As a sophomore undergrad, how can I best position myself to get into a good Ph.D. program? I plan on doing a masters beforehand, and I was wondering if it would be in my best interest to seek out work experience prior to applying to Ph.D. programs or if I should just do research and work towards publications at my University (which is a top 25 school).
What are the requirements for a Top 25 Ph.D. in Finance?
Getting into a top Ph.D. in Finance program is extremely competitive. A firm foundation in math is essential as is economics. To set yourself apart, a letter from a well-published professor is going to give you an edge. If you can get yourself an internship with this professor, even better.
Any and all experience you can get prior to your Ph.D. application will be useful. The most effective approach is getting published in a top finance publication, however with the limited research knowledge and experience received in an undergrad, this can prove difficult.
Finance related work experience and internships are valuable as they display your dedication and work ethic but they are not likely going to be enough for your Ph.D. application. What they will do is give you a better of an idea what a career in finance would be like and if you would prefer to be in a bank/corporate setting or academia post-graduation.
Finance Ph.D. Ranking
Take a look at some of the top-ranked business schools according to Bloomberg
Top finance Ph.Ds are more competitive than any entry-level job within banking. A publication always helps. Research experience helps more than internships but competitive internships (top name bank etc.) have value because they're a signal that you're capable of working hard.Admission to the top 25 schools is essentially a lottery. Average GMAT for Chicago's finance Ph.D. was 760+ for instance. Work hard, do your math courses, do your economic courses, get good recommendation letters from well-published finance profs (try to do research internships with them). Independent research won't get you very far because as an undergrad, you're just not trained well enough to do it to a high level.
What do Finance Ph.Ds do after Graduating?
A Ph.D. in Finance will set you up for a position at a quantitive trading desk. They land fewer jobs with I-banks and more often work behind the scenes and are generally less involved directly with clients as their reputation tends to be that they are more academic and less business oriented. What it does set you up for, however, is a career in academia as a professor or researcher.
I-banks generally have economists and market strategists (not sure who gets these jobs and how) that generally most of these people carry PhDs.
The trend at most quant trading desks seems to lean more towards the physics, mathematics, statistics PhDs.It's a great degree to have if you want to break into trading. To be honest, a Finance Ph.D. is basically only beneficial to people who want to become college professors, which has its perks (ridiculously short hours, low-stress environment, and great pay assuming you can get a job at a half-decent college).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnn4Ny67DY4
I was talking a bit ago with an MD at an MM I-bank and someone asked him a similar question. He responded with, while anything is possible, attaining a Ph.D. in Finance won't really help your chances to get into I-banking all that much. He personally felt that people who go this route tend to get too used to the culture and routine that is involved with school, and are better equipped to become a professor than to attempt to enter the business world.
Academic-based positions can be extremely lucrative and appealing due to the great benefits and hours but if you’re keen to work with clients and in the front end of things, it would probably be more book education than you need.
Read More about Finance Ph.Ds at Wall Street Oasis
- Ph.D. Yah or Nah?
- Finance Ph.D. vs. Finance MBA
- Any Value to a Summer Internship before doing a Ph.DProgram?
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It's fairly difficult. Princeton admits 1-2 PhDs each year. Same with the other top ten schools.
My advice is to write a paper that gets published in a Big Three journal (Journal of Finance, Journal of Financial Economics, Review of Financial Studies.) If you can do that, you should get in just about anywhere.
Wow, are non-ivies (say, top 30 schools) a little easier? How about a publication in a good health economics journal? (I hope to get more involved in healthcare finance research)
Would my undergrad summers best be utilized by doing research or internships at F500 or investment banks?
Top finance PhDs are more competitive than any entry level job within banking. A publication always helps. Research experience helps more than internships but competitive internships (top name bank etc.) have value because they're a signal that you're capable of working hard.
Admission to the top 25 schools is essentially a lottery. Average GMAT for Chicago's finance PhD was 760+ for instance. Work hard, do your math courses, do your econ courses, get good recommendation letters from well published finance profs (try to do research internships with them). Independent research won't get you very far because as an undergrad, you're just not trained well enough to do it to a high level.
Finally, don't post here, post on urch.com and read econjobrumors.com . People here are a little bit retarded and think a PhD is something you do if you don't get a job and you want to be lazy. A finance assistant prof (ie straight out of PhD) at a top 25 school will get $200k+ for 9 months a year and a professorial lifestyle. Hell, even PhD students get a $30k stipend (and can raise external financing for the program). It's not as much as you get paid in industry, but it's pretty excellent when you consider the lifestyle and the fact that you don't have to wade through as much bullcrap in your career.
How are the results for attending a program outside the top 30 or even top 50? Does it get increasingly tough to get tenure and industry opportunities?
Also, I was on academic probation during my freshman year due to poor grades. If I bounce back to about a 3.7 GPA or so by time of application, would it come back to bite me?
Thank you for your response, it helped greatly!
Between Harrison Hong, Markus Brunnermeier, and Ben Bernanke, we have our fair share of research on the financial markets.
Everyone has access to WRDS; everyone can crank out an analysis and figure out if there's something publishable in about a week's time; and the papers are examined blindly. This is something any 21 year old with Excel and WRDS can do; it's not exactly like this is 1978 and some 18 year old is trying to invent the PC in his parents' California garage. (Oh wait.)
Ask a tough question for which there is financial or economic data to answer it with. Then find an appropriate journal to submit your analysis to. They don't really consider the fact that you're an undergrad until the decision to publish has already been made.
