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4/9/13

So, Veritas Prep just blabbed about the 570 GMAT-er who got into HBS being a client of theirs. They also oh-so-helpfully posted a bunch of information about this client being an elite-level athlete with >20,000 Twitter followers, and now everyone knows that the gentleman in question is none other than former Bronco/Falcon/Raven Domonique Foxworth.

Dude's GMAT is obviously far from stellar, and his work experience has mostly involved smashing into other people. That said, his experience also included a lot of teamwork, leadership, and hard work, plus his college academic record was apparently pretty solid. Decent enough to prove that he's no bumbling fool.

Thoughts?

Comments (212)

4/8/13

Great to see an athlete try something useful for a change.

Please NFL vets, no more used car dealerships. Ok? Ok.

Either way, good job Dominique. Kudos.

"Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

Accepted.com
4/8/13

570 AFTER going through prep class is just wow..

4/8/13

bearcats:
570 AFTER going through prep class is just wow..

Nothing to be proud of.

"Those who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

4/8/13

Black October just got a whole lot more interesting. He's gonna be slayinnnn

4/8/13

Tommy Too-toned:
Black October just got a whole lot more interesting. He's gonna be slayinnnn
4/8/13

He's a famous jock; he probably hasn't done real homework since he was in junior high. Given his unique profile and Harvard's history of not caring about the GMAT, it's understandable they'd take a flyer on him.

4/8/13

He's also President of the NFLPA which distinguishes him from most candidates.

4/8/13

LOL.

4/8/13

what a joke. lost a lot of respect for HBS. why even require work experience if playing in the NFL qualifies as work experience?

4/8/13

prn927:
what a joke. lost a lot of respect for HBS. why even require work experience if playing in the NFL qualifies as work experience?

This is a very dumb statement

4/8/13

prn927:
what a joke. lost a lot of respect for HBS. why even require work experience if playing in the NFL qualifies as work experience?

I'm sure they give a fck about your lost respect. You've gotta be joking too. Being a professional athlete makes him a great candidate for many of the same reasons that military vets are great candidates. People get side-tracked by many of the clowns and sideshows in professional sports but generally those guys are incredibly hard working, disciplined and extremely dedicated individuals who have put everything into their sport for most likely their entire life. Not every athlete had all of his homework done for him and the fact that this guy ran the NFLPA means he's not dumb ( in addition to being far better experience than any bullshit you do for your few years out of undergrad).

4/8/13

juniormistmaker:
the fact that this guy ran the NFLPA means he's not dumb

Not to mention that in a greater sense, he played football for a couple years, made bank, and got out before his knees or his mind were ruined beyond repair.

HBS gets to say they take people with lower GMAT's (a benefit in their case because it "shows" they care more about other factors), have a former NFL player and labor exec as a student, and if he goes to the NFL office they can claim that too. Foxworth gets a Harvard degree. It's a win-win.

4/8/13

4/8/13

blastoise:

SB for you sir

4/8/13

Eh, not that surprised he got in. The women on b-school adcoms get pretty excited by NFL players and athletes in general. Everybody knows that mba admissions is total fluff, so this shouldn't come as a surprise.

4/8/13

mbavsmfin:
Eh, not that surprised he got in. The women on b-school adcoms get pretty excited by NFL players and athletes in general...

i'm sorry you're having trouble finding a girlfriend bro. let's not blame "NFL players and athletes in general" for our problems, ok?

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

4/8/13

sayandarula:
mbavsmfin:
Eh, not that surprised he got in. The women on b-school adcoms get pretty excited by NFL players and athletes in general...

i'm sorry you're having trouble finding a girlfriend bro. let's not blame "NFL players and athletes in general" for our problems, ok?

Hey bro. My girlfriend and I are doing fine, and I'm most likely heading to a top b-school this fall. I give props to domonique for his accomplishments. My main point was that adcom loves seeing unique backgrounds and extracurriculars.

4/8/13

I think the most important question regarding his application is whether the 570 was before or after people started repeatedly hitting his head on the ground

Best Response
4/8/13

Are you guys seriously arguing that an NFL cornerback and former head of the NFL Players Union should be less impressive to an AdCom than Analyst #78 in Goldman Sachs Industrials, Waste Management and Utilities silo who interned at the Boys and Girls Club once a month?

This site is ridiculous.

4/8/13

triplectz:
Are you guys seriously arguing that an NFL cornerback and former head of the NFL Players Union should be less impressive to an AdCom than Analyst #78 in Goldman Sachs Industrials, Waste Management and Utilities silo who interned at the Boys and Girls Club once a month?

This site is ridiculous.

Is he gay? http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/28/do...

4/8/13

Lol really screwed this one up

4/8/13

blastoise:

Is he gay?

Maybe that's what his essay was about? Would have been one hell of an essay. Adcoms love it when it's just your basic "I'm gay and had to hide it for 18 years" essay for college; adding "I played in the NFL" to the mix takes it over the top.

Falcon:

I wouldn't be surprise if Myron Rolle (FSU Rhodes Scholar) takes a stab at business school in the near future.

To be fair, Rolle would probably hit higher than a 570 after prep classes.

4/8/13

triplectz:
Are you guys seriously arguing that an NFL cornerback and former head of the NFL Players Union should be less impressive to an AdCom than Analyst #78 in Goldman Sachs Industrials, Waste Management and Utilities silo who interned at the Boys and Girls Club once a month?

This site is ridiculous.

Head of the NFL players union is particularly impressive to me. Being respected enough by your peers to have them entrust you with that responsibility says a lot about his leadership ability. People who think scoring above a 700 on the GMAT is more impressive than that are delusional.

This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..

4/8/13

triplectz:
Are you guys seriously arguing that an NFL cornerback and former head of the NFL Players Union should be less impressive to an AdCom than Analyst #78 in Goldman Sachs Industrials, Waste Management and Utilities silo who interned at the Boys and Girls Club once a month?

This site is ridiculous.


I know right, he's clearly far more talented than any ibanker
4/8/13

Wall St Oasis is where nerds with minimal social skills and emotional intelligence get a voice... I usually just lurk and chuckle at the ridiculous things people say on here.... They're actually questioning the former union rep of the NFL PA who has actually been one of the best in the world at SOMETHING... and negotiated with billionaires... based on his GMAT score???.... ignorant...

4/8/13

Personally, I agree with HBS' decision to take him on as a student. Sure, his GMAT's on the low end. If I were a betting man, however, I would still wager that he's going to do better than the average HBS graduate in terms of post-graduation career trajectory. He must have a shitload of contacts in the sports industry, and he's already proven that other people like him enough to install him as the NFLPA's President.

All in all... I think he's actually a relatively safe candidate for HBS to take in.

4/8/13

Angus Macgyver:
Personally, I agree with HBS' decision to take him on as a student. Sure, his GMAT's on the low end. If I were a betting man, however, I would still wager that he's going to do better than the average HBS graduate in terms of post-graduation career trajectory. He must have a shitload of contacts in the sports industry, and he's already proven that other people like him enough to install him as the NFLPA's President.

All in all... I think he's actually a relatively safe candidate for HBS to take in.

I agree more or less with this. We're talking about MBA, not a stem phd program. He will add a lot of value to the HBS brand since he's already made great money and has tons of contacts in the sports industry.

4/8/13

Angus Macgyver:
If I were a betting man, however, I would still wager that he's going to do better than the average HBS graduate in terms of post-graduation career trajectory.
Honestly, he could join PWM as a broker and absolutely rake it in just by getting players and former players as clients.
4/8/13

SirTradesaLot:
Angus Macgyver:
If I were a betting man, however, I would still wager that he's going to do better than the average HBS graduate in terms of post-graduation career trajectory.
Honestly, he could join PWM as a broker and absolutely rake it in just by getting players and former players as clients.

^^ This

Probably the least talked about and most lucrative exit op for retired pro athletes.

4/10/13

Why wouldn't you admit him, given his role with the player's union. And given high-level athletes start ignoring school by 10th grade at the latest, 570 isn't half bad. As far as impact to his study group, he'll more than make up the help he needs in finance when they have a negotiations class. Most of business school is reading anyway.

4/8/13

Foxworth4MVP?

I hate victims who respect their executioners

4/8/13

BlackHat:
Foxworth4MVP?

I chortled. This deserves a silver banana, but I'm a cheapskate.

"There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing"

4/10/13

BlackHat:
Foxworth4MVP?

I think Brady's head just exploded.

4/8/13

This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

4/8/13

subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

racist/jealous

Maternity is a matter of fact, paternity is a matter of opinion.

4/8/13

YouareNOTtheFather:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

racist/jealous

This assertion is spurious. In all actuality anyone who would bring race into the picture is the true bigot. I simply stated that the ridiculous obsession that Americans have with celebrities has transpired in admission practices. I'm just calling it like I see it. There is no doubt that this man will hold back the rest of the class. Any arguments of him adding value based on his experience misses the fact that the costs that his mental dullness will surely outweigh the minimal costs for his experiences. I find it appalling that I have been demonized in this post when I should be revered for stating the truth. To all you goldwater fans out there.... In your heart you know I'm right! All jokes aside to argue that this is a positive for HBS is ridiculous and any argument contrary to this has no merit.

4/8/13

subrosa:
YouareNOTtheFather:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

racist/jealous

This assertion is spurious. In all actuality anyone who would bring race into the picture is the true bigot. I simply stated that the ridiculous obsession that Americans have with celebrities has transpired in admission practices. I'm just calling it like I see it. There is no doubt that this man will hold back the rest of the class. Any arguments of him adding value based on his experience misses the fact that the costs that his mental dullness will surely outweigh the minimal costs for his experiences. I find it appalling that I have been demonized in this post when I should be revered for stating the truth. To all you goldwater fans out there.... In your heart you know I'm right! All jokes aside to argue that this is a positive for HBS is ridiculous and any argument contrary to this has no merit.

Hold back the class? Are you serious? How rigorous do you think these programs are? They're not splitting atoms up there in Allston.

This is a retardedly obvious positive for HBS. Hell, he's probably the single most impressive person in the entire class (55th percentile GMAT and all). Is he the most intelligent? Nope. But who gives a shit?

4/8/13

holla_back:
subrosa:
YouareNOTtheFather:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

racist/jealous

This assertion is spurious. In all actuality anyone who would bring race into the picture is the true bigot. I simply stated that the ridiculous obsession that Americans have with celebrities has transpired in admission practices. I'm just calling it like I see it. There is no doubt that this man will hold back the rest of the class. Any arguments of him adding value based on his experience misses the fact that the costs that his mental dullness will surely outweigh the minimal costs for his experiences. I find it appalling that I have been demonized in this post when I should be revered for stating the truth. To all you goldwater fans out there.... In your heart you know I'm right! All jokes aside to argue that this is a positive for HBS is ridiculous and any argument contrary to this has no merit.

Hold back the class? Are you serious? How rigorous do you think these programs are? They're not splitting atoms up there in Allston.

This is a retardedly obvious positive for HBS. Hell, he's probably the single most impressive person in the entire class (55th percentile GMAT and all). Is he the most intelligent? Nope. But who gives a shit?

It's fair to say that it is retarded, but not a retardedly [sic] obvious positive. I doubt this man is as impressive as the majority of people in his class. Either through merit or experiences, most students will be far more interesting from a perspective on humanity. Sure they may not ever lay foot on the gridiron, but who really cares about that anyway. I would argue that the vast majority of american's spend more time idolizing the accomplishments of others than focusing on their own potential. Even on WSO, where the population is mostly overachievers, the obsession of athletics is pervasive.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a football game on Sunday afternoon, but for most people that is just not how it works. It can easily turn into a fantasy football obsession, watching 4 games a week at the local pub, perhaps even showing up to live games with painting chests and foam fingers. And it keeps going on and on. I love playing sports and I even like watching them, but I could care less about who the accomplishments the guys have on the field. I'm not knocking this guy at all, as I wish I could get into HBS with a 570 although the only way that would happen would be if the adcom had dyslexia. I can even accept the decision made by HBS as somewhat understandable, but to come to this guy's defense on what a great addition he will be is absurd. I can think of sooooo many people that have far more diverse and unique experiences who wouldn't even have a chance with a sub 700 score. The whole point I'm trying to make is the ridiculousness that goes into making these decisions.

4/8/13

subrosa:
holla_back:
subrosa:
YouareNOTtheFather:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

racist/jealous

This assertion is spurious. In all actuality anyone who would bring race into the picture is the true bigot. I simply stated that the ridiculous obsession that Americans have with celebrities has transpired in admission practices. I'm just calling it like I see it. There is no doubt that this man will hold back the rest of the class. Any arguments of him adding value based on his experience misses the fact that the costs that his mental dullness will surely outweigh the minimal costs for his experiences. I find it appalling that I have been demonized in this post when I should be revered for stating the truth. To all you goldwater fans out there.... In your heart you know I'm right! All jokes aside to argue that this is a positive for HBS is ridiculous and any argument contrary to this has no merit.

Hold back the class? Are you serious? How rigorous do you think these programs are? They're not splitting atoms up there in Allston.

This is a retardedly obvious positive for HBS. Hell, he's probably the single most impressive person in the entire class (55th percentile GMAT and all). Is he the most intelligent? Nope. But who gives a shit?

It's fair to say that it is retarded, but not a retardedly [sic] obvious positive. I doubt this man is as impressive as the majority of people in his class. Either through merit or experiences, most students will be far more interesting from a perspective on humanity. Sure they may not ever lay foot on the gridiron, but who really cares about that anyway. I would argue that the vast majority of american's spend more time idolizing the accomplishments of others than focusing on their own potential. Even on WSO, where the population is mostly overachievers, the obsession of athletics is pervasive.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a football game on Sunday afternoon, but for most people that is just not how it works. It can easily turn into a fantasy football obsession, watching 4 games a week at the local pub, perhaps even showing up to live games with painting chests and foam fingers. And it keeps going on and on. I love playing sports and I even like watching them, but I could care less about who the accomplishments the guys have on the field. I'm not knocking this guy at all, as I wish I could get into HBS with a 570 although the only way that would happen would be if the adcom had dyslexia. I can even accept the decision made by HBS as somewhat understandable, but to come to this guy's defense on what a great addition he will be is absurd. I can think of sooooo many people that have far more diverse and unique experiences who wouldn't even have a chance with a sub 700 score. The whole point I'm trying to make is the ridiculousness that goes into making these decisions.

