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11/20/10

Hello I am senior in high school in ohio and am looking at smeal as a prospective college for me.
If I would end of going there I would like to join the PSIA and the nittany lion fund. i was wondering thought the website doesnt state how many people get accepted or rejected there. Does anybody have a clue on exactly how competitive it is to get into??
OSU isnt too good of a college in business but it is good enough to have something called the Fishers Futures program for investment banking and I was wondering how competitve that is?
University of Michigan was my first choice but I am not sure if i will be able to get into Ross, and might end up doing economics. If I dont they also have a club called the MIBC (michigan investment banking club) which is ment for all students at university of michigan.

I am looking at all of these as options but I feel as penn states Nittany lion fund isnt soo competitive if you are a freshman interested but if you are a junior then it becomes really hard.

Penn state's nittany lion fund sends 100% of their seniors to wall street, so does OSU fishers futures program, and so does University of Michigan ( even though it was just made 3 years ago)

and of course I am interested in investment banking and then prolly private equity after being an analyst. I have also read Rosenbaum's book: Investment banking ( recommended by the president of the MIBC), this sparked my interest for this career as well.

Thanks for all responses in advance!!

Comments (149)

11/29/10

case to case buddy...

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11/29/10

Jerome, you are correct, you did not directly insult everyone at PSU. I apologize. My mistake stemmed from the fact that just about all of your posts in this thread were insulting, flippant, and generalizations. You attack one person for posting his personal experience and then you turn around and post your own personal experiences. I skimmed your posts and disagreed with you.

Next time, act like an adult and address my error. Throwing out "non target" as if it is some sort of an insult is laughable. There are plenty of top schools that do not get IB recruiting. Even within top schools you can still be non target.

This thread is about Mich vs OSU vs PSU. My posts have always said that if you can get into Ross you should go. Everyone knows Ross is a better ranked and better recruited school. That being said, PSU has a huge network, with many on Wall Street. If you can get into Ross, do it. If not then go to PSU/OSU and do well.

11/29/10

Jerome is spot on. The thread starter obviously is EXTREMELY intent on getting into investment banking - what other high school kid would come on to this forum? Clearly, he places a school's ability to place him into investment banking firms at or near the top of his reasons to go somewhere.

With that fact in mind, the answer to his question is clear. Ross is FAR superior to the alternatives. Period. Even the other schools within UMich are superior to PSU and OSU. UMich is a internationally renowned school, with top 10 programs across nearly all academic fields, including economics and engineering. Even the econ and engineering departments in UMich certainly have better placement than PSU. Furthermore, it has the largest alumni network in the world.

To the people saying why does it matter, "end game to end game": Can you guys even read? It matters because the thread starter asked what school is best for IB.

Even if you don't end up wanting to pursue finance, UMich is a superior school. Even though it is a large public school, It is just simply at another level than PSU and OSU. On average, the kids are far smarter. Evidence: average SAT, ACT, High School GPA are all higher at UMich, and astronomically higher in Ross. At UMich, you will surrounded by more intelligent peers, recieve a better education, and have better job prospects. These facts are irrefutable. The ONLY reason to go to PSU is if you get a full ride there. Even still, if you want IB, its worth it to take out loans. The majority of people in Ross who want to get IB jobs get them. (Overall, placement is around 20-25%, but there are a ton of people here who do Marketing or some other bs, or take top consulting/corporate finance jobs. When you throw out all the people with under 3.5 (they clearly did not try very hard to maximize their job prospects), many of those who are left get IB jobs.)

In reply to latitude4310
11/29/10

latitude4310:
Jerome is spot on. The thread starter obviously is EXTREMELY intent on getting into investment banking - what other high school kid would come on to this forum? Clearly, he places a school's ability to place him into investment banking firms at or near the top of his reasons to go somewhere.

With that fact in mind, the answer to his question is clear. Ross is FAR superior to the alternatives. Period. Even the other schools within UMich are superior to PSU and OSU. UMich is a internationally renowned school, with top 10 programs across nearly all academic fields, including economics and engineering. Even the econ and engineering departments in UMich certainly have better placement than PSU. Furthermore, it has the largest alumni network in the world.

To the people saying why does it matter, "end game to end game": Can you guys even read? It matters because the thread starter asked what school is best for IB.

Even if you don't end up wanting to pursue finance, UMich is a superior school. Even though it is a large public school, It is just simply at another level than PSU and OSU. On average, the kids are far smarter. Evidence: average SAT, ACT, High School GPA are all higher at UMich, and astronomically higher in Ross. At UMich, you will surrounded by more intelligent peers, recieve a better education, and have better job prospects. These facts are irrefutable. The ONLY reason to go to PSU is if you get a full ride there. Even still, if you want IB, its worth it to take out loans. The majority of people in Ross who want to get IB jobs get them. (Overall, placement is around 20-25%, but there are a ton of people here who do Marketing or some other bs, or take top consulting/corporate finance jobs. When you throw out all the people with under 3.5 (they clearly did not try very hard to maximize their job prospects), many of those who are left get IB jobs.)

so you like the school huh? how long you been there? a year? two?

