Non-Traditional Background - How'd you get your foot in the door?
I'm a junior at a non-target (3.96 GPA, Honors Finance Program, Double major in Finance & RE w/ honors concentration) and I only got 4 first-round interviews during recruitment. Two of which required some dumb luck because I just applied through the company Website. One was w/ a BB (GS/ML/JPM), got a superday, no offer after the first-choice accepted. Second was PE (BX/KKR), no superday.
Most of the kids in my program have already placed. The ones still waiting for offers have had 15-20 first round interviews.
This is my second year at this school (did 2 years at a JUCO) and I think I'm not getting many shots because I haven't been tracking towards IB since HS. I grew up blue-collar and didn't know what investment banking was until 2 years ago. My resume prior to transferring reflects that. I had a good internship w/ a RE investment group last summer, but feel like nothing I do is going to matter if I can't get my foot in the door.
I'm networking as best I can and trying to position myself for FT next, but am trying to decide if IB is a path worth sticking with, or if what I do is largely irrelevant because I was shoveling asphalt and hustling cards while the kids I'm competing w/ were building their IB resumes.
Is it worth sticking w/? If so, what should I do? I feel like I'm 20 years behind kids in the same program that I'm beating in the classroom.
Lol get out of here with that "I didn't know what investment banking was until 2 years ago", I didn't know what IB was until December of my junior year and still got into a BB for FT. And I was a non-target just like you, in a non-finance major, with a lower GPA.
Put your nose to the grindstone and network your ass off. Clearly your credentials are in line, but it appears you did 0 networking because otherwise you would've have 15-20 first rounds like everyone else in your program. There are 50 threads you can find about networking - use them.
Came here to say this. I have a background that is no more impressive than yours and I made it in, so stop feeling sorry for yourself.
Bro didn't you say you went to a top 50 school? While that isn't a "target" that is still a good school for the rest of America and will have some semblance of an alumni network, maybe even an ib club like IU. I won't go into the semantics of your family connections to ib because it is not necessary nor contributes to the discussion. He could be going to some school in the middle of fucking Kansas that nobody has ever heard of and has ZERO alumni or family connections. The fact of the matter is that these firms hire a very small amount of people and limiting yourself to BBs and MF PE roles is completely ridiculous. I think chasing prestige is very dangerous for non-targets. Why not hit up HL, WB. Jefferies, etc. too? There's more to life than working at a BB.
If he's interested in RE (username) then it makes sense to look at other roles than investment banking.
BillBelichick37 I think you may have interpreted something different from what I had wrote. Even if OP goes to an ultra non-target, it doesn't dilute my point, if anything it enhances it. I think you misinterpreted me saying "Networking" as "reach out to more alumni". I personally got my BB job through cold emailing non-alumni I had no connection to, so I don't see why OP couldn't do the same instead of saying "Fuck it, my destiny is predetermined because I grew up blue collar".
Note that my point also did not say "Chase BB jobs only" as you seem to have implied. In fact, I have said in many interviews exactly what you said, that chasing prestige is overrated. My point was to say if I can network my way to a BB job at a non-target with less credentials, OP can certainly at least get to a MM or reputable non-EB boutique. I agree with you - there are a breadth of opportunities they can pursue
what dalai said, im a non target with a terrible gpa (3.4), (i work full time) out of the 200+ emails ive sent ive gotten 10 contacts at bb's who where willing to help me. Non-target doesn't mean your excluded from IB it just means your going to have to work a bit harder
Second this. I just received a BB SA offer with really solid experience but a rather low GPA and came from a non-target. Networking is literally everything and whether or not you start early really only matters now if you were a freshman (and you're not).
Cannot reiterate how important it is to reach out far and wide - I sent probably ~400 emails by the time I had my offer. Just think that someone somewhere else probably is doing more than you and use that to motivate yourself to network harder.
Try to cleanse your resume and tilt it toward valuation and corporate finance
What are some good ways to do this?
I'm sitting for CFA I next December, so I can try and work that in.
Should I ax the blue-collar stuff and go into detail about involvement in finance clubs?
Yes, but only if the finance club stuff isn't fluff BS
Also, I had far worse credentials than you and made it so keep at it. Look at MM banks that may still be recruiting in satellite offices or one-off scenarios. This will require more networking but they do pop up from time to time. after the recruiting cycle.
Honestly, the blue collar stuff on my resume took up an entire 20 minutes in one of my superday interviews because the interviewer had done similar stuff as a kid. I had a good bit of corporate finance and wealth management on my resume as well, but just left one of my part time jobs on there.
FYI, I go to a school that maybe sends 1 kid to a banking/trading role every year and I got a BB SA offer, so it can be done.
No interviewer wants to listen to a sob story. Be likable and impressive.
No shit.
I got superdays after 3 of the 4 interviews, no sob story.
