement from him - more like frustration, and not thinking all too rationally because of it (pursuing a finance internship, even a low or unpaid one, should be more meaningful than status quo or McD's). He should receive constructive criticism positively, and take negative comments or harsh criticism in stride, but I think if you try to put yourself in his shoes, you might understand where some of this is coming from.

I completely agree with everything you said. I was in his shoes to an extent, when I left my law firm. I was questioned and ridiculed about my choices, by my own family even, who made much of the same remarks about me not making an effort. So I understand.

What I didnt understand was his reactions to someone offering him an olive branch, They didnt have to but his demeanour sucked. Granted this is an internet forum, and he could be the greatest guy and interviews really well, is sociable etc but just had serious bad luck but how can someone consider him or put in a good word for him when criticism, which bear in mind he asked for by laying out his situation here, whether constructive or just plain silly, stings him so badly? Is he going to react like that if he doesnt get a job all the time? Does he speak to potential clients in that manner? Again, he likely doesnt because he has a solid background but these questions emerge.

His frustration is not painting a great picture of him. He ought to learn to control his emotions a bit. Especially when confronted with potential recruiters as was. The PE opportunity. If he wanted some more details about the role (i.e. will he be getting coffee or copying whatever), surely that conversation should have been over PM rather then for all to see to avoid backlash like ha has been getting.

Listen, there's no ill will from anyone here. Everyone pretty much has been in your position once, and understands what you're going through but you gotta admit some errors on your part. Quit being so defensive.

That said, I wish you the best of luck and report back to everyone about your success.

6/2/11

theATL - It's funny you mention the personality test. I later learned that everyone who took that test had the same results as it was relatively easy to find out what the company was testing for. My comment was that the test was nothing but an echo chamber, telling the company what they wanted to hear and screening for people who were good at lying to them. If I were to take the test honestly I wouldn't have gotten that result and neither would the other candidates. What this has to do with being good at the job is beyond me.

6/2/11

Monkey,

I totally agree with theATL on your refusal to consider transfer pricing. It is definitely legal and you seem to think you're above it. I honestly believe you don't mean to, but it's obvious that that is how you are coming off to some members. I'm not saying you actually think you're above certain roles, but at least some people perceive that to be true.

The biggest issue I have is your response to my post. I completely understand your reasoning for moving to NY and you even laid it out well. What concerns me is that I told you I had connections at corporate positions in Chi and a pretty good recruiter that I trust. You said that you'd consider a corporate role, but that was it. I was CERTAIN that I'd come in this morning with a PM and we would be able to discuss what you're looking for and I'd also pass along the recruiters contact info. That didn't happen. You said in your post that you'd look at a corporate role and then you left it at that. Honestly, that's not enough effort on your part. Just because some random guy on a forum wants a job doesn't mean I hand him one. I gave you a wide open lead and you really never followed through on it.

6/2/11
accountingbyday:

Monkey,

I totally agree with theATL on your refusal to consider transfer pricing. It is definitely legal and you seem to think you're above it. I honestly believe you don't mean to, but it's obvious that that is how you are coming off to some members. I'm not saying you actually think you're above certain roles, but at least some people perceive that to be true.

The biggest issue I have is your response to my post. I completely understand your reasoning for moving to NY and you even laid it out well. What concerns me is that I told you I had connections at corporate positions in Chi and a pretty good recruiter that I trust. You said that you'd consider a corporate role, but that was it. I was CERTAIN that I'd come in this morning with a PM and we would be able to discuss what you're looking for and I'd also pass along the recruiters contact info. That didn't happen. You said in your post that you'd look at a corporate role and then you left it at that. Honestly, that's not enough effort on your part. Just because some random guy on a forum wants a job doesn't mean I hand him one. I gave you a wide open lead and you really never followed through on it.

I guess that says it all. Thread closed.

6/2/11
accountingbyday:

Monkey,

I totally agree with theATL on your refusal to consider transfer pricing. It is definitely legal and you seem to think you're above it. I honestly believe you don't mean to, but it's obvious that that is how you are coming off to some members. I'm not saying you actually think you're above certain roles, but at least some people perceive that to be true.

The biggest issue I have is your response to my post. I completely understand your reasoning for moving to NY and you even laid it out well. What concerns me is that I told you I had connections at corporate positions in Chi and a pretty good recruiter that I trust. You said that you'd consider a corporate role, but that was it. I was CERTAIN that I'd come in this morning with a PM and we would be able to discuss what you're looking for and I'd also pass along the recruiters contact info. That didn't happen. You said in your post that you'd look at a corporate role and then you left it at that. Honestly, that's not enough effort on your part. Just because some random guy on a forum wants a job doesn't mean I hand him one. I gave you a wide open lead and you really never followed through on it.

I don't do transfer pricing because it is immoral. I don't think I'm above it so much as I don't think I could physically do it as I would be morally repulsed - so much so that I couldn't force myself into work every morning. I think it's a way to use the economic profession to validate a company shirking its tax liability to the state which cheapens our profession and hurts the majority for the benefit of the few. It's robbery with a brief case rather than a shotgun.

As far as your offer I was trying to politely say, "YES PLEASE CONSIDER ME FOR WHAT POSITIONS YOU HAVE AVAILABLE. I AM INTERESTED." Maybe I didn't say that right and if I didn't clearly communicate my interest I apologize. Just to be clear if anyone has anything for me please please PM me and we can talk about details or tell me that I should PM you and we can set up a dialog.

6/2/11

Why is everyone surprised he doesn't have a job with a triple major with a 3.5 at a top 50 state school? Econ, math, and stats are extremely easy at UIUC.

6/2/11
MoCo:

Why is everyone surprised he doesn't have a job with a triple major with a 3.5 at a top 50 state school? Econ, math, and stats are extremely easy at UIUC.

You don't know what you're talking about.

6/2/11

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

6/2/11
happypantsmcgee:

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

I guess when I said that I'd take anything I was ruling out stabbing people in the parking lot and taking their money as well, but I didn't think that had to be said. I find transfer pricing to be morally repugnant and I can't do it because I think it's one of the things destroying this country. I've already said I'd work for free if I thought the job would teach me something or provide some training.

6/2/11
monkeysama:
happypantsmcgee:

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

I guess when I said that I'd take anything I was ruling out stabbing people in the parking lot and taking their money as well, but I didn't think that had to be said. I find transfer pricing to be morally repugnant and I can't do it because I think it's one of the things destroying this country. I've already said I'd work for free if I thought the job would teach me something or provide some training.

Yea dude, transfer pricing and stabbing people in parking lots is the same thing.

I'm done.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

6/2/11
monkeysama:
happypantsmcgee:

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

I guess when I said that I'd take anything I was ruling out stabbing people in the parking lot and taking their money as well, but I didn't think that had to be said. I find transfer pricing to be morally repugnant and I can't do it because I think it's one of the things destroying this country. I've already said I'd work for free if I thought the job would teach me something or provide some training.

