Salary Negotiation?

Do you guys generally try and negotiate your salary? Or do you generally just take the offer if you want the job? I've been applying to a lot of jobs over the past 5 months (I've been unemployed over that whole time period) and I've had a lot more interviews lately, so I'm hoping to close in on something soon. If I do get an offer, I'll be kind of confused at the offer stage and would be tempted to just accept any salary (assuming it's not ridiculously low and assuming I like the job/company). However, I'm not really sure if this a good strategy, nor how I'm supposed to go about negotiating a higher salary in a tactful way that doesn't make me look bad before starting the job (or maybe worse, having them just go with someone else instead). Any insights on this issue in general would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, guys.

 

Don't bother trying to negotiate at a BB or elite boutique. Maybe if you're going to a bank in NYC that's only paying 40k base and expecting you to work 90 hours/week. Your options are a bit limited as a first year analyst.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

You basically have to take their lead on it considering your situation. When I took my first job out of grad school, they gave me the offer and I signed. When I lateralled over, they asked me what I expected and I told them. It was very high but they agreed.

-MBP
 

Oops, I forgot to mention these are not finance related jobs. Think F500 companies, startups, small-medium sized companies, boutique strategy consulting, and market research/analytics firms. Sorry for not being clear.

 

How did you get the interviews? That also will determine your strategy. Did you apply to a posting? If so, was the salary specified? If it was, there's not much wiggle-room. If it wasn't, they'll probably ask you what you want. Then you need to think about what the job is worth and what you bring to the table. If you're reasonable and they like you, they'll agree. Some general tips:

Defer giving a number as much as possible. Try to get them to tell you their expectations of the position, and then maybe go 5-10% higher, but explain why it's worth it for you.

Once you give a number, you're basically committed. If you say, I want 60K base, and they say, well we're only offering 45, don't take it.

-MBP
 

Thanks for the insights, guys.

manbearpig:
How did you get the interviews? That also will determine your strategy. Did you apply to a posting? If so, was the salary specified? If it was, there's not much wiggle-room. If it wasn't, they'll probably ask you what you want.

Some have a salary range on the application. Others don't say anything about it, at all.

 

Ah for a corporation there is definitely more leeway. If you can pull an extra $5k (or even $10k) out of them, that will mean exponentially more over the course of your career (and it's nice right now, too). You better have some way to prove to them you are worth it, though.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 
<span class=keyword_link><a href=//www.wallstreetoasis.com/company/sac-capital>SAC</a></span>:
Just remember whatever salary you negotiate now will affect the salary at your future jobs. Its hard to ask for more than a $30K-$40K bump when switching jobs.

Does this apply to switching firms, as well as internal transfers? Or does it mainly apply to just one?

 

At the end of the day you're young and disposable. If you've been out of a job for 5 months then I think you should take whatever you can get (as long as the offer isn't disrespectufl/unreasonable).

 

Bump on this.

I just received an offer from my dream job at an internal corporate strategy consulting gig for a major financial services firm. The base compensation I received is in line with what I was expecting, based on the average provided by glassdoor. Is it worth it to try to negotiate a higher base salary? I'd be dealing with HR. The base salary will also affect my bonus. I was also under the impression that I'd be receiving a signing bonus of around $10K, but she never brought that up. Is that something I can ask for as well?

I'm thinking that maybe the reason she didn't bring up the signing bonus is because this is off-cycle hiring? Either way, this is an entry-level position and I don't want to negotiate for a couple thousand more and create some bad blood between me and HR/Company.

 

Research, know what the market is, and then counter with something slightly higher than what you would be happy with. Prepare to back up whatever you ask for with an educated argument as to why you are worth more than what they offered. Unless, for some reason, it becomes contentious there should be no reason that it would change or they would suddenly rescind the offer. In fact, it's probably worse not to negotiate. The worst thing that can happen, realistically and not knowing any details, is they say this is our best and final offer and then you determine whether the job/experience/upside is worth taking slightly less than the position is worth.