Point of the OP is not to complain. I genuinely want to know what steps guys who weren't initially on the IB trajectory took to land in IB.
Doesn't sound like you did much networking. Might want to work on that.
No doubt this is true.
How plausible is it to network into a BB/EB (my school has a good amount of kids at the latter) for FT w/out an IB SA gig junior year?
Or is the there more optionality in focusing on GPA more than FT recruiting, shooting for a top-tier MBA (Thinking Harvard 2-for-2, maybe a Wharton MSF) and essentially giving it another crack with a blank slate and an Ivey on the resume?
Depends on what you want. If you have solid finance experience on your resume besides IB, you can attempt to network for FT positions (seeing as you have an adequate alumni base as well), although be warned that FT recruiting is more competitive due to less positions being available, so a complete lack of IB experience will hurt you. You could try to get a boutique internship before graduation.
An MBA is also a good option, but you'll have a harder time recruiting for buyside positions, since you'll be joining as an associate most likely.
Although I would guess a lot of users on this site would disagree with me, I think you're on the right track with the CFA. I can only speak to my own experience, but I had similar stats as you. Decent but largely non-target undergrad, solid grades (though not in the honors program), good but not 'blue chip' internships. Really silver/bronze across the board. But after I passed level 1 the response rate to any entry level job I applied to increased by at least 4x, including IB programs. Even though CFA is meant for Equity Research and Asset Management, it at least guaranteed HR and interviewers that I knew something about finance and could apply myself if needed. The catch is that you really do need to pass the exam though. Just being a level 1 candidate means nothing.
Do take my recommendation with a grain of salt however, as you may be better off just using the extra time you do have to network. Also, contrary to popular belief, IB is not the be-all-end-all. Depending on the alternative career, you may even have a better shot at top MBA programs relative to your IB peers.
Huge underrated point I think a lot of us miss until it works out: the whole thing is a numbers game man. Your friends have already placed, not because they’re magically better at finance or interviewing, but because they got an offer after their 10th superday or whatever. Keep your head up, reach out to people who have no idea you exist, build your network of people willing to vouch for you, get a million interviews and it will work out.
Breaking into IB as a non-traditional candidate? (Originally Posted: 07/30/2017)
(London-based)
————————————— TL;DR: Application suited for consultancy wants to break into IB, whats the best way to do this as an MSc strategy postgraduate? —————————————
Hi everyone, I am currently finishing up an MSc in Strategy and Innovation from a non-target Russell Group University. My undergraduate is a First in Management, and I have done an internship with a small-time consultant, but I’m interested in moving to CorpFin/M&As.
I really did not know what I wanted to do after my undergrad, so I took on a master's degree, I knew I wanted to go into consulting or IB, but I wasn’t accepted for the finance-based course I applied for. With that being said, I’d like to access IB as early as possible rather than set myself too deep into consulting.
My long term goal is PE/HF which I would likely aim to achieve by lateraling after attending a US B-School (T15 would be my targets).
However, I am wondering how to get my initial start in IB/CorpFin? Would my profile be too non-traditional to secure internships (especially after a postgrad degree?).
My living situation is comfortable ATM, and I can afford to spend a few months networking, potential unpaid internships, or in training if that would benefit my chances. I also have a few pending consultancy applications and have rejected one offer (abysmal compensation and excessive contract lock in).
All in all, I guess I’m wondering what my best way to break into IB is, as a non-traditional applicant? I am willing to do all of the groundwork in order to grasp financial models, improve my excel skills, and learn the IB way of doing things.
Thanks in advance for any help!
I suggest tapping into your alumni network and just cold-calling/emailing. There are many threads on this forum that focus specifically on non target recruiting and you could apply those tips to your situation. I do think you need to get a relevant internship under your belt to show you're serious about the change as well, and use your free time networking and learning on your own.
Thanks for your reply. I am definitely looking to secure an internship as a way to get in - will this be difficult as a nontraditional candidate or will they be more open than full-time positions generally speaking?
I have connected to some alumni on LinkedIn recently, but they are few and far between, I have a few months so I think I will approach this from a long-game angle.
In terms of self-study, I read about a course that many BBs make analysts take - Wall Street Prep - would it be beneficial to my application to undertake this myself or would it be overkill?
Thanks again for your help. James.
I would think they would be more open simply because it is an internship position which is really meant to be a learning experience. Also don't think it would be overkill to take a course, if anything it should help show your interest and willingness to learn
Thanks for the advice. In that case, I will probably try to secure an internship at a local boutique.
I have an upcoming assessment centre for a tier 2 consulting firm, I was thinking to go through with that for a year or two in order to help me lateral into IB, do you think that would be more beneficial to my application than internships over the same period? I suppose it is more stable employment at least.
How to break into IBD from a non traditional background (the real essentials) (Originally Posted: 08/11/2012)
Well here I am, at it again giving back my two cents for the whole dollar I got from this great website.