MonkeySama, your last post left me scratching my head. How in the world can you look down at firms that use transfer pricing when you worked for the Federal Reserve, an institution that has shit on the value of the dollar and done far more damage to the livelihoods of Americans than GE not paying taxes?

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment.
-Styles P

6/2/11
eokpar02:
monkeysama:
happypantsmcgee:

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

I guess when I said that I'd take anything I was ruling out stabbing people in the parking lot and taking their money as well, but I didn't think that had to be said. I find transfer pricing to be morally repugnant and I can't do it because I think it's one of the things destroying this country. I've already said I'd work for free if I thought the job would teach me something or provide some training.

MonkeySama, your last post left me scratching my head. How in the world can you look down at firms that use transfer pricing when you worked for the Federal Reserve, an institution that has shit on the value of the dollar and done far more damage to the livelihoods of Americans than GE not paying taxes?

oooh interesting, I really want to see the response here. Monkeysama...plz what you got here?

6/2/11
happypantsmcgee:

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

This reply pretty much sums it up...

monkeysama:
happypantsmcgee:

So when you say "Need a Job, will take anything." You really mean, "Need a job, will take anything but transfer pricing, anything I don't feel like I can learn from, anything that I feel is beneath me or anything I find the slightest bit objectionable on any grounds I deem appropriate."

Come on man, go work for free. Plenty of people do it. I don't know where you got this idea that they're taking advantage of you by allowing you to work for free...?

I guess when I said that I'd take anything I was ruling out stabbing people in the parking lot and taking their money as well, but I didn't think that had to be said. I find transfer pricing to be morally repugnant and I can't do it because I think it's one of the things destroying this country. I've already said I'd work for free if I thought the job would teach me something or provide some training.

Well, I guess I'm done here... (Did you seriously just compare transfer pricing to murder? Earlier you compared it to robbery with a briefcase. You do realize that transfer pricing is completely within the law, right? I guess you think people should just hand over more money to the government than they have to, because it's there duty or whatever. I guess you also think that accountants who save people like Warren Buffet and Bill Gates some tax money are morally repugnant too? What about those accountants who do it to people of more modest incomes? Anyway, these are rhetorical questions, so please don't answer them. Even if you are totally against transfer pricing, you've had other opportunities in this thread, so it's really not even about transfer pricing...)

6/2/11

They both take money through force from someone else while contributing nothing to society. They both are morally wrong. GE pays zero dollars in US taxes because it conveniently comes up with zero profits in its tax forms to the IRS despite record profits. Meanwhile this country is contemplating defaulting on its debt and is running huge deficits. I can't be a part of something so terrible and wrong and corrupt. I just can't for all the tea in China. If you think this makes me stuck up or privileged and you can't see how awful this is I don't think anything else I say will be able to convince you.

6/2/11

Monkeysama,

I'm sorry, but your story just isn't adding up. Rich kid who lives off "wealthy" relatives in New York and thinks finance is "neat" stated that he's about to go work for McDonalds. That absolutely does not make any sense. Naive Entitlement + Faux Humility = Lie. We're all human (relatively speaking) so quit with the heirs, or be forthcoming.

But seriously, I do hope you find work. I would argue that if you've been out of work for that long in NY and you want to get into finance, you're at a distinct disadvantage. Either go back to school, back to ChiTown or go work for someone to at least put something on your resume so that you can highlight the finance components. Otherwise you're just blood in the water...

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time

6/2/11
vadremc:

Monkeysama,

I'm sorry, but your story just isn't adding up. Rich kid who lives off "wealthy" relatives in New York and thinks finance is "neat" stated that he's about to go work for McDonalds. That absolutely does not make any sense. Naive Entitlement + Faux Humility = Lie. We're all human (relatively speaking) so quit with the heirs, or be forthcoming.

But seriously, I do hope you find work. I would argue that if you've been out of work for that long in NY and you want to get into finance, you're at a distinct disadvantage. Either go back to school, back to ChiTown or go work for someone to at least put something on your resume so that you can highlight the finance components. Otherwise you're just blood in the water...

You need to read my posts. I never said I was rich, don't think finance is "neat" (it is, but not in the airhead airquote tone you seem to be implying is my passing fancy).

I have a little money thanks to wealthy relatives. I am blessed that way and it would give me the opportunity to work for free if I were to learn something or make industry contacts. I would be willing to work at McDonalds because I need to work, to be doing something, and all my attempts to get an office job have not gotten me anywhere.

I enjoyed your quasi-mathematical lie statement - sounds like a tea party slogan. I'm not entitled or faux anything and what I'm lying about is up for grabs. I'm willing to work any job (sans transfer pricing) I can and the only thing I feel entitled to is to be recognized for the effort and work I put into any position I fill. That's it.

6/2/11

"sounds like a tea party slogan" DING DING DING and here I have confirmation! You are a flaming liberal which I suspected all along.

Well reality check number 2 for you MonkeySama, Liberals just like conservatives BEND the rules and CHEAT all the time. Same concept in transfer pricing that you keep railing about.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

6/2/11
ProdigyOfZen:

"sounds like a tea party slogan" DING DING DING and here I have confirmation! You are a flaming liberal which I suspected all along.

Well reality check number 2 for you MonkeySama, Liberals just like conservatives BEND the rules and CHEAT all the time. Same concept in transfer pricing that you keep railing about.

I'm more anti-politics (and politicians) than anything, but I guess you could say I'm more liberal than conservative. Bending rules and cheating is wrong no matter who does it and transfer pricing is straight up evil. If I had my way each politician would have the labels of who their corporate donors are on their suits, sort of like nascar.
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/assets_c/2011/03/O...

6/2/11

OP,

Did you start this thread to find job leads or let out frustration? Maybe both?

6/2/11
sleepingmonkey:

OP,

Did you start this thread to find job leads or let out frustration? Maybe both?

To find jobs honest! I can let out frustration on my own time with my own friends. I know the futility of trying to win an internet argument, but if people say things that are not true about me I feel I have to defend myself.

If you know of any jobs or opportunities, have any advice or would like to talk, feel free to PM me.

6/2/11
6/2/11
6/2/11

Read this this morning over my bagel. Perhaps the economy is not so fried as we all thought. Fingers crossed.

6/2/11

Argonaut - Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure if I can land a job at my university, but I hadn't thought of that and will definitely contact my Uni for advice. I do think I'm screwing up interviews so maybe practice interviews wouldn't be such a bad idea. As far as Feds policy - no actually they really did want me to steal information for them. Honest to god, I was so shocked and enraged I can't even describe it to you. They asked me if I had any pull at the Fed and if I could "cut red tape" and provide an "information advantage". Shady and crooked as all hell. Still makes me mad just thinking about it.