Dude, you sound fucking nuts. Think about what you're saying.

Do you seriously think scoring 700 on the GMAT is more impressive than playing in the NFL and working as president of the NFLPA? Again, he's clearly not the "smartest" guy in the class -- he's very likely the most impressive, though.

subrosa:
I can think of sooooo many people that have far more diverse and unique experiences who wouldn't even have a chance with a sub 700 score.

Seriously?

4/8/13

holla_back:
subrosa:
holla_back:
subrosa:
YouareNOTtheFather:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

racist/jealous

This assertion is spurious. In all actuality anyone who would bring race into the picture is the true bigot. I simply stated that the ridiculous obsession that Americans have with celebrities has transpired in admission practices. I'm just calling it like I see it. There is no doubt that this man will hold back the rest of the class. Any arguments of him adding value based on his experience misses the fact that the costs that his mental dullness will surely outweigh the minimal costs for his experiences. I find it appalling that I have been demonized in this post when I should be revered for stating the truth. To all you goldwater fans out there.... In your heart you know I'm right! All jokes aside to argue that this is a positive for HBS is ridiculous and any argument contrary to this has no merit.

Hold back the class? Are you serious? How rigorous do you think these programs are? They're not splitting atoms up there in Allston.

This is a retardedly obvious positive for HBS. Hell, he's probably the single most impressive person in the entire class (55th percentile GMAT and all). Is he the most intelligent? Nope. But who gives a shit?

It's fair to say that it is retarded, but not a retardedly [sic] obvious positive. I doubt this man is as impressive as the majority of people in his class. Either through merit or experiences, most students will be far more interesting from a perspective on humanity. Sure they may not ever lay foot on the gridiron, but who really cares about that anyway. I would argue that the vast majority of american's spend more time idolizing the accomplishments of others than focusing on their own potential. Even on WSO, where the population is mostly overachievers, the obsession of athletics is pervasive.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a football game on Sunday afternoon, but for most people that is just not how it works. It can easily turn into a fantasy football obsession, watching 4 games a week at the local pub, perhaps even showing up to live games with painting chests and foam fingers. And it keeps going on and on. I love playing sports and I even like watching them, but I could care less about who the accomplishments the guys have on the field. I'm not knocking this guy at all, as I wish I could get into HBS with a 570 although the only way that would happen would be if the adcom had dyslexia. I can even accept the decision made by HBS as somewhat understandable, but to come to this guy's defense on what a great addition he will be is absurd. I can think of sooooo many people that have far more diverse and unique experiences who wouldn't even have a chance with a sub 700 score. The whole point I'm trying to make is the ridiculousness that goes into making these decisions.

Dude, you sound fucking nuts. Think about what you're saying.

Do you seriously think scoring 700 on the GMAT is more impressive than playing in the NFL and working as president of the NFLPA? Again, he's clearly not the "smartest" guy in the class -- he's very likely the most impressive, though.

subrosa:
I can think of sooooo many people that have far more diverse and unique experiences who wouldn't even have a chance with a sub 700 score.

Seriously?

I think you are nuts, because I don't see the significance of playing a contact sport in comparison to a kid starting a construction company or anything else. That is my opinion and an opinion I am proud to have it even if it is outside the norm. Look I like to goof around on here to relieve stress from studying/work, but I'm dead serious about this. President of the NFLPA is obviously on some level impressive, but the mere fact of him being a NFL player to me is not, at least not in terms of consideration for HBS. If he scored a 650 or something then okay, but how far outside the range is a 570 for any top 20!! A 570 either indicates that he is not intelligent or that he was not dedicated enough to make attempts to improve his score.... Obviously it didn't matter in his case, but I personally see it as a major injustice on the decision.

4/9/13

subrosa:
President of the NFLPA is obviously on some level impressive

"On some level impressive?"

Do you even realize what you're saying?

4/9/13

holla_back:
subrosa:
President of the NFLPA is obviously on some level impressive

"On some level impressive?"

Do you even realize what you're saying?

To each his own, but it is not overly impressive to me.

4/9/13

Subrosa,
this is why he's going to HBS and you're not

Twitter: @LeveragedBroOut

4/9/13

subrosa:
President of the NFLPA is obviously on some level impressive, but the mere fact of him being a NFL player to me is not, at least not in terms of consideration for HBS.

It's just unfortunate that you hold this opinion, and that's the nicest way I can put it. Do you know how many people work their asses off just to have a shot at playing in the NFL? And out of those people, how many actually play in the NFL? Football at the pro level is a sport that requires mental acuity and physical prowess far beyond what your average pencil-pusher possesses, and I'm talking about every position in the NFL (ok, maybe not punter and kicker, but those guys are still pretty damn talented). I'm only going to talk about the mental portion of the game since we all know how athletically gifted these guys are.

Yes, football players are SMART. Maybe not in the classroom sense (B-school isn't about that anymore anyway), but they're very sharp. Obviously a QB can't be a moron -- he has to read coverage (man coverage vs. zone and different variations of both) and make a throw before he's leveled by a 300-pound defensive tackle, but even the other players on the field have to keep their wits about them. O-linemen (gap responsibility for all sorts of exotic blitz packages defensive coordinators come up with seemingly almost every week), receivers (finding holes in the zone D and sitting down on the route or recognizing when the safeties are sagging down to play the run and blowing by them for the big play), and running backs (picking up the blitz and becoming an extra receiver to bail your QB out when plays break down) all can't be dumbasses or the game is over before it starts.

Now for the other side of the ball, the side that Foxworth plays on, I could go on and on about this. You think it's easy covering your part of the field (if you're playing zone) or your receiver (if you're playing man) when guys like Peyton Manning are hot-routing receivers all over the damn place and changing everything that can be changed at the line of scrimmage? How easy do you think it is to not be sucked into the box by a play action fake? How about deciding whether to play bump-and-run coverage on your man to throw off the timing of the route or to sag off so you have more time to recover on a long ball?

So in addition to football players not being dumbasses, how can a football player contribute to the classroom? Well, why do business executives read Sun Tzu's The Art of War? Are they raising an army and marching off to North Korea? Anything can be applied to the classroom. Just a couple points from football that I can think of off the top of my head are how much to rely on a solid gameplan vs. just using brute force and identifying your and your opponent's weaknesses and exploiting them (offense vs. defense vs. special teams...that big kick return by Jacoby Jones in the Super Bowl was huge for the Ravens when it seemed like both teams were matched up evenly everywhere else on the field).

So yeah, I would love to have Foxworth in my class. He brings a unique perspective. There's only so many Wall Street monkeys, tech entrpreneurs, non-profit guys, management consultants, and military types that I want to listen to before I get bored. It is a two-year program, after all.

4/9/13

design:
subrosa:
President of the NFLPA is obviously on some level impressive, but the mere fact of him being a NFL player to me is not, at least not in terms of consideration for HBS.

It's just unfortunate that you hold this opinion, and that's the nicest way I can put it. Do you know how many people work their asses off just to have a shot at playing in the NFL? And out of those people, how many actually play in the NFL? Football at the pro level is a sport that requires mental acuity and physical prowess far beyond what your average pencil-pusher possesses, and I'm talking about every position in the NFL (ok, maybe not punter and kicker, but those guys are still pretty damn talented). I'm only going to talk about the mental portion of the game since we all know how athletically gifted these guys are.

Yes, football players are SMART. Maybe not in the classroom sense (B-school isn't about that anymore anyway), but they're very sharp. Obviously a QB can't be a moron -- he has to read coverage (man coverage vs. zone and different variations of both) and make a throw before he's leveled by a 300-pound defensive tackle, but even the other players on the field have to keep their wits about them. O-linemen (gap responsibility for all sorts of exotic blitz packages defensive coordinators come up with seemingly almost every week), receivers (finding holes in the zone D and sitting down on the route or recognizing when the safeties are sagging down to play the run and blowing by them for the big play), and running backs (picking up the blitz and becoming an extra receiver to bail your QB out when plays break down) all can't be dumbasses or the game is over before it starts.

Now for the other side of the ball, the side that Foxworth plays on, I could go on and on about this. You think it's easy covering your part of the field (if you're playing zone) or your receiver (if you're playing man) when guys like Peyton Manning are hot-routing receivers all over the damn place and changing everything that can be changed at the line of scrimmage? How easy do you think it is to not be sucked into the box by a play action fake? How about deciding whether to play bump-and-run coverage on your man to throw off the timing of the route or to sag off so you have more time to recover on a long ball?

So in addition to football players not being dumbasses, how can a football player contribute to the classroom? Well, why do business executives read Sun Tzu's The Art of War? Are they raising an army and marching off to North Korea? Anything can be applied to the classroom. Just a couple points from football that I can think of off the top of my head are how much to rely on a solid gameplan vs. just using brute force and identifying your and your opponent's weaknesses and exploiting them (offense vs. defense vs. special teams...that big kick return by Jacoby Jones in the Super Bowl was huge for the Ravens when it seemed like both teams were matched up evenly everywhere else on the field).

So yeah, I would love to have Foxworth in my class. He brings a unique perspective. There's only so many Wall Street monkeys, tech entrpreneurs, non-profit guys, management consultants, and military types that I want to listen to before I get bored. It is a two-year program, after all.

Please tell me you are joking. Vince Young got a 6 on his Wonderlic! A 6!! A Majority of the players in the NFL, most of whom come from subpar schools, have a GPA of less than 3.0. And they take the easiest courses. So no, football players are not smart for the most part. Some may be (i.e. andrew luck and aaron rodgers), however, this clown is it.

4/10/13

design:
subrosa:
President of the NFLPA is obviously on some level impressive, but the mere fact of him being a NFL player to me is not, at least not in terms of consideration for HBS.

It's just unfortunate that you hold this opinion, and that's the nicest way I can put it. Do you know how many people work their asses off just to have a shot at playing in the NFL? And out of those people, how many actually play in the NFL? Football at the pro level is a sport that requires mental acuity and physical prowess far beyond what your average pencil-pusher possesses, and I'm talking about every position in the NFL (ok, maybe not punter and kicker, but those guys are still pretty damn talented). I'm only going to talk about the mental portion of the game since we all know how athletically gifted these guys are.

Yes, football players are SMART. Maybe not in the classroom sense (B-school isn't about that anymore anyway), but they're very sharp. Obviously a QB can't be a moron -- he has to read coverage (man coverage vs. zone and different variations of both) and make a throw before he's leveled by a 300-pound defensive tackle, but even the other players on the field have to keep their wits about them. O-linemen (gap responsibility for all sorts of exotic blitz packages defensive coordinators come up with seemingly almost every week), receivers (finding holes in the zone D and sitting down on the route or recognizing when the safeties are sagging down to play the run and blowing by them for the big play), and running backs (picking up the blitz and becoming an extra receiver to bail your QB out when plays break down) all can't be dumbasses or the game is over before it starts.

Now for the other side of the ball, the side that Foxworth plays on, I could go on and on about this. You think it's easy covering your part of the field (if you're playing zone) or your receiver (if you're playing man) when guys like Peyton Manning are hot-routing receivers all over the damn place and changing everything that can be changed at the line of scrimmage? How easy do you think it is to not be sucked into the box by a play action fake? How about deciding whether to play bump-and-run coverage on your man to throw off the timing of the route or to sag off so you have more time to recover on a long ball?

So in addition to football players not being dumbasses, how can a football player contribute to the classroom? Well, why do business executives read Sun Tzu's The Art of War? Are they raising an army and marching off to North Korea? Anything can be applied to the classroom. Just a couple points from football that I can think of off the top of my head are how much to rely on a solid gameplan vs. just using brute force and identifying your and your opponent's weaknesses and exploiting them (offense vs. defense vs. special teams...that big kick return by Jacoby Jones in the Super Bowl was huge for the Ravens when it seemed like both teams were matched up evenly everywhere else on the field).

So yeah, I would love to have Foxworth in my class. He brings a unique perspective. There's only so many Wall Street monkeys, tech entrpreneurs, non-profit guys, management consultants, and military types that I want to listen to before I get bored. It is a two-year program, after all.

As a former football player that didn't make the cut for college, loved this post as well. +1

prn927:
Please tell me you are joking. Vince Young got a 6 on his Wonderlic! A 6!! A Majority of the players in the NFL, most of whom come from subpar schools, have a GPA of less than 3.0. And they take the easiest courses. So no, football players are not smart for the most part. Some may be (i.e. andrew luck and aaron rodgers), however, this clown is it.
A couple comments.

Subpar schools: these may be well outside the USNWR top-100, certainly are not the Ivy League, and may not carry much weight in academic circles, but the simple fact is that when you are a premiere athlete coming out of high school, you are only going to seriously consider schools that offer elite athletic programs. If you have identified athletics as your vocation, a perennial powerhouse like LSU, Bama, Ohio State, Penn State, or USC means far more to you than MIT, Berkeley, UChicago, etc.

GPA: realize also that when these guys are in school, their sport is their job. Literally. There's an absurd playbook to memorize, 1-2 hours to spend in the gym daily, 2-4 hours of practice daily, yoga/pilates/massages/sauna/other health or recovery activities to maintain your physical condition ... and somewhere in there, classes need to fit in. Factor all that plus travel time for half the weekends during the season, and it's kind of obvious to see that the real focus for them is not the classroom.