A few people know my background and for those who do not; here is the Reader's Digest version. I am a former business owner who lost his business thanks to the small business credit freeze back in 2009. Watching the news and the bailout buzz made me realize I was in the wrong business. So I took to the big city in search of a better education, got me an internship at a BB from some connections I have and wound up dropping out of school because finance is not rocket surgery, I met an investment banker who took me under his wing. He came out of retirement after his wife took him to the cleaners with a divorce.
Working at a small shop of about 60 people I learned the ins and outs of this great wonderful world of adding salt and pepper to valuations of growth companies looking for money and then presenting said companies to the so called "buy-side". I saw four deals go to fruition of which only two of the companies actually have a chance of some day becoming a great blue chip company which I will tell my grandchildren how I was the BSD who took the company where it is today!
After getting to see how much the sales & trading division monkeys are making I decided to make the jump to the S&T business. With my Engineering background I became an Ideal candidate (any @$$hole could do what I do as the software is really the one doing the work). I have gone head to head with the biggest names on the street trading treasury bonds leveraged out of the wazzooooo (do I see 8 zeros?) to only take a few tics here and there (made a ton and lost more than you will ever see in your bank account).
So here I am this week Interviewing with three of the biggest names on the street for a VP position in Asset Management. I will tell you how to get to where I am today taking the less traveled road and bending all of the rules which those who came before me set forth.
RULE #1 Is that YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!
RULE #2 Move to New York ASAP (or a major financial hub) you will not get anywhere behind a computer in east hackachaweea, Iowa.
RULE#3 Get a job at a bank I don't give a crap if you start out as a teller, the fact of the matter is that you need an income if you move to NYC to live on and get out there and network your ass off which leads me to ..
RULE#4 Network your life away, Join match.com and date finance girls (girls will always be willing to help and pass your resume along as long as you pipe them right), go to networking events (you will meet idiots most of the time but you never know, roll deep with girls when you go to a club and TRADE those girls against a banker contact (I've gotten bankers laid and it has helped my career in ways you can not imagine. Go to wine tasting events and meet people if you have a network of high net worth people it makes things easier.
RULE #5 Always be honest. Do not lie to people on what you do people as they will remember you for being genuine.Tell them your story and what you want to accomplish, people will respect the fact that you left your inbreeding family back in Iowa to fulfill your dream of being a BSD on Wall Street. (Always ask for a business card and to stay in touch)
RULE #6 If you can not get into the Big leagues in your first try perhaps you should do what I did and go into a MM bank or a no name bank with a decent workforce. I have read about many people here who go for the no salary let me suck some bankers penis and hope someday he will pay me option. DEMAND A SALARY! IF THEY CAN'T PAY YOU ONE Daddy in Iowa will whoop you.
RULE #7 (One of the most important) Be humble, be ruthless and never let anyone talk down to you.
Remember... STEVE JOBS was a college drop out and he didn't know shit about computers (except for some basic electronics). Capitalize on other people and their talents. Be an outgoing individual and always make people smile. It will come back to you in Spades.
I swear by Rule #4 especially this part: "roll deep with girls when you go to a club and TRADE those girls against a banker contact (I've gotten bankers laid and it has helped my career in ways you can not imagine.)"
People don't know how important sex is and most bankers (nerdy ones) can't get laid with quality girls. Personally I run my own ass-book that I trade with my contacts (junior levels below VP) for both men and women. It works like a charm.
To further validate OP's points, here is my viewpoints on networking:
People are motivated by different things so you need to know what they want. In order to know what they want, you need to spend more time with them. Perhaps, someone of them have family members who want to get a job at XYZ firm. Some want to run for office and need campaign contribution. Some of them love PETA and they want to support that cause. Some just want to have a good time around town. I don't consider them as bribing. It's called networking. Networking is where you position yourself to be useful to others while getting what you want from them. It is an alliance, pooling of resources and trading for what you want.
So my answer is yes. 50K can get you into good schools, at least six figures job, pass to the most exclusive clubs and the hottest chicks in town. You just need to consciously think of who you need to know and what you need to do, to get to where you want to go. Having friends in higher places never hurt. The biggest question is "what are you bringing to the table that they are willing to go out there to take a bet on you?" That my friend is a million dollar question worth considering and thinking about.
While making my break into Wall Street, I networked with more than 600+ people. Everyone of them are concerned with three things: 1) Money, 2) Relationship and 3) Others.
1) Money means career and financial issues. If you can figure out a way to be useful to them: introducing them to the right people, helping them with chores, and be selectively generous, you will get ahead. This is mainly true for analyst and associate levels.
2) Relationship. Everyone have relationship issues mostly junior guys. Guys with money want more women. Women with money want to get married. Older guys want to get married. If you can be the social butterfly who can bring people together, you will have the "social asset" that you can leverage upon. No one is going to hate you for helping them with their relationship issues. This applies to all levels, mainly unmarried people.