6/2/11
monkeysama:

Argonaut - Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure if I can land a job at my university, but I hadn't thought of that and will definitely contact my Uni for advice. I do think I'm screwing up interviews so maybe practice interviews wouldn't be such a bad idea. As far as Feds policy - no actually they really did want me to steal information for them. Honest to god, I was so shocked and enraged I can't even describe it to you. They asked me if I had any pull at the Fed and if I could "cut red tape" and provide an "information advantage". Shady and crooked as all hell. Still makes me mad just thinking about it.

do a wso mock interview, they'll give you some feedback that appears you need to hear

6/2/11
monkeysama:

Argonaut - Thanks for sharing. I'm not sure if I can land a job at my university, but I hadn't thought of that and will definitely contact my Uni for advice. I do think I'm screwing up interviews so maybe practice interviews wouldn't be such a bad idea. As far as Feds policy - no actually they really did want me to steal information for them. Honest to god, I was so shocked and enraged I can't even describe it to you. They asked me if I had any pull at the Fed and if I could "cut red tape" and provide an "information advantage". Shady and crooked as all hell. Still makes me mad just thinking about it.

Learn to have a little control of the interview, i.e. if they start asking about your relatives and it's not a connection you want to leverage, give a one-liner vague response and change the subject.
For example, interviewer asks: "so what exactly do your relatives do for Fed?"
You say: "I think they have a decision making role, but we don't really talk about it.
What can you tell me about the job responsibilities? What qualities would your ideal candidate possess?"
Pretty much don't let the interview meander too far off topic.
When you are asked about something illegal it is better to express complete ignorance rather than outrage.
If you are asked about something you consider unethical (such as transfer pricing) it is better to say "a position dealing with transfer pricing is not for me, however I would like to be considered for other opportunities"
I mean you don't need to justify why you don't want to do that, just tell them you don't want to, they can't make you.

More is good, all is better

6/2/11

Monkeysama, I highly doubt they were not just fucking with you.
I mean if you were going to be working for them, how would you have access to the Fed?

If all else fails, bring a recorder with you to the interviews.

More is good, all is better

6/2/11
Argonaut:

Monkeysama, I highly doubt they were not just fucking with you.
I mean if you were going to be working for them, how would you have access to the Fed?

If all else fails, bring a recorder with you to the interviews.

They weren't and you don't know what you're talking about. They were asking me to use friends and connections to get them inside information. And it was a phone call - I thought ethical standards were high enough in the industry that I wouldn't have to record my every conversation.

6/2/11

Oh, and I don't mean a job at the university, i mean some companies probably contact your prof and ask whom would he recommend, or he can contact them and say I got a bright kid that would be perfect for position X, would you care to interview him?

More is good, all is better

6/2/11
Argonaut:

Oh, and I don't mean a job at the university, i mean some companies probably contact your prof and ask whom would he recommend, or he can contact them and say I got a bright kid that would be perfect for position X, would you care to interview him?

Ah that makes a little more sense.

6/2/11

Another thing I would recommend is finding an experienced recruiter dealing with the companies you like, reach out to him/her and be like " listen, I have good pre-requisites, but something is lacking in my delivery. I would love to become an asset to you and the companies you recruit for, but I think I need some help getting to that level. What would you recommend I do?". You will at least get an interview guide and a little bit of free career coaching and market overview. If you establish a personal relationship with a recruiter, they will help you best prepare for an interview and even give you suggestions on how to present negatives in a more positive light.

More is good, all is better

6/2/11

There's a post that says we had a few interns bail on us from a PE firm in Chicago -- this sounds like Blackmore Partners from another thread (no comment - could be good opportunity).

That said, monkeysama, if you have good credit, lever up on the GradPLUS loans, the Federal loans (30K max), and get a MSF/MIM/MMS from a brand name in the US and start the process over -- or have this ready for next year, if all else fails.

If you find a job to your liking and ability, you can simply decline the offer. Always have 2 paths.

I suggest name brand internships off-cycle, applying to schools with your outstanding test scores -- that will earn you a scholarship of 50% at least -- and pick up a new skillset. This may be anything from a MSA (Accounting) to say, one of those Master in Management degrees Anthony has mentioned on this site.

When you are off-cycle and don't have that many powerful people as friends -- this is the tried and proven way.

Good luck!

6/2/11

For now, get an internship -- even unpaid -- at somewhere people know. Then study, prep your grad school applications -- and when you introduce yourself, your narrative will be I worked at X and Y, but I've decided to take the logical choice of furthering my education, while earning pocket money at X firm.

Going back to school will be good for your soul. Everything changes, everything is new. You'll have a leg up over everyone else, and no excuses for not finding a job.

I agree with whomever said recruiters/HR like people with jobs more. If your work gap grows any larger, you are unemployable in the US. I have no faith in the gambling process. For my pre-masters internship this summer, I beat out 30+ undergrads or more at IB PWM simply because of this narrative, and I was willing to be humble and learn. I didn't leave anything up to chance.

The job market is shit, has been shit for the past 2.5 years, and it will continue to be.

6/2/11

wolfy - I don't think it's Blackmore Partners. If it is though it would be an example of a company I would not work at - it sounds like they pay subminimum wage for no real training or expertise which is not only immoral but against federal labor laws. This thread (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/blackmore-pa...) seems to be an example of what people think of the firm. That is why I worry and am suspect of many internship type positions.

I have thought of going back to school, but I am not willing to spend more money on education if I don't have a firm belief that I can get a job when I get out. As the economy stands right now I don't think that is the case - I am worried a bit by the prospect of a double dip recession either from Greece imploding, US default on debt, the collapse of the Chinese housing market, or the collapse of the Yen carry trade. Any of those could mean I would be stuck holding the bag on any debt I would incur.

6/3/11
monkeysama:

wolfy - I don't think it's Blackmore Partners. If it is though it would be an example of a company I would not work at - it sounds like they pay subminimum wage for no real training or expertise which is not only immoral but against federal labor laws. This thread (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/blackmore-pa...) seems to be an example of what people think of the firm. That is why I worry and am suspect of many internship type positions.

I have thought of going back to school, but I am not willing to spend more money on education if I don't have a firm belief that I can get a job when I get out. As the economy stands right now I don't think that is the case - I am worried a bit by the prospect of a double dip recession either from Greece imploding, US default on debt, the collapse of the Chinese housing market, or the collapse of the Yen carry trade. Any of those could mean I would be stuck holding the bag on any debt I would incur.

I never think about Greece, the US debt, or a collapse that's going to take 20 more years--take it from my friends who flip the properties and are inflating the bubble in China. I just think about: How am I going to put bullet holes in this other kid who's trying to get my internship or job? Although I worked in strategy consulting already, I'm reading "Case in Point" again to get ready for a new year of McKinsey/Bain/BCG recruiting -- flipping through my old guides, calling friends for advice, etc. well ahead of the recruiting schedule.

What's going to happen is the kids who just graduated, who haven't found jobs, are going flood their alma maters. 2011, 2012, and people 2-3 years out of work. So we're all in the same room. A recruiter looks at your resume: solid grades, triple major, semi-target, 2 years work experience, going to sit down for the CFA, took the LSAT already with a great score -- they're going to ask you. What have you been doing since?