11/29/10

Great response. Any real points to make? What is one thing I said that is not true or not relevant?

11/29/10

Great response. Any real points to make? What is one thing I said that is not true or not relevant?

11/29/10

I didnt go to school there.. you did..

11/29/10
11/29/10
11/29/10

I sense some bitterness on your part towards the posts promoting UMich (i.e., giving the original poster the best and most relevant advice). Perhaps you are insecure about your school?

Look, no one is saying PSU is a bad school. Or that, ultimately, your school is the be all end all of where you end up in life. But a better school DOES give you advantages in certain things. Job recruitment is one of these. Wharton has better placement than Ross. Ross has better placement than PSU. PSU has better placement than community college.

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/29/10

Jerome Marrow:
It is funny here that none of you can even disagree with my points and go on irrational rants about shit I never even said.

My point(s):

-PSU is not a target, meaning there is extremely little to no on campus recruiting for FO positions in IB or S&T.
-It has relatively poor placement in finance compared to Ross and even UIndiana (perhaps even Wisconsin). This is related to above.
-People that do end up making it into a good finance gig from PSU, if not already having some intangible (ie good D1 athlete) or a strong connection to the street, have to work much harder than those of equal status at a different school (like Ross or somewhere else).
-There are nearly 6000 people at the undergrad business school--even if 10 or even 20 kids do make it into a FO high finance position (not true, but let's pretend that many did make it), that is quite poor placement relative to many other schools and those individuals likely would have made it from another more targeted school with substantially less hardship.

If your goal is finance, choosing PSU is like running a 100m race, but setting your blocks up 5m behind everyone else. It doesn't mean the end of the race, but it is sure a substantial handicap.

Your point(s):

-Nothing intelligible

In response to the 6,000 students in Smeal, the placement of students into high finance roles, is definitely not great, especially when compared to the likes of Ross. That being said, you also have to consider the number of students who actually WANT to work on Wall Street. As a student here, there are a good chunk of finance majors that do not even want to come close to Wall Street. The lifestyle, type of work, etc. is just not intriguing or appealing enough even given the pay. Finance is a controlled major at Penn State and only about 300-350 will even get into finance, based on a person's GPA in his/her first semester. Out of those 300, I would say anywhere from 30-50 actually want FO jobs on Wall St. and about 15-25 are actually qualified for those roles. This past year we had around 15 receive and accept full time offers in front office roles at BB's. That tremendously narrows down the field of applicants. If you can stand out, and simply based on the posters seeming determination, it seems as though he would work hard and get into that upper echelon.

In terms of the amount of work you have to put in, do you have to put in a lot of work? Definitely, you are going to have to put in a lot of work no matter what school you go to. I can guarantee you the course workload at PSU is much less rigorous than at most targets (at least from my interaction with my many friends who have gone to targets and have had similar aspirations). This leaves a lot more time to get involved with other things, which is where you get the marginal education that the average Penn State student may not get, but that probably means he or she is not involved in the correct things to ensure placement onto Wall Street. Particularly in relation to kids in the honors college you knew that did not get a sniff from Wall St., getting involved in the right things and standing out are the most important things to landing a gig, my guess is that they just did not do that. With the lack of OCR, you have to talk to people to get noticed, but that is more than possible at PSU. I know plenty of kids in the honors college who have gotten great jobs on the street in the past few years.

You do not need prior connections or be a D1 athlete to get into this category either. There are plenty of alumni at nearly every major bank willing to help out PSU students and will fight tooth and nail to help kids they like.

In terms of the education I received here, I am not going to sit here and tell you that the classes here are extremely rigorous or can compare in anyway to what you will receive at a Wharton, NYU, MIT etc., but the things you do outside of class (getting involved in things like the PSIA and NLF) are what set us apart when we do interview against candidates from those schools. Some of the things I have learned here are above and beyond what some of my peers at some of those schools have received because of the things I got involved with. The best way I like to explain PSU and Smeal to people is that there is a world of opportunity here, no one is going to hand you anything (you can turn into a number very quickly), but if you work hard and seek opportunities in the things that you are interested in, especially if it is Wall St, PSU will provide adequate resources to allow you to do so.

Slaving away 3 years of your life for the job like the one example you cited (I think I might even know who you are referring to here) is one case and not the experience of everyone here. Let's face it, if you want a job on Wall St, you are going to have to work hard no matter what school you are at, target or non target. So to me this is somewhat of a moot point. The people I know at targets, at least in my conversations with them, still seemed to work harder than me in most cases in relation to their classes, while kids here will work hard networking and getting involved with things outside the classroom to make up for the fact that we are not a target school.

Recruiting wise, no we are not a target at many banks. We just became a target at GS and have had some placement at many BB's, maybe not 5 or 10 kids, but getting 1 or 2 people in places is a start. Like you said, it takes many years to become a target school. If alumni keep sticking their head out for the students here, hopefully we eventually be, but time will tell with that one. That being said there is definitely heightened interest with some of our students here at a couple of different BB's that we have not seen before.

