Pro Poker Player Wants Finance Job
Here's my (I think) unique situation. All comments and advice appreciated.
- 3.6 (graduated magna) from top liberal arts school...but that was 7 years ago.
- I've been very successfully playing poker for a living for the last five years. Not so successfully that you've ever heard of me, but I've done well.
- I started a small Internet company about a year and a half ago and sold it to a Fortune 100 corporation a few months ago.
I'm ready to be doing something other than poker with my life and finance has always seemed like something I would be good at and might enjoy. The skill sets really overlap and I know plenty of people who have switched careers successfully - both poker-to-finance and the reverse. I'm a better analyst than I am a schmoozer, so I'm focusing on the trading/hedge fund/asset management neighborhood and not so much on i-banking or sales. I'm good with math and logic, but I have no education that would qualify me as any kind of a quant. While we're at it, I have very little accounting/finance education/knowledge. I have the idea that this does not disqualify me from the jobs I'm looking at, though the state of the market (and perhaps my age?) may have changed that.
Yes, I know the market is in the shitter, the industry has been irrevocably changed in the past few months, and my competition for these jobs now includes thousands of newly-out-of-work people with industry experience. That's pretty daunting, but this is what I want to pursue, so here I am.
My gameplan is to use my alumni/poker connections to find people working at shops I'm interested in and get interviews through internal referrals. I've interviewed at D.E. Shaw and SIG, but nothing has come of either.
Where should I look? Who should I talk to? Who hires people with my kind of profile? What say ye?
seems like you might want consider targeting options/prop trading firms. you should do a search because there is plenty of info here on prop trading.
Thanks for the responses, everyone. Some very useful stuff here.
I don't know a ton about the prop firms, but I'm not sure that angle is so appealing to me. One of the things that's important to me is to work as a part of a team in some kind of social atmosphere (as contrasted with the life of an online poker pro, which is very solitary). As I understand it, prop traders don't share information/strategies and it's every man for himself. Even the company you "work" for only makes money from commissions you generate. If I'm going to sit alone and stare at a screen all day, I'm better off just playing poker.
Maybe there are more team-oriented shops, though. I will do some more research. I appreciate the idea.
"I'm focusing on the trading/hedge fund/Asset Management "
I'm sure there's a poker/trading crossover, but I don't see one for asset management. You do need a true financial/accounting/econ education for that.
As for trading, look into prop shops. Look for one that offers something in terms of training. You would have to front a little dough, and go without income for awhile, but that shouldn't be a problem for you.
Most people - justifably - dismiss most prop shops, but there are paople who do well there.
Also try HF's other than SIG & DE. Those places are big time, and have a quant orientation (DE especially)
Good to know.
Yeah, I keep finding intriguing-looking quant firms, but I'm not sure any of them will be interested in my profile. Any HFs in particular you think I should check out?
just to clarify because there seems to be some confusion. theres a clear distinction between being a quant and being a trader. quantitative funds will have trading platforms and certain trading desks will have quants but they play their own specific role. you need higher education (at least a masters in subjects like math, physics, comp sci) to be a quant and a lot of the work involves modeling and coding. traders on the other hand use these models to price and assess risk for their book. youll have less luck w/HFs though simply because they hire straight out of school and have no incentive to take you. and to be clear, SIG is essentially a market making prop shop, not a hedge fund similar to Citadel's marketmaking shop and JSC (formed by former SIG traders)
In terms of your profile the best thing you can do now is turn your experience of starting, operating and selling a business into your biggest asset. Really examine what skills and knowledge were gained from that experience. While you can certainly make the case for poker building a logic/math based skill set, your funding/start/operate/sell experience (sounds like the only real "deal" experience you have) should be the focus of why you are as qualified or more qualified than an undergrad coming out with "official" financial training. Besides if your insider connections have already landed you interviews its only time tell you buddies get you a spot! There is no secret how the game works for most people.
I would look into studying for the CFA exam (at least passing level I) or going back to school for a BS in finance/accounting. There are some very important skill sets that you will need to know in order to be considered by any reputable firm in finance.
For instance, if you don't know about the time value of money and you dont understand how the financial statements flow together, etc. then you're going to have a hard time getting someone to hire you in finance unless it's a relatively undesirable job in operations.
You are going to need to get some type of educational substance on your resume to show that you know finance and understand basic financial concepts. This is not just something that will need to be on your resume, but it's something that will be essential if you want to do well yourself. There's just too much knowledge that you are going to lack if you have no financial/accounting educational background.
The only way to overcome this really is going to be to learn to trade forex or day trade with your own money. On the plus side, your resume as a business founder and professional poker player is colorful enough that it may help you get into a quality MBA program which could open a lot of doors for you. 12 months in an accelerated and high quality MBA program may be what you're looking for to launch your career to the next level.
Then again...jobs in finance at the moment are damn near impossible to get even for the best educated with the finest credentials. So now may not be the time to fight an uphill battle. I recommend grad school if you're serious about moving into a long term finance career.
what is this bullshit? understanding financial statements? that's laughable. the guy got an interview with D.E.Shaw. I don't think he needs to go do some bullshit CFA to be considered by any "reputable" firm in finance when D.E. Shaw only interviews people with 3.8+ from a good school.