3) Other. I put everything else that doesn't apply to those two categories above. It is because people who already have Money and Relationship are looking for something else. They want to feel different. They want to enjoy life. If you can help them develop interest: Photography, Wine Tasting, Fashion or help them with Personal Development, and being useful to them, no one is going to blow you off.
The 3rd item also applies to people in higher positions like the MD, and the Partner levels. They already got everything they want in life. Most of them want to make a difference in the world and they like mentoring younger kids. If they can relate to you with your under-dog story, they are willing to vouch for you. And as a mentee, your must pledge your loyalty towards them, take their advice seriously and show progress in your own career. That is showing your respect and that is the only way to win them over.
I have never met anyone who is 100% happy with their lives. There is always areas that they want to improve. The key is to quickly figure out what is keeping them awake at night. What do they want? Stop thinking of what you want and try to help them to get what they want. That is my friend, the ultimate way to influence people, win them over and the key to building a power-base for yourself.
I have found this to be the most useful piece of advice in my short career. After you get to a certain age and have a certain amount of money, people look for other outlets that money can't buy. Having hobbies outside of staring at an excel model for 12 hours a day pays huge dividends when you get an opportunity to show a higher-up a good time.
I never thought about it like that, but rule no. 4 or the ass-book is best advice I have received so far.
This thread is great.
+1
Love it! Thanks for the advice, Barboone & sxh6321! :)
worst thread of 2012 (srs)
Let me see if I understand. Basically, move to New York and become a pimp to financiers and you will be able to become a financier as well? If pimping doesn't work, then become a teller?
This is a great thread- thank you for sharing this you guys. I fee like some people learn these kinds of lessons the hard way, or never learn at all.
Especially Human, your view on networking is right to the point- I was talking to Keith (the guy who wrote Never Eat Alone) and it is absolutely essential that you figure out people's needs and help them with it.
wow. this isn't how life works at all kids.
Well he certainly got the 'non-traditional' part right.
Wow, this is incredible. One of the best threads I've ever read on this site.
If you are homo and know gay mds or vps then #4 is easy as hell. Trust me. I'm at a target in SF and intentionally seek out gay bankers on match.com and it's the easiest way to land interviews. I had 14 first round interviews and made it to 6 super days. I also want to add that if you aren't a true homosexual like I, you can pass off as one until you get a first round interview. Wait for super day, nail it, get the offer, delete your match.com profile and start rolling in money. I think ibanking is the one career where gays have an advantage. I can only say this works in SF. Maybe not so much in NY. Good luck all.
Advice Sought for Non-traditional Getting Into Consulting (Originally Posted: 07/31/2013)
Background:
I ended up turning down the PC and instead went to Latin America to do similar work but in a business setting (social development start up in the international commodities trade field). Present responsibilities include: finances & budgeting (over $1million in funding), strategy, research, marketing, IT, HR.
My situation: I don't plan on staying longer than next summer, and I'm really interested in management consulting. I never thought about business until after graduating and missed out on all the career services and OCR.
How realistic are my chances for MBB or tier 2 given my background? Any advice on how to prepare and the best way to begin? When is the best time to contact recruiters? As an out-of-school applicant, do I apply per office or generally?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Off topic but how did you get down there in the first place? I'm interested in doing something along the same lines.
PM me if need be.
I don't have enough banana points to PM. To answer your question, I came here to volunteer at an NGO, and they happened to just start this project. They approached me to join the team after learning about my background.
If you're interested in finance, there are also lot of microfinance NGOs in Latin America where you can intern or volunteer for a few months to a year at a time.
I'm in a similar situation and I've found that regardless of what the recruiters tell you it's going to take a lot of networking to get an interview. Start with alumni, then linkin groups with a shared interest then just cold emailing altogether. Good luck. Hopefully someone else can answer in more detail for you.
Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely start contacting alumni soon.
If you're more than a yr out of school, I don't think you can interview MBB. You would need to go the MBA route to get into their recruiting cycle. I could be wrong on this. For tier 2, you just need to network and get someone to refer you internally. Your background looks strong.
Yeah, getting from industry to MBB at the pre-MBA level is very tough. You can try applying in the standard fall recruiting season, but even if that's possible you'll only start in 2014. Most of the large consulting firms will have their 2013 start classes firmed up by now.
I'm looking to start next fall (2014); I'll be 3 years out of school by then. Looking at firms such as LEK, OW, ATK, Roland Berger, and Booz. Do they recruit people a few years out of school, pre-MBA?
Broke into Banking Recently, Happy to Answer Questions, Non-traditional background without a 3.5 GPA (Originally Posted: 08/17/2015)
Good afternoon all,
After pounding the pavement for more than half a year, I locked down a job as an Associate at a boutique in NYC . I came out of a no-name undergrad with a 3.0 and general business degree, then worked in Private Wealth for 2 years before returning to Business School (outside top 10, in top 25). I had BB or MM) and at a boutique M&A/IB shop in B-school.