To sum up, PSU will offer the resources to gain placement onto Wall St. The recruiting may not be as robust, but you can definitely help control that situation here if you network, which is more than possible because we have placed enough people who are willing to help out in the past few years. In the end, it still comes down to the individual, if you are smart, work hard, know what you have to do to get a job on the street and people like you, your school will not be the biggest determinant of whether you land a FO job on Wall St. To the original poster, all else equal, go to UMich, but don't be discouraged in anyway in coming to PSU, should you decide to do so.

Who knows, maybe everything I wrote here is discredited because I do not know the difference between a FO/MO/BO job on the Street....but last I checked many of my peers and I got FO jobs on Wall St very early in our senior years, much of which is due to everything I received here at PSU.

11/29/10

i dont care dude.. your in school.. i am in the real world.. schools dont mean shit.. my bonus is not determined by my college or how many of my peers work in finance. end of the day is this kid is focused and willing to work hard he will get a job in finance and be fine. the only exp i have with a ross grad that stands out is someone who lied about missing work only to catch a foul ball at the cubs/cards game... fired next morning and it was pretty funny.

11/29/10

You wall streeters really like to quarrel. Haha well anyways I was wondering if my idea of doing an internship/ shadow/ training type thing with an investment bank in New York is a reasonable idea? I am willing to sacrfice some of my summer this year because I figure hey 3 summers are gone but ill be set the next 50 summers of my life when I work at a firm and doing the job I want. How should I network with them? just cold call? I am also asking the fishers future guy since he prolly has all the recruiting contacts. i figure wherever i go having that experience and contact will last a long time. Thanks a lot for the responses !! Lets keep them rolling in !!

please answer this question I would appreciate it again thanks to all !!!!

In reply to monty09
11/29/10

monty09:
Jerome Marrow:
It is funny here that none of you can even disagree with my points and go on irrational rants about shit I never even said.

My point(s):

-PSU is not a target, meaning there is extremely little to no on campus recruiting for FO positions in IB or S&T.
-It has relatively poor placement in finance compared to Ross and even UIndiana (perhaps even Wisconsin). This is related to above.
-People that do end up making it into a good finance gig from PSU, if not already having some intangible (ie good D1 athlete) or a strong connection to the street, have to work much harder than those of equal status at a different school (like Ross or somewhere else).
-There are nearly 6000 people at the undergrad business school--even if 10 or even 20 kids do make it into a FO high finance position (not true, but let's pretend that many did make it), that is quite poor placement relative to many other schools and those individuals likely would have made it from another more targeted school with substantially less hardship.

If your goal is finance, choosing PSU is like running a 100m race, but setting your blocks up 5m behind everyone else. It doesn't mean the end of the race, but it is sure a substantial handicap.

Your point(s):

-Nothing intelligible

every trader i know from penn st was an regular student with decent grades... no d1 sports ( I was and agree its a huge leg up) and most just made good grades and OCR... nothing special..

my first job out of college was in chicago and I went to each of these schools for fresh analyst... none were that different..

monty thanks for being a voice of reason on this thread... it's becoming increasingly clear that Jerome, here, is simply poorly informed... he clearly knows nothing about our OCR recruiting (which is in no way insubstantial) and just because there are 5800 students in our business school doesn't mean they are all finance majors

We only accept 300 kids per year into the finance major at our b school so being that of the total program only 1 in 5 students is a finance major with only 300 per class per year and we place 30-40 plus per year into front office jobs on the street that means that if you get into the finance major at Smeal you have a 1 in 10 shot at getting a job on the street... I think the odds are fairly similar to what you would see many places after you consider that many students do not want street jobs...

Bottom line, Jerome, virtually no one on this thread has derived any value from the blind (and unjustified) school bashing you've brought to the table, and all you've really done is present yourself as an insufferable jackass... certainly the original poster has not learned anything from what you've said... you don't even know anything about our school (by the way Jim Cramer visited our fund managers and paid us one of the highest compliments we ever could have hoped to receive http://wallst.smeal.psu.edu/nittany-lion-fund)... I guarantee you monty has a better job and more perspective on this issue than you have... you are literally too stupid to insult, and your analogies, like your candor, leave much to be desired... how about you tell everyone where you went to school and stop hating on a legitimate business program with strong placement...

In reply to TNA
11/29/10

Anthony .:
Next time, act like an adult and address my error. Throwing out "non target" as if it is some sort of an insult is laughable. There are plenty of top schools that do not get IB recruiting. Even within top schools you can still be non target.

+1.

At a lot of firms, non-target is actually a bit of a compliment- assuming nobody with the same last name as you works at the firm.

To the OP, all three schools that you mentioned are excellent flagship land grant schools, but I would lean towards Michigan-Ross, all things being equal. If PSU is in-state and you don't want to go into debt, I wouldn't rule it out either.

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11/29/10

LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

In reply to happypantsmcgee
11/29/10

happypantsmcgee:
At least if he goes to Penn State he knows he won't have to associate with your obnoxious ass

+1 happy, for making me laugh out loud in a full computer lab... too bad my shitty non-target school can't afford more compuders... now everyone is laffing at me... sighs...