I have had one salary negotiation in my life and I absolutely, unequivocally, botched it but even while botching it and having zero leverage I ended up with a 10% bump from what they originally offered just because I countered. And it was still below market at that. Regardless, I think that the opportunity and experience was worth it to set myself up for better positioning down the line. Again, it's up to the individual what is worth what in a negotiation. For what it is worth though, don't just take the first offer.

 
derpherpderp4760:

Posting this on behalf of my girl friend:

She currently has an associate offer for a large real estate company in their acquisitions group. She thinks it might be slightly low, but is concerned with the potential pitfalls of negotiating her salary. She originally worked at a smaller company in a similar role, but her company had a massive layoff so I'm not sure if she has anything to bargain with...

What are your guys thoughts on situation? Does she have any leverage since she doesn't have any offers in hand? Or would she look stupid?

Isn't this one of those "Lean In" topics in regards to women creating their own glass ceilings? Most men would just counter.

Tell her to counter, respectfully, with what she feels she deserves (backed up by comps. google them.) The only potential pitfall is them saying no. If anything, they might respect her more...especially in real estate acquisitions. The entire career path is about negotiations.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

Agree with both of the above that if she approaches it with a soft stance and doesn't make ultimatums, "I was making 'x' at previous firm and the market seems to be 'y' for my experience, so I'd like to be around 'z' if possible..." there's no way she'll lose the offer and will likely get a bump.

With that said, comp, titles, work-life balance, job responsibilities, etc. are so fluid within RE that determining a quality-of-life-adjusted-market-comp for a specific position at a specific company is almost impossible. Maybe total comp is low, but she could be working 40 hours a week w/ no stress, making her quality-of-life-adjusted-comp market. She should really drill into that metric before approaching the negotiation and focus less on total comp.

 

I echo what CRE said in that they may EXPECT a negotiation. Although I was pretty happy with the offer at my current position, I negotiated anyway because 1) it's real estate--who doesn't negotiate comp?; and 2) I wasn't 100% sold on going to this company. Seeing how they handled comp negotiations put me over the top in wanting to work there because they worked with me in good faith (in fact, they offered me MORE than I asked for because they wanted to make me happy!).

So there's almost no chance they pull the offer because she tries to get more. In fact, her boss may not respect her if she doesn't try. She should come back basically saying, "I currently make x amount with an easier commute. I really want to join your group, but would be content with x amount, especially since my commute is increasing by 40 minutes per day." If they want a happy employee, they will work with her in good faith; if not, they'll stick to their guns, which is pennywise and pound foolish. At the very least it will give her insight into the type of group she's joining.

As far as comps, also agree with the above that finding apples to apples comparisons will be very tough.

 
derpherpderp4760:

Thanks guys she tried and she got a good raise and other offers as well.

Really? I thought businesses were just sexist. Maybe women need negotiate comp when the opportunity is presented?

Congrats, btw.

 

If you are going to a program, you never negotiate salary. If you have experience and mint money like it's the 80's, the most powerful method is to point to the stack of money you print every year and demand a sizable cut (start at 50%, work your way down to a reasonable 20%) of it.

Pennies from JcPenny
 

So, there is actually an excellent thread on this from an actual hiring manager, but I wasn't able to find it. I'll do my best to recite what I remember from the thread. Switch the focus of the conversation from what you are going to cost them to what you are going to earn for them. Find the numbers on what your position typically earns a company, and then show why you're going to earn them even more. (Perhaps, your network can allow you to do this, I am not sure whether you will be cost-saving or revenue producing because I don't know much about an MS in analytics) After you've shown them what you will earn them, then show them why that amount justifies the salary that you want.

This wasn't actually in the thread I am thinking of, but I have read other articles about ways to get the best deal as well. If you can't get them to budge on salary, talk about vacation days, benefits, working remotely, free flights (some companies have this) things that that will make you more happy with your job. Emphasize how this will actually lead to a better product than they would otherwise get.