Get something published- just make sure you have something really interesting. The JoF's submission fee is something like $250 and they have a twelve week turnaround time.
just u are, idiots
just ure retarded
The market is very good, solid 6 figure salaries for starting associate professors. Pretty much everything you read about getting into economics PhD programs can be cross applied to finance PhD programs. The most improtant things are going to be:
Also look into econ PhDs where you can concentrate in financial economics. They won't care about interning at a F500 or whatever, it's irrelevant.
(the reason I mentioned Etula there in the last paragraph is not because he's a retard or anything but because his asset pricing paper was mentioned on Falkenblog yesterday http://falkenblog.blogspot.com/2013/01/is-broker-dealer-leverage-elusiv… and I really wasn't convinced by it yet this guy is an "asset pricing expert" in QIS at GSAM)
How difficult is getting into an accounting phd program? What undergrad/MS concentrations would set me up best for this and/or finance?
As for your undergrad, it's not super important. Undergraduate accounting tends to be way more practical than what research is. Your best bets are math, econ, statistics and finance, with a few accounting courses so that you understand the very basic concepts. After those come engineering, physics etc. Essentially, you just need to be able to show that you can handle the very quantitative courseload. Often, you'll need to have done a few basic courses in micro-economics and finance, but this is not a hard requirement at all schools. Some schools (Stanford comes to mind, MIT too I think) also require some programming proficiency so it makes sense to do a bit of compsci as well.
If you have a trading strategy that can generate a big enough sharpe ratio, it's not too tough to get it published in the JQFA. And if it's big enough and obvious enough to raise a lot of doubt about the EMH or CAPM, you're now talking about a big three publication.
You can vet a trading strategy in about three days in industry. It took me a week to come up with something that can consistently generate a Sharpe of 2.
Most of the quants who held Finance PhDs I worked with in industry were published multiple times in grad school. Seriously, it's not all that tough. And it doesn't really matter your school's ranking- it matters what you, personally get published. Attending a school with a brand name can also be helpful, but you're only the sum of your work product.
Bottom line: If you want into grad school, get something published.
Just randomly picked 3 top 10 schools that showed CVs of their current students / job market candidates. Most of them have no publications, a few have one paper with a supervisor or something. You don't get a top 3 publication for figuring out a trading rule, you don't even get a JPM or FAJ for that. No one cares, it's probably the result of data mining or ignoring something like liquidity/trading costs etc..
And what do you mean by quant? You mean someone working derivs, or a quant as in someone who specializes in quantitative investing? Basically mathematical finance vs. asset pricing? Because in mathematics and physics it's a lot easier to publish than in finance, articles are much shorter and take less time to get through.
If getting a top journal publication was easy, leading professors wouldn't travel half-way around the world to present papers at seminars and get comments on them.
Ok, so someone had the neat idea of running a regression of hedge fund performance against the percentage of portfolios that they disclose through amendments. Woohoo! Journal of Finance! Oh, wow, it was probably mostly done by a grad student too (Yuehua Tang).
As for the strategies, of course you have to take bids and asks. These are reported in nearly every market database. You also have to be conservative in estimating market impact for larger strategies- the fact is that you may not be able to execute some strategy with millions of dollars off of a bid or ask of 500 shares, but there are a number of models commercially available for empirically guessing how much such a transaction would move the market.
If you (1) have a valid arbitrage strategy that WILL make money and (2) use it to make a convincing argument about financial theory, you pretty much have a publication in either the Big Three or one of the next few journals.
Of course, sometimes the best strategies and ideas never get published.
1.) Come up with a theory about the markets. Ideally one that relies on data that wasn't available 20 years ago. (This may rule out theories on cash equities) 2.) Design a strategy to test that theory. 3.) Figure out whether the results show anything. Ideally, try to have a natural experiment with a control and a test. 4.) Figure out how interesting and meaningful those results are. 5.) Clean it up and try to publish it.
You should be able to cycle through 1-4 in 40 hours of work. 5 will take another ~80 hours before you submit to your first journal. Also it's wise to submit to some repository so your idea doesn't get scooped.
I just noticed you also asked about the UK in your first post. So I'll mention that briefly as well.
Basically, in the UK, LBS is basically an American school and is the only UK school that ranks really well globally. LSE has a good name in industry but they're very large and not that respected internationally in "academic finance" or accounting, and apparently treat their PhD students quite poorly. LSE, Warwick, Imperial, Cass, Oxford and Cambridge are pretty much what you would treat as the second tier of schools in the UK after LBS with each having some sort of problem: Cambridge's faculty of finance is tiny and very junior but decent, at the other end of the spectrum you have LSE and Cass which are really big but with a lot of mediocre people and bought talent. Oxford had like 3 people go to this year's AFA meeting which was quite impressive for a faculty as small as theirs. For the UK and finance, LBS is the way to go and should that fail, then LSE and Oxford. But there are many many schools that are as good as LSE and Oxford which are not impossible to get into in the US so at that point it becomes a point of how much funding you can get and how well the research interests match yours. For accounting, I have no idea really because it seems like accounting research in Europe and accounting in the US are done completely differently and European researchers are just unable to get good publications into the top US journals but dominate publishing in AOS. I don't know enough to rank the schools but LBS's department of accounting seems fairly good by international standards (faculty seem to publish in the top US journals), even though it's quite small.
This isn't that complicated, though.
