Operations:beware

Well I was very naive and uninformed throughout the recruiting process about what exactly operations is. I just saw the great name of the company and figured it would look good. Boy was I wrong. I figured "Hey, it can't be as bad as everyone says on WSO", much to my disappointment, it is. The task are very mundane-that is, when I actually have something to do. Granted, I've only been here a few months, but in operations your learn absolutely nothing of value. It grew from liking the easy hours and laid back culture at first, to pure loathing. Please, prospective job monkeys, if an operations job is your only offer, keep looking. Now don't get me wrong, the hours are easy and its very chill with somewhat decent pay. If this is your sort of thing, then it can be great. But for everyone else, it sucks. I'm actually considering repaying my bonus and going to intern for a local mm or boutique investment bank if the opportunity comes up.

Just a heads up to prospective monkeys.

 

I worked in ops for 5 months before quitting. Worst job ever. I worked with morons and incompetent people. Ops is the kiss of death. Never, ever take an ops position. Do anything else you can.

 
Anthony .:
I worked in ops for 5 months before quitting. Worst job ever. I worked with morons and incompetent people. Ops is the kiss of death. Never, ever take an ops position. Do anything else you can.

Yes, I spent 10 weeks in Ops and was miserable. How those jobs remain in the USA is beyond me. To the OP, it may be miserable, but tough it out or try to move to the client middle office. You are extremely close to the money makers and you can often prove yourself. I met tons of VPs in the BO who had worked in securities and PE/Merchant Banking. They had the opportunity to prove themselves in the FO but elected to move to the BO once they had kids.

I am not cocky, I am confident, and when you tell me I am the best it is a compliment. -Styles P
 
eokpar02:
Anthony .:
I worked in ops for 5 months before quitting. Worst job ever. I worked with morons and incompetent people. Ops is the kiss of death. Never, ever take an ops position. Do anything else you can.

Yes, I spent 10 weeks in Ops and was miserable. How those jobs remain in the USA is beyond me. To the OP, it may be miserable, but tough it out or try to move to the client middle office. You are extremely close to the money makers and you can often prove yourself. I met tons of VPs in the BO who had worked in securities and PE/Merchant Banking. They had the opportunity to prove themselves in the FO but elected to move to the BO once they had kids.

Oh I know! I used to think the same thing.

Here is my view. If you are going to do Ops, ask yourself why. Is it because you are working for a bank and you want to be a banker or because you think it is challenging and interesting. I think 99% of the kids sucked into Ops are doing it because they can tell people they are at Goldman Sachs.

If you tried out for the Lakers and didn't get the spot would you be happy being the towel boy? As yourself that.

 

The only thing stopping me from just quitting is the repayment of the bonus. I have to work there for a year and then I don't have to worry about it. But your right, it is abysmal. I started a new job search after the first day on the job, and if something comes up It;s worth paying the 10k back to leave.

 

I said it once a while back and I will say it again.

People get blinded by the business card. If you are in ops at Morgan Stanley you are not any closer to IBD than if you were in sales at Colgate. Do something with transferable skills and make the jump. Ops is a million miles away from where you really want to be.

 

I've never worked in Ops but it can't be that bad can it? I mean, every entry-level job is boring. I did a summer in IBD at a Boutique (very boring, fudging around with credit models), 1.5 years in RM (Market Risk) after graduation (interesting for the first few months because of all the complex statistics, after that a mainly review position that got pretty boring), and now in AM- definitely stimulating overall but day-to-day aspects can also be monotonous. I would say Finance is only exciting when you're in the actual decision-making seat- making deals, taking positions, what have you. Otherwise it's like every other job- and the vast majority of Americans don't like their job.

 

My view is anyone that is in a job and thinks it has nothing to offer them, most likely isn't capable of doing a job above that particular position anyway.

It is whatever you make it.

I know a girl who was an admin for the trade support desk (operations), parlayed that into a spot on that trade support desk and is now a trader. On another note, I had a temp doing the worst fucking work imaginable on a deal I was staffed on. A million times worse then anything you would have to do in operations. But she was awesome, she did the completely mind numbing shit I asked of her and she had a great attitude the whole time. And she was smart enough to where I could task her with doing other shit she shouldn't have been able to do on paper. Long story short, she had been out of college and looking for a job for quite a while I hit up everyone in my firm trying to help her get hooked up... and she did... in a pretty sick job actually. Meanwhile, what positions was she interviewing for and hoping to get before she was temping for me? Admin and operations jobs.

So it doesn't matter what your expected to do, it matters what you get out of the experience and what you're capable of doing with it. If you're not capable of getting anything out of it, don't blame the position, you're the one that's intellectually impotent.

 
Marcus_Halberstram:
My view is anyone that is in a job and thinks it has nothing to offer them, most likely isn't capable of doing a job above that particular position anyway.

It is whatever you make it.

I know a girl who was an admin for the trade support desk (operations), parlayed that into a spot on that trade support desk and is now a trader. On another note, I had a temp doing the worst fucking work imaginable on a deal I was staffed on. A million times worse then anything you would have to do in operations. But she was awesome, she did the completely mind numbing shit I asked of her and she had a great attitude the whole time. And she was smart enough to where I could task her with doing other shit she shouldn't have been able to do on paper. Long story short, she had been out of college and looking for a job for quite a while I hit up everyone in my firm trying to help her get hooked up... and she did... in a pretty sick job actually. Meanwhile, what positions was she interviewing for and hoping to get before she was temping for me? Admin and operations jobs.

So it doesn't matter what your expected to do, it matters what you get out of the experience and what you're capable of doing with it. If you're not capable of getting anything out of it, don't blame the position, you're the one that's intellectually impotent.

I don't know why this warranted monkey shit (maybe from some bitter monkeys currently stuck in Ops - my condolences) but I actually liked Marcus' stories, particularly the 2nd one. Marcus - did she end up in an ibd analyst role or something?

I know someone who managed a similar thing as your first story. So it can be done - rare - but can be done.

 
Marcus_Halberstram:
My view is anyone that is in a job and thinks it has nothing to offer them, most likely isn't capable of doing a job above that particular position anyway.

It is whatever you make it.

