After one year the options will be fairly limited. Think entry into a junior role within a Corp Dev group. Unlikely any PE exits without prior experience.

After two years, your corp dev options may be a little better and potentially some smaller PE shops.

Realistically, post-MBA IBD associate is not a great choice if you are looking to leave within 1-2 years. At the VP-level options are better, but that is 3+ years.

 

People on WSO are way too rigid when they look at careers, especially when looking at experiened roles.

No, there is no period after a year of being an associate where dozens of headhunters contact you about buy-side openings. But there are constantly new jobs opening up whether it's corporate development, PE, Asset Management, or anything really. Good associates can get interviews for any of them.

Life is about who you know. Andrew Friedman (President of baseball operations for the Dodgers) jumped from PE to MLB FO because he happened to meet the guy who was about to purchase the team. It's ridiculous when people say you can't go to PE from upper level banking, because it happens plenty to people who are in the right place at the right time. I speak with Corporate Devleopment people all the time at major corporations and there are plenty of former bankers, but also lots of company engineers and even accountants. Yet people on this site say the latter of those two jobs have zero exit opportunities either.

 
Quaneaser:

People on WSO are way too rigid when they look at careers, especially when looking at experiened roles.

No, there is no period after a year of being an associate where dozens of headhunters contact you about buy-side openings. But there are constantly new jobs opening up whether it's corporate development, PE, Asset Management, or anything really. Good associates can get interviews for any of them.

Life is about who you know. Andrew Friedman (President of baseball operations for the Dodgers) jumped from PE to MLB FO because he happened to meet the guy who was about to purchase the team. It's ridiculous when people say you can't go to PE from upper level banking, because it happens plenty to people who are in the right place at the right time. I speak with Corporate Devleopment people all the time at major corporations and there are plenty of former bankers, but also lots of company engineers and even accountants. Yet people on this site say the latter of those two jobs have zero exit opportunities either.

This (points above). Emphasis on "who you know"

I used to do Asia-Pacific PE (kind of like FoF). Now I do something else but happy to try and answer questions on that stuff.
 

@"thecm" Yes, these are people that entered IB post-MBA. I do know a few consultants at MBB and industry specific firms but none has left their firm so I can't speak to their potential exit opps. I imagine turnover is higher and with more frequency at IB compared to Consulting firms. The people I know are only a few years out of school so the consultants haven't run their course at their firms yet.

 
Funniest

Bro if you do investment banking after attending a top15 MBA program you're basically screwed. Your only choice is to do investment banking the rest of your life because there are zero transferrable skills. Its a black hole. If I was a PE guy or a CFO, I wouldn't even consider hiring a well respected banker. Literally makes no sense and I see no value add for my organization.

You should definitely go work at a F500 management program where you won't be pigeonholed.

 

I'm not sure if you were attempting to be funny or are just a douchebag, but this is entirely incorrect. He can move to a corporate finance role any day, any time. I have F500 recruiters contacting me frequently, including one of the corporations I turned down an FMP role to go into IB.

The PE route is much more difficult, until you are an experienced VP. There are a few exceptions and the best chance tends to be moving to a lower MM fund.

 
CorpFinanceGuy:

Bro if you do investment banking after attending a top15 MBA program you're basically screwed. Your only choice is to do investment banking the rest of your life because there are zero transferrable skills. Its a black hole. If I was a PE guy or a CFO, I wouldn't even consider hiring a well respected banker. Literally makes no sense and I see no value add for my organization.

You should definitely go work at a F500 management program where you won't be pigeonholed.

Seriously???

 

The most common exit opp of post-MBA IBD is drum roll MORE BANKING! That's right bros. Post-MBA IBD is NOT post-college IBD, which opens a ridiculous number of doors. If you do banking after b-school you have to be ready to be a lifelong banker, hope to make enough cash without killing yourself and then retire reasonably early. The only other viable exit opp is something like biz development or corporate finance at a F500.

 
Best Response

@"mbavsmfin", yet again, you are commenting on something you have no clue about.

I tend to agree that MBAs should look at banking as a career choice, but the reality is that only 50% of the associates we hire make VP and only 10% will make MD (at any bank). They need to exit somewhere.

Thinking about exit options 1-2 years is a bit silly. An MBA without banking experience is useless 1-2 years in the job, and will get no credit for that time in banking.

That said, I did think about the associates who I have hired in the past five years, and this is what happened. About half got promoted and are still in banking. Everyone that stayed in banking was an analyst promote. None of the MBAs stuck around.

  1. Highly regarded, top ranked AS3 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Great guy but too early to gauge success in the new role.