Disclaimer though: I am going through the job search process, and I probably won't be doing any of this, but my situation is rather unique, and it leaves me with very little leverage.

 

What experience? Your salary would be the same as any fresh undergrad at this point.

Once you finish the MS, you're probably still looking at post undergrad salary (for consulting firms at least). MAYBE you get bumped up to 2nd year analyst/associate pay. If it's a role at a company that is made specifically for MS Analytics folks, your schools average/career center is probably your best guide. But you aren't likely to get compensated extra by the big consulting firms.

I think the numbers you put out are in range. And don't stress about negotiations; at this point in your career, its pretty standardized and you don't really have much wiggle room. Its when you move to another role that the fine art of negotiation is going to matter.

 

It will be different in a few years, but not necessarily right now.

As a new hire, you want to be at corporate headquarters. That might be NYC. At a lot of prop shops, that will probably be Chicago. At a lot of hedge funds, that will be Connecticut.

Working in NYC for a Chicago firm if you could make the same in Chicago is crazy. Go talk to them and/or find another offer.

 
IlliniProgrammer:
It will be different in a few years, but not necessarily right now.

As a new hire, you want to be at corporate headquarters. That might be NYC. At a lot of prop shops, that will probably be Chicago. At a lot of hedge funds, that will be Connecticut.

Working in NYC for a Chicago firm if you could make the same in Chicago is crazy. Go talk to them and/or find another offer.

Why do you think it will be different in a few years?

 

Do not discuss your salary if you're getting hired for an entry level position. Your efforts will be more harmful than helpful.

To your question: Very few investment banks take cost of living into consideration when calculating salary for an entry level analyst. Even if they did, you'll always lose out in high COL cities. NYC you get the double whammy of higher taxes and higher COL with absolutely no increase in pay. Almost makes you wonder why people are so desperate to live in NYC...

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 

The application form is just a formality. If salary is negotiable, you'll negotiate it during the process. If not, you'll take it or leave it. (Many larger firms have fixed pay scales based on experience - no room for negotiation).

 
zambro19:
So just had a question. I am filling up an application for a buyside job (like prestigious big fund think brandes, capital group,Dodge and Cox, loomis sayles) and the ask for salary requested.

first I know people starting at this position makes around 80k + bonus (say 20-30K) but i have buyside experience so should i request more or is that weird?

Also It only says salary requested and doesnt mention bonus or anything like signing bonus; should I write something like 120k-130k all inn comp or separate the 2?

Also should I just ask like 10 or 20k higher knowing they ll probably try to rbing down anything I request?

Thanks for help

Is it too douchey to suggest that you read this, which was partially inspired by this question? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/how-to-negotiate-for-more-money-dur…

I think it should help you figure out why you should leave it blank or fill in a number that is borderline ridiculously high.

 

Hahahaha, I feel like I got the offer from the same firm when I job searching. Is this the firm that specializes in senior living sector, education and healthcare as their main Ibanking industries? If so, it is a far sub standard pay rate in comparison to the rest of the industry but the culture is the real driving factor on deciding to work for this firm.

 

Make yourself harder to replace. If it's cheaper for them to replace you than to give you a raise, there's no pressure for them to do so. The "cost" of replacing someone encompasses many things, including expected compensation of the replacement and training/ramp-up costs and time.

How to do this varies wildly across professions and level. People in positions where individual performance has a direct effect on the company's bottom line will always have it easier - a superstar salesperson has a much easier time justifying a raise than a superstar database admin will. The DBA will have to work for years, building up knowledge of his company's systems and his own credibility before he can demand an increase in salary above and beyond the standard "track" of compenesation increase. Someone high up at a company will always have an easier time than someone just out of college.

In general, try to become familiar with and add value to things that are unique to your company. Be proactive about getting involved with/starting new projects that you really believe in. If you contribute meaningfully to such a project and it ends up being a big winner, you'll be in a great spot.