If you have ANYTHING on that resume before they ask you this, you are immune, and they will interview you. Not McDonalds, Not Starbucks, but a brand name one-liner internship. Doesn't matter what industry (I'm serious). As long as you've been trying to learn something AND if you say to them, by the way I work at Starbucks at night to support myself, while I'm taking these exams to demonstrate my achievement / capability -- this is going to go well for you.

But if you come to my school, wherever that is, and I'm next to you, and I didn't graduate yet -- I'm "thinking about my future" -- I'm going to destroy you during the interview. Because I'm trainable / brainwashable, and I have the same or better experience as you. IF you have something current like an internship (which I will most likely have as well), then we match up equally. This is the ideal situation and where you can shine.

I seriously think you can earn a scholarship. These programs give merit based scholarships for anything above 700. The debt load would be 40k at most, minus living expenses.

I thought about school too. I thought about it everyday. Every single day. I read all the beatthegmat, gmatclub posts on MSc, etc. etc. -- and I realized, yeah, 40K is pretty cheap. I'll give you 2 suggestions: LBS Master in Management (deadline in THREE days) -- if you can get 2 recommendations in 3 days, this is still open. Duke Fuqua MMS, LSE (all programs) -- but the job market will suck for them. ETC.

McKinsey is always going to hire new grads, 25% of the firm is new every year. Entry-level (and by this I mean 60K+ jobs) ibanking / consulting will hire you if you get a new degree and put in the work to network.

Really, really think about this. That's all I can offer. If you are willing to do anything for a job, the next Teach for America deadline is this September. I've interviewed with people 1-2 years without jobs, but land an offer. Perhaps most applications to grad. schools are closed now, but if you're in this year, you go through recruiting in September/October, internship recruiting November, and last minute recruiting in March.

It's not August yet. I would not hire a person who has worked Starbucks or McDonalds over someone who did an unpaid internship at say, (just an example) Rutberg & Co. (they don't pay) or a boutique I thoroughly research. Starbucks really isn't going to impress me. I worked at Dunkin' Donuts in high school, and I know the whole deal: good, honest work. But every other college grad. is doing the same thing.

Get an internship, apply to school, do the Starbucks thing at night. The world is really cold and harsh, and it doesn't give a shit if you are working hard at McDonalds. You'll just have a really, really expensive degree.

I've learned early on, nothing is too good for me, and every job--regardless of industry, prestige, pay, salary--is an incremental learning experience.

Anyway, school. Please think about it some more. I know while finding a job, you can be yourself on some days, and other times, not yourself. Just don't get trapped. Take a risk.

6/2/11

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

6/2/11
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Sounds interesting. Why don't you PM me and we can talk more about it.

6/3/11
monkeysama:
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Sounds interesting. Why don't you PM me and we can talk more about it.

Whoa wait a minute MonkeySama, so you are telling me you are totally morally agaisnt transfer pricing YET you worked for 2 years for the scum of the earth the Federal Reserve AND you think it is perfectly okay to

CHARGE EXTREMELY POOR people in other countries 200% weekly interest for a microloan? Haven't you read about all the abuses in the microloan industry in india?

Get a f---ing life man. This thread needs to end because your attitude makes me boil. Even though I am calm ! hehe.

The one who does not fall, does not stand up

6/2/11
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Seriously? That's your plan?

6/2/11
FinancialNoviceII:
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Seriously? That's your plan?

What's wrong with it? Something small to do in one's off time.

6/2/11
PinnacleMan:
FinancialNoviceII:
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Seriously? That's your plan?

What's wrong with it? Something small to do in one's off time.

If nothing else, the existence of ridiculously high interest rates and the phenomenal repayment rates are nearly mutually exclusive.

6/2/11
Dr Joe:
PinnacleMan:
FinancialNoviceII:
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Seriously? That's your plan?

What's wrong with it? Something small to do in one's off time.

If nothing else, the existence of ridiculously high interest rates and the phenomenal repayment rates are nearly mutually exclusive.

Dude, this completely off topic...but conventional loan parameters do not apply to microloans. The principal amount is so small (usually <$100), that turning a profit requires high interest rates. Additionally, the recipients of the loans represent such poor creditworthiness, that micro-lenders are able to charge exorbitant rates - as lenders of last resort. This helps them ensure sustainability as well.

No offense, but you should really do some research on Microfinance before you shoot down the model.

6/2/11
PinnacleMan:
Dr Joe:
PinnacleMan:
FinancialNoviceII:
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Seriously? That's your plan?

What's wrong with it? Something small to do in one's off time.

If nothing else, the existence of ridiculously high interest rates and the phenomenal repayment rates are nearly mutually exclusive.

Dude, this completely off topic...but conventional loan parameters do not apply to microloans. The principal amount is so small (usually <$100), that turning a profit requires high interest rates. Additionally, the recipients of the loans represent such poor creditworthiness, that micro-lenders are able to charge exorbitant rates - as lenders of last resort. This helps them ensure sustainability as well.

No offense, but you should really do some research on Microfinance before you shoot down the model.

What he is saying is that people who need to pay high interest loan rates to borrow $100, usually do not have the assets/income/earning opportunities AND/OR incentive to be able to pay back at phenomenal repayment rates.

More is good, all is better

6/2/11
Argonaut:
PinnacleMan:
Dr Joe:
PinnacleMan:
FinancialNoviceII:
PinnacleMan:

Just an idea...

We should start a small, for-profit microloan program that starts by lending to India (I have the connections there and a way to disburse in a small slum). The absurdly high interest charged, and phenomenal repayment rates for microloans would mean that with sufficient volume (expansion is key) we could turn a profit. Your experience as a country analyst would be invaluable and I helped set up a microloan program while at college (still running and successful albeit non-profit).

This article shows there is potential in the space: http://www.economist.com/node/11376809

Seriously? That's your plan?

What's wrong with it? Something small to do in one's off time.

If nothing else, the existence of ridiculously high interest rates and the phenomenal repayment rates are nearly mutually exclusive.

Dude, this completely off topic...but conventional loan parameters do not apply to microloans. The principal amount is so small (usually <$100), that turning a profit requires high interest rates. Additionally, the recipients of the loans represent such poor creditworthiness, that micro-lenders are able to charge exorbitant rates - as lenders of last resort. This helps them ensure sustainability as well.

No offense, but you should really do some research on Microfinance before you shoot down the model.

What he is saying is that people who need to pay high interest loan rates to borrow $100, usually do not have the assets/income/earning opportunities AND/OR incentive to be able to pay back at phenomenal repayment rates.

Like I said, this is off topic:

But, the income/earning stems from stringent selection of loan applicants, who have well documented and viable business ideas. The revenues generated are used to pay back the interest and principal. Their businesses generally need very little seed capital but if successful (only viable business ideas!) they generate sufficient income to pay off their loans.

The INCENTIVE stems from the way the lending groups are set up - group lending. Supposing you have borrowers in a group - they are required to self-regulate. If one individual in a group defaults on a payment or is late, the rest of the group ceases to receive future funding. That is a very powerful incentive!