Not to mention the fact that the relative value they receive from each hour spent studying vs. each hour spent honing their craft so they can enter their respective sport's professional league is massively imbalanced.

Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

4/8/13

subrosa:
American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen.

Why? They are both worth well in to the hundreds of millions. They clearly know their market segment and how to exploit it. Is that not the very definition of great american business men? I'm sure you, just as basically 99.9% of posters on this site will be a salary slave your whole life and create nothing. Or is there some other reason that its become laughable...

4/8/13

subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

You jelly brah??

"When you expect things to happen - strangely enough - they do happen."
- JP Morgan

4/8/13

eignenvector:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

You jelly brah??

Jelly? You sound like a 10 year girl. I could care less and applaud him, I'm just pointing out the flaw by HBS.

4/8/13

subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

If I could be considered as laughable a businessman as Jay Z or Diddy, sign me up. They've goth built multi-hundred million dollar enterprises and are worth around $500M a piece. Jay Z didn't even finish high school, if I recall correctly. He had a talent that helped him accumulate capital and then he put it to work. Simple as that.

But, keep telling yourself that the only legitimate businessmen are people who crank on financial models and write Investment Considerations in CIMs if that makes you feel better.

To add - don't discount the absurd work ethic it takes to make the NFL and sustain a career in it. Not to mention the complexity of NFL offenses and defenses. On top of that, the dude was the President of the NFLPA.

Real life accomplishments > test scores

4/8/13

subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

Comment MS record? Or close?

I hate victims who respect their executioners

4/11/13

subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

is this the most monkey shit a post has gotten? curious what the most is

4/11/13

high hopes:
subrosa:
This is ridiculous...... I don't care about his "leadership" background or whatever. A 570 has to be borderline retarded. Honestly, anyone else gets a 570 and they don't have a shot anywhere other than Tennessee Martin or some garbage. This is yet another example of the world gone mad. American business is becoming laughable with the likes of Jay Z and Puff Daddy being considered businessmen. Now we have to endure knuckleheads like this matriculating at our finest school. Of course everyone will cheer this, but come on it's truly absurd.

is this the most monkey shit a post has gotten? curious what the most is

I believe so high hopes. I have my suspicions that it was all IP, but who knows. Regardless, the truth hurts and some people can stand it.

4/8/13

I think he's more than qualified to get into HBS, sure he scored low on the GMAT. But how many other candidates can say that they sat across the negotiating table from the 32 NFL owners and hammered out a CBA for the NFLPA.

Interesting side note, Domonique Foxworth's wife graduated from Harvard Law. I think thats pretty cool to not have a gold digging wife.

The NFL also has an agreement with Kellog and HBS, check the quote out below from a few years ago:

"Current and former starting quarterbacks BYRON LEFTWICH, JOHN BECK, CHARLIE BATCH, BRUCE GRADKOWSKI and BRADY QUINN are among the 66 players who have enrolled in the NFL Business Management and Entrepreneurial Program at Harvard Business School and the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University"

4/8/13

great job by HBS...it just goes to show that extracurriculars can be more important than your GMAT number

I eat success for breakfast...with skim milk

4/8/13

I'd much rather have him in my class than some boring Asian IT or accounting guy with no social skills. Not trying to be mean but I am sure most people feel the same.

I went to a few admit weekends at the schools I got admitted into and I was shocked by some people I met there. No personality, only able to talk about job related subjects, not willing to drink or partake in social activities and not even nice or modest.

4/8/13

Haters gonna hate.

Congrats to him, very different from your average HBS applicant. If it was up to you guys, I'm sure a class at HBS will be full of guys who came from IB/PE/VC/HF with one week volunteering at the homeless shelter. And the class might even be dominated by group-thinkers.

Outside of the 570 GMAT, his resume is pretty impressive if you ask me.

How many NFL players have gone to bschool?
How easy is it to become the president of the NFLPA?

I wouldn't be surprise if Myron Rolle (FSU Rhodes Scholar) takes a stab at business school in the near future.

4/8/13

If you don't think playing several years in the NFL while serving on its executive committee is as impressive as playing with Microsoft Office for 14/hrs a day, you are literally outside of your mind. Besides, I'm sure this guy will enjoy himself as much as Desmond Bryant. NFL teams and top schools are extremely similar on a cultural basis.

4/8/13

His gmat is crazy low but his background is highly unique, so I think it's justified assuming he can keep up with the curriculum. Here's another data point: Jason Wright has similar background but with a much higher GMAT and it looks like he was denied from HBS (assuming he applied and he would have gone there if accepted). Ended up at McKinsey however so either way it ended well for him.
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=106728782&...

4/8/13

This Jason Wright feller - black, 740 GMAT, pre-med for undergrad at a good school, and a great + unique career. How could he not get into every school he applied for?

I therefore assume that he is attending Booth by choice.

4/8/13

Angus Macgyver:
This Jason Wright feller - black, 740 GMAT, pre-med for undergrad at a good school, and a great + unique career. How could he not get into every school he applied for?

I therefore assume that he is attending Booth by choice.

A friend of mine at Booth knows him well. From what i heard, he only applied to booth and kellogg because he wanted to stay in Chicago with his wife.

Accepted.com
4/8/13

Let's take a moment and reflect on Brady's (probably subrosa) suicidal thoughts right now.

4/8/13

BTbanker:
Let's take a moment and reflect on Brady's (probably subrosa) suicidal thoughts right now.

That was my first thought. LOL.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

4/8/13

72% of African Americans score lower than 500 on the GMAT, so I wouldn't hold the 570 against him too much in that context (only slightly

4/8/13

To HBS - This is trash. He's going to significantly hamper every group he's in because he will be able to contribute little to nothing. Why? Because at the end of the day he is just not that intelligent.

To Domonique - Good for you.

4/8/13

You have a hell of a higher chance of getting 720+ on a GMAT than getting into the NFL, just saying. Yeah 570 is quite low, but as others have said, everything else on his resume is quite unique and superb. How often do you see pro athletes (with proven leadership, teamwork, ability to work under stress skills) apply for elite business schools compared to your typical finance guy?

4/8/13

He scored in the 59th percentile. While that's not remotely exceptional, it's not "lolbad". Considering the guy probably hasn't had to read anything other than a playbook since high school (if then), his score isn't god-awful. Taking into account his exceptional leadership experience, "extracurriculars", charitable endeavors, and the fact that he has countless industry contacts and will undoubtedly make a fortune upon exiting HBS, I wouldn't think twice about admitting him if I were an adcom.

4/8/13

Hbs also admitted dubya's personal assistant who didn't even have a bachelors. No one was up in arms.

4/8/13

futurectdoc:
Hbs also admitted dubya's personal assistant who didn't even have a bachelors. No one was up in arms.

Folks actually were up in arms about that guy, but no one knows his GMAT. For all we know he could have crushed it. Obviously, it's much more likely that the President simply made a phone call on his behalf, but there's no smoking gun out there quite like that 570...however if that guy had the benefit of both the president pulling strings and being the rumored 490 GMAT scorer HBS allegedly accepted, I'm certain that people would be calling for his head.

Connections and nepotism are part of the game, folks. Dubya at Yale and HBS, John Kerry at Yale, Al Gore at Harvard, etc...

I'm more impressed by what this guy has done at this point in his career then either of the jokers listed above.

On another note, how did Jason Wright not get into HBS?
http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=106728782&...

740 GMAT? 33 MCAT?? NFLPA Rep?

4/8/13

Not to mention you are all assuming, which is a huge assumption, that he even studied for the gmat.

For all we know he told it once and blind, knowing it would be irrelevant in his particular case.

How many stupid 570 -> 700+ success stories do people write on here or gmatclub.

Did he study or did he take it blind, who knows, but assuming that is his best an final score errors more on the side or racist/jealous than not.

4/8/13

LOL at the basement dwelling aspie virgins getting their panties in a bunch about a 570 GMAT getting into HBS. I don't know if you bros are mad, jelly, or both.

4/8/13

He just wrote his ticket to a sweet front office job in the NFL.

The people hating on his GMAT are idiots. Leading the NFLPA is extremely impressive and speaks a lot about what his colleagues think of him. It's much more impressive than some geek that got top bucket once. Haters on this site today...

Somebody's flag football team just got a lot better.

4/8/13

Good for him. Who cares if he didn't "earn" it or "deserve" it in some traditional sense - he got it and that's all that matters. Bunch of cry babies whining about how it isn't fair.

4/8/13

CRE:
Good for him. Who cares if he didn't "earn" it or "deserve" it in some traditional sense - he got it and that's all that matters. Bunch of cry babies whining about how it isn't fair.
I agree. I'd love to see some standard HBS nerd say sh-t to his face. Not going to happen.

Maternity is a matter of fact, paternity is a matter of opinion.

4/8/13

I understand being an athlete requires you to be a "team player" and a "leader" or sorts, but let's get real.

Tons of people have these experiences (obviously not pro athlete level), but you really think this guy is that much value-add to the HBS class? Being a professional athlete, where much of your life is regimented and planned out for you, and being an independent-thinking leader in the business world are two different things. Pro athletes are told what to eat, how to save their money, how to spend their money, how to train, how to look in public, how to basically do everything; Not much independent thought involved.

Sure he comes from a very interesting background, but come on folks.

Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis - when I was dead broke man I couldn't picture this

4/8/13

So working your ass off number crunching at an IB or for MBB somehow makes you a world class leader? This guy was great at what he set out to do (play football), that's pretty much all HBS asks.

His GMAT score is irrelevant considering his background. I don't think he will add some amazing amount of value to the class but plenty of others with pedestrian (work and academic) backgrounds are admitted every year to keep the class perspectives balanced.

4/8/13

I'm going to speak very freely and candidly here and will probably end up disclosing more personal information than I should on an anonymous bulletin.

I am a black male with a fairly strong GPA and a 99th percentile GMAT. I am an alumnus of the SVMP program at HBS and aim to matriculate into the MBA program. Read about it here (http://www.hbs.edu/svmp/) if you are unfamiliar with it. After participating in so immersive a program (it literally mimics the MBA experience so fully, academically and socially), I would point out very frankly that what makes the classroom such a vibrant and engaging experience is the diversity of the voices represented.

Being brutally honest here, I hate affirmative action. Even as a URM who stands to benefit directly from it, I loathe it. I think it perpetuates the very problem it claims to solve. I refused to list my ethnicity on my college application; I think you should want me for the quantitative statistics I have earned, the extracurriculars you've seen me participate in, and the qualitative ability you can see I possess from the written material I share and the story I communicate. All that being said, HBS' approach to diversity is remarkably different from the norm. HBS gets it. It's about diversity of background and perspective. For SVMP at least, I don't know how they manage to do so stellar a job of getting smart, humble, genuine, accomplished people in the door when they have such limited information at their disposal via the written application. At least with the MBA process there's an in-person interview so I can understand they get a far better sense of who a candidate is.

Foxworthy does not need a GMAT score to get into HBS. HBS is a school that doesn't look to create leaders; it is one that looks to develop leaders. Foxworthy is clearly a leader. He has excelled as a college athlete (and withstood the pressures and temptations and all the pitfalls that experience includes by default), entered the premiere league for his sport, excelled among his peers there (both in physical performance and off the field as a leader), and gained unique experience in a small industry. Seriously, how many people can say they led a professional athletes' union, represented hundreds of players in collective bargaining negotiations (without any additional compensation for their work in that role), and lived in four of our nation's most prominent cities while doing all the above?

A GMAT score does not mean you are or are not a leader. A strong GMAT score means you have the determination, perseverance, or fortitude to endure the GMAT ordeal. I heard Dee Leopold say this verbatim. Granted, it probably indicates a good measure of innate intelligence as well, but raw intellectual horsepower and a strong work ethic do not automatically make one a leader. HBS does not use the GMAT as a means of admitting people. They use it as a way to reject people. An unusually high score does not help you in admissions as much as an unusually low one will hurt you. However, it is not the sole factor to determine your fate, nor the most prominent. I was lucky to crush it, but it is simply a function of how hard I prepared for it leading up to the exam date. I wanted to do well to compensate for the fact that I don't have a 3.85 in a soft subject, so I put in the effort for that GMAT number.

To circle back to my original point about the class composition, it is simply an inescapable fact that Foxworthy will be an immensely valuable addition to the class. From firsthand experience, I can state how amazing it is when you meet so many talented people, none of whom share too similar a background or story, yet where everyone is so full of ambition, of potential, and of vigor ... and can add to the discussion from the richness of their own experiences. I imagine he would bring that, and I imagine he demonstrated that in the admissions interview. Just as much as I'd value hearing the voice of the girl who spent two years at McKinsey before joining a sick biotech startup that got acquired by a F500 pharma when we encounter a healthcare case in TEM (The Entrepreneurial Manager, great class), or the guy who did GS TMT before KKR when he talks during BVI (Behavioral and Value Investing with Greenwood, also sick), I'd value hearing someone like Foxworthy talk during Negotiations or any of the leadership courses in the EC year.

Long story short, don't sandbag the guy because a single stat of his seems subpar to you. Realize that it truly is a holistic process, and this guy can offer a lot to the classroom that matters.

Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

4/8/13

APAE:
Foxworthy Foxworthy Foxworthy Foxworthy

You know we're talking the NFL player, not the redneck comedian, right?

9/15/13

CRE:
APAE:
Foxworthy Foxworthy Foxworthy Foxworthy

You know we're talking the NFL player, not the redneck comedian, right?


Lacing them up now ... taking a lap.

Most people do things to add days to their life. I do things to add life to my days.

Browse my blog as a WSO contributing author

4/8/13

APAE:
I'm going to speak very freely and candidly here and will probably end up disclosing more personal information than I should on an anonymous bulletin.