I know a girl who was an admin for the trade support desk (operations), parlayed that into a spot on that trade support desk and is now a trader. On another note, I had a temp doing the worst fucking work imaginable on a deal I was staffed on. A million times worse then anything you would have to do in operations. But she was awesome, she did the completely mind numbing shit I asked of her and she had a great attitude the whole time. And she was smart enough to where I could task her with doing other shit she shouldn't have been able to do on paper. Long story short, she had been out of college and looking for a job for quite a while I hit up everyone in my firm trying to help her get hooked up... and she did... in a pretty sick job actually. Meanwhile, what positions was she interviewing for and hoping to get before she was temping for me? Admin and operations jobs.

So it doesn't matter what your expected to do, it matters what you get out of the experience and what you're capable of doing with it. If you're not capable of getting anything out of it, don't blame the position, you're the one that's intellectually impotent.

Neither of your stories effectively argue that ops is a decent way to get into FO IB. I don't know if that's what you're arguing, so I may be misguided, but...

Your first story is about going from ops to trading...everyone knows that's much easier than trading to IB.

Your second story talks about girl doing temp work with you. I'm assuming you were/are in the FO, which would mean she was working in the FO. Though her duties may have been worse than ops, she was still arguably much better off (in regards to breaking into FO)) than people in ops b/c she was physically IN the front office and to work directly with you...would you have helped her out if she had been in the MO? No - you wouldn't have worked with her and she wouldn’t have been able to impress you. So, she's far from an example of someone making it out of ops.

Again, if you were not talking about ops--> FO IB, then ignore this post. Otherwise, well...you get my point. I really value everything you say on WSO, Marcus, but I'm just saying that this doesn't give ops people hope, though I may be wrongly assuming that was your intention and you may have been referring specifically to trading or other non-IB FO roles.

I agree with above posters that some people may just get sold into ops and regret it later. I know I’ve been networking with some people who advised me, as I’m pounding the pavement, to take “anything” at a major firm, i.e. any BB, “…even if it’s cleaning toilets, b/c the only thing that matters is the name of the company on the resume. It’s really easy to move within the firm, just get a job there first in any kind of role.” If I had listened to these ostensibly knowledgeable and experienced people, I’d be stuck in ops too.

Best of luck to all you monkeys fighting the good fight in ops. I’m trying to find a way into IB from a shitty position, too.

 

Dude, Ops is exactly like The Office. You work with people who are dispassionate. Your work means nothing and you have no hopes of doing anything interesting. Salary incrementally increases. No client interaction. No real human interaction. Basically hell on earth.

After 3 weeks I started hard core looking for a new job. After 2 months I was drinking heavily after work and basically just staring at the computer and work and talking to no one. I started missing days while interviewing and my boss called me in the office. He started lecturing me about the job and I told him "do you want me to quit and walk out right now or give you my two weeks". Shocked, he asked why. My reply "this job fucking sucks". After that he left me alone until I quick a month later.

That was probably one of the worst working experiences of my life. Do not do it.

 
bballman27:
I'm in the same position, stuck in an Ops job because I thought it would be much easier to get out. Any advice/success stories would be appreciated.

I would put the IB dream on hold and look for something more challenging, more interesting, in another field. Look at GE's leadership programs, J&J, etc. Look for something in treasury, credit analysis, Big 4 TAS, Duff & Phelps, something that is more interesting and has related skills or a better brand.

Ops at its core is supporting revenue generating areas. Find a revenue generating job. If it involves financial analysis, client interaction, leadership, etc then those are all skills that can be transferred to banking or an MBA. Find something that sparks your spirit, gives you a meaning and do that.

 
Anthony .:
bballman27:
I'm in the same position, stuck in an Ops job because I thought it would be much easier to get out. Any advice/success stories would be appreciated.

I would put the IB dream on hold and look for something more challenging, more interesting, in another field. Look at GE's leadership programs, J&J, etc. Look for something in treasury, credit analysis, Big 4 TAS, Duff & Phelps, something that is more interesting and has related skills or a better brand.

Ops at its core is supporting revenue generating areas. Find a revenue generating job. If it involves financial analysis, client interaction, leadership, etc then those are all skills that can be transferred to banking or an MBA. Find something that sparks your spirit, gives you a meaning and do that.

I couldnt agree more. I work in a F100 Ops position (supports M&A group) and I cant stand it. I've been trying to get out the past few years, but this damn job market is just awful. The front office (rev generating) is where the glory and motivation are. I'll be attending a top 15 full-time MBA program next fall and will do my best to get into consulting or IBD from there.

 

Marcus,

      Trade support is probably the one field that really allows for upward movement. I think saying if you can't get something out of a job then it is your fault is bullshit. Some kids don't know any better or they take a job with the best intentions. Sometimes these jobs are over sold to people. I was naive and didn't know any better. I explicitly told the interviews what I was looking for and what I expected and they smiled and nodded. 

     As for being intellectually impotent, that is complete bullshit. 
 
Roller4Life:
I've heard from many that operations is not a fun place to be. It is dry, redundant work all the time and you are not being exposed to front-office divisions such as Investment Banking. Instead you are forced to do work that receives little pay when compared to other divisions and the work is extremely boring

Is this accurate?

Yes

 

I work in hedge fund operations...check my stats...Im a first year analyst but I came from I-banking, so I've been working for a little less than two years, and I live in CT which is tremendously more tax friendly than NY. All in all, I did the numbers and I make 85% of the money I used to make, but I am 185% happier and actually have a life now!

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time
 

I used some of my contacts in the IB world to get phone screens, and eventually a few of them turned into face to face interviews. If you are short on contacts, try looking for opportunities on efinancial careers and other sites such as vault.com and hfforum to get listings. After you locate the listings, try to find a contact to CALL before you send an introductory email.

At hedge funds, information is very publicly limited, so do not be afraid to send emails if you cant find anyone to call, briefly describe what you want to do (be succinct and exact), tell them how far you are removed from school, and give them one highlight about you (I worked for Goldman etc.) attach your resume and hope for the best. The sites I just mentioned are great for entry level opportunities.

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time
 

Interesting... I used to design Hedge Fund allocation software and the people are the funds on the operations side seemed to be in the same boat as fund accounting people (operations for most other funds, although the fund side seems to be better than the custodian bank side).