  2. Highly regarded, second bucket VP1 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three and a half years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Was a talented banker but was struggling a bit with his personal life and wanted some more time off. Has done very well in his new job.

  3. Very smart, but did not really work out in banking AS2 - Got a job at a top tier very large credit HF after two years in banking. Has been very successful there. Did not have the social skills to be effective in banking, but was quantitatively very adept. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

  4. Mid ranked AS3 - Got a job in strategy at a Fortune 10 firm after three years in banking. Wasn't really suited for the pace of banking. Seems to enjoy the bureaucracy of a large corporate. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA

  5. Bottom ranked AS3 - Would have been fired. Moved on to an M&A role in an acquisitive but not large cap ($5bn market cap) corporate. Generally incompetent. Top 10 MBA.

  6. Bottom ranked AS2 - Would have been fired. Moved on to PWM at one of the top firms for this. Probably well suited for their personality. Slick but couldn't do math. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

Hope this give you some flavor of the opportunities post MBA.

 
mergersandacquisitions78:

@mbavsmfin, yet again, you are commenting on something you have no clue about.

I tend to agree that MBAs should look at banking as a career choice, but the reality is that only 50% of the associates we hire make VP and only 10% will make MD (at any bank). They need to exit somewhere.

Thinking about exit options 1-2 years is a bit silly. An MBA without banking experience is useless 1-2 years in the job, and will get no credit for that time in banking.

That said, I did think about the associates who I have hired in the past five years, and this is what happened. About half got promoted and are still in banking. Everyone that stayed in banking was an analyst promote. None of the MBAs stuck around.

1. Highly regarded, top ranked AS3 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Great guy but too early to gauge success in the new role.

2. Highly regarded, second bucket VP1 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three and a half years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Was a talented banker but was struggling a bit with his personal life and wanted some more time off. Has done very well in his new job.

3. Very smart, but did not really work out in banking AS2 - Got a job at a top tier very large credit HF after two years in banking. Has been very successful there. Did not have the social skills to be effective in banking, but was quantitatively very adept. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

4. Mid ranked AS3 - Got a job in strategy at a Fortune 10 firm after three years in banking. Wasn't really suited for the pace of banking. Seems to enjoy the bureaucracy of a large corporate. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA

5. Bottom ranked AS3 - Would have been fired. Moved on to an M&A role in an acquisitive but not large cap ($5bn market cap) corporate. Generally incompetent. Top 10 MBA.

6. Bottom ranked AS2 - Would have been fired. Moved on to PWM at one of the top firms for this. Probably well suited for their personality. Slick but couldn't do math. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

Hope this give you some flavor of the opportunities post MBA.

Thanks for the great post. We should have more people like you here.

When you mention that 50% of the associates make VP, do you mean 50% of the associates who stick around in banking and actually want to make VP, make VP, or does this number include associates who wanted to leave? To put it a bit more clearly: what percentage of associates who want to move up the ranks (VP; SVP; MD) actually make it?

 

This is not a scientific number, but its something we broadly work with in our bank.

About half the associates we hire don't make VP. This includes associates who left out of their own volition, and associates who don't cut it.

Out of the 50% who make VP, only 20% of those make MD in our assessment. Out of the remainder who leave, most leave involuntarily because they are pushed out or because they don't see the possibility to make MD.

LiamNeeson:
mergersandacquisitions78:

@mbavsmfin, yet again, you are commenting on something you have no clue about.

I tend to agree that MBAs should look at banking as a career choice, but the reality is that only 50% of the associates we hire make VP and only 10% will make MD (at any bank). They need to exit somewhere.

Thinking about exit options 1-2 years is a bit silly. An MBA without banking experience is useless 1-2 years in the job, and will get no credit for that time in banking.

That said, I did think about the associates who I have hired in the past five years, and this is what happened. About half got promoted and are still in banking. Everyone that stayed in banking was an analyst promote. None of the MBAs stuck around.

1. Highly regarded, top ranked AS3 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Great guy but too early to gauge success in the new role.

2. Highly regarded, second bucket VP1 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three and a half years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Was a talented banker but was struggling a bit with his personal life and wanted some more time off. Has done very well in his new job.

3. Very smart, but did not really work out in banking AS2 - Got a job at a top tier very large credit HF after two years in banking. Has been very successful there. Did not have the social skills to be effective in banking, but was quantitatively very adept. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

4. Mid ranked AS3 - Got a job in strategy at a Fortune 10 firm after three years in banking. Wasn't really suited for the pace of banking. Seems to enjoy the bureaucracy of a large corporate. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA

5. Bottom ranked AS3 - Would have been fired. Moved on to an M&A role in an acquisitive but not large cap ($5bn market cap) corporate. Generally incompetent. Top 10 MBA.