Regardless of how it's attained, low replaceability trumps negotiation skills, though good negotiation skills be useful to those who are in the right position.

Read Here More:- How To Negotiate For Your Salary Hike?

http://careerfunda.info/
 

How 'inexpensive' are we talking about? Is this New Orleans/Detroit?

Regardless, 60k is bunk. I (and everyone else with 2 years of experience) make more than that. But I work in a major city, so maybe 60k isn't too bad where you live? When was the last time you got a raise? Was it over a year ago? If so, you're not out of line asking for more cash, especially if you feel confident that you actually add value to the organization.

 

always ask for more than what you want. they (of course) aren't going to fire you just for asking. the fact that you work in a small city might be an excuse but it works both ways- restaffing high-level talent in a small city is costly and takes time.

 

Thanks for the advice guys. My plan is to ask him an open ended question about how he views my role and how I've been doing. After hearing what he has to say, and assuming it's good, I'm going to tell him how I provide value, and I'm being paid much less than the going rate for someone in my role. I deserve $xxx.

Is this a good way to go about it?

When I do this, is it a good idea to say "I've been doing research and this is the going rate". If I do that, he could ask for the websites where I found that info. HR could come back and say that's not an accurate salary. We use source xxxx. Sources I've found are indeed, glassdoor, salary.com.

Any suggestions?

 

I would just wait for it to come up, and then if it doesn't then bring it up in the very end. If anything, the terms will be given in the contract you will have to sign if you ultimatelly choose to accept the job

The Macro View http://themacroview.wordpress.com
 

They need to be (and they owe it to you) to be VERY specific about this or the "trial period" will no doubt stretch into your entire time at the boutique. "Internships" are not open ended. How long will the trial period last? I would approach this in the same way that it is done at most banks. There is an internship of finite length and then you are either hired or not hired. Just as it is inappropriate to ask salary questions about full time during an internship, it's probably inappropriate now. That said, an open ended trial period is not something you should be willing to do. They need to give you a date that they will make a decision.

Also, how many people work for them? What is their niche? Have these guys actually done any deals? Good possibility is that they haven't.

 

Yeah, it seems like the boutique is quite disorganized.. its probably not an on-going SA program like the BBs.. Definitely ask them if they have definite date (especailly since its unpaid).

Signs of Recession: Banker: “Where’s me Bonus?” Yuppie: “Whadya mean I have to actually work?” Fox Rock Mum: “Lidl’s the place to be seen in now!” Cowen: “It’s not my fault that me and my party are complete f**k-ups - it’s the recession silly!”
 

I think you need to talk to some friends doing similar stuff at different firms and suggest a range. Ask them if you should go higher, lower, etc.

Then say to the recruiter that you think someone with your background could probably make $Y-$Z total comp. If you meet their expectations and the firm has a good year, do you think your total pay would be higher, lower, or in that range?

 

Illini, the tricky part here is that there are not many people I know personally who do this specialized line of consulting. Most of what I have gleaned is over web surveys, but it is totally scattershot and inconsistent.

I know roughly that a level jump in my firm is about 10%. I would be getting this soon and I am pricing it in.

From web sources, a premium for a clearance is anythere between a 15% to a 25% jump.

Also, I feel that there needs to be a premium for leaving my firm. Say 10%. Taking the low end of the clearance premium, we're taking about a 40% jump in salary which is not a small deal for me.

In the negotiations: either I or the recruiter has to buckle first and put out a number.

The scenarios as I see them are:

  1. He puts out a number, I up it by 10% and we meet in the middle
  2. I put out a number, he lowballs me and we meet in the middle
  3. I put out a number, he gives me a figure above my ask

The firm has a max, and I want to get as close to that max as possible. In case 1, if I go over at least I can hit the max or come close to it. In case 2, I always get farther from the max. In case 3, the number he gives is probably his target number (i.e., max minus some discount), but this would likely have been the number he would have given in case 1 had I forced him to make the first move.