Metals & Mining I-Banker
 

He may make 85% of what he used to make as an ANALYST, but the long-term potential is just not there in operations. In banking, if you rise up the corporate ladder, you can make millions. The same certainly isn't true for operations. Before you take this guy seriously, you should read what he wrote in the JPMorgan Honors Program thread..

If you're content to make 100-150k forever and live in a small house in the suburbs, operations may be for you. If you want the big house, sports car, vacation home, you should be in banking.

 
dav3100:
He may make 85% of what he used to make as an ANALYST, but the long-term potential is just not there in operations. In banking, if you rise up the corporate ladder, you can make millions. The same certainly isn't true for operations. Before you take this guy seriously, you should read what he wrote in the JPMorgan Honors Program thread..

If you're content to make 100-150k forever and live in a small house in the suburbs, operations may be for you. If you want the big house, sports car, vacation home, you should be in banking.

agreed. if you really give a shit what you start off at, theres plenty of tech companies that pay you 100k for 40 hours / week too (microsoft, google, etc.). people in banking are in it for the long-term options, not the short term.

same reason why so many fresh MBAs choose to go work for McKinsey. they start you off lower than all of the other I-Banks and consulting firms but the long-term path outweighs almost everything if you want to be a Fortune 500 C-suite exec.

 

Not an Investment Bank, although I left to do what I do now. lol. You guys know our salary numbers are never published. I gave first year's a glimpse of the pay scale to publish the statistics...

A little bit of reading material...

http://news.hedgeworld.efinancialcareers.com/ITEM_FR/newsItemId-6952

Also, for you PatekPhillipe...its not too late for you...lol

http://news.efinancialcareers.com/NEWS_ITEM/newsItemId-6822

I'm 23 with the first level of CFA down, and I left to take a senior analyst position in ops at a hedge fund giving me exposure to research, accounting and trading. B-schools continue to send me literature. (here's a tidbit, MIT (Sloan) has a soft spot for operations people...) I'm extremely happy. lol.

"Cut the burger into thirds, place it on the fries, roll one up homey..." - Epic Meal Time
 

a little more than 100-150 K all your life lol.

At the VP level you will make 220+ and MDs can make much more than that. I know a lehman IT developer couple of years out of school making 110K.

Its no IB pay by any standards, but its not too shabby either. If you can be successful, and rise up the ranks, you do OK. You won't be filthy rich, but you will be very well off. Of course, you will have a life all through your career.

Having said that, I would never do operations...because people stay frustrated and always want to shift to what they call the 'business side'. The people who succeed in OPs seem to be people who like it, and do it with a long term mentality

 

what about hedge fund ops - for a lot of funds thats the only way to get in out of undergrad. I may be forced to go that route not because I want to, but because I can't break into IB.

 

in any operations job at a bank in the US is lacking a high school diploma.

some people just don't care as much about their careeer, and operations is a career where you can work normal hours and make decent money.

 

if you don't care as much about your career, do something non-finance related. not exactly construction work, but something creative and fun. why deal with finance politics if you aren't doing anything productive?

 

working at a bank in opeations is a steady, low risk job. And you make more than working in operations for other industries.

it's the same question as to why stay in investement banking when you could move to a hedge fun and make more? b/c it's less risky.

 

nyc9982, that's fine. i just don't want people to fall into the misconception that it's any better than working as a paralegal in Dallas. if you are in ops at GS in NY, the fact that you have the GS name on your resume does NOT mean you are working an "exciting wall street job," despite the fact that your relatives in kansas think so.

_______________________________________ http://www.drmarkklein.blogspot.com/
 

i started my career in ops...it is defintely dead end, thats why i left after 2 yrs and doing ER now... I agree with you that some dont even have a hs diploma
(the 40 yr old analysts)... but that does not just apply to ops.... check sales/trading..

btw i must be an outlier.. 1540 sat... columbia...

 

...i started in ops and now trade prop at a major broker/dealer. I am not recomending it but it is only dead end if you make it dead end. I personally wouldnt trade the 1 year i did in the back-office and the two i did in middle office for any training program because I learned a ton about the mechanics of the products I now trade as opposed to a banker that learns nothing about markets. After those three years i could sit in an interview with experienced guys and really talk intelligently about the products they trade. Because of that I got a job I was totally unqualified for and was able to run with it when i actually showed up on the job. When we interview kids from banking programs it is laughable...no different then an undergrad. They know nothing about markets...maybe they have a view on the Fed or a stock they like but they have no chance of talking about the stuff we trade and they start way behind where I was when I got into the front office on the buyside. Not to mention the fact that I am ten times scrappier then the guys I work with who came from traditional backgrounds (both at my firm and people my age I talk to regularly at other firms). So to conclude, ops isnt good because you have to be more exceptional to do well but for trading I think it is better training then any analyst program..especially more complex FI and credit products.

 

Bondarb... true but seriously, who's going to move from banking to s&t? Besides, what you should be comparing yourself to is undergrad. You spent 3 years to learn the ropes. Surely the undergrads who are hired, after 3 years, would know as much as you did when you started.

 

"working at a bank in opeations is a steady, low risk job. And you make more than working in operations for other industries."

The low risk side of this is definitely NOT true. Compliance/Ops jobs are being outsourced to India as we speak. My best friend from college works at M/B/B and he has already advised BofA/JPM on what ops areas to outsource. If anyone works at those banks, you should know that within the next year there will be MAJOR restructuring announcements. I believe Citi already did theirs a few months ago.

And don't knock ops, I interned their sophomore summer and leveraged the experience to land a FT M&A job at a good ibank that has a very large financial parent (tho def not a BB)...my two cents

 

Is ops at a HF different than at a BB in regard to how it looks on your resume, exposure, exit ops, etc.

I know some funds recruit top notch undergrad, but other than that, ops is really the only way to go straight to the buy side.

Any thoughts?