Throughout my process I interviewed at 3 BB, 3 MMs, and a handful of boutiques.
A lot of content on here is very accurate, but there is obviously a lot of fluff too. You have to be lucky, patient, and very persistent. Above all else, you have to want it, and I mean really want it. Wake up every day trying to figure out how to better your technical, communication, and interview skills.
I would be more than happy to answer any specific questions fellow monkeys have.
Best.
-S
How competitive is post-MBA associate recruiting compared to undergrad analyst recruiting?
Do you have any practical tips on improving communication skills? I feel like that's the hardest out of the three to practice
I do not know. I didn't go through Analyst recruiting so I have nothing to measure against. To your second question, don't stop talking to people. Practice makes perfect. Start calling people you don't care or even want a job from, then once you feel comfortable with your story, explanations for various qualitative questions, move on to your target...think of it like warm-ups in sports, except you can control when you start playing...
SydViscous thanks for sharing your experiences. It seems that MBA is the only route (with exceptions of course) of making it into IBD.
I spoke to someone at a well known firm and he relayed similar advice in that either find a bigger bank that needs analysts or go get your MBA.
For me, I've worked in the O&G space for two years and am currently in a Business Development role where I am responsible for, among other initiatives, to source for potential M&A opportunities and to present those findings to upper management.
My goal was to leverage this experience (boutique or otherwise) in order to land an opportunity in IB. Seems to me that industry experience is just another bullet point and not something banks seem to care for.
Any advice?
I don't agree. I think it puts you ahead of someone who knows all of the BIWS/Vault answers because those guys just process information, not apply it. Working in the field means you know whats actually going on operationally - much more valuable. I know for a fact that Intrepid Partners (Skip McGee's new shop) was looking for people with all kinds of backgrounds including Bus Dev...Give them a call or start knocking on NatRes groups/boutiques.
It doesn't matter what shop you work for, it matters that it says "Investment Banking ___" on your resume. From that point, you can move up, down, or to the buy-side (yes, its MUCH harder to get PE from a boutique than a MM, or BB), but not at all impossible.
What do you mean by "boutique"? A place like Lazard, Evercore, or Moelis? Or a smaller shop?
Don't worry, one day you'll drink from the sweet sweet nectar that is Bulge Bracket Paradise.
Nice edit...
Wow, 12 Monkey Shits and counting..? Too soon? Was my sarcasm not sensed?
thanks for doing this, posting to the frontpage now
Thanks for doing this, and congratulations on breaking in. I find your story quite similar to mine, no name undergrad, few years of experience and a good but not top MBA program. I've just graduated and have been doing my best to network with bankers. I wanted to pick your brain on the networking part, is there a particular strategy or method you used to convert networking meetings/informational interviews into job interviews? So far I've had alot of positive encouragement, but more often than not ending with "send me your resume/keep in touch" conversations but haven't been able to convert anything so far. Any advice/thoughts?
TIA
*EDIT: I'm in Canada fyi
Buy a lucky rabbit's foot (seriously), it comes down to luck. I spoke to 400+ bankers since beginning my hunt. Everyone from Analyst 2's who got me interviews to ex-Heads of IBD USA at BBs who also got me interviews. The sad fact is that a lot of bankers are nervous, neurotic, pussies. Why should they stick their neck on the line for you if they have nothing to gain, and all to lose by recommending you? Make everyone LOVE you. Give examples that demonstrate you know how to work, your tone and clarity will tell them more about how sharp/confident you are than any canned Vault technical question. Do everything from talking to people, to sending your resume cold to firms with resume drops. You never know where it will come from, but if you push and grind, it will come.
Congrats on breaking in! Don't stop hustlin'
Thanks for doing this AMA!
Couple questions:
Thanks for doing the AMA! I'm in the exact situation you were in: an undergrad from a non-target school with
No PW internships, I actually had a buy-side internships in undergrad but when I came out the market had crashed so no one was hiring. PWM all you need to be able to do is talk, and frankly that is something that always came naturally to me.
thanks for sharing your experience, could you expand more on how you landed in your current role?
Thanks
I could talk for days...What can I answer specifically?
Kind of a random question, how much of an asset is programming in banking (not necessarily for quants, but people close to the money)? If you're good at it is it much easier to find a job?
It's not. I think knowing VBA at a basic/intermediate level is beneficial because excel does have limits, but at a high level it is not something to think twice about IMO.
To reiterate Sil's question, can you elaborate on what type of "boutique" you work at (i.e. EB, regional, industry-focused, etc.)
We are generalists, focus mostly on M&A in Consumer, Industrials and Tech, but do a fair amount of security issuances as well. 90% of what we do is domestic. Very relationship driven, not much pitching which kinda sucks from a learning perspective. Firm is just over 25 people in size.