So the bottom line is that I just cannot budge -- I gotta make him make the first move -- being polite but firm.

 
ivoteforthatguy:
2. I put out a number, he lowballs me and we meet in the middle

I would reassess your position if this happens. If your skill set is as sought after as you say (I'm not trying to be a dick or question your integrity here, just saying) don't underestimate the value of saying something like, "I just cannot justify leaving my current position for a number like that due to XXX" or something along those lines. Basically making it clear that you know he's low balling you and you aren't going to get jerked around but do it in a way that doesn't close the door on continuing negotiations.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

Happypants, no offense taken -- I welcome all candid opinions.

And I am definitely not trying to brag or anything -- by stupid luck, I studied something in grad school that the govt client is REALLY interested in right now, and in order to do this work for them you need special certs on top of that, etc. To be honest I hit a small gold mine because though my salary is not spectacular, it is not bad, and really quite good considering my job is not that hard.

I agree with your strategy. I should say the FIRST time around, I lucked out and didn't get lowballed -- they went 20% over what I asked. BUT, I made a mistake nonetheless because I didn't ask for a 5% bump which I found out they could have given me. Gotta ask.

I have had friends who were lowballed and these were the ones that were adamant about not putting out the number first. I just wonder how long we can continue this staring contest before someone buckles. I'm trying to anticipate all scenarios; the last time around, the recruiter basically said, "we gotta know what your range is to make sure that we are in the position to provide it." Check mate? In retrospect: should have said: "I trust that what you offer will be reasonable -- and I'd like to hear the range you have to offer."

 

Depending on how attached you are to making this move, I would just use your previous calculations and throw out that number. If he gives you the chance, explain exactly as you did here (the 10% level bump etc) how you arrived at that number. He will probably either balk at the number, try to reason with your specific rationale, or some combination. As you said, you want some sort of premium for switching firms so, if he can't give you something at least close to your current number, maybe its worth staying put for a bit and, if this other firm really wants/needs you, they'll come back in a couple months. No telling though. These situations can definitely get weird at times.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford
 

Thanks Pants, your strategy is more or less what I have in mind -- I just wanted to make sure it didn't sound too grabby, etc. I've learned the hard way that salary negotiations are no time to play the gentleman though and I want to do it right the second time around.

 

There is generally a little wiggle room like mass says if you're coming out of undergrad, but mass_marines is in the ballpark -- 10k-20k is probably as much as you're going to get in a salary bump, and doubling your signing bonus isn't unreasonable (which is probably another 10k-20k unless you've got a grad degree). Salaries are pretty fixed at prop firms (since you're paid it regardless of what you're bringing in), but there's a lot more wiggle room when it comes to bonuses.

It's unlikely your first-year bonus is truely "capped" -- it's likely in a narrowly-defined range but still discretionary in case you're a fluke. It's highly unlikely that you are going to be producing anything meaningful within your first year, so the firm is compensating you based on your production relative to your peers.

The question came up when I was presented with my offer, almost worried that it wouldn't meet my approval. I told them I had other similar offers (which I did) and that I was going to take a few days to consider. Called back later in the week and asked them to throw in a sweetener to seal the deal, and they obliged.

 

All I have to say is, be very careful. There are quite literally thousands of kids who will take your spot right now and the BB knows it. I

I actually had an offer rescinded due to negotiating a few months ago.

 

You have some room but I wouldn’t negotiate too hard. Buddy of mine did an MBA 1 year out of undergrad (non-finance) and did “PWM”/client servicing during that year. They didn’t want to give him an associate role (relatively inexperienced vs. most MBAs) but he interviewed well and they liked the guy.

He ended up getting the FT offer at the 2nd year analyst level with firm’s word that they would promote him early (skip 3rd year analyst) if he performed well.

Ended up working out great for him. He wasn’t ready for associate role like most MBAs but was more qualified than most if not all 1 years.