6/3/11

.

6/2/11
PinnacleMan:

Like I said, this is off topic:

But, the income/earning stems from stringent selection of loan applicants, who have well documented and viable business ideas. The revenues generated are used to pay back the interest and principal. Their businesses generally need very little seed capital but if successful (only viable business ideas!) they generate sufficient income to pay off their loans.

The INCENTIVE stems from the way the lending groups are set up - group lending. Supposing you have borrowers in a group - they are required to self-regulate. If one individual in a group defaults on a payment or is late, the rest of the group ceases to receive future funding. That is a very powerful incentive!

For example, the Grameen Bank's high repayment rate does not reflect the number of women who are repeat borrowers that have become dependent on loans for household expenditures rather than capital investments.[citation needed] Studies of microcredit programs have found that women often act merely as collection agents for their husbands and sons, such that the men spend the money themselves while women are saddled with the credit risk.[1][34] As a result, borrowers are kept out of waged work and pushed into the informal economy.

Because field officers are in a position of power locally and are judged on repayment rates as the primary metric of their success, they sometimes use coercive and even violent tactics to collect installments on the microcredit loans. Some loan recipients sink into a cycle of debt, using a microcredit loan from one organization to meet interest obligations from another.[1] Also, counter to the original intention of the microcredit system to empower women, one of the effects of an infusion of cash into local economies has been to increase dowries, with women forced at times to take microcredit loans as the only means to pay these increased dowries for their daughters

Doesn't sound like a viable model to me...

Also, some studies reveal that the repayment rate of Grameen's loans does not match anywhere near what the bank claims, that at least one quarter of its loans were being used for household consumption and there is no serious supervision of bank, which leads to bank delaying defaults and hiding problem loans

Doesn't sound like phenomenal repayment either...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit

More is good, all is better

6/3/11
Argonaut:
PinnacleMan:

Like I said, this is off topic:

But, the income/earning stems from stringent selection of loan applicants, who have well documented and viable business ideas. The revenues generated are used to pay back the interest and principal. Their businesses generally need very little seed capital but if successful (only viable business ideas!) they generate sufficient income to pay off their loans.

The INCENTIVE stems from the way the lending groups are set up - group lending. Supposing you have borrowers in a group - they are required to self-regulate. If one individual in a group defaults on a payment or is late, the rest of the group ceases to receive future funding. That is a very powerful incentive!

For example, the Grameen Bank's high repayment rate does not reflect the number of women who are repeat borrowers that have become dependent on loans for household expenditures rather than capital investments.[citation needed] Studies of microcredit programs have found that women often act merely as collection agents for their husbands and sons, such that the men spend the money themselves while women are saddled with the credit risk.[1][34] As a result, borrowers are kept out of waged work and pushed into the informal economy.

Because field officers are in a position of power locally and are judged on repayment rates as the primary metric of their success, they sometimes use coercive and even violent tactics to collect installments on the microcredit loans. Some loan recipients sink into a cycle of debt, using a microcredit loan from one organization to meet interest obligations from another.[1] Also, counter to the original intention of the microcredit system to empower women, one of the effects of an infusion of cash into local economies has been to increase dowries, with women forced at times to take microcredit loans as the only means to pay these increased dowries for their daughters

Doesn't sound like a viable model to me...

Also, some studies reveal that the repayment rate of Grameen's loans does not match anywhere near what the bank claims, that at least one quarter of its loans were being used for household consumption and there is no serious supervision of bank, which leads to bank delaying defaults and hiding problem loans

Doesn't sound like phenomenal repayment either...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit

True...but with that being said, why would SKS associates IPO in India, if it did not believe that the model would work. The company itself might be somewhat mismanaged and often takes advantage of borrowers, but this does not detract from the fact that investors saw profit potential in the venture and helped raise the ~$360 million collected when it went public.

The Grameen Band and Yunus were pioneers, doesn't mean they perfected the model. They operate by minimal wages to their collectors, admin. etc. You pay shit, you get shit. Besides, you cite Grameen - I'll cite Kiva. Tell me that model is broken.

6/2/11

After (finally) reading through all of the posts, I have some serious advice for you Monkey. It may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I shit you not, I am dead fucking serious. (If you have any doubts about my seriousness, call my bluff - send me a PM and I will tell you the same thing, over and over again. Hell, I'll even hop on IM or the phone, just to prove to you that this is serious advice.) Take a job at McDonald's, Starbucks, Nordstrom's, a nicer restaurant, or even a bar. I seriously think it'll be the best thing that happened to you. It seems, you are a little bit entitled, have an attitude, and are maybe even a little bit socially awkward. A job like that will actually do a lot for someone like you - it'll teach you a lot. This will allow you to live off of your own sweat (as opposed to some of your relatives money). It'll probably improve your attitude, as well as your social skills. I know I've completely changed my tone/advice since the beginning of this thread, but I am as serious as a heart attack man, get one of these jobs that doesn't require a college degree, and do it as soon as possible. (Again, if you think I'm being sarcastic, contact me one-on-one. If you think I'm being serious, but are curious about my logic, still feel free to contact me one-on-one.)

6/2/11
econ:

After (finally) reading through all of the posts, I have some serious advice for you Monkey. It may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I shit you not, I am dead fucking serious. (If you have any doubts about my seriousness, call my bluff - send me a PM and I will tell you the same thing, over and over again. Hell, I'll even hop on IM or the phone, just to prove to you that this is serious advice.) Take a job at McDonald's, Starbucks, Nordstrom's, a nicer restaurant, or even a bar. I seriously think it'll be the best thing that happened to you. It seems, you are a little bit entitled, have an attitude, and are maybe even a little bit socially awkward. A job like that will actually do a lot for someone like you - it'll teach you a lot. This will allow you to live off of your own sweat (as opposed to some of your relatives money). It'll probably improve your attitude, as well as your social skills. I know I've completely changed my tone/advice since the beginning of this thread, but I am as serious as a heart attack man, get one of these jobs that doesn't require a college degree, and do it as soon as possible. (Again, if you think I'm being sarcastic, contact me one-on-one. If you think I'm being serious, but are curious about my logic, still feel free to contact me one-on-one.)

monkeysama, no offense but the man speaks the truth

6/2/11
econ:

After (finally) reading through all of the posts, I have some serious advice for you Monkey. It may sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I shit you not, I am dead fucking serious. (If you have any doubts about my seriousness, call my bluff - send me a PM and I will tell you the same thing, over and over again. Hell, I'll even hop on IM or the phone, just to prove to you that this is serious advice.) Take a job at McDonald's, Starbucks, Nordstrom's, a nicer restaurant, or even a bar. I seriously think it'll be the best thing that happened to you. It seems, you are a little bit entitled, have an attitude, and are maybe even a little bit socially awkward. A job like that will actually do a lot for someone like you - it'll teach you a lot. This will allow you to live off of your own sweat (as opposed to some of your relatives money). It'll probably improve your attitude, as well as your social skills. I know I've completely changed my tone/advice since the beginning of this thread, but I am as serious as a heart attack man, get one of these jobs that doesn't require a college degree, and do it as soon as possible. (Again, if you think I'm being sarcastic, contact me one-on-one. If you think I'm being serious, but are curious about my logic, still feel free to contact me one-on-one.)