I am a black male with a fairly strong GPA and a 99th percentile GMAT. I am an alumnus of the SVMP program at HBS and aim to matriculate into the MBA program. Read about it here (http://www.hbs.edu/svmp/) if you are unfamiliar with it. After participating in so immersive a program (it literally mimics the MBA experience so fully, academically and socially), I would point out very frankly that what makes the classroom such a vibrant and engaging experience is the diversity of the voices represented.

Being brutally honest here, I hate affirmative action. Even as a URM who stands to benefit directly from it, I loathe it. I think it perpetuates the very problem it claims to solve. I refused to list my ethnicity on my college application; I think you should want me for the quantitative statistics I have earned, the extracurriculars you've seen me participate in, and the qualitative ability you can see I possess from the written material I share and the story I communicate. All that being said, HBS' approach to diversity is remarkably different from the norm. HBS gets it. It's about diversity of background and perspective. For SVMP at least, I don't know how they manage to do so stellar a job of getting smart, humble, genuine, accomplished people in the door when they have such limited information at their disposal via the written application. At least with the MBA process there's an in-person interview so I can understand they get a far better sense of who a candidate is.

Foxworthy does not need a GMAT score to get into HBS. HBS is a school that doesn't look to create leaders; it is one that looks to develop leaders. Foxworthy is clearly a leader. He has excelled as a college athlete (and withstood the pressures and temptations and all the pitfalls that experience includes by default), entered the premiere league for his sport, excelled among his peers there (both in physical performance and off the field as a leader), and gained unique experience in a small industry. Seriously, how many people can say they led a professional athletes' union, represented hundreds of players in collective bargaining negotiations (without any additional compensation for their work in that role), and lived in four of our nation's most prominent cities while doing all the above?

A GMAT score does not mean you are or are not a leader. A strong GMAT score means you have the determination, perseverance, or fortitude to endure the GMAT ordeal. I heard Dee Leopold say this verbatim. Granted, it probably indicates a good measure of innate intelligence as well, but raw intellectual horsepower and a strong work ethic do not automatically make one a leader. HBS does not use the GMAT as a means of admitting people. They use it as a way to reject people. An unusually high score does not help you in admissions as much as an unusually low one will hurt you. However, it is not the sole factor to determine your fate, nor the most prominent. I was lucky to crush it, but it is simply a function of how hard I prepared for it leading up to the exam date. I wanted to do well to compensate for the fact that I don't have a 3.85 in a soft subject, so I put in the effort for that GMAT number.

To circle back to my original point about the class composition, it is simply an inescapable fact that Foxworthy will be an immensely valuable addition to the class. From firsthand experience, I can state how amazing it is when you meet so many talented people, none of whom share too similar a background or story, yet where everyone is so full of ambition, of potential, and of vigor ... and can add to the discussion from the richness of their own experiences. I imagine he would bring that, and I imagine he demonstrated that in the admissions interview. Just as much as I'd value hearing the voice of the girl who spent two years at McKinsey before joining a sick biotech startup that got acquired by a F500 pharma when we encounter a healthcare case in TEM (The Entrepreneurial Manager, great class), or the guy who did GS TMT before KKR when he talks during BVI (Behavioral and Value Investing with Greenwood, also sick), I'd value hearing someone like Foxworthy talk during Negotiations or any of the leadership courses in the EC year.

Long story short, don't sandbag the guy because a single stat of his seems subpar to you. Realize that it truly is a holistic process, and this guy can offer a lot to the classroom that matters.

Literally the ultimate answer. Might as well close down the thread.

4/8/13

APAE:
I'm going to speak very freely and candidly here and will probably end up disclosing more personal information than I should on an anonymous bulletin.

I am a black male with a fairly strong GPA and a 99th percentile GMAT. I am an alumnus of the SVMP program at HBS and aim to matriculate into the MBA program. Read about it here (http://www.hbs.edu/svmp/) if you are unfamiliar with it. After participating in so immersive a program (it literally mimics the MBA experience so fully, academically and socially), I would point out very frankly that what makes the classroom such a vibrant and engaging experience is the diversity of the voices represented.

Being brutally honest here, I hate affirmative action. Even as a URM who stands to benefit directly from it, I loathe it. I think it perpetuates the very problem it claims to solve. I refused to list my ethnicity on my college application; I think you should want me for the quantitative statistics I have earned, the extracurriculars you've seen me participate in, and the qualitative ability you can see I possess from the written material I share and the story I communicate. All that being said, HBS' approach to diversity is remarkably different from the norm. HBS gets it. It's about diversity of background and perspective. For SVMP at least, I don't know how they manage to do so stellar a job of getting smart, humble, genuine, accomplished people in the door when they have such limited information at their disposal via the written application. At least with the MBA process there's an in-person interview so I can understand they get a far better sense of who a candidate is.

Foxworthy does not need a GMAT score to get into HBS. HBS is a school that doesn't look to create leaders; it is one that looks to develop leaders. Foxworthy is clearly a leader. He has excelled as a college athlete (and withstood the pressures and temptations and all the pitfalls that experience includes by default), entered the premiere league for his sport, excelled among his peers there (both in physical performance and off the field as a leader), and gained unique experience in a small industry. Seriously, how many people can say they led a professional athletes' union, represented hundreds of players in collective bargaining negotiations (without any additional compensation for their work in that role), and lived in four of our nation's most prominent cities while doing all the above?

A GMAT score does not mean you are or are not a leader. A strong GMAT score means you have the determination, perseverance, or fortitude to endure the GMAT ordeal. I heard Dee Leopold say this verbatim. Granted, it probably indicates a good measure of innate intelligence as well, but raw intellectual horsepower and a strong work ethic do not automatically make one a leader. HBS does not use the GMAT as a means of admitting people. They use it as a way to reject people. An unusually high score does not help you in admissions as much as an unusually low one will hurt you. However, it is not the sole factor to determine your fate, nor the most prominent. I was lucky to crush it, but it is simply a function of how hard I prepared for it leading up to the exam date. I wanted to do well to compensate for the fact that I don't have a 3.85 in a soft subject, so I put in the effort for that GMAT number.

To circle back to my original point about the class composition, it is simply an inescapable fact that Foxworthy will be an immensely valuable addition to the class. From firsthand experience, I can state how amazing it is when you meet so many talented people, none of whom share too similar a background or story, yet where everyone is so full of ambition, of potential, and of vigor ... and can add to the discussion from the richness of their own experiences. I imagine he would bring that, and I imagine he demonstrated that in the admissions interview. Just as much as I'd value hearing the voice of the girl who spent two years at McKinsey before joining a sick biotech startup that got acquired by a F500 pharma when we encounter a healthcare case in TEM (The Entrepreneurial Manager, great class), or the guy who did GS TMT before KKR when he talks during BVI (Behavioral and Value Investing with Greenwood, also sick), I'd value hearing someone like Foxworthy talk during Negotiations or any of the leadership courses in the EC year.

Long story short, don't sandbag the guy because a single stat of his seems subpar to you. Realize that it truly is a holistic process, and this guy can offer a lot to the classroom that matters.

And that's how SVMP represents right there. Hope you dropped a mic and walked away from the computer after you typed that bro.

4/12/13

idragmazda:
I understand being an athlete requires you to be a "team player" and a "leader" or sorts, but let's get real.

Tons of people have these experiences (obviously not pro athlete level), but you really think this guy is that much value-add to the HBS class? Being a professional athlete, where much of your life is regimented and planned out for you, and being an independent-thinking leader in the business world are two different things. Pro athletes are told what to eat, how to save their money, how to spend their money, how to train, how to look in public, how to basically do everything; Not much independent thought involved.

Sure he comes from a very interesting background, but come on folks.

Independent thinking? Been around the block much? You obviously have never been in a boardroom, a client pitch, or even a business school classroom. MDs at banks and partners at MBB got to their positions by being very good at telling clients what they want to hear. I would argue that professional athletes understand that more than most of the maladjusted people who populate the world of finance.

Btw, when it's all said and done,that GMAT score won't even be the worst in his class. There's someone in the HBS Class of 2013 with a 490 GMAT. http://www.mbamission.com/blog/2011/09/14/mba-news...

5/20/13

How is this ANY different from an investment banking analyst monkey?

4/8/13

"An unrestricted free agent in the 2009 offseason, Foxworth signed a four-year, $28 million contract with the Baltimore Ravens on February 27. The deal included $16.5 million guaranteed.[4][5]"

Pretty sure he's already more successful than 99% of HBS grads. And who cares - it's one spot in an already ridiculously large class size.

4/8/13

As he was previously the president of the NFLPA and also previsouly served on the exec committee, I wouldn't be surprised if he was interested in working as an NFL agent or in some other sports-related capacity. If so, his reason for getting an mba makes a lot of sense to adcoms. Much more sense than TFA/engineer/non-profit --> MBA --> IBD/PE. Based on his professional experience, he may not add a ton of value to finance/accounting classes, but I'm sure it'd be interesting to have him in an ethics/negotiations class. The stories would probably be facinating and non-traditional. I'd much, much rather hear about NFL lockout talks as opposed to some IT guy babble on about how he negotiated 10% net net savings by implementing xyz software, zzzzz.

Now, if he's trying to break into mgmt consulting or PE with a 570 gmat, that's another story...

4/8/13

Jason Wright is probably just a Chicago guy - don't assume he didn't get in there (he went northwestern for UG).

Also as a bschool student, I wouldn't give a shit if the guy had a low gmat but was the nflpa president, I think he would be a great classmate.

4/8/13

ke18sb:
Also as a bschool student, I wouldn't give a shit if the guy had a low gmat but was the nflpa president, I think he would be a great classmate.

Not to mention that he'd probably be cool to chill with. Get some good workout tips, go out on the weekends, etc. Not going to want to be doing that with a host of other people

4/8/13

yeah i would take him over someone with a 780.

Money Never Sleeps? More like Money Never SUCKS amirite?!?!?!?

4/8/13

I always feel bad for folks w/ low GMATs who get admitted to top 15 schools because their career options are limited. You'll get crucified trying to go into consulting w/ a 570 GMAT. Banks also want to know your GMAT. I doubt this guy, who's already very well off, would probably want to go through the hassle of an MBB or IB stint, lol. He'll probably get a cushy PE or hedge fund gig that will allow him to leverage his contacts appropriately.

I assume the schools understand this with lower end GMAT scorers and only let them in if they have atypical stories and atypical post MBA career plans (entrepreneurship, general management, non-profit, etc) or major league connections that will enable them to overcome recruiting pitfalls. He likely has both.

4/8/13

TheGrind:
I always feel bad for folks w/ low GMATs who get admitted to top 15 schools because their career options are limited. You'll get crucified trying to go into consulting w/ a 570 GMAT. Banks also want to know your GMAT.

...you do realize that there are other options post-MBA, right?

TheGrind:
He'll probably get a cushy PE or hedge fund gig that will allow him to leverage his contacts appropriately.

What? He probably won't do finance at all.

I can't tell if you're a troll or if you really think that's how the entire world works

4/8/13

TheGrind:
I always feel bad for folks w/ low GMATs who get admitted to top 15 schools because their career options are limited. You'll get crucified trying to go into consulting w/ a 570 GMAT. Banks also want to know your GMAT. I doubt this guy, who's already very well off, would probably want to go through the hassle of an MBB or IB stint, lol. He'll probably get a cushy PE or hedge fund gig that will allow him to leverage his contacts appropriately.

I assume the schools understand this with lower end GMAT scorers and only let them in if they have atypical stories and atypical post MBA career plans (entrepreneurship, general management, non-profit, etc) or major league connections that will enable them to overcome recruiting pitfalls. He likely has both.

Woosh...

MM IB -> TMT Corporate Development

4/8/13

I've counted two people who've blamed people's reactions to this on racism.... stop. just [email protected] stop

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

4/8/13

The guy's obviously a leader that fit squarely into HBS' recruiting profile. Plus since he has already earned a lot more both monetary and reputation-wise than many of his peers, his intention of getting a HBS MBA is arguably "purer" than a lot of the other candidates.

4/8/13

I believe I mentioned some of those options.

right here, actually: "(entrepreneurship, general management, non-profit, etc)"

Thanks for playing

4/8/13

There is so much butt hurt in this thread it is actually making my head hurt.

patternfinder:

Of course, I would just buy in scales.

See my WSO Blog | my AMA

4/8/13
4/8/13

Where is the Brady suicide watch livestream??? Pls link.

4/8/13

LMAO at all the dumbasses on this thread who think

1) he sucks because he didn't come from BB/MBB + >700 + >3.8GPA
2) he's targeting the buyside after HBS

wallstreetoasis fosters some of the most ignorant, close-minded idiots around....and continues to get polluted every day by middle-schoolers starting clueless threads. i am so glad HBS took in foxworth and not you, because you're fuckin trash.

Since when was MBA an acronym for Institute of Investment Banking and Consulting?

4/8/13

BanditPandit:
LMAO at all the dumbasses on this thread who think

1) he sucks because he didn't come from BB/MBB + >700 + >3.8GPA
2) he's targeting the buyside after HBS

wallstreetoasis fosters some of the most ignorant, close-minded idiots around....and continues to get polluted every day by middle-schoolers starting clueless threads. i am so glad HBS took in foxworth and not you, because you're fuckin trash.

Since when was MBA an acronym for Institute of Investment Banking and Consulting?

Oh but they suggest general management as a potential exit opp too!

Lol people are morons

4/8/13

BanditPandit:
Since when was MBA an acronym for Institute of Investment Banking and Consulting?

MBA = Most Badass Analyst - or - Most Badass Associate - or - Mega Bain Alum

Didn't you know that?

"Durr...but how will he do PE if he can't build a financial model!"

People are so incredibly out of touch with reality and what doing business actually means, it's frightening.

4/8/13

TheKing:
People are so incredibly out of touch with reality and what doing business actually means, it's frightening.

It makes me wonder if a lot of these people are just undergrads or highschoolers taking something they read on the forums as dogma and repeating it as many times as possible.