Agree with the comment above. Be careful. Granted this was a highly regarded mid market/boutique but no Goldman so there was probably more wiggle room for them. Depending on the firm, I would definitely broach the topic (they’ll appreciate the aggressiveness) but you don’t have a lot of leverage.

 

true that - however, the tech company position is in the field of data analytics. would that put me in a good position for future consulting positions should i decide to return? (i.e. developing a specialized skill right out of school and early on in my career will allow me to more easily set myself apart in the future)

 

Just be sure when you're coming in asking for more that you have reasons (like how expensive london is, the job responsibilities, family expense, whatever applies in your case) I don't see them budging much unless you have a good list of reasons why you need and should receive more money annually. "Hey guys, could ya possibly bump my salary $15,000 a year, Thanks" isn't very convincing. Then again, I don't know the guys you will be dealing with haha. Take the initial offer and run a mock monthly expense budget and see how comfortably it works for you. That's what I did before accepting my offer I received over this summer.

But I'm sure it will be very reasonable since it is in London so if the offer looks good, there's no reason to risk losing it trying to get an extra 3-5K a year

 

A friend of mine just got an offer for 100k plus 20% bonus at a boutique firm in Chicago. He has a 2nd tier MBA with 8 years of auto industry experience. Hopefully this helps.

 

Why don't you interview at the other place first? You have much more leverage in negotiations if you actually had an offer in hand. It could be awkward if you ask for a raise without one

 

The advice I gave wasn't at all applicable to MF PE.

You're dispensable. You know that scene in one of the Austin Power's that goes:

Dr. Evil: Hang on Mini-Me! If anything should happen to you I don't know what I would do. [pauses] Dr. Evil: Actually, I'd probably move on, get another replica but there would be a 10 minute period there where I would just be inconsolable.
Well that's you. Except without the 10 minute period where they'd be inconsolable. This should be blatantly obvious to you by the fact that the PE Associate is the Bic pen of the buyside. They're cheap and disposable. So if your intent is to somehow prove to your boss how integral you are to their ability to generate returns, you're sorely mistaken; you're not.

The cold hard facts I was referring to are market comp figures. And again, PE firms are all too aware of where they fall in Associate compensation. While the YoY comp swing in banking is quite a bit and so no one knows what others are paying until its too late, in PE its all pretty standardized and stable. Add to that the fact that 2 or 3 head hunters run the process for all of the MF, so the recruiters know what comp is at each of the MFs and so as a result so do the powers that be at a MF (if they care enough to ask). If they don't care enough to ask, its because they don't care what market is, they're going to pay what they're going to pay and you're going to take it or GTFO.

In sum, there is no negotiating your comp at a MF as a junior guy. Be happy your ID badge works every morning.

 

not all firms have done it or made it public, much of it is internal info so asking for 20% above market rate may seem extreme. Im also referring to when you get asked in an interview not when you had an offer, then I would definitely use it

 

Don't expect your salary to double with 3 months experience at the firm. You are still replaceable. But a modest raise might be in order. I would ask for long-term incentives similar to the incumbent. If you show you can do a more demanding job, you deserve to eventually be compensated for it, but you're unlikely to be immediately paid above your level of experience and the role you were initially hired for. I would try to negotiate a higher target bonus based on some goals you could agree on, or some sort of vesting schedule or explicit salary growth rate that would reflect a higher compensation rate of increase over time.

 

What would I do? Confirm that I was okay with it, proceed to the final round interview, and then probably try to negotiate if I was extended an offer. In the best case there is wiggle room, worst case there is not and you turn them down.

Not saying that's 100% the best thing to do and others might have a different opinion, but it's the strict answer to your questions of what I would do.

 

I highly recommend reading the book Influence.

From a psychological perspective, humans tend to follow the old adage of "you owe me". If a potential employer offers you $X, and you request $X+2, and then settle on $X+1, the employer tends to view you being willing to accept $X+1 instead of $X+2 as a concession and thereby your employer owes you now. This could result in your employer being the one to make a concession the next time that you request a raise or something else. Furthermore, human beings tend to view inconsistency as a weakness, even if this inconsistency is completely logical (e.g. refusing to give a homeless man $100 a week after you gave him $10). Because of this, it would be in your best interest to negotiate a starting salary because it sets a precedent not only of negotiation being acceptable, but also of your employer upping his/her original starting position.