Anyhow, OP, I strongly recommend http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-business/ instead of here. Here you just have too few people who know anything about the process and too many people who will answer without knowing anything for this forum to be useful (not referring to anyone on this thread but this whole forum)
PhD in Finance vs. Working (Originally Posted: 10/28/2012)
I'm early into a PhD program in Finance at a 10-20 ranked b-school. I'm not so sure about going the academia route if I do complete my degree, and find myself more excited about building a career as a researcher in the AM industry. Considering the options of (1) finishing the PhD and going into AM as a researcher, or (2) trying to find a buy or sell side research job and quitting the program (I already have a Master's), does anyone out there with experience have any advice or comparisons for these two paths? Is the ceiling higher with the PhD, and is it worth the 5 year investment?
Geez, finance PhD programs are insanely competitive. If you're in a good program, I would stay where you are.
Depending on your location, you should be able to find part-time work/internships/consulting jobs while you are working on your degree. If you come out with strong work experience and a good thesis, just about any buyside firm will at least give you a look.
I assume you have a stipend? Then the only cost is opportunity. In this market, staying in a PhD program isn't a terrible idea. You could always quit if you get an offer from a top fund - but in the meantime, you are building your resume (and hopefully getting work experience).
I do have a stipend, but unfortunately my program won't allow me to take outside work while enrolled in the program. So my options for building work experience are pretty limited.
A phD will definitely get you noticed but if you don't have any relevant experience, summer internship, etc, then you will be just like every other PhD who is having a career crises. The problem with a masters at a non-feeder school is that there are many people with them (MFE, etc.) so your resume won't stand out too much. I would say the ceiling is not higher with a PhD but it will help you get noticed by top shops/AM firms.
If you don't want to do quant/systematic strategies then the value proposition of a PhD diminishes. But again, a PhD will get you noticed in any shop that isn't straight fundamental.
I would think that if you're at a top school then many of your professors consult for the industry. you should ask them about their experience and then also see if they can help you get a summer internship or help them on a project. that should give you a better idea if you think it's worth quitting your program.
Since you're pursuing a PhD in Finance, you're most likely going to be offered positions in quantitative finance research(derivatives pricing). It isn't that bad of a place to be. If you don't want to complete your thesis, then by all means start applying to all the major companies.
You're most likely in a small predicament. I'm guessing you don't know how to program the common languages used like c, c++, java, and python which would rule you out of many quantitative research positions. Given that, you'll be in a more competitive pool competing with students straight out of undergrad for research positions. Since you have a masters, many company HR reps will say you deserve higher pay. But then you've got to think about the department budget and who's running it and what they're willing to sacrifice. In a sense, you run the risk of being overqualified for a research position but under-qualified for another(quant finance research).
With that said, i'd recommend you get through the remainder years and complete your phd.
If you really want to go into industry, 2 years of programming will do you well, C++, Java, and Python at the minimum.
I would have to disagree with one of the above posters. Do not tell your professors that you're planning to go into industry. As you already know, the whole point of a PhD is to prepare you to be an academic researcher. You'll most likely face some opposition when planning your thesis if you tell your professors that your headed to industry.
These are some links which should be of help if you're looking for an industry career post PhD
http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/phd-in-finance-for-private-sector http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/afa-private-sector-aqr-blackrock http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/us-industry-salaries-for-phds/page/1 http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/most-economists-are-losers
http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/accounting-phd-vs-finance-phd
afajof.org/association/jobs.asp
Also, finish the PhD. Somehow. The signal premium is worth it. You could arguably drop out with an MS which was paid for and go to work on the street as a quant, but Dr. ABC > Mr. ABC.
Also the buy side roles which are available to Finance PhDs are VERY different from the roles held by MFEs.
Incremental benefit for doing Phd finance (Originally Posted: 04/13/2013)
Seeing recently stats of leading business school in US and UK (especially), i was amazed to find that msc/ms programs in finance requirements besides funding are less but they create greater monetary value for finance graduate. On other hand, phd guys invest 5 years with no experience/industry links have to end p on almost same salary. Starting salary for MS guy in year 0 ( just after graduation) is suppose 70 K then it would be approx 92 K by end of differential 4 years ( assuming 7 % increment in annual salary) On other hand, how many phd guys cross on such break even of 92 K at start?
I don't think that money is what is driving people to Finance PhDs. At least not as much as MS. But there are probably other things involved as well.
meaning you agree that on monetary ( or more precisely quantitative return on investment) terms, phd is behind.
i actually put these facts to this forum just after seeing very few "quality" Masters level specialized fin. programs in US, on other hand all big universities are investing through doctorate level finance courses in finance industry.
From my understanding most of the PHD students in business schools go there for free. Most of these people want to teach and do research, which is cool. I don't think most of them get a phd for the money, it is more like credential that they need to be able to teach and do research.
PhD finance for a job in market (Originally Posted: 07/17/2015)
Hi there,
I am starting a PhD program in finance this September. My ultimate aim is to be a researcher in the AM industry and maybe in hedge funds. You might think that PhD is a painful and not a certain path to achieve it, but I would also like to keep options open for academia for the future.
My question here would be the areas/topics that industry might find attractive and that I can excel during my PhD. I am interested in topics in asset pricing and behavioral finance, like analysing/creating models to see the difference in prices of financial products in different stages of business cycles, etc. I am not sure whether those are relevant topics for AM and hedge fund analysts?
WRT my background, I do have a BS in Physics and MS in Finance so I feel I have capacities in both quantitative and financial areas. I am quite good in MATLAB, but VBA and C++ or Java seem a-must to be in the market.