 

...i am not in sales and trading i work on the buyside. S&T programs on the sell-side are totally different then trading on the buyside as you spend much of your time as an analyst learning about client relationships and how to sell. Trading may be different as I talk to traders less frequently and when i do the ones who talk to clients are generally more senior. After three years I do think i had a better handle on the products i trade then the people who are on the other side of the phone (ie salespeople who grew up in the front-office). This is not true of the average ops person but i put in tons of work out of the office reading and studying whereas kids in analyst programs assume they are learning all they need to know.

 
gurilla:
I work in ops for one simple reason, to gain access to the people in the firm that can make me that rare case and bring me into a better group. Thanks bondarb for making it so the rest of have something to shoot for.

ditto. Ive had access to alot of ppl from my BB across the firm. If you are very close to graduating and dont have an IBD job and thats where you want to be, your better off going into Ops and networking and meeting ppl who are where you want to be than working as a Marketing Associate(read: driving a redbull van around college campuses).

But I do see the perspective of the Orig Poster, if I was a first yr analyst that gets shit on all day, Id prob come on a message board and try to shit on the back office and make myself feel better about going home every night smelling like MD fecal matter... hang in there buddy, and rinse with vinegar.

FYI... I search the firm directory for people who have listed back office roles in their history because I feel they can relate more and are more willing to help... and Ive come across ALOT of ppl who started in ops and are now working front office roles.

 

The guy that post this was messaging me about all this. As far as i'm concerned everyone does what they have to do in order to grow as individuals. Not everyone wants to be an I-banker. Whatever route we must take to get where we are going doesnt need to be justified to the elite.

 
Best Response

...don't panic...put in a year or two and do a good job, learn everything you can, and then if your firm dosent hire out of ops into the front-office look for other junior trading-type jobs (if you dont want to trade/run money then I am not the right person to ask b/c that's all i ever wanted to do). Jobs are out there if you look around and become a sharp "market-person" who can talk the talk. But what you should really be doing also is enjoying yourself...when i was just out of college and in ops i spent way to much time worrying about my career and not enough time realizing that i was in the most stress-free time of my career. I really wish I had enjoyed working 9-5ish in Manhattan with no after-hours responsibility and just enough money to enjoy the city. So do what you have to do to manage your career but also enjoy the benefits of not getting those jobs you wanted out of college, you'll regret it later if you dont! Also dont be jealous of or worry about people who have better jobs...in fact be happy for them and try to learn from their success. Obviously when I was in ops I knew a ton of people my age who were making alot more money and doing more prestigous things then i was but i tried to never let it bum me out. In fact I would ask them questions about what they did, how they liked it, etc. so I could learn more about the industry. Many of them now ask me advice on how to get to the buyside and i try to help them out. 5 years from now maybe i'll be the one needing help again...

 

I'm glad this thread came along, because I'm actually sitting on a decision to make shortly regarding ops. I have been trying to break into corp. fin/equity research for quite sometime now, and it hasn't panned out. Went to a non-target, good gpa, just wasn't able to bridge that gap yet. I am interviewing right now for a hedge fund ops position, and I need to decide quickly if its the right move (should i get the offer).

Bondarb makes me feel a little better about it with how he describes his journey through ops, but it seems he was interested in trading. My biggest concern is, since I am interested in corporate finance/research, what skills will I gain through ops that I can transfer to that type of position. I already know the basic answer to this - the answer is none. But can I use a position in HF ops to go back to a top ten MBA? Can I bust my ass, read a million books, get my CFA, do a bunch of charity work, and then transition to research or IB?

I know what I want to do, but obviously have to go the long route in getting there, so I have to ask people who have been through it already. I need to know the real answers to these questions before I make a potentially career changing decision.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

Calvin, first of all ops positions at hedge funds are becoming more and more competative for undergrads to obtain. Believe it or not, a lot of the ops employees(at the fund where I work)come from reputable schools (think of schools like top three lib. arts). These same kids would probably have no problem getting a job in an IBD but they chose otherwise. It is extremely difficult (not impossible) to land a front office job at a fund right out of school because you really haven't proven yourself and know absolutely nothing about the markets. So the next best thing is operation/trade support. This isn't a dead end position on the buy side unless you make it.

I don't quite understand why you are so hell bent on eventually getting an eq. research job at a BB when these jobs already exist on the buyside. If you are a hard worker and intelligent, opportuniites may open up (especially if the fund you are looking at is small). If they don't pan out at that fund, use all of the product knowledge that you've learned and leverage that into another position. Repeat this process until you get into an equity research role somewhere (plenty of HF job opportunities out there considering the ~8,000 funds around).

Btw, I was in the same position as you upon graduating from school. I went with a middle office role at a reputable fund and will most likely leverage it into a position on a desk (Trader Assistant type role). It's my ultimate goal to trade or do research. I will most likely not stop until I get there. I will also most likely never work at a large bank as there is no reason to leave the buyside.

My advice would be to work hard, learn as much as you can about all products, and keep you eyes on your goals. In all honesty, it seems you are second guessing your decission because of the buzz you hear. Sometimes (mostly all of the time) the best opportunities come from not following the crowd. Had Warren Buffett followed all the buzz, I doubt he'd be where he is today.

Hope this helps...

 

I have an offer from a BB ops division. My only concern at this point is how much the salary progresses with time. I know it doesn't compare even remotely to banking or s/t, but I want to know roughly how much you would make as a third year analyst and what kind of salary increase you get when you are promoted to associate and later to vp. Does anybody have any information about this?

Thanks in advance,

Cachiman

 

One time I got the "you've got to put the time back in for the time we spent on you" during an ops interview as a reason why I should spend two years doing ops crap while waiting to possibly move to a higher position.. wow.

But anyways.. ops at a hedgefund is actually hard to get. Ops at an investment bank is really just ops, compliance, and cleaning up the mess of the front office. As a last resort, take it. But somebody here suggested moving down the competitive ladder and trying to get into a boutique instead for a front office position. Also try offices in non-core city areas that need analysts more. First try any place you know somebody. Any advantage you can get is really helpful.

 

I'm posting in this old thread b/c I have an offer in IB Ops in NYC, as well as an offer as a Research Assistant for a well-known HF in Greenwich. It's not equity research or anything - just a general research position, wherein I'm obtaining economic/financial data for traders and other groups and packaging it for them. Is this "lower down" on the ladder than ops? Or is it higher (in your opinion)? Additionally, would it be a wiser decision b/c it's in an HF (with bonuses and all)?