6. Bottom ranked AS2 - Would have been fired. Moved on to PWM at one of the top firms for this. Probably well suited for their personality. Slick but couldn't do math. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

Hope this give you some flavor of the opportunities post MBA.

Thanks for the great post. We should have more people like you here.

When you mention that 50% of the associates make VP, do you mean 50% of the associates who stick around in banking and actually want to make VP, make VP, or does this number include associates who wanted to leave? To put it a bit more clearly: what percentage of associates who want to move up the ranks (VP; SVP; MD) actually make it?

 

I wish you the best of luck. Thank you for your service, and as I'm sure you know, we really appreciate military alumni in banking.

CantSlowDown:

Thanks for the post, if I had a naner I would throw it your way. I start my MBA business schools ">M7 MBA this fall, and am currently seriously considering investment banking.

Thanks again, posts like this are why WSO has been invaluable in my transition from military service to b-school.

 

Would you say there is some significant difference between your A2A promotes and Post MBA Associates that has caused all the Post MBA's to leave banking? Have the prior analysts just appeared to be more adept to the long grind than the MBA's? Has this just been the way it has worked out in your group and is not necessarily representative of this transition for most associates at your bank?

Obviously most of these guys have left to great opportunities, but showing that all the MBAs left somewhat gives the impression that they couldn't necessarily make it in banking despite their high performance. I assume I am interpreting it wrong, I just want to find out where I am going off track.

 

Don't read too much into this. Its a very small sample size, but only to make the point that most people who start out as banking associates will not stick around to make MD, and those who do have great opportunities, even the weakest swimmers.

The A2As were on average better performers as associates, and that definitely helped retention. But my view is that by the time VP rolls around, there is no statistical difference between A2As and MBA hires. I'd say 50% of the VPs are truly qualified for the job, and that is evenly distrivuted.

That's why I was particularly disappointed when the two top people noted above left. The first one just was working for the wrong MDs who weren't generating enough business. The second one was great, but wanted some changes to his personal life that I respect. The rest weren't missed.

cayo275:

Would you say there is some significant difference between your A2A promotes and Post MBA Associates that has caused all the Post MBA's to leave banking? Have the prior analysts just appeared to be more adept to the long grind than the MBA's? Has this just been the way it has worked out in your group and is not necessarily representative of this transition for most associates at your bank?

Obviously most of these guys have left to great opportunities, but showing that all the MBAs left somewhat gives the impression that they couldn't necessarily make it in banking despite their high performance. I assume I am interpreting it wrong, I just want to find out where I am going off track.

 
mergersandacquisitions78:

@mbavsmfin, yet again, you are commenting on something you have no clue about.

I tend to agree that MBAs should look at banking as a career choice, but the reality is that only 50% of the associates we hire make VP and only 10% will make MD (at any bank). They need to exit somewhere.

Thinking about exit options 1-2 years is a bit silly. An MBA without banking experience is useless 1-2 years in the job, and will get no credit for that time in banking.

That said, I did think about the associates who I have hired in the past five years, and this is what happened. About half got promoted and are still in banking. Everyone that stayed in banking was an analyst promote. None of the MBAs stuck around.

1. Highly regarded, top ranked AS3 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Great guy but too early to gauge success in the new role.

2. Highly regarded, second bucket VP1 - Took a post MBA job at a very well known upper mid-market PE fund after three and a half years in banking. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA. Was a talented banker but was struggling a bit with his personal life and wanted some more time off. Has done very well in his new job.

3. Very smart, but did not really work out in banking AS2 - Got a job at a top tier very large credit HF after two years in banking. Has been very successful there. Did not have the social skills to be effective in banking, but was quantitatively very adept. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

4. Mid ranked AS3 - Got a job in strategy at a Fortune 10 firm after three years in banking. Wasn't really suited for the pace of banking. Seems to enjoy the bureaucracy of a large corporate. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA

5. Bottom ranked AS3 - Would have been fired. Moved on to an M&A role in an acquisitive but not large cap ($5bn market cap) corporate. Generally incompetent. Top 10 MBA.

6. Bottom ranked AS2 - Would have been fired. Moved on to PWM at one of the top firms for this. Probably well suited for their personality. Slick but couldn't do math. MBA business schools ">M7 MBA.

Hope this give you some flavor of the opportunities post MBA.