Please let me know which topics I need to focus on my PhD study, the ones that significantly help me to land some jobs in relevant areas. Not sure whether it make any sense, but my studies were in Europe and i want to stay in Europe. The school is ranked in the European top 10-20 with a few excellent researchers.
Many thanks
If you're getting a PhD and know matlab I would assume you can pick up vba in a few minutes, it's pretty basic (no pun intended)
Check out quantnet and poets and quants
I don't have any input here other than that I'd be careful about listening to advice from here for something as sensitive as your PHD thesis. I would reach out directly to HF's directly and anyone else you want to work with else well.
Finance PhD's (Originally Posted: 06/28/2007)
What's the typical starting job for fresh Finance PhD's other than academia? Do they tend to go into quant-based funds or something similar or do a lot start out at Associated at BB's?
Also, does it matter which school you get your PhD from? Can a PhD from Tier 2 B-school get a good job or is he/she going to have a hard time?
Why are you asking? These types of questions alone are a pretty good indication that you will never be a Finance PhD.
But to answer your question Finance PhDs have been known to secure jobs as quants and associates at BBs. Like always the better the school...the better your chances of landing these types of jobs.
Personally, I think a PhD in Finance is a complete waste of time unless you had your heart sent on the academic world. If youre brainy enough to get a PhD in finance youre probably brainy enough to get a PhD or at least a Masters in Math/Stats/CompSci/Physics, all of which are probably more marketable in the academic world AND finance.
I concur with Schumacher.
I was talking a bit ago with an MD at a MM I-bank and someone asked him a similar question. He responded with, while anything is possible, attaining a PhD in Finance won't really help your chances to get into Ibanking all that much. He personally felt that people who go this route tend to get too used to the culture and routine that is involved with school, and are better equipped to become a professor than to attempt to enter the business world.
One of the top interest rate quants in the world is a finance PhD.
Math Finance PhD to Wall Street (Originally Posted: 10/17/2015)
Long time reader, first time poster...
I'm currently a student in one of the top math finance programs. Until recently I'd planned on joining a finance department at a business school after completing my PhD. Unfortunately, having taken a number of finance courses not offered by the math department - we offer few topics courses - and I've discovered that most of the finance research is mathematically and/or statistically unsound.* The math finance research while rigorous is utterly useless.** As such, I'm strongly considering a transition back to the private sector.
Prior to joining my PhD, I worked in data analytics consulting for four years. I've generally held sales roles and have been client facing. I'm not your typical PhD: I love client interations, I wasn't a nerd in college or HS though I went to a good university, and I was an athlete throughout college and HS. Ideally, I'd like a role that facilitates a lot of social interaction and that's close to the money. Seeing the jobs most of our people get, and yes it's mainly quant jobs in banks or hedge funds , I've acquired the impression that those two things don't characterize their everyday tasks. Should I complete my PhD? Is there a role for a PhD that doesn't make you a trader's bitch or turn you into some sort of quasi-academic troll at Two Sigma?
I'm interested in why you think quants are quasi-academic trolls?
I've heard a lot of quants say that having a postgraduate math degree for quant roles is completely unnecessary/overkill, since the math you learn as an undergraduate math major is sufficient. It's more a function of marketability, or advertising on behalf of the firms who hire these math PhDs.
Also, your comments on mathematical-finance research seems reasonable given many of the opinions of renown quants. Apparently, a lot of the research has just become completely useless and unsound - essentially mental masturbation.
Keep in mind, quants at places like AQR/Two Sigma do more than just research - they also develop and execute actual investment strategies.
The issue is that your background already puts you into the 'quantitative roles bucket'. It may be difficult to convince people in roles with more client-interaction that they should hire you. Trading, risk and investment management roles are what's open to you right now. Of these, investment management would probably offer the most client-interactions.
Investment management at a BB like Goldman Sachs Asset Management, as opposed to a quant fund, may offer a bit more of what you're looking for. I have seen some quants (with/without PhDs) in asset management roles at BB banks. I also hear that Asset Management has quite a bit of client interaction, although others are better qualified to advise you on this.
If you want to get out of quant roles completely, then you're going to have more trouble. This is made significantly worse by the fact that you're a Math PhD, rather than straight out of undergrad. It makes you an 'experienced' hire and I'm not sure how well a Math PhD would be able to recruit for an IB analyst role, ect.
LTCM
Delete
Careers options for PhD in Finance (Other than academia) (Originally Posted: 11/14/2015)
Hi guys.
I am a first year PhD Finance student at a school which has very a solid reputation in overall but not the top in finance. As a PhD student, my priority is on getting an academic position, but I am also interested in career options in the industry.
Are there substantial number of people getting into IBD or Sales & Trading with a finance phd degree? I am also considering to quant or strats positions, but computational language is not something that I am familiar with.
I know that investment banks prefer fresh college graduates or MBA students over PhD candidates for their front office tasks other than quant, but I also heard that some trading desks dealing with more complicated products such as structure rates or exotics willingly hire PhD guys. Is that true?
If my research is on corporate finance, more specifically capital structure of firms, would it boost my employability for IBD?
In terms of locational preference, I would not mind to work in any of major financial centers around world. (NY, London or HK) So, if you have any knowledge on those places, please give me some insight.
Quant Hedge Funds. Although it totally depends on the penchant of your PHD program. Quantitative Researchers are research (new models) and programming focused.
IBD I would say a no. You're likely too old and a bit too quantitatively orientated for the role which is as much soft skills as hard science. I would imagine you may have an easier time on the S&T side with a quant desk but I would think you'd likely need to develop some coding skills which frankly shouldn't be that hard to pick up.