I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt (with that PE internship deal and how it was handled), but since then it seems like there's a negative pattern... So either go with what econ's saying, or maybe think about helping others even less fortunate. Maybe look at microfinance type funds - I vaguely remember one or two that have analysts with country research type backgrounds. Or work with some emerging mkt foundations. Seems like you're still trying to figure out what to do if you're refusing some opps presented here despite being out of work for so long, or you're still being too picky even when you can't afford to be.

So in the meantime, overseas volunteering might be a good option. You'll have something interesting on your resume (for work or some stories for future b-school plans), get to travel (since you seem to have some funds for it), you'll get some time away from home to reflect on next steps, and maybe gain some perspective on what others less fortunate have done with what little they have.

6/2/11

I don't think OP will be able to get a job at starbucks - they usually only hire hot people, and monkeysama has a weight problem. Maybe Subway? That way he can pull a Jared and lose not only his bad attitude, but also some of that estrogen-laden substance that is making him so whiney.

More is good, all is better

6/2/11

^Did this in college and for a few years after and yes, group lending does work. Not only are they self regulating but they also take care of your collectors should you choose to get a few.

Back on topic though; I really have to say man, I'm surprised how you're letting this whole mentality of yours fuck up your efforts. I mean shit, you always had an entitled, liberal streak here man but not rising above it especially when you've been on the job search for a year is inexcusable.

A lot, practically every successful person be he a banker or a farmer has seen or has probably taken a lot shit during the course of their careers, they got rewarded not for being a pussy and quitting/whining because "it goes against whatever", but because they dealt with it, they took what they had and they made something out of it.

If you keep that mentality and insist on waiting for the perfect pitch, you my friend, will most probably strike out.

Man the fuck up.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people Jeremy

6/2/11

Jorge - What did you use to group lend in college? Was it just you and a bunch of friends, contacts at a banking firm or organization, or was it through a website?

I like the micro lending idea, but I think it would be hard to do the due diligence (kick the tires) of who I'm lending to if I'm not actually in the country I'm lending. I think that's why microlending is so expensive (for the borrowers) because they usually have no collateral and repayments are risky and trust is hard to build.

6/3/11

It was just me, had a few contacts to do the (very minimal) leg work though. It varies case to case obviously but for DD I asked for anything that could be tied to some semblance of income, from notarized income tax returns to certifications of employment. It sucks because you know it could be forged so you might have to go with gut feel for most.

What you guys should really try lending to are the sharks, they pay serious interest whenever ask for extensions, etc. The higher rates they give to others the better. Had one shark who charged 10% a month miss a payment and without blinking, she ok'd me bumping her rates to 12% a month lol.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis, you can't trust people Jeremy

6/3/11

Um, companies IPO to raise money. I.e. They probably need money.
If my business model was doing amazingly and I was making lots of money as is, why would I be giving up control and subjecting myself to more paperwork and regulatory BS for more money?

Just because investors "saw profit potential", doesn't mean it's there.
Plenty of companies IPOd only to become eventually delisted due to the price dropping like a rock

The Field Partner collects repayments from Kiva entrepreneurs as well as any interest due and lets Kiva know if a repayment was not made as scheduled. Interest rates are set by the Field Partner, and that interest is used to cover the Field Partner's operating costs. Kiva doesn't charge interest to its Field Partners and does not provide interest to lenders. Kiva also gives Field Partners the option to cover currency losses.

There are the phenomenal repayment rates, but where is the high interest rate?

More is good, all is better

6/3/11
Argonaut:

Um, companies IPO to raise money. I.e. They probably need money.
If my business model was doing amazingly and I was making lots of money as is, why would I be giving up control and subjecting myself to more paperwork and regulatory BS for more money?

Just because investors "saw profit potential", doesn't mean it's there.
Plenty of companies IPOd only to become eventually delisted due to the price dropping like a rock

The Field Partner collects repayments from Kiva entrepreneurs as well as any interest due and lets Kiva know if a repayment was not made as scheduled. Interest rates are set by the Field Partner, and that interest is used to cover the Field Partner's operating costs. Kiva doesn't charge interest to its Field Partners and does not provide interest to lenders. Kiva also gives Field Partners the option to cover currency losses.

There are the phenomenal repayment rates, but where is the high interest rate?

Thanks for affirming the phenomenal repayment rates part, AND this completes the case I made:

The nature of microcredit - small loans - is such that interest rates need to be high to return the cost of the loan.

"There are three kinds of costs the MFI has to cover when it makes microloans. The first two, the cost of the money that it lends and the cost of loan defaults, are proportional to the amount lent. For instance, if the cost paid by the MFI for the money it lends is 10%, and it experiences defaults of 1% of the amount lent, then these two costs will total $11 for a loan of $100, and $55 for a loan of $500. An interest rate of 11% of the loan amount thus covers both these costs for either loan.

"The third type of cost, transaction costs, is not proportional to the amount lent. The transaction cost of the $500 loan is not much different from the transaction cost of the $100 loan. Both loans require roughly the same amount of staff time for meeting with the borrower to appraise the loan, processing the loan disbursement and repayments, and follow-up monitoring. Suppose that the transaction cost is $25 per loan and that the loans are for one year. To break even on the $500 loan, the MFI would need to collect interest of $50 + 5 + $25 = $80, which represents an annual interest rate of 16%. To break even on the $100 loan, the MFI would need to collect interest of $10 + 1 + $25 = $36, which is an interest rate of 36%. At first glance, a rate this high looks abusive to many people, especially when the clients are poor. But in fact, this interest rate simply reflects the basic reality that when loan sizes get very small, transaction costs loom larger because these costs can't be cut below certain minimums." - Kiva website (http://www.kiva.org/about/microfinance)

6/3/11

Entry Level Job Search Engine and Tip Website
http://www.onedayonejob.com/

Financial/Accounting Temp Agency
http://www.accountemps.com/

Training and Job Search Engine
http://www.emc.com/college

Entry-level Finance Jobs
http://www.careerrookie.com/s/bank-finance-jobs

Financial Job Marketplace
http://www.efinancialcareers.com/resumes/

Finance and Accounting Job Search Engine
http://www.roberthalffinance.com/

Wall Street Services Temporary Agency
http://www.wallstreetservices.com/

Finance/ Accounting Job Search Engine
http://www.net-temps.com/jobs/accounting/

6/3/11
lonelybankerchick:

Entry Level Job Search Engine and Tip Website
http://www.onedayonejob.com/

Financial/Accounting Temp Agency
http://www.accountemps.com/

Training and Job Search Engine
http://www.emc.com/college

Entry-level Finance Jobs
http://www.careerrookie.com/s/bank-finance-jobs

Financial Job Marketplace
http://www.efinancialcareers.com/resumes/

Finance and Accounting Job Search Engine
http://www.roberthalffinance.com/

Wall Street Services Temporary Agency
http://www.wallstreetservices.com/

Finance/ Accounting Job Search Engine
http://www.net-temps.com/jobs/accounting/

Hey thanks. I've tried a few of these but hadn't heard of all of them. Good resource.