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/29/10

Jerome Marrow:
LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

Remember how you bitched and moaned because people "didn't read your post"? You took one fucking line out of rufio's straight up ownage of your pissy, whiny, choad stroking ass and used it to make a farcical and stupid joke. Jim Cramer worked at Goldman and did well enough that you (whiny bitch that you are) knows who he is. Why don't you just go the fuck away, you non contributing zero.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

11/29/10

Listen, Penn State is what it is: a big state school with it's real claim to fame being the football team. Are there ups and downs to it? Absolutely. It's going to be harder to get to Wall St: you'll have to work your sack off to get a shot, but there are opportunities. You just need to work a little harder to prove yourself, and don't get it confused: you will be a number.

Jerome is entitled to his opinion and it certainly has some merit: Penn State is a modest semi-target if anything, and that's the trade-off. At the same time, I'm happy I went there because once you've graduated, that's it, there's no going back. I've had some unbelievable times there, between the football, the parties, and nickel night at the Saloon, I would never trade those experiences for anything.

11/29/10

Jerome is desperately trying to stop the troll train he's locked himself into, but it just keeps careening along faster and faster as he tries to stop it by hitting the accelerator.

Just let it go man. You don't have to win every debate.

PSU is ranked #1 in recruiting among F500 qualities as having the largest supply of high quality candidates. We can debate whether it's in the same league as the targets or not, but a lot of successful firms (certainly moreso than most finance firms over the past three years) think the school graduates some pretty darned smart folks. We've got several folks here on the equities trading floor who hail from PSU and we do some informal on-campus recruiting there, too.

OP- why the heck do you want to go into investment banking? It's like someone studying engineering back in 1975 saying that they want to go work for Chrysler. The industry is an overpriced junk heap. What you really want to do is go work in aerospace, energy, or utilities.

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/29/10

Jerome Marrow:
LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

Last time I checked you never started a hedge fund... regardless of what you think of him as a person, you can't argue that the man has considerably (understatement) more knowledge of everything in finance than you ever will... bottom line, I know I have a better job than you and I bet that really pisses you off... especially because I went to the school I went to... Cheers mate, let that bitterness eat away at you like a cancer

In reply to happypantsmcgee
11/29/10

happypantsmcgee:
Jerome Marrow:
LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

Remember how you bitched and moaned because people "didn't read your post"? You took one fucking line out of rufio's straight up ownage of your pissy, whiny, choad stroking ass and used it to make a farcical and stupid joke. Jim Cramer worked at Goldman and did well enough that you (whiny bitch that you are) knows who he is. Why don't you just go the fuck away, you non contributing zero.

First off, you/Anthony/monty didn't read my posts before babbling. Fact. Even Anthony acknowledged this in this. Second, Rufio's post was so illogical and factually incorrect, that it didn't even warrant a response. I almost pissed myself reading his Cramer reference, which really does tell you a lot about the type of education you're going to get and how well your logic and reasoning will be developed. If one's justification of the Penn St. education and finance club is that a guy with a history of unethical practices, that is a net loser in investment advice outside of the dot-com bubble and raising funds, and acts obnoxiously on TV says it is good, then you're fucked.

If your justification of the Cramer-stamp-of-approval is that he 'worked at Goldman' and is well known, then you are not a very logical, rational, or even educated person.

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/29/10

Jerome Marrow:
happypantsmcgee:
Jerome Marrow:
LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

Remember how you bitched and moaned because people "didn't read your post"? You took one fucking line out of rufio's straight up ownage of your pissy, whiny, choad stroking ass and used it to make a farcical and stupid joke. Jim Cramer worked at Goldman and did well enough that you (whiny bitch that you are) knows who he is. Why don't you just go the fuck away, you non contributing zero.

First off, you/Anthony/monty didn't read my posts before babbling. Fact. Even Anthony acknowledged this in this. Second, Rufio's post was so illogical and factually incorrect, that it didn't even warrant a response. I almost pissed myself reading his Cramer reference, which really does tell you a lot about the type of education you're going to get and how well your logic and reasoning will be developed. If one's justification of the Penn St. education and finance club is that a guy with a history of unethical practices, that is a net loser in investment advice outside of the dot-com bubble and raising funds, and acts obnoxiously on TV says it is good, then you're fucked.

If your justification of the Cramer-stamp-of-approval is that he 'worked at Goldman' and is well known, then you are not a very logical, rational, or even educated person.

and what is that you do? from what i hear your were a "soft major" in college. so who are you to judge a business major

In reply to rufiolove
11/29/10

rufiolove:
Jerome Marrow:
LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

Last time I checked you never started a hedge fund... regardless of what you think of him as a person, you can't argue that the man has considerably (understatement) more knowledge of everything in finance than you ever will... bottom line, I know I have a better job than you and I bet that really pisses you off... especially because I went to the school I went to... Cheers mate, let that bitterness eat away at you like a cancer

lol you think Cramer is a bastion of financial wisdom.... because he started a hedge fund.....

Please read Fooled By Randomness. It will be an eye opener to you.