4/8/13

I previously posted that this was a trash decision by HBS, but a lot of good points have changed my mind. I was only thinking of the finance and accounting oriented courses, and agree that he won't be of much value to these classes. However, he'll be a valuable asset to every other class. I think he'll also be a great benefit to a multitude of MBA extracurricular clubs and activities (including the intramural teams).

4/8/13

Bottom line: He's FAR from your "average" 570 scorer. If I were sitting around with a 570 contemplating test prep/admissions consultant services, this certainly wouldn't be the story that gives me any hope.

and as I stated before, anything around a 600 means you'll be able to handle the coursework. The value placed on a high gmat is overblown these days-unfortunately it gets used as both a weeding and measuring tool.

4/8/13

So..I was a division 1a football player who went on to do an M.A. and then MBA after my career ended.

I think for the most part the intelligent people on this board have already addressed why is credentials are more than qualified for the opportunity that he is getting, but I thought I would add my two cents.

HBS seems to be well known for taking the intriguing star as opposed to the run-of the mill overachiever. One friend who got into to HBS..with a low gmat..low this..low that, told me that he believes the difference is that they aren't looking for the next banker making 300k..but the next person on the cover of Times.

Foxworth is a man that negotiated at arms length with 32 of the most successful people in the world. This is a person who was chosen to represent the interest of an entire union of millionaire hot shots who have been the alpha male of every interaction in their life.

This is a man...that lived in a world that gave him every opportunity to not give a damn about furthering his education..yet after grossing over $30 mill (more than probably everyone in his HBS class) during his career...wanted to come back and do Harvard the favor of attending their school.

Yes..I say doing harvard the favor. He could have gone to several other schools..recieved a similar education...made great connects (though he I'm sure he has more connects than he needs) and come out to an executive job in the NFL or a host of other options.

Now on to being an athlete...Yes there's a host of knuckleheads..there's guys that don't give a damn about school and only care about themselves...But this is a man who has handled the pressure of the board room infront of 12 execs..and handles the pressure of performing infront of 60k on a regular basis. I know these guys make it look easy..but that's doesn't mean you could do it too.

Supply and demand...thousands of GS, Mck ect. people out there. Only and handful of guys with Dominque's credentials

4/8/13

thatguy12345:
This is a person who was chosen to represent the interest of an entire union of millionaire hot shots who have been the alpha male of every interaction in their life.

I was also a collegiate football player and believe this point cannot be overstated and shows a great deal more about his abilities than any standardized test possibly could.

There is a huge difference between the type A personalities you see in finance and those you see in football, particularly the NFL. Being able to lead and be respected by a large group of those men is something that is much more valuable than any test score.

patternfinder:

Of course, I would just buy in scales.

See my WSO Blog | my AMA

4/8/13

Damn some of you bros are jelly as fuuuuu. Good on him.

4/8/13

fuark brah, you mirin??

I don't want to be a product of the environment, i want the environment to be a product of me

4/8/13

Gonna add in another thought: the GMAT is really, really easy if you've spent your entire life (ages 5-22) cranking it out in the classroom and busting ass to get that perfect 4.0 and 2300+ on your SAT. You've spent your whole life studying.

If you're a former NFL player, you've spent the majority of your life outside the classroom on the football field. You never had the time in high school or college to sit down and study for 15 hours on end, or read the Iliad, or whatever. That's all time you need to spend in the gym, watching film, whatever. If you're busting ass to get good grades, with a few exceptions (maybe Andrew Luck), you're not gonna be a starter. It's a time commitment element.

So I'm just as impressed with a 570 from a former NFL player as I am with a 740 by a Harvard grad. I mean if you've gotten an Ivy education and your whole life has revolved around academics until you graduated from college, you SHOULD be doing better on the test than the former pro athlete.

4/8/13

triplectz:

So I'm just as impressed with a 570 from a former NFL player as I am with a 740 by a Harvard grad. I mean if you've gotten an Ivy education and your whole life has revolved around academics until you graduated from college, you SHOULD be doing better on the test than the former pro athlete.

Do you actually think that attending a fancy college significantly affects a person's IQ?

Also, all of you nerds complaining about giving Foxworth a slot are out of your minds. He is without a doubt one of the most impressive guys HBS has managed to pull down in the last ten years.

4/8/13

holla_back:
triplectz:

So I'm just as impressed with a 570 from a former NFL player as I am with a 740 by a Harvard grad. I mean if you've gotten an Ivy education and your whole life has revolved around academics until you graduated from college, you SHOULD be doing better on the test than the former pro athlete.

Do you actually think that attending a fancy college significantly affects a person's IQ?

Also, all of you nerds complaining about giving Foxworth a slot are out of your minds. He is without a doubt one of the most impressive guys HBS has managed to pull down in the last ten years.

Seriously? The GMAT isn't an IQ test. If it were, practicing for it wouldn't improve results. It's a test of your reading comprehension, quantitative reasoning, and writing abilities, or whatever they call those sections. Which (wait for it), are all abilities you develop during your four years of undergrad. So call me a unreasonable, but I'd expect the Harvard Econ major, who spent a lot of time taking quantitative courses in his 4 years at this school with really great instructors, to do well on the *quantitative* section on the GMAT. And since he probably took some breadth courses to learn about great English novels, I think it's pretty fair to expect a great performance on a test for *critical reading* as well.

Bottom line: If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you should be great at taking tests. You spent 4 years doing jack-shit but that. At least by comparison to an NFL player. Foxworth probably hadn't studied for a multiple choice test since 11th grade.

4/8/13

triplectz:

Seriously? The GMAT isn't an IQ test. If it were, practicing for it wouldn't improve results. It's a test of your reading comprehension, quantitative reasoning, and writing abilities, or whatever they call those sections. Which (wait for it), are all abilities you develop during your four years of undergrad. So call me a unreasonable, but I'd expect the Harvard Econ major, who spent a lot of time taking quantitative courses in his 4 years at this school with really great instructors, to do well on the *quantitative* section on the GMAT. And since he probably took some breadth courses to learn about great English novels, I think it's pretty fair to expect a great performance on a test for *critical reading* as well.

Bottom line: If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you should be great at taking tests. You spent 4 years doing jack-shit but that.

The GMAT is, like the LSAT, ASVAB, SAT, and just about every other widely used standardized test, a veiled IQ test. It's obviously not a direct correlation, but the correlation most certainly does exist. Look, I'm not saying you can use a chart to directly match GMAT score to IQ -- you can, however, be damned sure that smart people will tend to do well, and not-too-smart people are going to have a whole lot of trouble. Hell, Mensa (silly organization, but still) accepts the GMAT for entry to their organization.

Also, there are very, very few people who significantly improve their scores through studying. The whole "I went from a 500 to a 780, woohoo!" happens to a statistically insignificant number of people.

(If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you probably only got into said school because you're far smarter than the great majority of the population -- of course an extremely intelligent person is going to do well on the GMAT.)

EDIT: All of this said, it's fucking obvious that Foxworth is more deserving of a spot at HBS than just about every single other person at the school. To argue otherwise is silly.

4/8/13

holla_back:
triplectz:

Seriously? The GMAT isn't an IQ test. If it were, practicing for it wouldn't improve results. It's a test of your reading comprehension, quantitative reasoning, and writing abilities, or whatever they call those sections. Which (wait for it), are all abilities you develop during your four years of undergrad. So call me a unreasonable, but I'd expect the Harvard Econ major, who spent a lot of time taking quantitative courses in his 4 years at this school with really great instructors, to do well on the *quantitative* section on the GMAT. And since he probably took some breadth courses to learn about great English novels, I think it's pretty fair to expect a great performance on a test for *critical reading* as well.

Bottom line: If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you should be great at taking tests. You spent 4 years doing jack-shit but that.

The GMAT is, like the LSAT, ASVAB, SAT, and just about every other widely used standardized test, a veiled IQ test. It's obviously not a direct correlation, but the correlation most certainly does exist. Look, I'm not saying you can use a chart to directly match GMAT score to IQ -- you can, however, be damned sure that smart people will tend to do well, and not-too-smart people are going to have a whole lot of trouble. Hell, Mensa (silly organization, but still) accepts the GMAT for entry to their organization.

Also, there are very, very few people who significantly improve their scores through studying. The whole "I went from a 500 to a 780, woohoo!" happens to a statistically insignificant number of people.

(If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you probably only got into said school because you're far smarter than the great majority of the population -- of course an extremely intelligent person is going to do well on the GMAT.)

EDIT: All of this said, it's fucking obvious that Foxworth is more deserving of a spot at HBS than just about every single other person at the school. To argue otherwise is silly.

No, the GMAT, and every other standardized test for that matter, is simply the easiest way for adcoms to evaluate an applicant's preparedness for (insert college/grad program) controlling for differences in school and course selection. A person's GMAT score can be best related to GPA rather than pure intelligence (which, if I'm not mistaken, is what the IQ test measures). GMAT scores, like GPAs, are a product of raw intellectual ability, hard work, dedication, and some luck.

patternfinder:

Of course, I would just buy in scales.

See my WSO Blog | my AMA

4/8/13

Simple As...:
holla_back:
triplectz:

Seriously? The GMAT isn't an IQ test. If it were, practicing for it wouldn't improve results. It's a test of your reading comprehension, quantitative reasoning, and writing abilities, or whatever they call those sections. Which (wait for it), are all abilities you develop during your four years of undergrad. So call me a unreasonable, but I'd expect the Harvard Econ major, who spent a lot of time taking quantitative courses in his 4 years at this school with really great instructors, to do well on the *quantitative* section on the GMAT. And since he probably took some breadth courses to learn about great English novels, I think it's pretty fair to expect a great performance on a test for *critical reading* as well.

Bottom line: If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you should be great at taking tests. You spent 4 years doing jack-shit but that.

The GMAT is, like the LSAT, ASVAB, SAT, and just about every other widely used standardized test, a veiled IQ test. It's obviously not a direct correlation, but the correlation most certainly does exist. Look, I'm not saying you can use a chart to directly match GMAT score to IQ -- you can, however, be damned sure that smart people will tend to do well, and not-too-smart people are going to have a whole lot of trouble. Hell, Mensa (silly organization, but still) accepts the GMAT for entry to their organization.

Also, there are very, very few people who significantly improve their scores through studying. The whole "I went from a 500 to a 780, woohoo!" happens to a statistically insignificant number of people.

(If you've graduated with great grades from a great school, you probably only got into said school because you're far smarter than the great majority of the population -- of course an extremely intelligent person is going to do well on the GMAT.)

EDIT: All of this said, it's fucking obvious that Foxworth is more deserving of a spot at HBS than just about every single other person at the school. To argue otherwise is silly.

GMAT scores, like GPAs, are a product of raw intellectual ability, hard work, dedication, and some luck.

This part of what you wrote is correct, though the GMAT (or LSAT, whatever) tends to measure raw ability over conscientiousness, while a person's GPA tends to measure conscientiousness over raw ability. Both are pretty important when it comes to being successful in a competitive academic environment.

Serious question: do you think that someone with an IQ of 90 would be able to score a 740+ simply by studying?

4/8/13

holla_back:

This part of what you wrote is correct, though the GMAT (or LSAT, whatever) tends to measure raw ability over conscientiousness, while a person's GPA tends to measure conscientiousness over raw ability. Both are pretty important when it comes to being successful in a competitive academic environment.

Serious question: do you think that someone with an IQ of 90 would be able to score a 740+ simply by studying?

First, to answer your question: No, I don't think is likely someone with an IQ of 90 would score 740+ on the GMAT. And, for the record, that is not what I was trying to argue. However, I don't know that someone with an IQ of 90 would ever actually seriously take the GMAT. Which should probably be factored in to analysis of the range of GMAT scores.

I will agree the GMAT does measure raw ability a little more heavily than GPA, but we will have to agree to disagree on whether it is the main factor. I believe standardized test scores show a certain base line of intelligence, but are mainly a result of hard work and dedication. This is based on personal experience and sharing of scores and GPAs among friends and colleagues.

Also, I will stand by my assertion that standardized tests are simply the easiest way for adcoms to evaluate an applicant's preparedness for a particular institution against other applicants controlling for school and course selections. What I mean is, a 4.0 at University A does not necessarily equate to a 4.0 at University B even if A is ranked higher, etc.

patternfinder:

Of course, I would just buy in scales.

See my WSO Blog | my AMA

4/8/13

This thread made me:

1) disappointed that a lot of people have defined their self-worth (and thus seek to define others' self-worth) by a test score. I hope life treats you more gently than you treated Dominique in your assessments, and does not brutally disappoint you.

2) relieved, happy, honored to be at HBS with Dominique, and to be part of the HBS community with a few of the posters here. Thank you for countering the polemics of narrow-mindedness with class.

4/8/13

venturecapitalista:
This thread made me:

1) disappointed that a lot of people have defined their self-worth (and thus seek to define others' self-worth) by a test score. I hope life treats you more gently than you treated Dominique in your assessments, and does not brutally disappoint you.

2) relieved, happy, honored to be at HBS with Dominique, and to be part of the HBS community with a few of the posters here. Thank you for countering the polemics of narrow-mindedness with class.

Perfecting the art of the humblebrag.

Maternity is a matter of fact, paternity is a matter of opinion.

4/8/13

Can one of the middleschoolers or kindy gardeners make a thread that schools us on the definition of "acronym". I'm not sure if all of us are quite there yet.

4/8/13

BTbanker:
kindy gardeners

Thank you for this.

4/8/13

I wonder if this guy would do well on the HBS intramural flag football team or not?

4/8/13

FrankD'anconia:
I wonder if this guy would do well on the HBS intramural flag football team or not?

With a score of 570 no way, prob can't think on his feet would definitely ride the bench..............

"When you expect things to happen - strangely enough - they do happen."
- JP Morgan

4/8/13

Why do people think it's so hard becoming the prez of the union nfl players? It's not like the competition is that fierce at that lvl...