Granted, none of that matters if you enter a field like IB where salaries are preset and pretty much the same across firms (at the junior level).

 

I've worked in investment banking, corp fin and corp dev. What I have found in non-IB, is that if you ask for more money there is always the chance that they walk away or don't like your attitude, get a little butt hurt, etc. If that happens, IMO that's good to know straight out of the gate because the company/hiring managers are showing their unwillingness to pay for quality, which would make me not want to work for people like that to begin with.

Alternatively, if you ask for more money and they pay it, I am under the impression the hiring manager now views you as a more "valuable" member of the team. For example, if the company had 1 corp dev analyst already and then hired you from IB to be another corp dev analyst and you got more money than offered, you are instantly seen as the more "valuable/higher potential" person than the other guy. This can very of course, but that's my perception.

Asking for more money also shows the hiring manager that you have leverage in your job search (betting on yourself is an indicator of your actual quality) and that you have the balls to negotiate. Both of these traits are very important, since the hiring manager is most likely looking for you to grow into a leadership position.

I think to some degree, this is 1 reason of many why women do not make quite as much money as men in similar roles, but that is a completely different topic.

 

I am always very upfront in these situations and just ask. At the end of the day, unless the culture/progression at your firm is unappealing or you want to change the style of investing you do the only reason to leave is for compensation. If someone reaches out to you because you have an applicable skill-set I see no reason why it would be weird to ask about pay.

I have usually said, i would only consider moving for a package in the range of X and see how they respond.

 

Recruiters typically know less than you might expect. Many of them are glorified resume pushers.

That being said, they should at least have an idea of what the base salary is (this is what they get a share of) - though i'm guessing this wont be the difference maker to you.

If you press them really hard and they don't fold then there's a good chance they're just not all that sure. I do commend you for being persistent though - you need to have a firm hand with recruiters to avoid being used in their slimy skims (e.g. as a data source/ fact-gathering mission, as a 'presentation' to a firm thats a bad fit just to show they're bringing in good candidates, etc). Christ I could go on for days about how slimy recruiters are...

 
Best Response

These all stem from the (significant) misalignments between recruiters and their clients (both the candidate and the firm looking for talent. Recruiters just want to place people in spots so they get paid. They are not as concerned as they should be with long-term fit (if you leave they get to place you again), which is what matters most to clients. In order of most meh to most shady:

  • Generally exaggerate quality/ fit of a job to get you to send in resume/ interview and hope something sticks
  • Dramatically exaggerate their industry/firm knowledge - they love to think they're 'insiders' - and ability to impact your serach process (they're mostly just resume pushers)
  • Try to convince you to interview with firms that are obviously not a fit to show the firm that they are sourcing good candidates
  • Talk down opportunities you have to convince you to join their client (w/o regard for relative quality of opportunities)
  • Falsify opportunities (X fund is looking for a PM!) to get candidates to engage and share their resumes/ data
  • Share your data/ stats with firms you haven't told them you're interested in engaging with
  • Lie on your behalf and/or ask you to lie during an interview to improve your chances (this is not good for anyone in the long term)
  • Learn about interview process/ questions and share exact answers with candidates (this is different from coaching, and is a blatant form of cheating that would cause me to fire a recruiter if I was the client firm)
 

to those that replied above and noted that it's fine to ask upfront (which i have historically done as well), i'm normally told what the compensation would/could range from, but then the roles are switched in then the recruiter would ask me something along the lines of 'what are you getting comped at now' or 'how is that in relation to what you're getting now', etc.

interested to see whether you guys give up data points or not since if you decline, it looks to be bad form and the recruiter may not push you for the opportunity you'd actually be interested in (if that is the case)

 

If you don't want to disclose I would give a range. In general, recruiters will push you for any opportunity they can. Remember that they just want something to hit so they can get paid. They are much more likely to push you for something you are over/under qualified for than to show any restraint. In general I would try to keep the information advantage on your side (e.g. give as little as possible, get as much as possible) and make it clear that you are not desperate.