And re: a better job, if that is the justification you make in your head, that is pretty pathetic. With that said, I have great doubts that you have a 'better' job and are likely not in the same industry to begin with....

In reply to monty09
11/29/10

monty09:
Jerome Marrow:
happypantsmcgee:
Jerome Marrow:
LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

Remember how you bitched and moaned because people "didn't read your post"? You took one fucking line out of rufio's straight up ownage of your pissy, whiny, choad stroking ass and used it to make a farcical and stupid joke. Jim Cramer worked at Goldman and did well enough that you (whiny bitch that you are) knows who he is. Why don't you just go the fuck away, you non contributing zero.

First off, you/Anthony/monty didn't read my posts before babbling. Fact. Even Anthony acknowledged this in this. Second, Rufio's post was so illogical and factually incorrect, that it didn't even warrant a response. I almost pissed myself reading his Cramer reference, which really does tell you a lot about the type of education you're going to get and how well your logic and reasoning will be developed. If one's justification of the Penn St. education and finance club is that a guy with a history of unethical practices, that is a net loser in investment advice outside of the dot-com bubble and raising funds, and acts obnoxiously on TV says it is good, then you're fucked.

If your justification of the Cramer-stamp-of-approval is that he 'worked at Goldman' and is well known, then you are not a very logical, rational, or even educated person.

and what is that you do? from what i hear your were a "soft major" in college. so who are you to judge a business major

lol that is the beauty.... outside of Wharton/maybe Ross/some others, business is the definition of a soft major. It is a joke. And yes, as I have posted numerous times, I have a social science degree from a 'top' school.... although I prob took as many courses in 'hard' sciences (math/physics) as any 'business' major in this thread, but that is neither here nor there. It is not as-if you are learning anything of great significance anyway, but rather, learning how to think and problem solve. Luckily, where I work and others like it care more to judge your problem solving and intellect than some joke ugrad college business course.

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/29/10

ddd

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

11/29/10

art history, gender studies,music or phy and Gibsons on me...

11/29/10

Fooled and Black Swan are two of my favorite books. Nassim has a 3rd out right now.
http://www.amazon.com/nassimtalebfavo/dp/1400069971/

11/29/10

IP's bottom line:

1.) PSU and Michigan are both excellent schools. The smartest kid to graduate Michigan is probably going to be smarter than the smartest kid at Harvard in a little more than 1 out of every 2 years. (Mind you Michigan is bigger so that helps it.)

2.) You'd have to be crazy to want to go into investment banking at this point. The industry is cannibalizing itself and we need smart people to go off and work at Fortune 500 companies and become the country's next crop of CEOs in 15-20 years. Sitting in front of a computer and working on Excel every day when you could be in the field figuring out which oil fields to explore or where to site the next solar plant or nuclear reactor doesn't seem all that cool. Finance isn't just about mergers- it's also about building new things and creating the energy foundation for the economy for the next fifty years. Not to mention space-based solar arrays if we ever get carbon nanotubes strong enough to build a space elevator. I think all of that could be a lot more exciting than mergers or even trading if you ask me.

3.) PSU is ranked #1 in WSJ's survey of Fortune 500 companies as to where to find the best applicants. They also get their fair share of placements into sales/trading on Wall Street. (I am not sure about IBD)

11/29/10

i am sure the biz majors are sitting with you too..... well not the ross ones..

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/29/10

Jerome Marrow:

lol that is the beauty.... outside of Wharton/maybe Ross/some others, business is the definition of a soft major. It is a joke. And yes, as I have posted numerous times, I have a social science degree from a 'top' school.... although I prob took as many courses in 'hard' sciences (math/physics) as any 'business' major in this thread, but that is neither here nor there. It is not as-if you are learning anything of great significance anyway, but rather, learning how to think and problem solve. Luckily, where I work and others like it care more to judge your problem solving and intellect than some joke ugrad college business course.

Pardon the D&D Reference, but:

Jerome Marrow: INT: 18 WIS: 3

Dude, just give it a rest. You got a social science degree from some target school and crawled your way into trading. Good for you. If someone as... persistent as you can crawl your way in from social science, surely a PSU student with a Finance/Engineering background can make it in, too, if they're dumb enough to really want to do investment banking and/or trading with the way the industry is heading.

In reply to IlliniProgrammer
11/29/10

IlliniProgrammer:
IP's bottom line:

1.) PSU and Michigan are both excellent schools. The smartest kid to graduate Michigan is probably going to be smarter than the smartest kid at Harvard in a little more than 1 out of every 2 years. (Mind you Michigan is bigger so that helps it.)

2.) You'd have to be crazy to want to go into investment banking at this point. The industry is cannibalizing itself and we need smart people to go off and work at Fortune 500 companies and become the country's next crop of CEOs in 15-20 years. Sitting in front of a computer and working on Excel every day when you could be in the field figuring out which oil fields to explore or where to site the next solar plant or nuclear reactor doesn't seem all that cool. Finance isn't just about mergers- it's also about building new things and creating the energy foundation for the economy for the next fifty years. Not to mention space-based solar arrays if we ever get carbon nanotubes strong enough to build a space elevator. I think all of that could be a lot more exciting than mergers or even trading if you ask me.