Thanks, guys. So you guys suggest that only 'quant' related positions would be available for me? And for the programming language, I am currently using matlab and R for my coursework and research. Would it be sufficent?
Matlab and R are perfect. In trading, you want a language you can crunch data / backtest strategies with (R / Python) as well as one that has solid execution when you go live (Matlab / Python / C++). Look into statistical arbitrage / pairs trading, you should pick this up no problem w/ your background. Download a few data sets online, run some simple analysis to start, and you can formulate a strategy to start paper trading on your own. From there you can join prop desks, HFT, structuring etc.
If algorithmic trading doesn't interest you and you don't want to go the pure academic route another way in is through a multilateral organization as an economist. After a few years those positions can set you up well to jump to a bank or hedge fund where you can make some serious coin.
I like the idea about economics. There is a third option other than industry and academia... Government!
Federal Reserve has nice paychecks and exit opps... They cap out around 200 k though if I remember right.
And PLEASE... If you want to go to industry do NOT do research on corporate finance. I would use the opportunity to find an arbitrage or something other statistically significant relationship which produces consistent alpha.
econ/finance phd (Originally Posted: 04/08/2007)
if you are currently in a econ or finance phd program what exit opportunities are there on wall street
FI and Equity Quant Reserch/Deriv Pricing groups, banks like Lehman and CS have a PhD day/presentation some time in fall, where they tell about PhD opportunities. make sure you school work is quant/econometrics related. Are you Stern fin or econ ?
just looking @ my options
You can become a professor.
Finance Phd (Originally Posted: 10/23/2011)
I am doing Phd in finance, passed the first two levels of CFA exams. I have been told that my background fits for buy side firms, especially HFs. My uni is not an ivy league school though. What do you think is the best way for me to contact HFs?
As my uni is not an ivy league school, they are not coming to my uni and it is hard for me to find something through the alumni.
Thanks in advance.
Cold call/cold email tons of firms. Use Linkedin to connect with people at HFs you would be interested in working for. I'd imagine it wouldn't be hard to get responses since you're doing a PhD.
What topics are you studying in finance.. I'm just being nosy as I didn't know they offered such a Ph.d
My thesis in on market microstructure of derivatives market. I also work on asset pricing.
Let's say I am graduating in summer, when do you think I should start sending e-mails?
3 years ago.
Agreed. Start emailing and calling ASAP. Attend as many networking events as possible. Tap into the alumni networks of both your PhD school and BA/BS school, as well as any possible masters you may have done.
New here & im a PHD Finance hunter (Originally Posted: 04/11/2014)
Trying to get ideas about PHD finanace proposal.
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Not sure if trolling, but if you're seriously looking for someone else to come up with your Phd topic, you probably should not be pursuing a Phd in the first place.
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You should probably be talking with your advisor.
This cant be serious :)
finance phd (Originally Posted: 10/01/2011)
I will graduate this summer and I am taking CFA level 3 exam this June.I am good at econometrics, R and Matlab. My uni is not an ivy league school, but has a good reputation.
Sell side quants told me that my profile suits better for buy side jobs. I am wondering which buy side firms hire finance phds. Thanks in advance.
Take a look around the Hedge Fund forum. This site has alot of great resources. Here's some for you:
WSO hedge fund career guide
Phd in Finance profile eval (Originally Posted: 09/27/2014)
Hi Gurus out there.
I am interested in applying to Finance Phd program.
I would like gurus here to provide me some insights/ideas on my chances getting into these programs listed below:
Uni. of Michigan, UCLA, Duke, USC, Cornell, Boston College, University of Florida, Rutgers.
To provide info on my background/stats:
UGPA: 3.45 & GPGA: 3.5. Studied EE during undergrad and Comp. Engr as major and econ as minor studies during grad school w/ full fellowship & stipend.
GRE V 156 GRE Q 170 AWA 4... I know i bombed my verbal :(
1.5 yrs of research experience & winning IEEE research fellowship/scholarship for my research.
2 yrs of working @ High tech firm (think apple or google) by the time i enroll to phd program..
I am particularly worried about my gpa since it is not 3.8 or 3.9 as advertised on many phd program website...
Do you gurus think if I have a reasonable chance to get into one of the programs I listed above? And is there any particular area I should improve or work on, say GRE verbal for example?
Any advice or comment will be appreciated :)
Just to add another piece of info...
i received my BSE & MSE from top 5 engineering program.....
Your background certainly isn't bad. I have done some reading in finance PhD programs and I think you have a lot of points in your favor. I think it is likely that you will be able to get in somewhere, however there are a few things to keep I mind from what I've read:
The Math. Have you taken Real Analysis in undergrad? Finance and Econ PhDs are pretty brutal math-wise and knowing the EE students I know, it is very possible to come out of an engineering program without a strong enough math background for a Finance/Econ PhD.
You alluded to this in your post but finance PhD programs are extremely competitive. Even for someone like you it will be tough to get in to a top program.
Research fellowship is a big point in your favor, leverage that in your application.
Great thanks for your comment. First of all, here is a list of math courses I took: Cal I, II, III, IV, Linear Algebra, statistics, Regression/forecasting, Probabilistic method in engineering which covers some Real Analysis, and many other engineering courses requiring intro knowledge level of Real analysis. But I have not taken a course called Real Analysis. And I am aware of the competitiveness of the Finance PHD program :(
What do you think of my lowish gpa and verbal score? Any reg flag or yellow card?