 

I would say that about 94% of Americans get excited about $200k. Maybe if you spent more time working hard and less time being a whiny bitch you would break the mark.

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will."
 

Not sure which firm you're at. Note I'm a second-degree source, but I've heard comp is ~$170-200k first and second years, up to ~$300k third year and then steady increases until ~$1m a few years down the line (one guy I know is making this much at 28).

Then again if you lose money for even a few weeks in a row, you'll probably get axed. One big mistake - you're gone. Maybe people are not paid as much as you expected because most people don't last long enough.

 

I always get the feeling that threads about needing 300k or more are made by kids who haven't worked a day in their lives, or the self-reported millions-in-mental-masturbation that are all but guaranteed in finance are just perpetuated by those same people.

 
ArcherVice:

I always get the feeling that threads about needing 300k or more are made by kids who haven't worked a day in their lives, or the self-reported millions-in-mental-masturbation that are all but guaranteed in finance are just perpetuated by those same people.

300k USD gross doesnt actually go as far as you think if you are living in a city like London if you a) want a decent place to live without housemates b) want to send your kids to good schools c) want to save for retirement d) want to take holidays

I used to think people who didnt feel rich on that kind of money are delusional, but it is all relative in the end.

 

Yeah it's grossly overstated, especially given today's market. I do know a few guys who semi-retired because they killed it trading vol arb at chicago prop shops during 08-09. A few other quants at top shops who are clearing $500K+ but that's the anomaly, not the norm. Overall the business has been in steady decline.

 

I would just ask them what you should expect. When I got my offer they told me what I should expect. Not as explicitly as a percent of base but more / less that it would commensurate with what an associates at a megafund PE firm would make.

I was fortunate in that I actually had one of those offers and since most PE associates are more / less told what first year comp would be, I put that number out there to my current firm and they confirmed that we were both in the same range. I think most shops will be transparent with you, barring anything extraordinary happening (massive losses, etc.).

 

I havent done any drug testing. I assume they have already done a background check in this time and I am in a generalist program. This is a boutique bank so I dont know if the procedures are as formalized as at a BB.

The offer made it sound like I would get the check once I returned the signed letter.

But i guess most importantly, would it be rude or innapropriate to ask when the check is coming?

 

I would be patient unless it is financially important to recieve it now for housing or other arrangements. If you have not filled out a background check form, they have not done a background check. If you have a friend that works there, you can ask them but I would discourage even more strongly from asking because it is a boutique. At least with a BB, HR is in a way isolated from the bankers. This simply will not be the case at your boutique bank.

 

Summer compensation is non-negotiable in almost all circumstances. Most reputable firms will give a 1st year analyst's salary pro-rated to its interns.

~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 
CompBanker:
Summer compensation is non-negotiable in almost all circumstances. Most reputable firms will give a 1st year analyst's salary pro-rated to its interns.

~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker

Negotiating is not an option.

 

if you must, make it a lifestyle question not a comp question, as in "we just had a baby and are a bit worried about paying for xyz, is the cost of living in NJ/CT low enough that you thinks its sustainable? but why not just ask your friend, in strategy/finance she probably knows what the broad target numbers are for various seniority and if there is any incentive comp

i think the risk with corporate is not comp, its the speed of promotion. all the directors make the same amount of money (adjusted by function), but getting there could take 6 months or 6 years.

 

Thanks guys. I think I will hold off the comp question, at least for the first few contacts and will see what I can dig up from other angles. I found off hand their post-MBA associates run around 100-125k base, with bonus averaging 20%, which seems pretty standard

Good point on the speed of promotion

 

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