3.) PSU is ranked #1 in WSJ's survey of Fortune 500 companies as to where to find the best applicants. They also get their fair share of placements into sales/trading on Wall Street. (I am not sure about IBD)

PGE is hiring like crazy for their alt energy group... going to all the major b schools... has not been like that since the enron days

11/29/10

i am leaving trading within the year.... cheese has def moved

11/29/10

think Jerome Marrow come on...use that soft major.... dont let me down.... catchy come back...

11/29/10

? What is your question? How many beers have you downed at this pt? I can barely understand your last 4-5 posts.

11/29/10

thats the best you got.. come on.. i like a kid with some fight in him...

11/30/10

Anthony,

While he didn't insult everyone fro Penn State, he certainly did insult me without actively giving me a "Fuck You." Having already admitted that I am one of many Penn State graduates working on the street, his belief that we are a bunch of backwater hicks with no understanding of even the most basic distinctions within the financial world definitely angered me. He has implied that Penn State grads have found their way onto Wall Street by sheer luck and don't deserve it. His incompetence towards anything that isn't a target is insulting enough and shows a lack of understanding that life is not where you went to school, but the hunger and drive you have to succeed regardless of where you graduate. I highly doubt he went to the precious target school in the target program that he so lovingly covets. And poor, poor, pitiful me, a Penn State graduate who, in Marrow's mind, took a job away from a kid from a target school.

As to you, Mr. Marrow,

You know where I went for my UG career and you know where Anthony went, yet we are both part of the Street. Time to come clean and let us know about your major and your undergraduate alma mater. Otherwise, I'll just assume that you couldn't get into whatever business school you applied to and were unable to transfer into it futher down the road, forcing you to get a non-business related degree, like art history. I'm fine with that assumption.

Now, to be blunt, I do not like you. Quite frankly, I find you to be a rather inane, childish fool with illusions of grandeur who will crash and burn before you realize it. You do not strike me as the kind of person who likes the idea that there are kids out there who go to "non-targets", as you so aptly describe it, that will do far more than you ever will. I find you to be an annoyance with no concept of reality. I find you to be the type of person whose opinion is extremely biased, the likes of which can only be compared to some of the worst trolls on WSO. Simply put, you sir, are just like Van Owen.

However, being a gentleman and a scholar, I will not let that interfere with my response to your outright dislike of Penn State and any school that isn't a target of Wall Street. I will simply state this, wherever you went to school, whatever you think, at the end of the day, you live and die by your ability to produce, no matter what role you are in. It doesn't matter whether you had a 4.0 from Harvard or a 4.0 from a complete non-target, the real world is completely different from the Ivory Tower ideology that you so clearly cling to.

Lets look at what you said and dissect it down.

So you went through that whole rant to repeat the same shit everybody else said? Are you not aware enough to see how full circle it all is? Michigan has overall smarter students because it is a better school and, in part of its good academics, it gets recruiters to visit the school and make it a semi-target to target for various banks. PSU and OSU are not known to be bastions of academic excellence in comparison to every single target and on top of that, have not generated a large number of alumni that go to work on the street.

Your reasoning is really no different than anybody else's here. The advice about asking people what they like about it is equally worthless--they don't really have a good comparison do they? Look at all these PSU kids talking about how excellent and rigorous their academics are.... I mean that is about as laughable as it gets.

So, let me get this straight. If I understand you correctly, you seem to solely focus on targets schools. I guess that means that unless you go to the premier Tier 1 Schools in the Tier 1 Target programs, it doesn't matter what Non-Target or Semi-Target you go to, you won't get a job on Wall Street. Am I understanding that right?

Now, lets look at the smarter student comment. Again, blind bias that indicates you know nothing about the student body makeup of Penn State, nor are you even attempting to compare apples to apples by comparing both the Penn State's University Park campus, instead of the entire 20+ campus system, to UMich's Ann Arbor Campus, instead of its 3 campus system. Clearly, Penn State has a much larger student base to compare against. This also doesn't reflect that 80% of Penn State's students are from Pennsylvania versus the 66% from Michigan that attend UMich. Find a way to compare apples to apples and you come off a bit smarter than you actually are.

n=1, sweet. Look at the overall numbers and what the point of my posts has been. PSU = shitty placement and uphill battle. I know that they don't really teach you how to understand the context of comments, but it is important here.

There are 6000 kids in their undergrad bschool and probably more outside of that who have interests involving finance. The fact that a tiny number of kids get in, many of whom are likely athletes or have strong connections to the street to begin with, doesn't make it a good school for recruiting. As I said, the people I know personally who went to PSU, did well, and ended up at good places (ie top tier IB analyst program) slaved away all year and during their 3 college summers. On the other hand, I know dozens of people from my school who ended up in similar positions without having ever even done an internship in finance.... good luck doing that from PSU. Shit there are hundreds of kids from my high school graduating class who went to PSU, are plenty smart, and did great, but have had dreadful times getting top tier finance interviews, let alone jobs.