6/3/11

Pinnacle man, pretty much the structure of Kiva loans is that you lend money, get it back at some point without interest, while an army of loan sharks distributes those loans in the community, enforces repayment (oftentimes through violence) and collect the exorbitant interest rates.
You don't make any money and you don't help out anyone except for the loan sharks

More is good, all is better

6/3/11

Hey Monkey, where have you submitted applications since starting this thread? Also, just curious, have you applied to any restaurants, coffee shops, bars, etc. (before or after creating this thread)? Keep your head up man, you'll find something. I seriously, honestly think that you should be applying for the type of jobs you listed in the original post. I'm not saying you can't do better, I just think it'd be a good move. Keep us posted.

6/3/11

econ - I have mostly been applying through positions pointed out to me from people in this post and especially reaching out to people who have said they may have something for me. Direct contact with real life human beings seems far more productive than black box resume dropping on career sites. Even if things don't work out I make friends.

6/3/11

Monkey - agreed, just asking man.

6/3/11

Resume Advice:

Why did you not join a prop firm?
What's up with the dual LSAT/CFA registration? It would only be impressive if your GPA was 4.0/4.0, but it's not.

General Advice:

Your in NYC and you cannot find a finance job? Have you exhausted your network, cold-called alumni/firms and made your interest clear + story clear on why you wanted to work in finance.

Work Harder. You want McDonalds, WTF is wrong with you, to the guy who said he should take McDonalds is f******* stupid...

START COLD-CALLING DUDE.

6/3/11
wikileaks:

Resume Advice:

Why did you not join a prop firm?
What's up with the dual LSAT/CFA registration? It would only be impressive if your GPA was 4.0/4.0, but it's not.

General Advice:

Your in NYC and you cannot find a finance job? Have you exhausted your network, cold-called alumni/firms and made your interest clear + story clear on why you wanted to work in finance.

Work Harder. You want McDonalds, WTF is wrong with you, to the guy who said he should take McDonalds is f******* stupid...

START COLD-CALLING DUDE.

You have internet in jail? Huh isn't that something.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

6/3/11

This thread kinda reads like a crappy romantic comedy sprinkled with a few bits of actual humor and thoughtful/concrete advice...

6/4/11

Interesting analogy.

6/4/11

Any luck?

http://ayainsight.co/ Curating the best advice and making it actionable.

6/4/11
Status_Quo:

Any luck?

I've had a few people contact me which is good, but the chance that each initial contact will result in a job is small - it's just the way it is. It has also been only a few days since I posted this question. If anyone has any more openings, leads, et cetera please contact me!

6/4/11

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

6/4/11
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

Oh, dont you need people skills and a sunny disposition for that job?

More is good, all is better

6/4/11
Argonaut:
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

Oh, dont you need people skills and a sunny disposition for that job?

Someone might take a chance on him, which might build people skills...

Bartender would be the same story (but probably even better socially).

6/4/11
econ:
Argonaut:
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

Oh, dont you need people skills and a sunny disposition for that job?

Someone might take a chance on him, which might build people skills...

Bartender would be the same story (but probably even better socially).

Would YOU jeopardize your business by hiring a waiter/bartender that is socially obtuse and suffers from a superiority complex?

More is good, all is better

6/5/11
Argonaut:

Would YOU jeopardize your business by hiring a waiter/bartender that is socially obtuse and suffers from a superiority complex?

Start small - like Red Robin, Applebee's, or maybe even fast food restaurants. In businesses with high turnover, you can usually find people willing to take a shot on you.

6/4/11
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

That salary has gotta be some kind of joke.

6/4/11
FinancialNoviceII:
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

That salary has gotta be some kind of joke.

I've actually heard there's a lot in NYC that do quite well. Of course, the cost of living is way higher, so maybe that evens it out...

6/4/11
econ:
FinancialNoviceII:
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

That salary has gotta be some kind of joke.

I've actually heard there's a lot in NYC that do quite well. Of course, the cost of living is way higher, so maybe that evens it out...

If this is supposed to be a salary figure, then most waiters are making well into six figures when tips are included, which I find unlikely. If it's supposed to be an estimate of how much waiters make on tips as well as salary then they have ways of accessing data that is intentionally kept from the IRS.

It's interesting, but I don't think the data is accurate.

6/4/11
monkeysama:
econ:
FinancialNoviceII:
econ:

Monkey, you're in NYC, right? Check this out:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Waiter%2Fwaitress&...

That salary has gotta be some kind of joke.

I've actually heard there's a lot in NYC that do quite well. Of course, the cost of living is way higher, so maybe that evens it out...

If this is supposed to be a salary figure, then most waiters are making well into six figures when tips are included, which I find unlikely. If it's supposed to be an estimate of how much waiters make on tips as well as salary then they have ways of accessing data that is intentionally kept from the IRS.

It's interesting, but I don't think the data is accurate.

Waiters can only hide cash tips, all credit card transactions have to be reported (paper trail).
Also even if all waiter transactions are cash only, they still have to report as income 10% of the cost of meals/drinks served, whether they got a tip or not.
Places like bar/restaurant at the W hire their staff full time and pay not only a salary, but also provide some pretty fucking competitive benefits: 401k, FSA, medical/dental, vacation, employee assistance, etc.
Add to that some pretty nice tips: let's say a waitress is serving 2 tables an hour, with $100 in food each (appetizer, entrees and drinks for 2) and they both leave a $20 tip - that's $40 an hour. Usually a good waiter/waitress can EASILY handle 3-4 small tables, and big tables order a lot more food (automatic 20% gratuity on $500 bill, if they don't order expensive alcohol, which they often do) . Then you get to really high end places and dinner for 2 isn't going to be under $350 - waiters in places like that make on avg $200/hr in tips

More is good, all is better

6/4/11

Ignore the guy who's brother is MD at Merrill Lynch NYC.

6/4/11

Waiters/bartenders make money off tips, not salaries.

6/4/11

Keep in mind that the vast majority of waiters/waitresses work at less-expensive places and also work part-time (10-20 hours/week). The guys pulling in big bucks as waiters usually have been doing it for a few years and are working at 4/5 star restaurants.

Thus, I'm guessing that would include tips and salary (which is generally only like $3 or $4 per hour)

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

6/4/11

^^^Yes, but you're talking about the top of the top, essentially the Wall Street of waiting jobs. Most waiters do not make this much money, even in NYC, nor get the kind of comp/benefits you mentioned for the W

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer
"Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee

6/4/11
D M:

^^^Yes, but you're talking about the top of the top, essentially the Wall Street of waiting jobs. Most waiters do not make this much money, even in NYC, nor get the kind of comp/benefits you mentioned for the W

neither do the majority of econ grads...