Getting a job as an Entry Level Trader with non traditional experience (Originally Posted: 07/14/2013)
I have applied and applied
I graduated from Syracuse University with a degree in Finance and Entrepreneurship with a minor in Economics.
I have traded roughly 22 million dollars in securities, retail, across five different brokerage houses. I traded during the financial crisis and learned some extremely difficult lessons.
Prior to coming to Syracuse, I had a full time business which I started May 2005 in the parking lot of Wal-Mart Arizona which got to be 115 degrees during the summer. Three years later I had two girls working for me making 1000's of dollars a day in cash. I used this money to fund my account and pay for my college.
I graduated as an Honor's Scholar from Highline Community College taking 70% more honors classes than required.
I can't seem to get a job anywhere. I will relearn EVERYTHING, work 14 hour days Seriously save every penny to take company sponsored classes specializing in advanced quantitative finance, and get your coffee every day.
I only tell the honest truth. I have noticed a lot of people lie about their background and get jobs. I just don't have it in me to do that.
I just want a shot to get a foundation for my career.
What kind of trader position do you want? Because most of the time you need skills that you did not mention and most of the times you will never use the skills that you mention.
To be honest I would start in any position that gave me opportunity to learn either Sales & Trading, Investment Banking (Creating Markets Where my passion really would be), or Proprietary trading. Personally, I started out using fundamental analysis customizing advanced trading platforms to determine revenue drivers. I later moved into technical analysis. This was complimented by taking 365+ days worth of data and compiling it using excel and mini tab to build regression models.
I had a small sunglasses business which I ran in the Northwest while attending trade shows to expand my product line.
You bring up an interesting point. I have been seriously thinking about going to school to get my Master's in Computer Engineering, Software. Do you recommend this? Thanks too for the personal list! I applied to Jane Street awhile back, but didn't get an interview. I will look at the other companies though too :)
Okay, I applied to every job that you recommended. Thanks, do you have more recommendations?
Owh and besides that, I think Optiver is one of the best propshops around there. So you should try your very best!
Thanks, I feel the pressure ;) I don't know anything about options though.
Breaking In - Non-traditional background (Originally Posted: 09/17/2015)
Hey guys, I've been a lurker here for ~6 months but this is my first official post. Apologies if I'm posting in the wrong area or egregiously breaking any obvious rules.
I recently graduated in May from a liberal arts college in upstate New York that is non-target with a degree in International Business. I have some internship in the microfinance/fin-tech areas, but no direct banking internships. I have been dealing with some personal issues (my dad is very sick and I have been taking care of him) which is the main reason why I haven't been able to focus all my efforts on starting my career.
So, to my fellow monkeys, what is my best course of action to break into IB? I have been interviewing both informationally/formally at any opportunity presented to me, but unfortunately my sphere of contacts is limited and I don't know anyone in significant positions within the field of IB.
Obviously, BB is out of the question, so I think smaller shops are my best way to break-in. Other than that, any advice is greatly appreciated.
P.S I have been reading books about finance as well as taking the Wall St. Training self-study Basic & Fundamental, and Core & Fundamental concepts to stay sharp over the summer.
Find ppl at your schoold who work in IB and network through them and find recruiters name. Get them to make in into. Sometimes non target schools that yield solid candidates can become a good side door. So working through ppl from your school with a positive track record is a good place to start.
Uber Non-Traditional Success Story (Originally Posted: 05/04/2011)
6 months ago I joined this site looking for some insight into how I could turn around a voluntary unemployment situation and how to lateral into a entry level consulting gig. Between my very non traditional background/education, and diving headfirst into the ruthless pool that is this forum, I caught some flack, and a bunch of pointed and honest critiques but that led to some wholesome soul searching.
For those of you who helped this noob out on the resume forum, i thank you. I was definitely out of my typical "comfort zone" here and to be honest, im a firm believer that ALOT of the tips/news/advice carry over to worlds other than Banking/Consulting.
After pursuing entry level consulting gigs through contacts at Booz, PwC and some of the like, nothing really materialized past a 2nd interview. I went back to the drawing board, listened more and talked (typed) less.
I decided to completely re-tweak my resume after numerous PMs with some people here and decided to maybe merge my two passions of analysis/business and my background/education which is sports business. I know there are a bunch of you who assumed that my M.S. in sports business is "sports management aka gym teacher" and you couldnt be farther from the truth. But im not here to debate the merits of my degree.
With a WSO spin, I reworked everything from my strategy to applications and networking and found myself at a bunch of information sessions at some of the local business schools. I stumbled upon one that ESPN/Disney was showcasing internships for computer science and engineering kids... to say I was in over my head was an understatement. I worked the room assuming nothing would come of it but i struck a cord with a hiring manager for the Business Operations department. He gave me his card and after some of communication about jobs, sports and everything in between, he passed my stuff along to his bosses for a few openings.