Finance PhD (Originally Posted: 08/11/2011)
Most recent post on this seems to be in 2007.
To put it simply, I did my undergrad in Finance, have an MBA, and am taking CFA Level III next June. Working in ER currently.
Really considering going and doing my doctorate. Love the researching professor lifestyle and autonomy. Anyone done this? Advice going forward? (Starting next fall)
That actually sound pretty cool...
I'm actually interested in pursuing this path as well
Professor Jarrow at Cornell was a math major and a MBA from Tuck. He got his PhD at MIT in 3 years after that. Look up HJM model.
To the OP, what specific field within finance are you interested in?
I dropped out of an Econ PhD, so if anyone is considering this path and wants to ask me any questions, feel free to PM me.
The life of an academic is, to misquote Thomas Hobbes, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish" and shit.
You have much less autonomy you think you do; you're obliged to churn out a constant streams of papers that will (most likely) be read by almost nobody; and, you have to be prepared to relocate to the middle-of-nowhere's-ville to take a job teaching undergrads. To make things worse, the actual process of researching can be incredibly lonely too.
Not for me. And I strongly considered it.
Specific field of interest would be more on the corporate side of things -- M&A, spin-offs, restructurings, etc.
Thanks for the input, all. Definitely is a major decision with ramifications, but there's a major part of me that believes I will regret it if I don't do it.
Also, I think that a major catalyst for my thought process here is that I don't really see myself living tick-by-tick to the stock market, or being so focused on a given industry that I can tell you the exact inventory level for a company 3 quarters ago. Don't get me wrong, I love my job right now -- and I think that analysts who are so in tune with an industry are really good, and it's amazing to see that level of knowledge about companies.
I feel like the things that I like about doing ER I can do for my own portfolio on a go-forward basis. And I also want to make sure that I can have solid balance in my life -- be a husband, be a good dad. Not that it can't be done in ER, but the balance challenge is significantly more difficult.
I'm aware that academia is no bed of roses and that there's no "free lunch", but I feel like, for me, the benefits outweigh the costs.
Fair enough.
Do a Masters and re-assess. I was dead set on avoiding the City and "corporate" economics when I finished my undergrad. Two years later I u-turned.
So long as you apply yourself with gusto- and don't look back- you can't really go wrong, as with most things in life. Until your set off in the direction, keep your options open and don't burn any bridges.
PhD Finance for I-Banks !? (Originally Posted: 11/10/2007)
Hi,
i'm currently studying economics and am considering a phd in finance, I'm still having about 2years ahead until graduation though.
Why I would like yet to get a clear opinion whether or not to pursue a PhD afterwards is, since if I wanted to do one (in a really good school) I would need to concentrate more (maybe entirely) on my studies now in order to get a sufficient good degree, in contrast to doing as many as possible relevant internships in order to get a good job directly after graduation. Aside from that I would need to apply already in about a year I guess.
I read already some related threads about the topic, many advice "do it if you really are interested in the subject" which makes definitely sense and of course I am interested! but if i knew already which job i would like to go for for sure and also knew that the phd wouldnt be usefull for that particular job, i wouldn't do one I think. But since I don't really know yet, what kind of job to aim for (and general whether industry or maybe academia) it also would help me to keep all my options open.
I read many times that in many areas of i-banks a phd absolutely wouldn't be neccessary, though i read as well since financial instruments are getting more and more complex a phd could be beneficial.
So my main question is in which areas of i-banks (i.e. sales, trading, risk management, NOT structuring since that's obvious) is a finance phd (with what specialisation?) beneficial or even neccessary?
I'd really appreciate your input! Thanks a lot in advance!
I don't know much about other areas, but for corporate finance, a PhD is definitely not required, nor is it beneficial.
Ibanks generally have economists and market strategists (not sure who gets these jobs and how) that generally most of these people carry PhDs.
The trend at most quant trading desks seems to leaning more towards the physics, mathematics, statistics PhDs.
If you have a good math background you can check out the MFE programs both in the U.S. and U.K. Its a great degree to have if you want to break into trading
To be honest, a Finance PhD is basically only beneficial to people who want to become college professors, which has its perks (ridiculously short hours, low stress environment, and great pay assuming you can get a job at a half-decent college). If I-banking is what you're after though, dont waste 8-12 years of your life pursuing a PhD when you could be gaining some valuable work exp.
A PhD would be relevant on certain trading desks, research, probably risk management, and I can't really speak to other areas . If you have a finance PhD you will not have a problem getting a job at a bank - they are in very high demand. Having said that, don't get a PhD as a means to get into banking unless you are really, really, interested in the topic you're working on. Something like 50% of PhD finance candidates burn out, and that's coming from an already very select crowd - I've heard admissions stats are somewhere around 10-20%. It's not an easy road.
career advice for PhD student (Originally Posted: 01/18/2013)
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I wouldn't recommend to do that online MBA. To me that's kinda ridiculous. There are all kinds of majors in IBD, so don't worry about that. Maybe the CFA Level I can show your general interest in finance, but there are very variable notions on this strategy here on WSO
You're Ivy, so that's a very big plus. I would concentrate on getting my story right: " Why do you wanna do finance?" Why now? What can you bring to the table? I also would try to dwell on your quant skills, if there are any.
Your age is a big problem, so be prepared.
Good luck!
restructury, thanks for your comment.
Do I have a realistic shot at an associate position with a MBA? Should I do the UCLA certificate program in investment management and analysis? Is taking CFA 1 is the best course of action if I have some time to spare on preparation for IB job (beside networking)?