The big takeaway here is that Top 10 MBAs are incompetent and only MBA business schools ">M7 MBA have any talent.

 

Hi M&A78, 

Thank you for taking out the time to write this reply. I will join an M7(non HSW) with no pre-mba banking experience.  How does not having any pre-MBA banking experience effect your exit options 3+ years into banking. The individuals in the cases that you mentioned, would they end up differently if they were or werent analysts pre-mba. Thank you!

 

Great reply by @"mergersandacquisitions78". Keep it coming. Would love to hear about Hedge fund options post IBD. Is it true that most hedge fund exit options are the Credit funds and not the typical long-short funds? Thanks.

 

@"youayou" - the correct answer is all of the above. A good associate is the quarterback of the transaction process.

You are expected to ensure the modeling / analytics is thoughtful and flawless.

You are expected to create high quality presentation work that addresses the specifics of the transaction or highly insightful strategic analysis, as the case may be.

You are expected to coordinate all elements of deals to ensure that deadlines are met.

You are expected to liaise with clients and ensure that, at a working level, everything is running smoothly.

You are expected to manage your analysts well so they are working efficiently towards the overall team objectives and manage upwards so there are "no surprises".

You are expected to know your industry / product inside out, and be the "technical" expert on the team on relevant industry / product matters

Its a tall order, and there is a reason many smart and talented people simply can't hack it. But doing all of these things is a prerequisite to being an effective senior banker, so there is no choice. We have high expectations of our associates and really value those individuals that can deliver.

 

It's definitely possible, but just as with everything else, will require a lot of networking and work. The thing about the associate program is that it isn't timed (analyst programs are typically two years, bump to 3rd, then usually you're out and moving on) - you are essentially being groomed to move up the chain to VP, etc. So with associates, it is more on you to find other opportunities if you are so inclined, unlike analysts, where it is almost expected that after either 2 or 3 years you will move on to B school, P/E, a boutique, etc. There are definitely plenty of opportunities available, but you just have to work the network and make it happen.

IBanker www.BankonBanking.com Articles, News, Advice and More Break Into Investment Banking

 

Matayo my current firm is languishing and sr. bankers aren't bringing in strong deals. It's just time for me to find other opportunities.

Regarding lateral to a BB. Not sure how I would do that without former BB investment banking experience. I'd assume most of them would look unfavorably on boutique banking even though the training was similar and majority of the bankers come from the BB.

I'm open to your thoughts on probability of that kind of move.

 

I interviewed for a few corp dev roles, and 2 of the VP interviewers were ex-bankers from non-bb. They said they had known the owners for quite a while due to networking, and the company had just raised a huge round (pre-ipo), and were at the size where they needed someone in house. Both had gotten roles through their existing network.

Of course, there are probably some heahdunters that would be ideal for your level as well, but, I wouldn't know who that is.

 

The most common exit from that role is to go to a senior position with one of your clients. PE will be tough but now impossible - you will likely take a step back in pay and responsibility so be ready to answer that in any interviews. I also know a few former VPs (myself included) that have left to start their own operating companies.

 

OP: There are plenty of opportunities out there. This is because banking is an extremely dynamic career. People at the top quit all the time, and banks start sourcing from lower banks, who then start sourcing from other banks. Plus MDs move from bank to bank every year but can't always bring their ex-juniors, and so they recruit from outside. Lastly, from time to time some bulges have bad years in terms of comp (either due to rogue traders who lose billions of dollars or something bad happening in Europe, etc.) and senior associates leave in droves and they need to replace them. Then a few years later they fix their comp and everything works out for the best.

Anyway point is: just because your path is not traditional does not mean it's impossible.

On the PE side I think it'll be tough unless you can talk to real industry expertise. Both industry knowledge and transaction experience. If either is lacking it'll be close to impossible. I've seen VP-level bankers move to PE but these guys and gals were exceptional standouts in banking and had enough industry knowledge to compensate.

On Corp Dev side, I think it's extremely doable. Corporations love hiring bankers for corp dev, finance or IR positions. In my experience that's usually the top exit opp for a VP-level candidate.

On lateraling banking side, in addition to above, I think it's definitely possible. You just need to continue chipping away. You probably won't get into a top group, but you can always get into a top MM (Jefferies) or lower bulge (Citi/european guys) with enough persistence. Then you spend a year or two there, and assuming you do well, top-BB is within reach. One important thing here is that you need to be flexible about repeating or taking years back. When banks hire mid-level candidates they want real runway for you to succeed. But honestly this shouldn't be an issue as time is relative. So if you leave right now and get a 3rd year associate spot with expectation to become VP next year, I'd consider that. And then you might need to do that again a few years from now if you want to jump again. But that's life and ultimately you need to build a career in something you want to do, so who cares.