After sticking with it, im lucky enough to be writing yet another success story, albeit a non IBD/Consulting one. I feel as if im lucky enough to be able to merge my two passions and found a psuedo "sports consulting gig" within an incredible company. Sure im not making IBD kind of salary, but im not crushing 100hrs a week. I found a stellar job, with amazing benefits and it couldnt be a better fit.
All in all, I just wanted to say thanks. As i stated before, alot of the advice on here (in terms of the job search) covers alot more than just this world. Im not a "everything happens for a reason" kind of guy... but I read Eddies "Tank a Bank" article in Playboy one day and it led me to this site. 6 months ago I was landscaping with my buddies father. Monday I start the new gig...
Thanks Patrick, Eddie and everyone who helped along the way...
"Sure im not making IBD kind of salary, but im not crushing 100hrs a week. I found a stellar job, with amazing benefits and it couldnt be a better fit."
Glad to hear your success and I share your sentiments in the quote above. To hell with prestige and "killing it". It's important to find what makes you happy and I'm sure you have some swag considering your triumph here. Congrats mate it would be great to see other members of WSO with the same humility and perspective that you have here.
Congrats man. I followed some of your other threads...and in typical WSO style, you got ripped to shreds for the resumes you had posted. While it was enjoyable reading the comments and I did laugh a little, I'm glad you made the best out of it.
I'm very intrigued by the type of role you were able to land. Any more details? PM me if you want.
Pdres, thanks for sharing the same sentiments. Much appreciated!
Mezz, i remember some of your comments and I thank you. Granted I got ripped apart, but apart from the over the top comments, alot of it was unbiased and pointed. Once we are able to weed through the crap, there are alot of gold nuggets to be offered... PM coming.
Seemed appropriate...
Congrats sir.
WOW! CONGRATS!!!
Working in sports anything is better than IB anywhere. You win. Congrats.
Congrats on getting a position you actually enjoy, don't hear enough about that on here.
Props!
I remember you! Congrats buddy.
non-traditional ways to get into "IB analyst programs" at BB (Originally Posted: 06/04/2010)
Can people maybe share their experiences or observations on people who join "analyst programs" at BB in IB....after they have graduated from undergrad. It seems like HR is quite strict on only hiring students currently enrolled in school, unless you are part of military/armed forces. ....its too late to apply to masters programs for '10-'11, too late for the internships, I don't want to wait 5 years to do an MBA ....what other ways can students get into analyst programs??? Is the only way through having a MD directly request an interview?? I'm hoping to hear some creative stories, or strategies to get in the "back door".
Did you just recently graduate because if so I don't know how true it is that HR only hires ppl out of undergrad. I go to a target and job prospects for outgoing seniors were almost as bad as last year precisely because the kids that graduated last year were competing for the same jobs.
I also don't think you should rule out boutiques in this job market. When the economy picks up, you can move into a BB or got the MBA route.
Non traditional, how to break in IB (Originally Posted: 08/01/2013)
Hello fellow monkeys, I have a few questions to ask and I would very much appreciate your input here.
I majored in economics in college(non-target due to small size, think about a good ranking liberal arts college in northeast) and went straight into a tech start-up after graduation. Nowadays it's not rare for IB analysts to join a well-funded start-up in business development function after a few years and from what I heard, most of them favor start-ups over banking; my founder was a persuasive banker, I thought I made a smart decision. I was wrong. I didn't really enjoy working in a less-structured environment and I certainly didn't feel I was progressing towards my goal. And the pay wasn't good because the business itself was not profitable. I lost my confidence in the company; so I took some time off to study financial valuation skills on my own in addition to the budgeting and accounting skills I used on the job.
I spoke to a recruiter who was in charge of on-campus recruiting at a BB and she advised me to look into boutique firms instead because I'm not qualified to apply analyst program and my skill sets are not enough for experienced banking analyst positions. I think she's right - I've tried to apply to some BB online but nothing has come up. I also talked to an alumnus who commented my resume "looks fine for sell-side; but chance to get in buy-side without banking experience is less than 5%".
Here are my questions and your valuable input are very much appreciated: 1) Networking - I started networking by sending out cold-emails to alumni and people I've met, asking for either informational interviews over the phone or their advices regarding my resume; it's going ok but I didn't know that many people in the industry(I went to a small school). What's the most efficient way to network without getting people annoyed? 2) Job search - I try to identify positions either on Linkedin or Indeed. After spotting a potential position that fits my background and interests, I will reach out to the people of the firm directly to follow up. It's not very efficient because, not all lateral hiring positions are advertised and also no response from cold-emailing should be expected for some firms where I have absolutely no contact. How should I modify my strategy in job search? 3) I am a little reluctant to settle for a master program other than MBA; however if my search is going nowhere, I probably would have no choice but to go to a master program to increase my odds. A friend suggested maybe I should just take classes at some grad school first and include the courses on my resume instead of going to a master program that I am unsure of. I think it's a good suggestion. But I'm still not convinced. Opinions?