4/8/13

I think this was probably a very easy decision for the adcom. Come on guys. This guy's resume is off the charts. Who cares about his gmat. If his profile doesn't fit the bill for a unique candidate I don't know what does.

4/8/13

also tyra banks was the best person hbs accepted u idiots

go get educated brah

4/8/13

what does he have to offer tho?

i would take a bet in 10 years he writes a book about race and hbs

4/8/13

blastoise:
what does he have to offer tho?

i would take a bet in 10 years he writes a book about race and hbs

This is b-school we're talking about. Not exactly NASA. His resume is that of a proven high pressure performer both on the field and in the NFL front office. He can be taught the "textbook" stuff. He does have 2 undergraduate degrees after all.

He'll probably waltz right back into an NFL front office job if he feels so inclined. Wouldn't you like to have THAT guy in your network?

4/8/13

TheGrind:
blastoise:
what does he have to offer tho?

i would take a bet in 10 years he writes a book about race and hbs

This is b-school we're talking about. Not exactly NASA. His resume is that of a proven high pressure performer both on the field and in the NFL front office. He can be taught the "textbook" stuff. He does have 2 undergraduate degrees after all.

He'll probably waltz right back into an NFL front office job if he feels so inclined. Wouldn't you like to have THAT guy in your network?

(You're responding to Blastoise.)

4/8/13

Holy shit why is there so much butthurt in this thread

Equities are for chumps.

4/8/13

A 90 IQ is average/borderline average (anything below that is a disability which changes the dynamic). I'd have to say that if this person spent years upon years preparing to take the GMAT and dedicated significant parts of their life to studying and practicing for it they could eventually hit 740. But whoever lived solely focused on test prep for one exam? so the 740 would be unlikely.

But someone with a 90 IQ or below would have a tough time doing well in most academic environments unless they were serious grinders. There are also weaknesses that some people need specific or targeted training to overcome. I've seen brilliant writers and wordsmiths with ZERO math brain. they get GMATs with crazy looking imbalances (99th% verbal 55% Quant). These people aren't "dumb" by any means-just have a very underdeveloped number sense/math brain-and need to catch up on a lifetime worth of study/practice

longwinded way of saying that for most people, it's hard to find accurate measures of raw intelligence, potential, and effort level all rolled up into one-and then proceed to compare that to the next person! which is why the b-school admissions process is holistic.

You guys ever seen "Gattaca"? Interesting take on genetic potential, human potential, and overcoming limitations. This thread has got me thinking about it because of my own GMAT issue. My baseline was 520. Studied like a mad man for 2-3 months and got it up to 700- then hit a plateau. I've been doing everything in my power since to get it up to around a 730 (personal pride, and genuine curiosity about my own potential) but on practice tests I'm stuck at around 690-720. Quant has got me by the balls. 45/46 is it for me. I understand that diminishing returns are setting in, and that I've perhaps reached the limits of my raw intelligence. I also avoided math like the plague until I started working, so i'm behind the curve. But I am a grinder, and so I'll keep practicing until i hopefully see something higher. But I'm not holding my breath! My baseline was just way too low, and the exam too clever to allow a 210 point leap.

But had I spent years working on the foundations I needed to do well, I'm confident I'd have done much better.

4/8/13

Surprised that anyone would say Foxworth is undeserving. Seriously, playing at the highest level in the most physically demanding sport takes so much commitment it's unbelievable. As far a being a dynic candidate that can add tremendous cake to an MBA classroom, Foxworth is leaps and bounds ahead of us.

There is so much lost potential in the black community, sports or otherwise, because of all the shitty influences in the hood. I'm sure his essays were crafted by professionals to have his story spot on. I find a lot I these commented quite silly: privileged bankers bitching about someone who has been working there as off there entire life just to get out of the hood, let alone be successful in the NFL and having the influence to become president of the NFLPA.

And hot damn, irk if he is wifed up but the HBS broads will be come flocking. Won't be fair to all the standard white guys trying to get it in.

4/8/13

Didn't Jared Dillian ("Street Freak") get laughed at by his colleagues for scoring a 680? How embarrassingly low is a 570?

"Where is Knight?"

4/8/13

Welcome to reality guys. The dude is rich and famous and Harvard cares about alumni donations and being well known. I love it when people who know that something is bullshit, but buy into it anyway and then get upset when someone illustrates just how bullshit it truly is.

Honestly, who cares and good luck for this dude going to Harvard. If I was him I would go to a dozen elite universities and then show up at academic circle jerk fests and just drop brand name after brand name.

4/8/13

good call by HBS. This guy will further HBS brand alot more than random IBD dude with a 710 GMAT. He should just do PWM for his NFL athletes, could also start a second under armour lol.

People live in this delusion that prestigious B-Schools are the pinnacle of intellectual rigor, this is incorrect. Intellectual caliber at top b-schools is mediocre at best, intellectual rigor is non-existent (and its not meant to be).

4/8/13

People arguing back and forth at length about the merits of the GMAT as an IQ test need to take a deep breath, look solemnly into the distance, and re-evaluate everything they've ever felt to be true.

4/8/13

I believe that the response to this question and the comments on the WSO are very skewed because a large majority of members are high school/college students or early in their career. I can tell you that 10 year or 20 years later, you'll look back at your career and you'll certainly consider that your GMAT / SAT score didn't mean anything about you...you might start a career with it but your life will mainly depend on a lot more than this.

Roughly 0.2% of high school seniors make it to the NFL. This is not just talent, it's also hard work, dedication and a lot of sacrifices. To be honest I have done my MBA and spent quite a lot of time with ex-marines/navy guys, i can tell you that many didn't have a great GMAT but that they were excellent in many other fields like decision making, leadership, communication, team mgmt etc...

HBS made a terrific choice, great addition to a MBA class

4/8/13

The problem is making financial models using methods that can be done more efficiently by putting data into a program like java or c++ is way more hard in a way unmeasurable by man and the highest power whic is harder than nfl

4/8/13

Win for HBS: They get to brag about a unique admit who adds a lot of diverse experience to the classroom. The students will gain from his experience both in the classroom and socially. I think HBS made a good choice.

Tie for Foxworth: Doubt it was tough to negotiate labor decisions in a league that is making money hand over fist and who has to listen to the POTUS to make addresses about violence in the game because the league and players are reluctant to make changes to the rules of the game to protect player safety. He gained a ton of leadership and managerial experience from his time in the sport by observing the way the organizations functioned and by interacting with coaches and other players.

I think he is going to have a good time at HBS because he will be surrounded by professionals from varied backgrounds who will enhance his managerial skills. Foxworth will graduate HBS and most likely go to a sports related job. To think he is going to toil away at an IB or MBB is laughable. He is smart enough not to be somebody's bitch. But I also think that his upside working for the league offices is minimal. He'll get the job, do some rotations, become assistant head of marketing or PR, and that will be it. He's not going to unseat Godell. Which begs the question, did he really need the MBA to begin with? If he goes to a different industry, his notoriety will overshadow his impact for a while until he can demonstrate that he is competitive with his peers.

Loss for Veritas: Anyone who has read the cheap piece on Poets and Quants knows the marketing stunt they pulled. They attempted to sell their services as an admissions consultancy on the premise that they are able to get customers with 570s in. This was no ordinary customer, and the average bloke who read the story was deceived.

4/8/13

Maybe the dude had a 5some the night before the GMAT. Maybe Ray Lewis kept the dude at the strip club till 5am, demanding duo dances. Maybe Ed Reed beat his ass in practice the day before.

You never know, either way hes a boss.

4/8/13

Normally, I would come into this thread and write a comment which would go something like "God bless Affirmative Action!" But this case is obviously different, and if I was headed to HBS this fall, I would love to sit in a Negotiations class with this guy. (I just hope he leaves his "hood" English behind, and speaks in class in proper English!)

But you know what drives me mad: Affirmative Action. This is THE CIVIL RIGHTS issue for us Asian-Americans.
An NFL player is something, but when a more normal Hispanic/Black guy gets into HBS with a 600 GMAT score because they are a "minority." Last time I checked, the population of Asian-Americans is less than Hispanic or Black Americans. We are a minority in this country dammit!

Just look at UCB, their Asian-American population shot up after they eliminated AA. Now I recognize that B School is not about academic performance, but the ad com should consider everything else but race.

After all, what advantage does a poor white kid from Missouri have over a middle class black kid from New Jersey? (People who support AA after recognizing this fact BELIEVE that the Black and Hispanic races' intelligence is less than that of other races. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANY SUCH FACT. We are all born with the same human brain, regardless of race/gender and are, potentially, equally capable. What can affect us is the environment we grow up in, so if there is to be AA, it should be based family circumstances, not race.)

What drives me seething with rage is totally WHITE South-American guy from Argentina/Chile getting the benefits of being a minority (Hispanic) when they are clearly of the Caucasian race. Absolutely drives me mad, mad, mad!

Finally, APAE has already said it, and I believe Justice Clarence Thomas has also said something along these lines that AA ends up hurting the really talented minorities. I think Justice Thomas failed to secure any job after YLS because everyone believed he got in only because of AA. The same thing might be happening today.

TheGrind, you are a conservative Republican. What do you think about Affirmative Action based on race?

4/8/13

mongoose:
...Finally, APAE has already said it, and I believe Justice Clarence Thomas has also said something along these lines that AA ends up hurting the really talented minorities. I think Justice Thomas failed to secure any job after YLS because everyone believed he got in only because of AA. The same thing might be happening today...

Thomas Sowell as well.

Regards

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan

4/8/13

mongoose:

TheGrind, you are a conservative Republican. What do you think about Affirmative Action based on race?

Not only am I a Conservative Republican, but I'm also black lol

I think Affirmative Action has too many flaws in its execution. For example, some of the black kids I saw in my applicant pool while applying to b-school were the ones who needed affirmative action the least. Upper Middle Class backgrounds, 700+ GMATs ,blue chip experience, prep schools, Ivy league undergrads, etc... you can't possibly tell me that those kids are worse off than some poor white kid from a trailer park in West Virginia. Me personally, I came from nothing and have been on my own since I was a teenager. the only thing I had in common with those kids is my race. But I guess because my brain functions well enough, I was able to get my gmat from 520 - 700. not impressive at all for WSO, but when you consider that less than 2% of blacks even reach 700, you understand why schools may not necessarily weight it as much in their favor.

In terms of the MBA, I think the schools do what they can. It's NOT an academic degree. As I keep reiterating, one only needs around a 600 GMAT to handle the coursework without any hiccups. That's why most schools could care less whether you got a 730 or 790. you've met the threshold beyond a certain number.

I also understand the need to build a diverse class. Asians are a tiny % of the population but actually end up being overrepresented in these schools. Also, my goddaughter's asian classmates are all enrolled in an afternoon "korean" school. you should see the kind of advanced math stuff they're working on. This school is designed to turn them all into test taking monsters-and of course it's prohibitively expensive. no average person can/will compete with that. What adcom or recruiter wants to see a class of nothing but 750 scoring asians? no offense to asians, but beyond a certain "limit", you'll get all you really need from them for the b-school experience. so you turn to other groups to round it out.

it ends up being a little unfair to everyone really (asians, poor black kids who lose out to polished richer ones, white males, etc), but unless you can figure out a way to get the average black or latino kid to have access to the same type of education as rich(er) kids get, it will have to do. Personally, I'm all for affirmative action based on income and class-not race and think we need to be looking more in that direction. I get personally offended when people don't even consider my accomplishments, but see me as some sort of victim or affirmative action charity case. They can't even help themselves even when/if they mean well. That does us no favors.

4/8/13

Good for him. I'd rather have admit him as one of the 1500 than some nameless ibanking/consulting scrub. Chances are he'll be far more valuable to the HBS brand than an equivalent admit.

Head of ~1500 member union in NFL.
Proven negotiation skills.
Professional athlete.
Above average intellect.

I wish I could claim that resume.

4/8/13

Actually he nfl union players got screwed so not really good negation skills imp

4/8/13

I think it was SC that held him back.

...riding their morality high horse...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/domonique-foxworth/m...
4/8/13

I understand why people are pissed. They think an MBA is about academics. People study hard, work hard, try and have a top GMAT, all in the hopes of getting into one of the most celebrated educational institutions in the country. This dude getting admitted is basically proof that an MBA can be completed by most normal people and that HBS cares about publicity and donations more than academic rigore.

I'd suggest all the truly intelligent people avoid an MBA and get a technical degree. Where is IP when you need him. Zero chance this dude would get into Princetons MFin program.

4/8/13

TNA:
I understand why people are pissed. They think an MBA is about academics. People study hard, work hard, try and have a top GMAT, all in the hopes of getting into one of the most celebrated educational institutions in the country. This dude getting admitted is basically proof that an MBA can be completed by most normal people and that HBS cares about publicity and donations more than academic rigore.

I'd suggest all the truly intelligent people avoid an MBA and get a technical degree. Where is IP when you need him. Zero chance this dude would get into Princetons MFin program.

I too wish IP would chime in, this thread could use a voice of reason!

4/9/13

TNA:
I understand why people are pissed. They think an MBA is about academics. People study hard, work hard, try and have a top GMAT, all in the hopes of getting into one of the most celebrated educational institutions in the country. This dude getting admitted is basically proof that an MBA can be completed by most normal people and that HBS cares about publicity and donations more than academic rigore.

I'd suggest all the truly intelligent people avoid an MBA and get a technical degree. Where is IP when you need him. Zero chance this dude would get into Princetons MFin program.

My respect for princeton mfin went up so much after they dinged me.

The smartest people from my elite undergrad did STEM Phd, md/phd, quant hedge funds, tech, and a few to yale law. MBA admissions was never about intelligence once you cross a certain threshold; it's about getting the right people who can become future leaders and give great publicity (and cash) to the school. People arguing that foxworth did not deserve to get in because of his GMAT score are totally missing the point.