Due to my experience you would only have a shot for an assoiciate positions with a prestigious MBA, not at all with an online MBA.
The UCLA program or CFA Level I program is a very good add on in my opinion.
But I think you have to focus on getting a job (networking) more than to add another qualification.
So let me ask you: Why do you wan't to get into finance?
Have you ever thought about consulting? (Your CV and Ph.D. may have mor advantages here) I'm just asking because I do have a couple of friends who want(ed) to get out of their traditional field (engineering, chemistry;..) just to do something more business related without any clear focus.
you're an ivey so....NETWORK, NETWORK and NETWORK!
I am leaning towards a MBA which could open more doors compared to specific training/knowledge I could get from CFA. Even though its online, its the same degree given to other students in the full-time program (the interviewers won't know unless he/she asks me explicitly about the nature of the program) Since I already have access to alumni network and career services at my ivy league schools, I don't care much about the networking opportunity within my MBA cohort. My plan is not get another brand name on my resume - but to retool my management skills and sharpen my business acumen, which I think can be done through an online program.
I am also planning to give a shot at consulting too. BUT English is my second language, and my presentation skills might not be as smooth as those of native speakers. And consulting involves a lot more interactions with clients, social skills play a bigger role to success in consulting than in IB. So I guess I might have better chances of having a career in IB.
I don't want to go into academia. My goal had been to join the private sector since I started my PhD program. Finance fascinates me for several reasons (including great pay). Particularly, I am pretty good with analytical skills and want to help companies search out ways to become more financially independent. Another reason is that my home country does not have an established financial market (no credit bureau, no mortgage loan, no stock exchange). With international experiences and top-notch training i could get here in the US, my dream is to return home one day and help develop the financial sector back in my country.
Any more suggestions? Thank you!
You can make it into banking- but generally speaking the work is pretty mind numbing and might feel below your intellectual abilities / curiosity, given that you have gone through the trouble of getting an advanced degree. Realistically, your best shot is to network your way in. Success depends on how good you are at networking, MBAs, CFAs, all that stuff is a waste of time.
What are my odds going from PhD into these business schools? (Originally Posted: 05/02/2014)
I am looking to apply to a MBA program this coming fall and switching away from R&D into management and consulting roles within the life science and biotech industry. I will be 28 when I enroll, this is a little on the older side I believe. Anyways, I would appreciate you guys' opinions on my chances.
Undergrad (top 2 Canada): Economics (3.4/4.0) Graduate (semi-target U.S) : Biochemistry PhD
GMAT: 730
Work experience: Boutique consulting (co-op, life science biotech industry): 7 months IT consulting and implementation (current, healthcare and life science industry) : 6 months Software Start up (current, health care and life science industry): COO, 8 months.
I am interested in the following schools and programs:
Cornell (Johnson): 1 year MBA program for scientists Fuqua (healthcare management program) Haas UCLA USC Marshall (I am not sure how Marshall is doing, from the latest statistics it would seem that 25% of graduates are without job placement; I would like some thoughts on this as well)
Thanks again.
28 is the average age, so you're definitely not on the old side. Your work experience is a bit on the light side, and it's going to be a red flag that you were at two firms for less than a year unless you explain it well. That said, a dual Biochem Ph.D and MBA will make you highly employable, so I think you can certainly get into the schools you are aiming for (although, you might come off as unfocused since your career isnt based on your Ph.D...make sure you can build a coherent story). You MIGHT have to re-apply once before you get in, to show more experience, but you'll definitely get in eventually. You might have more trouble in the Top 10/MBA business schools ">M7 schools though if you decide to reach, but your target schools are fine (Haas will be a reach though).
Your work experience is a HUGE red flag. Three jobs under a year each?! Most people hold on to a position for at least 2 years. Maybe you should look into patent law. There are alot of top firms that will pay you to goto law school and give you a six figure paycheck.
Thank you for the input guys. I realize that my work experience will be a glaring weakness on my application that I would need to address in some capacity. To qualify, I was not laid off, nor was I job hopping. My 7 months work experience at the boutique consulting firm was a work study (co-op) program. The work focused on management consulting for the life science and biotech industry. I am still currently employed at the start-up and the IT consulting firm. Both firms are involved in software development for the healthcare and life science sector. By the time I matriculate into any MBA program I would have been at these two companies for 2 years.
I am also not sure how MBA programs take into consideration the PhD experience. As part of the PhD program, I essentially served as a research assistant for 4 years. Since I am legally a paid employee of the University, should this not count as work experience in some capacity?
Thanks again.
Yes, your work experience as a research assistant in the university does count. Your combination on-going experiences look consistent with what I have seen in other students who are applying from an academic setting. I don't see any red flags. But like any other candidate, you want to present your purpose as having something bigger than simply wanting to switch functions. Get your story clear, I mean really clear, and of course, figure out ways that your experiences will add to a class.
Tell us more about this Cornell program for scientists (!) I thought it was just a tech program in NY. -- sorry to be ignorant, especially in public. I will be visiting the Cornell Tech Center in NY in a few weeks, so give me good questions to ask.
I do know of a number of PhDs that have gone to MBA business schools ">M7 schools more or less straight out of grad school. Doable, but not that common. If you can justify an MBA (having a good story) and also have demonstrated excellence out of academics (ECs, leadership roles, etc...), I believe you would be competitive at your schools of interest.