"day trading" doesn't carry much weight at all considering most firms want smart people they can mold.
OP: you have the intrigue factor working your favor. All you need now is some solid experience, which, if you are getting interviews with SIG and D.E. Shaw as you say, you would only need to crack open Falcon Crack's Heard on the Street to do well in interviews.
You could go do an MBA if that's what interests you atm, and if I were you, I would probably take this route and start up another firm, albeit with more connections and capital.
You'll be fine, just start reading up on finance starting with some classic books like When Genius Fails, etc etc.. and read some technical books like Hull. Accounting is helpful if you feel up to it, but it's by no means required for trading.
I'm under the impression from my research and other responses here that there are desirable jobs available to people with no finance background at the shops I'm considering. Although as I said in OP, I'm sure these jobs (like all jobs these days) are more scarce now.
One thing I didn't mention in OP is that I took a course in financial modeling recently. So when you mention, "How financial statements flow together," I do know a bit about that, though I'm not sure how comfortable I would be trying to use that knowledge in an interview.
I don't think CFA or getting another undergrad degree in finance will help me, frankly. MBA is an option, though I'm not sure how much easier it is to get a desirable job with an MBA and my current resume vs. just my current resume. I don't have such a high impression of what you learn in an MBA program. From what I've heard, these programs are a lot about making connections that then get you jobs post-grad. That's fine, but it seems like a lot of money and time for not a lot of education. I'm sure this is a myopic view, but it's the one I have based on the experiences of friends. If you think I'm wrong here, by all means correct me.
didn't we all learn time value of money in like middle school? how financial statements flow? undesirable job like operations? give me a fkn break and stop giving people bad advice
I often wonder which of these resume points I ought to emphasize. It really differs from person to person, I think. Some people love the poker angle and want to hear all about it, while for others it's a red flag. Some people only want to talk about the entreprenurial stuff and only mention poker in passing.
Luckily, reading people is a significant skill in my current line of work. ;)
tons of people come into finance, particularly into quant positions, with no knowledge of finance. you aren't tricking anybody if you do, its just that lots of those places either don't think it's important, or they figure that as long as you're smart, they can teach you easily enough.
I'd say if you're interested in that kind of thing, pick up a book on probability theory stochastic processes or something and read it. I suggest Shreve's Stochastic Calculus for Finance vol 2. The only background it requires is a little probability and probably some analysis, and it goes through all the big topics from the beginning - measure theory, filters, stochastic processes, martingales, markov, brownian motion etc, before going into a whole bunch of valuation models.
This sounds like it might be over my head, but I'll give it a look.
Yes, I guess I am totally out of line and completely clueless when I advise somebody to learn a little bit of finance/accounting as a way to increase their chances of getting into a finance career. Clearly that was a stupid suggestion. My bad guys.
As for the undesirable job in operations comment...yes, I realize those op jobs are not so undesirable right now. I didn't mean to talk down ops in any way; I merely was referring to the fact that even the best operations job is usually considered second priority to the top tier banking/trading/research jobs out there.
greenman101, please shut up. you clearly have no idea wtf you're talking about and have never worked in the industries about which you so splendiferously opine.
as of late, it seems this board has been invaded by more and more ignorant blowhards. dont know how much longer i'll be able to stay on the board at htis rate
the "undesirable job in operations" is what i think is funny. Man, if you only knew how many people are doing whatever they can do right now to get this position in both sell side and buyside firms.
wastes of time.
contact me, and we'll take it from there.
honestly, as a poker player, u should really just look exclusively into trading, and for you, your most likely entry point will be prop shops. forget all the other crap. a CFA will get you nowhere and is a waste of time. and everyone and their mother is trying to get into a top MBA program at this point. plus without pre-MBA work experience, the degree and recruiting prospects won't really be the foot in door that you're expecting.
anyway, one of my best friends from HS who was also my roommate in college went passed on finance to become a professional poker player and its clear theres a ton of overlap with prop trading:
multiple screens taking in lots of information at a time use of sophisticated statistics software
knowing your players (the trading realm especially if you specialize in a specific product is quite small and you get to kno most of the big players/regulars)
understanding and assessing risk playing the percentages learning patience and how to grind it out longterm outlook
quick emotionless decisions dealing with losses and bouncing back
so what you need to do is leverage this specific experience and get yourself some interviews which you have obviously already done. given that youve been able to land time wiht DEShaw and SIG, you should have no trouble getting more. theres a ton of info on the htreads about other prop shops.
now instead of wasting your time with the CFA, read trading books and do interview prep: ie brush up on brainteasers, master your conditional probability, etc.
people I know who get their foot in the door through prop shops have no trouble moving into banks or hedge funds later on, if thats what you aim to do but from what I can see, this is your best bet in terms of a career in finance which will also be most fulfilling to you based on what youve mentioned
Seriously we do. Many of our traders are gamers of one kind or another.
I know that you've had a number of comments telling you to look at Proprietary Trading firms and I'd have to agree with those comments.
I'd be happy to speak with you about trader opportunities at our shop in Austin. Drop me a line or give me a call.
Kim Haynes Recruiting Specialist Kershner Trading Group khaynes (at) kershnertrading (dot) com 512.439.8160
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