4/8/13

Is this a new record for monkey shit?

"That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

4/8/13

FeelingMean:
Is this a new record for monkey shit?

Probably, but that's what people do when they can't counter an argument. I take it as a sign of superiority.

4/8/13

Sub, dog, I get your indignation, but an MBA doesn't accept the brightest people. This isn't a PhD from MIT. And MBA is about branding. You have all kinds of famous and fluff people doing MBAs.

It stinks, but it is the way it is.

4/8/13

Kim Kardashian has a pretty impressive resume too. Movie star -> Entertainment Icon -> M&A -> LBO

I bet she could get in with a 4XX.

4/9/13

Curious as to how many of you actually work on the street vs how many of you are pimply freshman undergrads hoping that because you're in a semi-target school think you will be the next Carl Icahn. Some of the most successful guys in the sales side are all ex athletes. Congrats for being smart, you only need requisite intelligence to be a banker - more if you want to be a quant, but athletes have a total different background that literally breed success. Surprised he wasted his time and money taking the GMAT and not applying cold without it. Good for him, he'll out earn most bankers thrice over.

As a side note, just because he's going to HBS doesn't mean he has to do finance. Corporate development/leadership? Literally the fast track to the c-level suite for hardworking ex-athletes. Stop the hatin

Twitter: @LeveragedBroOut

4/9/13

This is essentially why douche bags get hot women. This NFL dude is rich, connected and doesn't need HBS. HBS WANTS HIS NUTS and he could probably careless. Meanwhile you have Sub over here with the perfect resume sweating HBS hard and can't even get on base.

4/9/13

My biggest question: Why the fuck would he allow Veritas to release his GMAT score?

4/9/13

I would be far more likely to admit any of the players on the field in this video if I were the adcom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jmisv1Spck

4/9/13

I have no problem with his admission but what if he was an elite tennis or soccer player and not a football player and hence, not that well known in the US.

4/9/13

the reality is that with business school admissions, when you start to get into the upper echelon of schools, the game changes. it becomes less of a 'oh look at my high numbers' and more of a 'what makes me unique vs everyone else'. all of these business schools can easily fill their ranks with 2, 3, 4 times the amount of people necessary who would be 'smart' enough -- but its about crafting a class of different, unique, interesting people.

in terms of affirmative action and b school, it really isnt that hugeo f a boost contrary to what everyone thinks -- i do think certain things may or may not be weighed more and i think that spanish/basque/portuguese/chilean/argentinian etc may not be weighed more as other hispanic communities (just a hypothesis but they do ask what region youre from -- i am a quarter Basque so i qualify as hispanic but im not sure how much weight that actually adds) but who knows.. if you have a hard life story, then sell it in your app and how you overcame it. i did it and adcoms love adversity and crushing it vs being an asian kid who was forced to do piano lessons by their tiger mothers, who went to ivies and now do IBD.

i also think running the NFLPA is much more interesting and unique than your excel monkeying making pitchbooks and being told by your associate/vp/md to change it and run 200 more monte carlos on it or whatever you banker types do

THIS is very subjective but i think ALL business schools really do have a 'fit' or niche component which helps you get included in that accept pool or not --ive heard that wharton likes pedigree, harvard likes leadership, booth i think wants unique interesting backgrounds with strong curiosity behind them, tuck wants very communal types etc.

4/9/13

The guy deserved to get into HBS - he appears to have very good sales skills.

making a one eight zero.

4/9/13

What is up with this thread? This really should not be surprising. Top schools, like HBS, value leadership more than a GMAT score. They always have and always will. This guy has leadership skills that make a GS/KKR-type look like nothing. And to the prestige-whores: the NFL has a much smaller acceptance rate than any IB/PE/HF. If this guy had as much intelligence as athletic skill, he would have been the GS/KKR star, making the argument against him moot.

4/9/13

SB for you, Design. Great post.

4/9/13

Likening business to a kick return is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. Perhaps you should be an english major bud. All love.

4/9/13
4/9/13

TNA:
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail...

Great write up on this topic.

Foxworth's case really doesn't have too much to do with affirmative action though. He's so far outside the norm that you can't really treat him like a normal applicant.

4/9/13

holla_back:
TNA:
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail...

Great write up on this topic.

Foxworth's case really doesn't have too much to do with affirmative action though. He's so far outside the norm that you can't really treat him like a normal applicant.

Agree. But I think AA is running threw this thread. Just thought I would throw a relevant article up for discussion.

4/9/13

No different than most college athletes have lower GPA/SAT/ACT requirements than regular students.

4/9/13

I hope this guy is the next hbs admit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8LuQItZaDs

4/9/13

This dude's race legit NEVER crossed my mind while reading this thread, lol. Maybe that's just me though.

4/9/13

The reason there are so many "but hurt" people on this board is because of cognitive dissonance.

You thought you knew what an elite MBA applicant looked like..you thought you knew the recipie...and now that it doesn't fit the schema you now have a conflict within your own psyche.

It's nice to think that the hot girl that doesn't like you is also a jerk, stupid, arrogant. It make's us feel better about not looking as good..we all do it.

Saying that Dominique is a impressive applicant is an understatement. I don't need to go through his credentials again.

But what all of a sudden made all these people on this board more astute at picking out winners the HBS, but yet 99% would give their first born for the opportunity. So Harvard is the holy grail...but when they pick a guy who doesn't look, think, or act like me..it's the plague of affirmative action or some other superfluous reason for his acceptance

But it boggles my mind at how closely some of you guys adhere to this archetype of what an MBA candidate is suppose to look like. It's crazy how you believe that a pedigree is more important than production.

As many have stated before..an MBA is not about producing peer-reviewed information. It's about teaching people with talent frame works and tools to better use their raw abilities.

Simple economics of supply and demand....there's not a lot of Dominique foxworths out there..

If I took away the fact that he was a football player and Black (the two descriptions that seem to cause the most controversy)...and I said i knew of a 30 year old guy...worth 30 million who'c surrent job is the player rep for the NFL PA looking to hone his skills in the best way possible.

Just because you do everything you thought was right...don't get what you want..doesn't mean the other guy got it for free...

He might...just might...be better than you

4/9/13

I'd have to disagree on one point. No one cares about his race or job-they're only harping on that GMAT score and what it may or may not mean about his intellectual faculties at an elite institution given the makeup of the rest of the class. I think it's a legitimate (though unimportant) concern. He's been to college and has 2 undergraduate degrees. the MBA is not an academic degree, and a GMAT score above 50th percentile should be enough to ensure that one isn't brain dead in class. He clearly passes the smell test. That being the case, someone who does something at an elite level and has shown leadership can be forgiven for having a mediocre GMAT score.

You'll notice that when we posted Jason White's stats, no one got upset. He's a black pro football player, an NFLPA rep, and has a 740 GMAT. No one cared about his race or status or faculties. I just resent seeing the race card get played on topics that-at their heart-are trivial.

My only real issue with the people hating on him is that by now we should all be aware that the GMAT is just ONE factor. Harvard once let in someone with a 490. a 490!!! The world didn't end, and it didn't become a less competitive school. This guy is clearly exceptional. He may not be super smart in the IQ/standardized test sense, but he doesn't need to be. He's already $30 million ahead of the rest of us brainiacs.

4/9/13

being smart is much more than a standardized test score... MUCH more

If your dreams don't scare you, then they are not big enough.

"There are two types of people in this world: People who say they pee in the shower, and dirty fucking liars."-Louis C.K.

4/9/13

prn927:
Please tell me you are joking. Vince Young got a 6 on his Wonderlic! A 6!! A Majority of the players in the NFL, most of whom come from subpar schools, have a GPA of less than 3.0. And they take the easiest courses. So no, football players are not smart for the most part. Some may be (i.e. andrew luck and aaron rodgers), however, this clown is it.

These points have already been addressed earlier in the thread. The Wonderlic is just another standardized test. The only thing standardized tests can test for is booksmarts, which is not the only form of smarts. Go check what Dan Marino got on the Wonderlic. You're just being narrow-minded if you think he's dumb simply because of a test he took. You'd have to ignore his full body of work, as well, to come to that conclusion.

Also, another poster brought up this point and I think it's a good one -- the majority of college football players aren't interested in getting good grades. They'd rather spend their time working out, memorizing the playbook (I've seen a college playbook, too -- it was the size of a dictionary), and doing whatever else they can to improve their draft stock. The upside to this is significantly higher for them than hitting the (academic) books.

Of course, there are guys like Myron Rolle (inb4 he only went to FSU LOL), but he's an exception.

prn927:
Likening business to a kick return is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. Perhaps you should be an english major bud. All love.

You just took what I said completely out of context, but I'll elaborate on my point anyway. Do you think special teams plays are complete crapshoots? What the hell are special teams coaches good for anyways? Why was Jacoby Jones signed by the Baltimore front office from Houston? He's a lethal kick/punt returner, that's why. Baltimore identified a weakness in their team and took steps to improve upon it. Special teams are an oft-overlooked aspect of the game. It's very easy to draw a parallel to business from that, just like it's easy to draw parallels between The Art of War and business. Football is a form of warfare in its own way. You have to think outside the box a little, which is exactly what HBS is doing by admitting Foxworth. A homogenous MBA class does everyone a disservice.
4/9/13

design:
prn927:
Please tell me you are joking. Vince Young got a 6 on his Wonderlic! A 6!! A Majority of the players in the NFL, most of whom come from subpar schools, have a GPA of less than 3.0. And they take the easiest courses. So no, football players are not smart for the most part. Some may be (i.e. andrew luck and aaron rodgers), however, this clown is it.

These points have already been addressed earlier in the thread. The Wonderlic is just another standardized test. The only thing standardized tests can test for is booksmarts, which is not the only form of smarts. Go check what Dan Marino got on the Wonderlic. You're just being narrow-minded if you think he's dumb simply because of a test he took. You'd have to ignore his full body of work, as well, to come to that conclusion.

Also, another poster brought up this point and I think it's a good one -- the majority of college football players aren't interested in getting good grades. They'd rather spend their time working out, memorizing the playbook (I've seen a college playbook, too -- it was the size of a dictionary), and doing whatever else they can to improve their draft stock. The upside to this is significantly higher for them than hitting the (academic) books.

Of course, there are guys like Myron Rolle (inb4 he only went to FSU LOL), but he's an exception.

prn927:
Likening business to a kick return is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. Perhaps you should be an english major bud. All love.

You just took what I said completely out of context, but I'll elaborate on my point anyway. Do you think special teams plays are complete crapshoots? What the hell are special teams coaches good for anyways? Why was Jacoby Jones signed by the Baltimore front office from Houston? He's a lethal kick/punt returner, that's why. Baltimore identified a weakness in their team and took steps to improve upon it. Special teams are an oft-overlooked aspect of the game. It's very easy to draw a parallel to business from that, just like it's easy to draw parallels between The Art of War and business. Football is a form of warfare in its own way. You have to think outside the box a little, which is exactly what HBS is doing by admitting Foxworth. A homogenous MBA class does everyone a disservice.

You're right there are many types of "smarts". Unfortunately the types of smarts that most athletes have are only viable in their respective sport or on the battlefield. Of course there are exceptions, but there is a reason why you see so many athletes broke. Often through silly investments. Probably not the norm, but they have a much higher probability of frittering away they fortunes than the wealthy in other occupations (perhaps actors/singers being on par with them). Nothing against Vince Young, but I expect a 6 on the wonderlic could easily be outdone by the majority of 4th and perhaps 3rd grade students in this country. I believe a 24-26 is kind of the target for quarterbacks. So perhaps a 20 or even 15 could be considered just a one off or indicate that the guy isn't a good test taker. A 6 though is certainly full retard. Truth is that a lot of athletes will do well in their post NFL careers. It just won't be in any type of financial role outside of sales. I'm not hating on any of these guys either, in fact I'm surely the most athletic person that posts on WSO. I just chose to take the higher road. Anyways, if you're ever in a position to manage money I would encourage you to take your own advice and hire these subpar test takers as analysts.... just please make sure you let me know beforehand though, I'd really like to be on the other side of those trades ;) Goodnight freakshow!

4/10/13

design:
prn927:
Please tell me you are joking. Vince Young got a 6 on his Wonderlic! A 6!! A Majority of the players in the NFL, most of whom come from subpar schools, have a GPA of less than 3.0. And they take the easiest courses. So no, football players are not smart for the most part. Some may be (i.e. andrew luck and aaron rodgers), however, this clown is it.

These points have already been addressed earlier in the thread. The Wonderlic is just another standardized test. The only thing standardized tests can test for is booksmarts, which is not the only form of smarts. Go check what Dan Marino got on the Wonderlic. You're just being narrow-minded if you think he's dumb simply because of a test he took. You'd have to ignore his full body of work, as well, to come to that conclusion.

Also, another poster brought up this point and I think it's a good one -- the majority of college football players aren't interested in getting good grades. They'd rather spend their time working out, memorizing the playbook (I've seen a college playbook, too -- it was the size of a dictionary), and doing whatever else they can to improve their draft stock. The upside to this is significantly higher for them than hitting the (academic) books.

Of course, there are guys like Myron Rolle (inb4 he only went to FSU LOL), but he's an exception.

prn927:
Likening business to a kick return is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. Perhaps you should be an english major bud. All love.

You just took what I said completely out of context, but I'll elaborate on my point anyway. Do you think special teams plays are complete crapshoots? What the hell are special teams coaches good for anyways? Why was Jacoby Jones signed by the Baltimore front office from Houston? He's a lethal kick/punt returner, that's why. Baltimore identified a weakness in their team and took steps to improve upon it. Special teams are an oft-overlooked aspect of the game. It's very easy to draw a parallel to business from that, just like it's easy to draw parallels between The Art of War and business. Football is a form of warfare in its own way. You have to think outside the box a little, which is exactly what HBS is doing by admitting Foxworth. A homogenous MBA class does everyone a disservice.