Again, way to assume that the entire population has the desire to work on Wall Street or is unable to get into any firm by their own merit and strengths. Of the 6,000 that are in Smeal, do you realistically think that every single student has a desire to be in finance? The answer is no. And once you finally acknowledge the branch system, you again fail to make an apt comparison. Your sample size at Ross, given its smaller size, does not make a fair comparison against a larger state school. You can skew the statistics from a smaller school to bend to your will than you can the statistics from a larger school. IF you are going to make such baseless statements, at least be considerate of the realities of what the entire student base are looking for. So... give me a good set of statistics before you make any baseless statements. Try that one on for size.

On to the second point you made, good for your friends. I know Penn Staters that ended up on Wall Street without having any finance related internships in Front Office positions. Oh, and I just learned something about you. By your own statement, it sounds as though you are from Pennsylvania. It sounds like either you are seriously exaggerating about your graduating class or you grew up in either the Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or Harrisburg areas, and would be extremely amused if you went to Red Land High School or Franklin Regional. So, clearly there is a bit of hidden anger and bias that you are presenting, most likely because you have a deep seeded regret about not enjoying life instead of slaving away at it at a "target school" in a non-target major. I know people that got 3.8s at Penn State without having to slave away, had fulfilling social lives and are content to work on Wall Street, in consulting or wherever they got work, and others that slaved away, sold their souls and got nothing for it. You're talking about the natural order of things, with no real differentiation between some jackalope from Harvard or a genius that went to a state school. Again, your clear bias becomes more apparent without any proof given your small worldview.

And on to your famous list of points... oh, your points...

My point(s):

-PSU is not a target, meaning there is extremely little to no on campus recruiting for FO positions in IB or S&T.
-It has relatively poor placement in finance compared to Ross and even UIndiana (perhaps even Wisconsin). This is related to above.
-People that do end up making it into a good finance gig from PSU, if not already having some intangible (ie good D1 athlete) or a strong connection to the street, have to work much harder than those of equal status at a different school (like Ross or somewhere else).
-There are nearly 6000 people at the undergrad business school--even if 10 or even 20 kids do make it into a FO high finance position (not true, but let's pretend that many did make it), that is quite poor placement relative to many other schools and those individuals likely would have made it from another more targeted school with substantially less hardship.

The first point, I would disagree with. So would the Wall Street Journal.
The second and third points, again I refer to the misconception of the statistics you use. Please enlighten me what the difference between 20 kids from Ross getting into FO positions and 20 kids from Penn State getting positions?

Oh wait, you can't without quoting me an inflated statistic. Let me refer you to something called the absolute. It doesn't matter what the total acceptance ratio is if only 20 FO positions were taken by kids that went to Ross versus 20 FO positions that were taken by kids that went to Smeal. At the end of the day, while the ration may be lower, the absolute number of jobs taken is still the same. Percentages are only descriptive until you look past them at the underlying values. Never trust the percentages until you can firmly back up your numbers with accurate statistics for the entirety of a given population. This is basic research 101, or do you not learn that in Art History?

LMAO

Everybody.... STOP!

Jim Motherfucking Cramer has put his stamp of approval on a fucking student run investment club..... End of discussion.

Seriously, referencing him to validate your club... That should tell everybody here the value of a PSU finance education. I am not kidding.

I'm not even sure how I should approach that statement. What does Cramer have to do with anything? However, his validation is surprisingly good to have. This is the validation from an Ex-Goldman Partner who ran a successful hedge fun, managed a major financial website, runs his own charitable foundation, and is worth more than 50 Million. I don't see what the problem is with it? Yes, he's a douchebag that does individual investors wrong, but this is a man who grew up in Pennsylvania, graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard and went on to get his J.D. from Harvard Law. Your attempt at discrediting Penn State just further reinforces our school's ability to stand with the big dogs. Clearly you are just as uninformed as Cramer is good at losing investors money. This has the same equivalence of a guy like Kravis giving $100MM to his Alma Mater. It's support by a major figure in the industry, and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's quite a nice accolade for a bunch of undergraduates to receive.

And re: a better job, if that is the justification you make in your head, that is pretty pathetic. With that said, I have great doubts that you have a 'better' job and are likely not in the same industry to begin with....

No offense to Rufio, but I am quite certain that Monty was referring to another WSO user. Who it may be is only for Monty to know. If I recall, Rufio is currently ending his career at Penn State, so it makes no sense to even assume that it's Rufio we are discussing.

Seeing as you are a trader with a BS degree from a "Target" school, I guess I should be bowing down to you for advice on what I do since I went to a "non-target" school. I'm sure you can give me the absolute best advice on how to manage portfolios and effectively make sure I properly manage risk. Poor, poor, pitiful me, poor, poor pitiful me. It seems as though I reduced to asking an Art History Major for career advice. Wait, no... ultimately, you keep digging your hole and burying yourself deeper into the mud. Until you can present an unbiased opinion that doesn't resort to some of the classless comments you have made and are not an asshole about it, you'll just end up ignored like poorly behaving child.