 
Ovechkin:
I'm posting in this old thread b/c I have an offer in IB Ops in NYC, as well as an offer as a Research Assistant for a well-known HF in Greenwich. It's not equity research or anything - just a general research position, wherein I'm obtaining economic/financial data for traders and other groups and packaging it for them. Is this "lower down" on the ladder than ops? Or is it higher (in your opinion)? Additionally, would it be a wiser decision b/c it's in an HF (with bonuses and all)?

I dont think thats a dilema. eff ops. Take the HF.

 

Why even compare ops and i-banking? Apples and Oranges people... The hours are good, no stress, nice life. Become an entrepreneur? Wtf? I think I won't even bother commenting on that. Somebody mentioned how w/ ops they knew more than a salesman, and thus could become a trader more easily. Great. So what? I'll be doing sales because that's what I want to do; if I wanted to become a trader I would have become one and would have gone into trading right away... Same goes for the argument about M&A guys knowing nothing about markets; so who gives a f...? They will just go get an MBA or go to a PE firm or something. If you go into M&A you obviously didn't plan on going into markets... Unless you made a terrible mistake. Different people follow different career paths, no job is better than another. What might be good for you might be not interesting for someone else. The job the guy had in office space? Well I did something like that when i was in college and I had a blast. I just like selling better. I couldn't do M&A for the life of me, but different people can do different things. One of my high school buddy is a clerk at some internet coffee, he smokes weed all day and is in love with life.


Remember, you will always be a salesman, no matter how fancy your title is. - My ex girlfriend

 

Your reaction is so childish and arrogant... typical of the overconfident analyst. Keep in mind that a lot of ppl don't go to Ivey school, aren't as "smart read xls proficient" and still like the idea of working for a big bank. Further, lots of ppl are just happy with a 8-5 job that has no pressure and pay OK (better than most companies in NYC). Finally what would your bank do if nobody wanted this "low level" job? Answer: your MD would order you to stay 4 more hours per day to do it, you would do it like an obedient analyst and would love every second of it ha ha ha :-) (segregation of duty aside)

Jokes aside, respect the little people... you need them cause you surely don't want to do what they do and can't operate without them.

 

I'm sorry, being an analyst in any division of a bank is not much more exciting than being a paralegal. Only being a paralegal isn't an obligatory step to becoming a lawyer. Only you take more shit from your bosses. And a monkey could do your job.

Operations is as important a part of the bank as the front office client-facing golden retrievers. If you need a reminder, we have the airlines to remind us.

This is why I'm going to law school.....that way, I'm only semireplaceable. You can't hire Joe Shmoe off the street to write up a merger agreement, or write a legal memo for that matter.

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-

"We are lawyers! We sue people! Occasionally, we get aggressive and garnish wages, but WE DO NOT ABDUCT!" -Boston Legal-
 

I worked in ops for one summer and absolutely hated every second of it. All I did was data entry for three months. Although, I did get to see how much everybody had in their P.A. and it inspired me even more to become a banker

 

the same job in 4h... what I am saying is that I don't think analysts are so much above the back-office that they can make fun of them... they do what they're asked to do... and on a per hour basis probably make less than back-office folks. No matter where you stand, arrogance is not helping in any way. That's it... but what do I know, I never was an analyst :-))

 

I know in the previous posts ppl mentioned that HF Ops is something that is quite a viable option coming out of undergrad b/c if you work at it hard enough that can eventually translate into a trading assistant role on a desk somewhere on the buyside

Does that also apply to a middle office/trade support role at a prestigious and large Asset Management firm? (I'm talking like BlackRock, Fidelity, PIMCO, etc.) Would you guys say that such a position would be more challenging and prestigious than Ops at a BB?

 

I doubt the transfer would be "more difficult" now.

To answer the question re: Asset Management. I'm sure the reason hedge fund ops is better simply b/c most funds are relatively small. You can make more of an impact. Not so at a huge AM like BlackRock etc. I'm sure the likelihood of transferring is similar to that of IB ops. Possible, but exceptions and not the rule. Further, if you try hard enough, you can make something else altogether happen. I know a guy who did Asset Management Ops at a BB and is now involved in structuring at a Big 4. Different path, but is definitely a front-office from back-office switch.

Cheers.

 

I have to choose b/w a HF (operations)(TORONTO) and big 4 corporate finance (UAE). I wanted to stay in North america after studying here, but at this point big 4 CF seems like a better option even though its outside NA. Long term I don't plan to go into trading, but maybe a research analyst. After having the interview at HF, they told me that starting in OPS is a good way to see what an analyst, trader, quants do and decide if you will actually like it, and if front office opportunities exist, I can advance to becoming an analyst in a year or so.

on the other hand, big 4 CF in UAE is a graduate program where I will be mostly assisting in modeling the typical M&A things.

need to decide soon

thanks

 

1 word.... DUBAI, nuff said.

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

I had an opps class. I don't know how many of you saw Gremlins 2, but the prof sounded exactly like the smart gremlin. He kind of looked like him as well. That class was like an anemia for my brain.

 

UAE: Tax-Free so right off the bat, 60k in UAE is like making 90k in US #2, theres ALOT of perks which do not exist in the US. Ex... I have a cousin who after graduating moved to the UAE to work in Finance... he has 0% interest financing on his car, the bank helped him secure a winning bid for a really sought after property (which flies off the mkt) and his firm got him VERY attractive financing for this as well. In addition to that, theres just a lifestyle you cant really live in the US unless your making a ton of money (maid, chauffeur, etc...)

 

Marcus-your right on what you say. I do not disagree. I am just stating what has been my experience. I continuously ask for work, but there is none. There is no way I can have a chance to stand out or prove my intellect. There is no room for growth and everyone at the office seems content with this. Ops is seriously one of the worst decisions of my life. I'm not complaining(or trying not to), just trying to helps out those that are recruiting right now by letting them know what they are getting into. I have been in contact with a few local firms about other opportunities, so I feel like there is something to look forward to everyday.

 

Listen, you have to eat and put a roof over your head and if you are a beast people will take notice so if you have an ops position you can do whatever you want. I don't want to be a debby downer, just talking about my experience. I was doe eyed and didn't realize what I was getting into. I am very active, very hard charging and when I ran into the reality that Ops, in my experience, was a dead end I got really defeated. I didn't slack, I didn't blow it off, I just lost my heart.