I get where you are coming from. I am an avid football fan and the Ravens are my team. My point was that any high school student can draw parallels between football and business. I agree diversity is needed, and I'm sure you would agree that the HBS class would be very diverse, even without this player's presence.
4/10/13

prn927:
design:
prn927:
Please tell me you are joking. Vince Young got a 6 on his Wonderlic! A 6!! A Majority of the players in the NFL, most of whom come from subpar schools, have a GPA of less than 3.0. And they take the easiest courses. So no, football players are not smart for the most part. Some may be (i.e. andrew luck and aaron rodgers), however, this clown is it.

These points have already been addressed earlier in the thread. The Wonderlic is just another standardized test. The only thing standardized tests can test for is booksmarts, which is not the only form of smarts. Go check what Dan Marino got on the Wonderlic. You're just being narrow-minded if you think he's dumb simply because of a test he took. You'd have to ignore his full body of work, as well, to come to that conclusion.

Also, another poster brought up this point and I think it's a good one -- the majority of college football players aren't interested in getting good grades. They'd rather spend their time working out, memorizing the playbook (I've seen a college playbook, too -- it was the size of a dictionary), and doing whatever else they can to improve their draft stock. The upside to this is significantly higher for them than hitting the (academic) books.

Of course, there are guys like Myron Rolle (inb4 he only went to FSU LOL), but he's an exception.

prn927:
Likening business to a kick return is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. Perhaps you should be an english major bud. All love.

You just took what I said completely out of context, but I'll elaborate on my point anyway. Do you think special teams plays are complete crapshoots? What the hell are special teams coaches good for anyways? Why was Jacoby Jones signed by the Baltimore front office from Houston? He's a lethal kick/punt returner, that's why. Baltimore identified a weakness in their team and took steps to improve upon it. Special teams are an oft-overlooked aspect of the game. It's very easy to draw a parallel to business from that, just like it's easy to draw parallels between The Art of War and business. Football is a form of warfare in its own way. You have to think outside the box a little, which is exactly what HBS is doing by admitting Foxworth. A homogenous MBA class does everyone a disservice.

I get where you are coming from. I am an avid football fan and the Ravens are my team. My point was that any high school student can draw parallels between football and business. I agree diversity is needed, and I'm sure you would agree that the HBS class would be very diverse, even without this player's presence.

Have you ever taken he wonderlic? I don't understand how anyone can get 6 correct. One question gave 4 dates and asked which one occurred first!!! How is that a measure of "book-smarts"! It is common sense. I know Marino got a 6 on his and still had a HOF career. He is an anomaly.

4/9/13

Someone once told me that HBS admits people who do not really need the degree. If getting into HBS would be the greatest thing to ever happen to you, chances are, you will not get in. This is why Foxworth got it. He does not need it. It is just another feather in his cap.

4/9/13

Norm MacDonald Voice: You know who gets into Harvard Business School? Professional athletes who are Presidents of Player Associations.

Doesn't seem too hard to comprehend.

"That dude is so haole, he don't even have any breath left."

4/9/13

WSO is a funny place, people complaining about a professional athlete who isn't retarded about getting into a school that just loves name recognition is ridiculous. So his GMAT sucks why does that matter to Harvard? Harvard needs him not the other way around as has been said so many times in this thread. I'm willing to bet that a higher % of pro athletes that apply to HBS would get relative to GS employees.

The answer to your question is 1) network 2) get involved 3) beef up your resume 4) repeat -happypantsmcgee

WSO is not your personal search function.

4/10/13

Foxworth is an obvious admit. I don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

But, how did Vince Young enter this conversation? Vince is clearly mentally handicapped, all you have to do is listen to the guy speak and look at some of his decisions to understand this. To argue that he is smart is just building an argument and getting married to your thesis. He's an idiot. That being said, Vince Young played the single best game of football I have ever seen a few years ago in the college National Championship a few years ago for Texas against USC. He should have won the Heisman. I hope he can make a comeback this year.

4/10/13

The negative comments about his score are just downright idiotic and shows that 1. You don't work on the street or MBB and 2. You will never get into a top B school, work on the street or get into MBB and most importantly, 3. You've never played on a competitive, organized sports team.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows why HBS and other top B schools salivate at candidates from athletics and military.

Leadership, composure, team before self, dedication, excellence and decisiveness. These are just some of the traits exhibited by athletes and ex military. Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

4/10/13

IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, he's your stereotypical "dumb jock". Foxworth clearly isn't. He probably didn't even put much effort (any?) into GMAT prep because he knew that he was an auto admit.

Someone earlier made a great point that if HBS will end up being the greatest thing that ever happened to you, then you'll likely get dinged. These B-schools are all about branding. I found out the other day that Tyra Banks also went to HBS. I don't even want to know what her GMAT is-she was already a mini mogul before matriculating

4/10/13

TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, he's your stereotypical "dumb jock". Foxworth clearly isn't. He probably didn't even put much effort (any?) into GMAT prep because he knew that he was an auto admit.

Someone earlier made a great point that if HBS will end up being the greatest thing that ever happened to you, then you'll likely get dinged. These B-schools are all about branding. I found out the other day that Tyra Banks also went to HBS. I don't even want to know what her GMAT is-she was already a mini mogul before matriculating

Tyra Banks didn't get an MBA, what Banks attended was a non-degree-granting certificate course at Harvard called the Owner/President Management Program. The O.P.M. has "no formal educational requirements" for would-be "clients" (the program doesn't refer to attendees as "students") and its classes do not count towards any university degree or qualification. It's taught in three three-week units and currently costs clients $33,000 per unit. The application form does not have a space for applicants to list their GMAT scores -- it doesn't require any, because it's not a graduate program.

4/10/13

TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.

4/10/13

IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.


Stop. When you include Vince Young in the same sentence as Foxworth, you demean Foxworth. VY is clearly an idiot, Foxworth is not. The NFLPA would have never allowed Vince Young to negotiate for them. Not in a billion years.
4/10/13

SirTradesaLot:
IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.


Stop. When you include Vince Young in the same sentence as Foxworth, you demean Foxworth. VY is clearly an idiot, Foxworth is not. The NFLPA would have never allowed Vince Young to negotiate for them. Not in a billion years.

Stop. I never mentioned VY in the same breath as Foxworth. ;-)
4/10/13

IvyLeagueVet:
SirTradesaLot:
IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.


Stop. When you include Vince Young in the same sentence as Foxworth, you demean Foxworth. VY is clearly an idiot, Foxworth is not. The NFLPA would have never allowed Vince Young to negotiate for them. Not in a billion years.

Stop. I never mentioned VY in the same breath as Foxworth. ;-)

So can we all just come to agreement that Vince Young is a bumbling jackass and just close the thread down already lol

4/10/13

IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.

This is why wall street is filled with people who don't understand the products they sell. The sales staff are great at selling, but have no understanding of what they are selling. Hustle/working hard alone is not sufficient to make you a valuable worker.

You need a balanced set of qualities in the people you hire. Intelligence is a great quality because it signals that someone is a quick learner. You also need to ensure that the person is dedicated and motivated to learn.

Hiring stupid people is never a good thing. Working hard can be "learned." Intelligence is innate unfortunately.

making a one eight zero.

4/10/13

Caveman77:
IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.

This is why wall street is filled with people who don't understand the products they sell. The sales staff are great at selling, but have no understanding of what they are selling. Hustle/working hard alone is not sufficient to make you a valuable worker.

You need a balanced set of qualities in the people you hire. Intelligence is a great quality because it signals that someone is a quick learner. You also need to ensure that the person is dedicated and motivated to learn.

Hiring stupid people is never a good thing. Working hard can be "learned." Intelligence is innate unfortunately.


And those people selling keep on selling because they have a book of business and generate revenue.

We can debate semantics endlessly, but it's preposterous to presume that someone is going to hire a stupid person. Most importantly, if I'm choosing someone for a repetitive 14 hour a day job that requires meticulous attention to detail and teamwork, it makes sense to favor someone who has done that his/her entire life and at a level exceeding 99.9% of the world.

I think high level athletics and the military are better breeding grounds for high finance than academia.

4/10/13

IvyLeagueVet:
Caveman77:
IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.

This is why wall street is filled with people who don't understand the products they sell. The sales staff are great at selling, but have no understanding of what they are selling. Hustle/working hard alone is not sufficient to make you a valuable worker.

You need a balanced set of qualities in the people you hire. Intelligence is a great quality because it signals that someone is a quick learner. You also need to ensure that the person is dedicated and motivated to learn.

Hiring stupid people is never a good thing. Working hard can be "learned." Intelligence is innate unfortunately.


And those people selling keep on selling because they have a book of business and generate revenue.

We can debate semantics endlessly, but it's preposterous to presume that someone is going to hire a stupid person. Most importantly, if I'm choosing someone for a repetitive 14 hour a day job that requires meticulous attention to detail and teamwork, it makes sense to favor someone who has done that his/her entire life and at a level exceeding 99.9% of the world.

I think high level athletics and the military are better breeding grounds for high finance than academia.

Do you read what you type before you post? Thank god you don't speak for all of finance. There is a reason most entry-level finance jobs require such strong academics - you clearly don't grasp the reasoning.

Being successful at one activity does not imply you will be successful at something else.

making a one eight zero.

4/10/13

Caveman77:
IvyLeagueVet:
Caveman77:
IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.

This is why wall street is filled with people who don't understand the products they sell. The sales staff are great at selling, but have no understanding of what they are selling. Hustle/working hard alone is not sufficient to make you a valuable worker.

You need a balanced set of qualities in the people you hire. Intelligence is a great quality because it signals that someone is a quick learner. You also need to ensure that the person is dedicated and motivated to learn.

Hiring stupid people is never a good thing. Working hard can be "learned." Intelligence is innate unfortunately.


And those people selling keep on selling because they have a book of business and generate revenue.

We can debate semantics endlessly, but it's preposterous to presume that someone is going to hire a stupid person. Most importantly, if I'm choosing someone for a repetitive 14 hour a day job that requires meticulous attention to detail and teamwork, it makes sense to favor someone who has done that his/her entire life and at a level exceeding 99.9% of the world.

I think high level athletics and the military are better breeding grounds for high finance than academia.

Do you read what you type before you post? Thank god you don't speak for all of finance. There is a reason most entry-level finance jobs require such strong academics - you clearly don't grasp the reasoning.

Being successful at one activity does not imply you will be successful at something else.


Pose that question to yourself. Success in academia does not translate to success in high finance. I guarantee athletes and veterans are more "success stories" % wise than academic superstars. Think about the analysts and associates who will quit after 2 years due to lack of dedication and composure.

I guarantee you that most desks would take an athlete or a vet over an academic any day of the week. Ask around and you will grasp the reasoning very quickly.

We can go back and forth, but you're attempt to belittle me is pathetic. Agree to disagree because the same reasoning you're using for your argument is the same I'm using.

4/10/13

IvyLeagueVet:
Caveman77:
IvyLeagueVet:
Caveman77:
IvyLeagueVet:
TheGrind:
IvyLeagueVet:
Give me a combat vet or an Div 1 athlete over a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm any day of the week.

So long as it isn't Vince Young that is, lol Between that Wonderlic, his inability to articulate, and his disastrous handling of his own personal finances, you'd probably want to alter this sentence a bit to "give me a SMART combat vet or D1 athlete...". Minor quibble but just saying


I bet you're one of those that applies general statements, where the inference is obvious to SMART people and applies them to everything.

If VY provided a believable pitch for his candidacy, I'd still take him over many others. Why? He has the work ethic and dedication to become great. Becoming a successful Div fball star, let alone a professional athlete is much harder and exponentially more rare than a 4.0 Ivy League bookworm.

This is why wall street is filled with people who don't understand the products they sell. The sales staff are great at selling, but have no understanding of what they are selling. Hustle/working hard alone is not sufficient to make you a valuable worker.

You need a balanced set of qualities in the people you hire. Intelligence is a great quality because it signals that someone is a quick learner. You also need to ensure that the person is dedicated and motivated to learn.

Hiring stupid people is never a good thing. Working hard can be "learned." Intelligence is innate unfortunately.


And those people selling keep on selling because they have a book of business and generate revenue.

We can debate semantics endlessly, but it's preposterous to presume that someone is going to hire a stupid person. Most importantly, if I'm choosing someone for a repetitive 14 hour a day job that requires meticulous attention to detail and teamwork, it makes sense to favor someone who has done that his/her entire life and at a level exceeding 99.9% of the world.

I think high level athletics and the military are better breeding grounds for high finance than academia.

Do you read what you type before you post? Thank god you don't speak for all of finance. There is a reason most entry-level finance jobs require such strong academics - you clearly don't grasp the reasoning.

Being successful at one activity does not imply you will be successful at something else.


Pose that question to yourself. Success in academia does not translate to success in high finance. I guarantee athletes and veterans are more "success stories" % wise than academic superstars. Think about the analysts and associates who will quit after 2 years due to lack of dedication and composure.

I guarantee you that most desks would take an athlete or a vet over an academic any day of the week. Ask around and you will grasp the reasoning very quickly.

We can go back and forth, but you're attempt to belittle me is pathetic. Agree to disagree because the same reasoning you're using for your argument is the same I'm using.

I suspect that you may actually be Vince Young in disguise with ramblings like this. You make no sense whatsoever......... all the analysts who quit after 2 years due to lack of dedication and composure........ how about all the high school and college athletes who do the same??? I tell you what I'll pass on the next John Paulson/David Einhorn/Kyle Bass, etc. to have a shot to bring aboard Rasheed Wallace or Metta World Peace! Get real, it's one thing to make an argument that a guy with a 570 is a no brainer for Harvard, you however managed to take it to a whole new level of stupidity.

4/10/13