 

Appreciate all the color.

Assume on the PE side, at my level they'd have to give me carry. It's not like I'm a 2nd/3rd year analyst that can do a 2 year assoc program. Also, you're 100% right on industry experience. Without some really solid understanding in the respective industry, I'm probably out.

On the banking side, I could live with taking a step back to A3, but I'd need to feel confident that would lead back to VP in 12-18 months max. Otherwise, I could just be spinning my wheels. As far as BB is concerned, I'm not to confident in BB IBD right now. CS hired a new CEO who has pretty much scared all the bankers. DB for the first time ever put the head of IBD in North America. RBS laid off 10k+ employees who will be/are shifting around the field. JPM is making a serious push to grow out their Private Banking business and IBD is kind of taking a back seat to that in terms of allocated resources. GS wouldn't hire someone that didn't come from--at least--an elite boutique... ever. I'm out on Citi/UBS/Soc Gen/BNP... have little to no confidence in those firms. As for MM, Jefferies--for a while at least--had a rockstar Healthcare desk. I'd gun for that, but my experience in that space is limited, so they'd probably bump me back to A2 or decline period. Just thinking out loud here...

On the corp dev side, it would have to be pretty compelling and the business would have to have significant cash on hand and be willing to issue high yield paper for me to be excited. If its a dev role that just kicks the tires of potential targets and pulls the trigger once every 2 years, then it would be tough for me to stay motivated. Also, once you go to corp dev, I'd imagine its incredibly tough to ever get back into the financial firm world again. Though I'm not necessarily saying that is a bad thing.

What about going to a portfolio company held by a MM PE? I'd imagine they'd give anyone on the corp dev side good pay and carry as any Accretive value you bring in should--theoretically--up EBITDA which enhances PE exit. Again, thinking out loud here.

 

Well banking hiring works pretty straightforwardly - banks & boutiques are divided into 3-4 tiers and I would say (ie approximate) up to 90% of hiring amongst junior & midlevel bankers is moving up one tier.

Also a lot would depend on your sector. Ie Jefferies is BB when it comes to healthcare and energy, but MM when it comes to industrials or tech. But nonetheless it'd work something like (subjectively):

Tier 1: GS, MS, JPM, Centerview, Qatalyst (for tech) Tier 2: Barcap, BAML, DB, CS, Citi, Lazard, Perella, Evercore, Greenhill Tier 2.5: Wells Fargo, Jefferies, UBS, RBC Tier 3: Stifel, Piper Jaffray, Oppenheimer, Raymond James, William Blair, Baird, BMO, and good sector-specific boutiques Tier 4: Regional boutiques

One thing I'd warn against is going by "public consensus" out there in terms of what bank is good right now and what isn't. The problem is that while rarely wrong, it can oftentimes be very outdated, and bad years at certain banks are followed by good years.

 

Veritatis est omnis dicta facilis. Ut placeat qui incidunt assumenda quia. Debitis et quo corrupti eum.

Velit voluptas error voluptatem. Sapiente magnam necessitatibus qui culpa. Laborum inventore vel labore et atque deleniti.

Consequuntur vero non fuga nam recusandae et. Laudantium eum aut molestiae eum blanditiis autem. Doloribus natus eaque ea exercitationem facere est modi nostrum. Minus ad facere iste eum. Cumque dolor consequatur sed similique error dolores illum quisquam. Maiores qui hic sit blanditiis et.

 

Sapiente iusto voluptas sed qui suscipit labore. Voluptas doloremque impedit labore nisi rerum eos. Quo placeat doloremque iste alias eligendi repellendus.

Inventore perferendis ex quibusdam aut vero labore consectetur. Necessitatibus pariatur nobis nesciunt accusamus consectetur at sit. Pariatur est saepe ab optio. Corporis aut eaque aspernatur eum labore quas explicabo velit.

Et recusandae magni repellat quia error dolores. Aut dolores possimus delectus accusamus. Amet pariatur deserunt quidem dignissimos expedita consequatur ea deleniti. Error amet assumenda quo harum et aliquam. Impedit ex in repellat voluptatum eum est omnis ex.

Asperiores qui voluptatem voluptate. Delectus nobis qui architecto.

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. (++) 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
3
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
4
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
5
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
6
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
7
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
8
DrApeman's picture
DrApeman
98.9
9
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
10
bolo up's picture
bolo up
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”