I think my experience is a common one. It doesn't mean you are a loser or you can't handle a different job, it just means you took something that isn't for you our of ignorance or necessity. How many people worked a shit job during high school, but did it because they needed the check? This is a common experience. My issue is I feel that so many kids get wrapped up with Ops because they dream of the name on the business card.

@Cmoss - If I had to choose I would pick compliance. I feel like it is more important.

@Everyone else - My Ops experience solidified my resolve and I networked like a monster. I ended up going into a leadership program at HSBC bank. I didn't go into IBD, not trying to say I did. What I did do was go into a program that challenged me more. I loved it and stayed with the bank for a couple years after. The financial crisis hit my division pretty hard and while I did not lose my job I lost my path. After a 5 months of reaching out to contacts and mentors and interview at other banks I decided to get my MSF, something I had wanted to do since undergrad.

That's me, not everyone else. The one thing I have learned is to be true to yourself. I grew up watching my dad work a job he hated because he had a family to pay for. That experience burnt into my brain a desire to do what I love and not be miserable for a paycheck. Some might say that is stupid, but we each have different life experiences that shape us.

If you enjoy Ops, that's cool. You are not a loser. I am just retelling my experience, an experience that many of my coworkers had and many of my friends have. Do not get caught in the quick sand. Give it a shot, but if in your gut you know it is wrong find something else and don't look back.

 
Anthony .:
That's me, not everyone else. The one thing I have learned is to be true to yourself. I grew up watching my dad work a job he hated because he had a family to pay for. That experience burnt into my brain a desire to do what I love and not be miserable for a paycheck. Some might say that is stupid, but we each have different life experiences that shape us.

If you enjoy Ops, that's cool. You are not a loser. I am just retelling my experience, an experience that many of my coworkers had and many of my friends have. Do not get caught in the quick sand. Give it a shot, but if in your gut you know it is wrong find something else and don't look back.

Follow this advice. There are plenty of career paths that can be challenging, satisfying and provide a good life. Not all of us are going to be able to go undergrad / business school => IBD => PE / HF / VC or become a baller MD - hell, a chunk of the front office will be out of a job in a few months anyway so once you get there it's not certain that you'll get to stay there.

Just because you've 'failed' at a given hurdle - and I wouldn't necessarily call getting into a decent paying ops position a failure - doesn't mean you can't dust yourself off and try for something else that challenges you. Just be sure to approach it smart - don't quit until you've got another paycheck on the way.

@ the OP: $10k isn't much in the grand scheme of things. If you find an opportunity that you really want to pursue, bite the bullet and pay back the bonus.

“I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are.” - Hicks
 
Anthony .:
@Everyone else - My Ops experience solidified my resolve and I networked like a monster. I ended up going into a leadership program at HSBC bank. I didn't go into IBD, not trying to say I did. What I did do was go into a program that challenged me more. I loved it and stayed with the bank for a couple years after. The financial crisis hit my division pretty hard and while I did not lose my job I lost my path. After a 5 months of reaching out to contacts and mentors and interview at other banks I decided to get my MSF, something I had wanted to do since undergrad. .

I definitely fit this, luckily I knew this wasn't what I wanted to do after an Ops internship at a BB. Since graduating (non-target) in May I've been interning at a Commercial Bank as credit analyst and that puts me in a far better position IMO, even if it's not a BB. And if nothing materializes after this recruiting season, I will probably push for a FT and just keep networking, while working my way towards B-School. Not bitter, but after my past experiences, can't really see myself working for a BB, just with all the red tape bullshit and less interaction with Execs, unlike smaller firms. OK, maybe a little bitter, I would take a BB job in a heartbeat right now lol.

Anthony, all your advice on this board (my resume post a few months ago too!) reminds me of my mentor that I meet when I was at my first internship in the credit analyst position (where I am now). Before my BB internship, (have to give credit, HR is good at what they get paid for, especially talking up Ops) I was lured in by the name and all the bullshit they threw at me but because of my mentor I've stayed away from Ops jobs full time.

New Yorker:
Thank god for this thread. I just spoke with a guy from ops at goldman today and he almost convinced me.
I've taken pretty much any interview I can after graduation just to stay on my toes and keep from getting rusty, and I go in knowing I don't want the position (which always seems to work better for me) but am still amazed how well they can spin the bullshit. A few times I'm just like this sounds pretty solid but then realize it's pay, location, any FT offer at the moment is what is really calling my attention and snap out of it. My advice is just keep pushing even if it's the smallest firm that no one's ever heard ever (granted you actually get experience), this is advice I wish I would of had myself, especially going to school in Boston with so many firms in a concentrated area you practically walk by them everyday and not know they exist until you look for them and be like "fuck it was right there".
 
fully_amazing:
Anthony .:
@Everyone else - My Ops experience solidified my resolve and I networked like a monster. I ended up going into a leadership program at HSBC bank. I didn't go into IBD, not trying to say I did. What I did do was go into a program that challenged me more. I loved it and stayed with the bank for a couple years after. The financial crisis hit my division pretty hard and while I did not lose my job I lost my path. After a 5 months of reaching out to contacts and mentors and interview at other banks I decided to get my MSF, something I had wanted to do since undergrad. .

I definitely fit this, luckily I knew this wasn't what I wanted to do after an Ops internship at a BB. Since graduating (non-target) in May I've been interning at a Commercial Bank as credit analyst and that puts me in a far better position IMO, even if it's not a BB. And if nothing materializes after this recruiting season, I will probably push for a FT and just keep networking, while working my way towards B-School. Not bitter, but after my past experiences, can't really see myself working for a BB, just with all the red tape bullshit and less interaction with Execs, unlike smaller firms. OK, maybe a little bitter, I would take a BB job in a heartbeat right now lol.

Anthony, all your advice on this board (my resume post a few months ago too!) reminds me of my mentor that I meet when I was at my first internship in the credit analyst position (where I am now). Before my BB internship, (have to give credit, HR is good at what they get paid for, especially talking up Ops) I was lured in by the name and all the bullshit they threw at me but because of my mentor I've stayed away from Ops jobs full time.