Latitude,

Well, we did give the OP our honest opinion. If you also saw, I was vocal to say that I wouldn't trade my four years at Penn State for anything. I would not get rid of any experience I had, be it studying all night at Pollock, seeing the RZA and ODB at The Crowbar or enjoying my nights out carousing with friends. While it is important to consider what you want to do for the rest of your life, college is also meant to be enjoyed. I have stories that reflect that. I also have the grades to prove I worked my ass off. Consider

I'm just going to point this out only once. Look at the respective sizes of the two schools, and you do the math. Stop proving that you are less intelligent than a mentally handicapped orangutan tripping face on acid. Now, assuming you are right in implying your 20% of the graduating class, that means, 55 people in a class of ~275 work on Wall Street. Assuming that the same number of people work on the street from Penn State, you are looking at ~4% of a total graduation class of 1,500. See how statistics can create a clearly misguided view of the world?

Seeing as all you care about is academics, if I were to discuss with a potential UMich grad, since I happen to find it as a good ice breaker, how would you handle these interview questions? Now let me ask you this, how is life at UMich going? How is the Maize and Blue doing? Are you guys looking forward to firing another coach and proving you can't really hang with the big dogs in the Big Ten? How's the 3-5 conference record treating you? Just because you go to Ross doesn't mean you are not excused from being a well rounded, well educated student.

To the OP,

The best piece of advice I can give you about college is to go where you feel most comfortable. You have four years to live your life, so enjoy it. Work hard for the future, but make sure you have time to enjoy life.

11/30/10

TL;DR all that shit---though seriously? You say I either grew up in Philly, Pittsburgh, or Harrisburgh? lol yep, one of the 3 biggest cities in the state the encompass prob 90-95% of the population, really sticking your neck out there with that guess. Yes, I grew up in one of those areas and my high school had 3000-5000 kids to give you a nice wide number.

How is this an opinion thing? Either Wall St firms go and recruit on campus or they don't. In this case, they don't. The fact you reference that extremely poor WSJ article just shows that you really don't know what you are talking about because it has been ripped to shreds already for poor journalism.

I am from Pennsylvania and, outside of trolling you idiots when you have your panties in a bunch, I have numerous times said that Penn St. is not a bad school by any means and I know extremely intelligent and capable people that go there. The OP asked which school is best for IB. Morons have been irrationally defending PSU for whatever reason. Is it a top state school? Sure. It is not comparable to Ross or even Michigan as a whole though and the recruitment certainly isn't close to the best for the Big Ten WITH REGARDS TO FINANCE.

And I'll say it again because I can, I never insulted the Penn State campus, but rather, the moron posters in this thread (2-3 of them), that don't have any reading comprehension skills to begin with to understand what this original poster was even asking.

Someone's value as a person is not based on where they went to school by any means. I have never said anything of the kind even though people in this thread continue to harp on it irrationally and baselessly. My 'target vs non-target' comments (outside of trolling anthony for being a fool who didn't read) have been with regards to the quality of the schools themselves and the recruitment. Target schools are targets in large part because of better academics to begin with and objectively have more firms come for serious OCR. This is an objective, non-opinionated fact. If you work hard, you can succeed anywhere, but you sure as shit are setting yourself far back and are going to need to work a lot harder in the recruitment process even compared to peer (other Big Ten) schools.

In reply to happypantsmcgee
11/30/10
11/30/10

And I thought this thread was about football...

In reply to Jerome Marrow
11/30/10

Someone's value as a person is not based on where they went to school by any means. I have never said anything of the kind even though people in this thread continue to harp on it irrationally and baselessly. My 'target vs non-target' comments (outside of trolling anthony for being a fool who didn't read) have been with regards to the quality of the schools themselves and the recruitment. Target schools are targets in large part because of better academics to begin with and objectively have more firms come for serious OCR. This is an objective, non-opinionated fact. If you work hard, you can succeed anywhere, but you sure as shit are setting yourself far back and are going to need to work a lot harder in the recruitment process even compared to peer (other Big Ten) schools.

If it's a Big Ten school, it's got pretty darned good academics. Particularly PSU.

Penn State and Michigan both give you roughly the same shot at getting onto Wall Street. However, Michigan has a stronger national reputation than Penn State particularly when it comes to finance and business. It's also the frigging Harvard of Chicago, hence your view on it.

How is this an opinion thing? Either Wall St firms go and recruit on campus or they don't. In this case, they don't. The fact you reference that extremely poor WSJ article just shows that you really don't know what you are talking about because it has been ripped to shreds already for poor journalism.

Largely by undergrads from target schools who post on this forum. In North Korea, I'm sure Obama's assertions that NK has nukes have gotten ripped to shreds, too.

And I'll say it again because I can, I never insulted the Penn State campus, but rather, the moron posters in this thread (2-3 of them), that don't have any reading comprehension skills to begin with to understand what this original poster was even asking.
....
TL;DR all that shit---though seriously?

For someone with a liberal arts degree, you don't come off as all that qualified to judge folks on reading comprehension.
11/30/10

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