A bit more about myself: college varsity player; two internships in college including summer analyst at a foreign private equity fund where I learned valuations skills for the first time and business development research analyst at a fortune500; leadership experience in student-run conferences etc.
Thank you very much for the input! I will update a list of top boutique firms in my mind later to share with fellow monkeys. I have to get this done and the slow progress is giving me insomnia.
Yeah, look at boutiques. You're chance of breaking into a BB at this point is non-existant.
Get a few years in at a boutique, figure out if you like the profession, then go from there.
Non-traditional Path - Do I have any hope? (Originally Posted: 07/07/2016)
Poked around these forums for a while, but finally decided to post.
I've decided to pursue a career in consulting, but unsure about my odds of actually being successful. I realize that MBB is way out of the question, but would like advice on my chances for anything else (in the Midwest or Southern regions). I have a non-target bachelors with a poor GPA and a non-target JD with a GPA that doesn't look great, but was in the top third of my class. Limited quant/business coursework, but I'll be starting an MBA program this fall. Given my family and work situations, I'll be getting my MBA online from a top 20 program (As an aside, this isn't a post to debate the merits of getting an MBA or if it is worth the investment. I had already decided I wanted the knowledge base that it will provide and have accepted I won't see returns for some time). As for work experience I've been a regulatory analyst for a $12B bank for the last 3 years, but have worked on some other projects outside of the regulatory realm.
I know I'm not a top tier candidate from the Ivy League, but any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
Would you pay yourself for advice?
1) Don't get the online MBA. For now, there is still a stigma of online degrees and the MBA is a good "reset" for your career so I would save it for later after you have more experience and then leverage the degree to get into a different/better job.
2) Since you have regulatory experience (and a JD) you should target compliance consulting firms/groups. There is a lot of growth in this area with AML and such and from what I see the entry requirements are fairly low/easy especially at smaller firms. Do a google search and look at boutiques that focus on financial services and compliance consulting.
Applying to firms w/ a non-traditional background (Originally Posted: 03/09/2010)
I'm really interested in pursuing a career in management consulting and am looking to start in an analyst position at a generalist firm. I graduated cum laude from an Ivy League with a 3.61 GPA and completed an honors thesis. However, I majored in a humanities subject and most of my off-terms were spent overseas on study-abroad or work-abroad programs. Therefore my practical business experience is pretty inadequate compared to my competitors. I did work two jobs throughout most of my college career, and the positions I held allowed me to cultivate many of the other qualities that make a good consultant.
My question is, in this tough economy, is it possible for me to transition into an analyst position without an internship at a good firm while I was an undergrad? I'm finding it tough to get a job period, let alone getting an interview for a consulting firm. I've been going about the networking avenue but it's a slow process. I feel like the world forgot about the '09 graduates!
Advice? Similar experiences?
What 2 jobs? I'll laugh my ass off if "the positions I held allowed me to cultivate many of the other qualities that make a good consultant" refers to research assistants, sales associates, or dining hall ppl.
At least from my personal experience and speaking with some of my friends, who are much more into consulting than I ever was, your background is pretty irrelevant. Obviously you need to be smart, motivated, etc. but the main thing is they want to see that your problem solving/teamwork abilities are strong. I was in touch with some people at MBB before I focused on banking, but just about everyone told me that getting an interview was almost exclusively on the basis of your GPA/SAT score and after that, it was just how well you interviewed.
More specifically, your humanities major isn't really a negative. Being an '09 grad and trying to get into a top consulting firm is probably a bit tougher than if you were going through OCR. I'd just work hard with the case interviews and maybe look at some smaller firms.
Good luck!
Entendu, thank you for the advice. Amz, no, those weren't my positions, but also don't diss people who do what they need to do to get by in these times. We all have our own path.
I have respect for those who take on these positions because of humble financial background. HOWEVER, those who take these jobs and say that these positions cultivated their skills for IB/MC/PE/HF/VC/ST, bring humiliation on to themselves
Non-Traditional in every way! (Originally Posted: 11/14/2014)
I've been lurking for a long time, but just recently decided to post. I've done a lot of research when it comes to finding the best ways to break into investment banking, but I only get bits and pieces that fit my story. I'm hoping that some of you more knowledgeable can help guide me here.
I feel like I have a ton of things to mention, so I'm just going to break down some key points:
Everything I've read has mentioned it's harder to break into investment banking as an older adult because of perceived family obligations, inability to take orders, etc... Will it really hurt me that bad? Do I need to pursue an MBA? Or will the fact that I'd be getting the MBA right out of undergrad be a problem?
If you need any other information then please ask! I appreciate the time in your replies!
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