New Yorker:
Thank god for this thread. I just spoke with a guy from ops at goldman today and he almost convinced me.
I've taken pretty much any interview I can after graduation just to stay on my toes and keep from getting rusty, and I go in knowing I don't want the position (which always seems to work better for me) but am still amazed how well they can spin the bullshit. A few times I'm just like this sounds pretty solid but then realize it's pay, location, any FT offer at the moment is what is really calling my attention and snap out of it. My advice is just keep pushing even if it's the smallest firm that no one's ever heard ever (granted you actually get experience), this is advice I wish I would of had myself, especially going to school in Boston with so many firms in a concentrated area you practically walk by them everyday and not know they exist until you look for them and be like "fuck it was right there".

I see a good point in your comment. Interview just for the hack of interviewing and getting better at that!!! hehe

Do what you want not what you can!
 

Yeah Ops sucks, know some friends stuck there.

Look outside IB too. Corp Banking and Trade Finance are two really interesting banking groups.

__________________________ if you ain't first, you last
 

Wow I thought I was one of the only few people who hated it as much. Glad to know theres other people in the same boat. I'm about 10 weeks into the job and am already looking other places.

Coming from a good non-target school working hard all throughout college only to come to the office and surf the internet (including WSO) all day absolutely sucks. My experiences mirror eyelikecheese and Anthony so I'm not gonna repeat the details but I have tried very hard to do additional work besides the day to day processing.

Good luck to you all.

DJR

 

So the overwhelming majority of the people here hates the Operations. This leads me to believe that it is really bad. The worst part is that it doesn't intellectually stimulate you or let's you grow. I am recruiting right now and looking at revenue generating jobs, but let's say i don't anything and my only option is operations, would you guys advise sitting home and continue looking for revenue generation job or take the operations gig and try to network while i am there, since it seems like there is a lot of time there anyway. Thanks for the advice as i am about to cancel my operations interviews lol (jk).

Do what you want not what you can!
 
bodyo:
So the overwhelming majority of the people here hates the Operations. This leads me to believe that it is really bad. The worst part is that it doesn't intellectually stimulate you or let's you grow. I am recruiting right now and looking at revenue generating jobs, but let's say i don't anything and my only option is operations, would you guys advise sitting home and continue looking for revenue generation job or take the operations gig and try to network while i am there, since it seems like there is a lot of time there anyway. Thanks for the advice as i am about to cancel my operations interviews lol (jk).

If you've got nothing else, take the ops job and then use the income (and from the sounds of it, lots of free time) to network and get something better - just don't fall into the despondency trap and not do anything about a situation you're not happy with. You are so much more appealing for an employer if you are already employed as it shows that you're at the very least able to get your ass to work every day and perform at a good enough level not to get fired straight away.

“I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullshit. We're a virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are.” - Hicks
 

It's fucking dire!!!!!

I'm sat here on an intern rotation of a f500 finance department in ops and it's shocking; the people have no drive or ambition. You can't win in ops, you can only ever lose, and by that I mean if you're doing your job impeccably, above average no one notices, however smart you are in ops you can't stand out unless you're surrounded by imbeciles (which you often are, but that's not the point).

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 
Oreos:
It's fucking dire!!!!!

I'm sat here on an intern rotation of a f500 finance department in ops and it's shocking; the people have no drive or ambition. You can't win in ops, you can only ever lose, and by that I mean if you're doing your job impeccably, above average no one notices, however smart you are in ops you can't stand out unless you're surrounded by imbeciles (which you often are, but that's not the point).

You perform well and get noticed when you step outside your expected role and do much better than someone with your experience/level should be doing. The thing with a position like operations is, you have less opportunity to do that than say someone in banking or trading. Because they're doing more meaningful work and can look to make suggestions and take on more responsibilities. If you handling failed trades or processing ISDA documents, there's less opportunity to stand out. But its still there. I stand by my first statement, if you're not capable of getting a valuable experience out of a shitty job, than you're deserving of that shitty job and not much else.

For one thing, Operations isn't contributing to the bottom line according to you fuckers. Thats why you're useless. Because you immediately write-off your role as meaningless and deem it impossible to make a valuable contribution. Ops isn't contributing to the top line, but it most certainly is contributing to the bottom line. You focus should be on reducing costs as thats the only measurable contribution your department makes. One would assume that the more successful MDs in Ops are capable of consistently tightening things up, making them run smoother and doing so while reducing costs. So at a junior level, you should be trying to step outside your role and try to take initiative to develop something that would accomplish this.

 
Marcus_Halberstram:
Oreos:
It's fucking dire!!!!!

I'm sat here on an intern rotation of a f500 finance department in ops and it's shocking; the people have no drive or ambition. You can't win in ops, you can only ever lose, and by that I mean if you're doing your job impeccably, above average no one notices, however smart you are in ops you can't stand out unless you're surrounded by imbeciles (which you often are, but that's not the point).

You perform well and get noticed when you step outside your expected role and do much better than someone with your experience/level should be doing. The thing with a position like operations is, you have less opportunity to do that than say someone in banking or trading. Because they're doing more meaningful work and can look to make suggestions and take on more responsibilities. If you handling failed trades or processing ISDA documents, there's less opportunity to stand out. But its still there. I stand by my first statement, if you're not capable of getting a valuable experience out of a shitty job, than you're deserving of that shitty job and not much else.

For one thing, Operations isn't contributing to the bottom line according to you fuckers. Thats why you're useless. Because you immediately write-off your role as meaningless and deem it impossible to make a valuable contribution. Ops isn't contributing to the top line, but it most certainly is contributing to the bottom line. You focus should be on reducing costs as thats the only measurable contribution your department makes. One would assume that the more successful MDs in Ops are capable of consistently tightening things up, making them run smoother and doing so while reducing costs. So at a junior level, you should be trying to step outside your role and try to take initiative to develop something that would accomplish this.

as i said i'm only here on a rotational basis so coming from the sales and structuring teams this is deadly. and no doubt there is value to be gained out of the experience, why else would it be on a rotation, but that doesn't mean it isn't boring or frustrating.