PhD looking for job at BB bank (Originally Posted: 09/20/2012)
i'm looking for a job at a BB. i'm generally clueless about finance but i am pretty sure i will like it if i get into it. i'm doing a phd in engineering from a good school and i expect to graduate in may or august next year.
few questions...
do Citi, jp, GS, etc have specific programs to hire people with my background? would my background (PhD plus a couple internships) be sufficient to pass a resume screen?
given that i want to graduate next summer, when should i look to apply? is it rolling? is there a deadline for phds?
are phds hired differently from ba's? would i be interviewing for an associate role as opposed to analyst?
what divisions are there, and how is the prestige associated with each of them?
how do i best prepare for interviews?
thanks.
any languages?
There's literally book guides printed out to answer those general questions. Search the forum or read them. also go to the wilmott forum instead. More PhDs there and they would be more knowledgeable of the opportunities. This forum is mostly populated with Investment Bankind Division aspirants. You'd be in Sales and Trading.
The most important and first filter for you is going to be- how good is your C++?
And yes, you'd be an associate. And full-time recruiting is going on right now. But for the jobs where they specifically look for quant PhDs- that recruiting isn't as structured. (of course some PhDs go into non-PhD required/recommended jobs too). For the quant PhD jobs you're looking at 3 main things:
thanks a lot.
i know a bit of C and am gonna work on developing that. i think i will be fine after studying it for a month...
is there any other skill theyre gonna look for? for instance, say my phd is in engineering. are they gonna ask me technical questions related to my prior cousework? or is it just going to be basic probability questions and brainteasers that i've seen on the internet?
finally, assuming im an industrial engineering phd from columbia, have working C skills, and can talk about my research, what's the chance i can get hired as a phd, in any div at GS?
GS is the first company that always comes to mind because they reached out to me. i'll consider any bb firm though. i was just picking out one as an example.
An interview is not going to be advanced technical stuff. But in the past it was common to have some people take a test and decide interviews based on that. That's another reason you'd want to apply sooner or later. Credit Suisse used to have a in-house test for applicants to their "quantitative associate" program- which basically encompassed 99% of the jobs a PhD would go into. Several times a year they'd have a 100+ people come in and take a test- mostly higher-level undergrad level questions in math areas useful for finance. And another common thing is an online test that supposedly measures your programming ability through multiple choice questions. There's a company that does it that several banks use- can't remember the name now.
But how they interview PhDs can change over the years depending on the bank, the department and sometimes even whoever is currently in charge in that area. Don't know how GS does it. As for your chances of getting into ANY division at GS? That's not an illuminating question. And in fact depends more on their current staffing needs in particular areas than it does on you (unless you're an expert in some in vogue area like signal processing?). But assuming you work at it- e.g. contacting HR and headhunters- I'd say pretty good.
GS is actually the largest employer of PhD's after I believe the federal government. BB love PhDs and they are much harder to fire too, due to their expertise.
Consider finding a recruiting firm.
You will most likely find a position as a quant or as GS likes to call them, strategists. Put simply, you will a traders bitch.
I don't think that's true. At the end of the day its a bank not a technology/science company. And quantitative finance is just a subset of a broader industry. Besides Google is almost 2x as big. IBM is 10x as big (in employees).
I'm sure they have a higher attrition rate though- just because there's a higher learning curve in their job.
thanks so much for the insights, everyone. very helpful.
so all in all, you'd say that there is a good chance that I can land a job at a BB, provided I prepare. that's pretty much what I wanted to gauge.
given that, what would you say is the best way I should approach preparing for interviews? is the interview process as cutthroat as it is for undergrads? is there a book or a program i can subscribe to that will prepare me for interviews? i'm just reading wilmott's FAQs in quantitative finance as of now.
Heard on the Street....but its kinda old now. But everyone uses this. And they expect almost everyone to have seen it. Review your probability, calculus, ode/pde. Prepare for C++ brainteasers. The interview process is a lot more variable then undergrad. It's not nearly as structured. Typically not as many stages.
They'll look at your CV and ask you questions from it. So be prepared for that obviously. If you display some quant finance knowledge they might ask you further questions. Otherwise just read Hull. If you have time- then go into more finance reading like Shreve- but better to be strong on the basics than weak and broad. The finance questions will be secondary. If you fuck up the prob/calc/ode question- then that's instant death.
Next, a lot of PhD hires are interviewed specifically by a certain desk/group for a specific position. So once you hear about the interview- you're going to want to learn more about their work, the financial instrument, etc. And pay extra attention on that group's most relevant quant skill. e.g. for an interview with market risk you might want to add stats/econometrics to your reviewing. for model validation pde's. for quant developer- c++ brainteasers.
doing phd while networking into ib (Originally Posted: 02/07/2013)
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With a PHD you'd be overqualified
Your communication skills will be a huge roadblock, regardless of what you decide to do.
'I am an international student who is about to graduate this semester from a non-target school in US, have not yet networked enough and secured a job in IB due to time manners. I am thinking of pursuing a PHD degree here in US after my undergraduate probably at schools around New York area so that it would be easy for me to travel there and make connections. If success in securing a job, then I would leave the PHD program. I dont want to pursue a MSF or a MFE due to budgetary issue. Do you think it is feasible? Will I have a shot in getting into BBs? By the way I am majoring in economics, had an internship with a boutique in the M&A advisory, but currently only targeting the BBs'
'have not yet networked enough' 'due to time manners.' 'if success in securing a job' 'due to budgetary issue,' etc.
Iunno. your point gets across, but it's not 'good' english persay.
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