More is good, all is better

6/5/11
D M:

Yes, but you're talking about the top of the top, essentially the Wall Street of waiting jobs. Most waiters do not make this much money, even in NYC, nor get the kind of comp/benefits you mentioned for the W

Yes, but the question is how hard it is to be "the top of the top?" I'm not saying waiting tables is an easy job by any means. But, it's much easier to be a top-notch waiter, than it is to be a top-notch trader, banker, physicist, basketball player, etc.

6/6/11
econ:
D M:

Yes, but you're talking about the top of the top, essentially the Wall Street of waiting jobs. Most waiters do not make this much money, even in NYC, nor get the kind of comp/benefits you mentioned for the W

Yes, but the question is how hard it is to be "the top of the top?" I'm not saying waiting tables is an easy job by any means. But, it's much easier to be a top-notch waiter, than it is to be a top-notch trader, banker, physicist, basketball player, etc.

why does it matter how hard to be "the top of the top" ? anyone who tries to reach the "top of the top" is only reaching a landmark inside his/her own head. No one else besides the acolytes drinking the same koolaid really cares.

Stephen Hawking isn't a top physicist because he decided one day he wanted to be the top of the top, he just did the shit he liked, it produced some results, and those results happened to be useful.
Is he ridiculously smart? Absolutely, but there is at least a good handful of people who have even more raw intelligence than he does.
Is he ridiculously rich? Well, his net worth is rumored to be around 20 mil - by no means poor, but I am sure there's more than a handful of phd physicists that went to some hedge funds and became billionaires.
And I am pretty sure Hawking isn't losing any sleep over not being a billionaire, or not having enough intelligence for doing what he wants to do.

More is good, all is better

6/6/11
Argonaut:
econ:
D M:

Yes, but you're talking about the top of the top, essentially the Wall Street of waiting jobs. Most waiters do not make this much money, even in NYC, nor get the kind of comp/benefits you mentioned for the W

Yes, but the question is how hard it is to be "the top of the top?" I'm not saying waiting tables is an easy job by any means. But, it's much easier to be a top-notch waiter, than it is to be a top-notch trader, banker, physicist, basketball player, etc.

why does it matter how hard to be "the top of the top" ? anyone who tries to reach the "top of the top" is only reaching a landmark inside his/her own head. No one else besides the acolytes drinking the same koolaid really cares.

Stephen Hawking isn't a top physicist because he decided one day he wanted to be the top of the top, he just did the shit he liked, it produced some results, and those results happened to be useful.
Is he ridiculously smart? Absolutely, but there is at least a good handful of people who have even more raw intelligence than he does.
Is he ridiculously rich? Well, his net worth is rumored to be around 20 mil - by no means poor, but I am sure there's more than a handful of phd physicists that went to some hedge funds and became billionaires.
And I am pretty sure Hawking isn't losing any sleep over not being a billionaire, or not having enough intelligence for doing what he wants to do.

It matter how hard it is, because that's what determines your chances of getting there. To say, you have to be a "top of the top waiter" to make $X/year is meaningless, since it doesn't tell you how hard it is to be in that group. In some industries, desire with a little bit of work ethic is probably enough to get to the top within a few years. In many other industries, that's not the case.

Also, eep in mind that Hawking was probably much less motivated by money and much more motivated by being intelligent and respected as a physicist. It's not fair to compare that to a physics PhD who went to a hedge fund, since Hawking would never trade places with him.

6/6/11
econ:
Argonaut:
econ:
D M:

Yes, but you're talking about the top of the top, essentially the Wall Street of waiting jobs. Most waiters do not make this much money, even in NYC, nor get the kind of comp/benefits you mentioned for the W

Yes, but the question is how hard it is to be "the top of the top?" I'm not saying waiting tables is an easy job by any means. But, it's much easier to be a top-notch waiter, than it is to be a top-notch trader, banker, physicist, basketball player, etc.

why does it matter how hard to be "the top of the top" ? anyone who tries to reach the "top of the top" is only reaching a landmark inside his/her own head. No one else besides the acolytes drinking the same koolaid really cares.

Stephen Hawking isn't a top physicist because he decided one day he wanted to be the top of the top, he just did the shit he liked, it produced some results, and those results happened to be useful.
Is he ridiculously smart? Absolutely, but there is at least a good handful of people who have even more raw intelligence than he does.
Is he ridiculously rich? Well, his net worth is rumored to be around 20 mil - by no means poor, but I am sure there's more than a handful of phd physicists that went to some hedge funds and became billionaires.
And I am pretty sure Hawking isn't losing any sleep over not being a billionaire, or not having enough intelligence for doing what he wants to do.

It matter how hard it is, because that's what determines your chances of getting there. To say, you have to be a "top of the top waiter" to make $X/year is meaningless, since it doesn't tell you how hard it is to be in that group. In some industries, desire with a little bit of work ethic is probably enough to get to the top within a few years. In many other industries, that's not the case.

Also, eep in mind that Hawking was probably much less motivated by money and much more motivated by being intelligent and respected as a physicist. It's not fair to compare that to a physics PhD who went to a hedge fund, since Hawking would never trade places with him.

silly monkey, my point was that people don't reach some abstract top because they want to be on that top.
they reach some other measure - be it money, work life balance, pride, solving Fermat's theorem, beating a Guinness record for acquiring the most STDs in a given month - whatever.
My example with hawking was to illustrate to you that "top" is different for everyone, glad you are starting to get it.

More is good, all is better

6/6/11
Argonaut:

silly monkey, my point was that people don't reach some abstract top because they want to be on that top.

Then why do they reach it? It seems to me that there are many people who reach some "abstract" top because that's precisely what they intend to do.

6/6/11
econ:
Argonaut:

silly monkey, my point was that people don't reach some abstract top because they want to be on that top.

Then why do they reach it? It seems to me that there are many people who reach some "abstract" top because that's precisely what they intend to do.

Who cares? Odds are no one on this board is going to be the next Bill Gates/Cliff Asness/whatever, and if you are then debating such philosophical navel gazing is a waste of your time.

6/6/11
monkeysama:

Who cares? Odds are no one on this board is going to be the next Bill Gates/Cliff Asness/whatever, and if you are then debating such philosophical navel gazing is a waste of your time.

I don't think that's the point. The point is, there's "the top" in virtually everything. More importantly, how difficult it is to be in that upper echelon varies greatly depending on the specific thing in question. To aspire to be a great waiter (and make good money) is much easier than aspiring to be a great athlete, financier, scholar, entrepreneur, and a million other things. If someone was dead set on being a great waiter, I don't think they'd have too much trouble making solid money. And, this is not a philosophical waste of time, monkey. In fact, quite the opposite. You should find this discussion inspiring and practical, since I'm advising you to follow your original claim and pursue a career in any number of service industry jobs that don't require a college degree (such as waiting tables, serving coffee, tending bar, etc).

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