"After you work on Wall Street it’s a choice, would you rather work at McDonalds or on the sell-side? I would choose McDonalds over the sell-side.” - David Tepper
 
Marcus_Halberstram:

You perform well and get noticed when you step outside your expected role and do much better than someone with your experience/level should be doing. The thing with a position like operations is, you have less opportunity to do that than say someone in banking or trading. Because they're doing more meaningful work and can look to make suggestions and take on more responsibilities. If you handling failed trades or processing ISDA documents, there's less opportunity to stand out. But its still there. I stand by my first statement, if you're not capable of getting a valuable experience out of a shitty job, than you're deserving of that shitty job and not much else.

For one thing, Operations isn't contributing to the bottom line according to you fuckers. Thats why you're useless. Because you immediately write-off your role as meaningless and deem it impossible to make a valuable contribution. Ops isn't contributing to the top line, but it most certainly is contributing to the bottom line. You focus should be on reducing costs as thats the only measurable contribution your department makes. One would assume that the more successful MDs in Ops are capable of consistently tightening things up, making them run smoother and doing so while reducing costs. So at a junior level, you should be trying to step outside your role and try to take initiative to develop something that would accomplish this.

I did an internship over the summer in operations at a BB. I had no other choice and I took just to get my foot in the door. Contrary to what you believe, a lot of what contributes to cost cutting in Ops relies on outsourcing and strong IT. Even some of the biggest banks like Citi have terrible IT support. I dealt with them and had problems on contract comparisons and rate changes almost every day. The time spent resolving those unnecessary problems leads to wasted time and wasted money, but with some big lenders like BGI, BGA, NRTN, etc. You sometimes have no choice but to suck it up. Anyone in prime brokerage knows this for a fact.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of settlement/support work is based in India. Dealing with people are on the other side of the globe that don't have a good understanding of the business or even basic English makes a job in operations a nightmare. Yes its true, that Ops should be contributing to the bottom line, but for most analysts, associates and VPs, its almost impossible to make significant change because you have no control over the budget given to ops.

Also, a lot of product lines have licensed software assigned to certain computers based on the section you are working in. If you see the fixed income trade support team swamped for example and you are working in fixed income trade settlement, chances are you won't be able to help them even if you knew how to because of that lapse in software. Costcutting is taken to an extreme in Ops. I remember at work this summer I would ask the associates and VPs around me about certain things in Ops and how they could be improved and nobody had a clue. All I was ever told to do was to grind it out and do the best work I could.

You can't really learn much about the business from those people as they have no solid background. The SVP of the groups I worked in ops this summer had a degree from HS. He never went to college. And I know so many people in Ops that have no basic educational background yet are gladly smashing the numpads on their keyboard everyday thinking they are doing amazing work. Luckily for me, my ops team had good relationships with the traders they supported and I spent a good deal of time with them. Granted stock loan traders aren't really that bright (they don't need to be), but they were making shitloads of money and partied and played golf every other week with traders from other banks.

All in all, I just want to say that a job in the back office doesn't give you room to improve or get noticed. You get labeled as an ops specialist and like many who do ops, you become a lifer if you cant get out. Unlike in income generating divisions of a bank where personal performance can set you apart and get you recognition, the work you do in operations relies on the work of others and certain factors like IT that are out of your hands.

 

has anyone considered using the ops jobs to get to the internal job postings? I know some banks make you wait 6-12 months, but I can say as a fact there are more interal jobs that posted externally.

 

Thanks for the advice Anthony and everyone! I feel better now that I am doing some of the things people have mentioned in this thread -- I am currently "stuck" in an Ops position for about a year, but I have been networking like crazy, interviewed a few places for more front office jobs, using my free time to study for the CFA, and have also been speaking to people about internal postings.

Hopefully one of these paths will work out soon!

 

I am an avid reader of this website and have never commented before, but felt compelled after reading all these stories similar to mine. I graduated from a non-target with an extremely high gpa and decent internship, and the jobs available at the time were a joke. Took a job in operations because the analyst positions I was interviewing for didnt pan out. I definitely agree that the people I work with have no drive or ambition, and are completely incompetent. I feel like I could write a macro that could eliminate half my department. The environment in operations is one of the saddest I've ever been in; extremely dull and boring, monotonous, no human interaction, no incentive to do better, and literally no way to move up without killing your immediate superior and taking his/her place. When I first started I asked my co-workers what their plans were for the future, where they wanted to be, etc. and they told me they haven't even thought about it. My direct superior has been in the same position for... FIFTEEN YEARS earning minimal pay raises but no promotions. I have literally begged for more work, strived to participate in all company events, gone the extra mile in everything I do but none of it matters. Operations is a black hole, and yes I am bitter. I have a feeling a lot of highly qualified, bright, ambitious individuals who graduated into this mess in 09-10 were blindsided and ended up in ops. The only benefits of all this free time are that I can study for my cfa and my golf handicap has improved significantly. So in conclusion, to all my fellow colleagues suffering in operations, keep your head up and keep trying to get out.

 

Just chiming in, about 40% of my responsibilities are Ops, the other 60% are what you'd call revenue generating. It can make for some long weeks, even though I'm not in the office as much as an IB analyst.

Those 40% make me want to jam a knife in my eye some days. Generation and submission of trade files is painful, scheduling and calling can be even worse. Coordinating a prime, an executing and an introducing broker AND your building's IT AND your own IT consultant to fix a tiny problem that is breaking your business? Painful, and you're only going to get grief for having the problem show up in the first place. Most people in operations are fantastic at sweeping problems under the rug, which I think is somewhat despicable (great future in politics though).

The really painful thing in Operations is when you actually get curious and figure out how the whole system of your business works. Trust me, that can be one of the most painful realizations ever.

To those of you unfortunate enough to do operations full-time? If you like it, dig the pay, the name on the card and the work/life balance, just try and reduce costs and get promoted. If you don't, network, network, network and flee. Don't quit (I try not to) and try and move up or sideways asap. Being unemployed in NYC with rent due and unsympathetic parents can be a real ball-buster.

At least I have good incentives to pick good investments...

"Dude, not trying to be a dick here, but your shop looks like a frontrunner for the cover of Better Boilerrooms & Chophouses or Bucketshop Quarterly." -Uncle Eddie
 

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16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

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From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”