Exit opps from top prop firms/market makers
how are the exit opportunities from a market making prop shop, like Getco or Jane Street? a lot of people from my school (top target) choose these places over places like GS, and i'm wondering whether that really makes sense or if they're thinking too short term. once you leave a place like Getco or jsc, does having that on your resume mean anything to people? would a place like GS, or a quant hedge fund, hire someone from one of these places?
For many people at BBs (desk VPs/ Senior Traders/ Quants), JSC, GETCO, Jump etc are the exit opps.
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i agree that you can definitely reach associate/VP level pay faster at a getco/jsc than at a bank. but i really doubt that there are traders at these places making what MDs make.
also, what if you turn out to not be very successful at the prop shop? aren't you basically screwed? whereas if you are not very good at GS, you still have a solid name on your resume?
Exit opportunities for Prop Traders in Market-Making/Arbitrage Trading firms (Originally Posted: 10/08/2014)
I would appreciate some advice with regards to exit opportunities for Prop Traders in Market-Making/Arbitrage Trading firms. Can they go into S&T in BBs or say Treasury department in a bank/corporate? Any other options?
I've spent about 3 years after college in one of the many discretionary prop trading firms where remuneration is purely a % of individual P&L.Don't think this is where I want to be in the long run.
I'm considering joining a prop firm around the likes of IMC, Optiver & Flow Traders that pays a salary. However, I know that the turnover is pretty high in the prop industry & am worried that if it doesn't work out for me there, i'll be out of career options given that it will be far too long after I graduate to start a new career path, e.g. joined a big corporate.
Any ideas on the exit career options for prop traders?
Thanks.
Bump
Similar situation as OP, except I'm graduating this year. But love to hear a bit about this industry and it's opportunities, especially relating to how sustainable the strategy is and how transferable the skills are. And, maybe an overly simplistic question, but how good do you think an arb based strategy really is? Also, and this is a dumb question but I just don't get it, why do these firms bother doing market making if they have the opportunity to just do proprietary based trades?
I'll be honest, the only answer I've seen other than going to another prop firm is b-school.
Doesn't sound that attractive... is is possible to go to a bank S&T?
Almost all of these market making firms take prop risk too. CTC is the only firm I know of that has a negative stance towards discretionary trades.
Prop trading has few exit opps because it's the end of the line for a lot of people. Seeking further education (technical or professional) is probably one's best bet to transition to another field if someone leaves prop for one reason or another.
I think you are approaching this the wrong way. You should decide what you want to do, what you like, and then see how to get there. Not see what the most common path is and go down that one, that will only put you into the same position you are now 3 years down the line. Get control of your life. If you are in that seat you must be a smart bloke, so with hard work the world is your oyster. I know traders who have moved to other roles in finance or to the most random things like sailing instructors, doctors, lawyers, engineers, programmers, consultants.... Hell, there was an article in BBG about a DB FX trader who sings opera now.
Exit Opps on Prop Trading & HFT (Originally Posted: 04/17/2013)
Hello WSO,
Just throught I would put a discussion on the current status on prop trading & high frequency trading in terms their career development. We have seen the removal of traditional prop trading services with institutions that are registered as a bank holding company, and therefore trading has been focused to "pure" firms. These include FNYS, Getco, Jane Street,etc . Which leads me to wonder what do traders in these firms do in terms of their future career development? Do they mainly move to hedge funds, or other prop trading firms, etc? How do top tier mba's (top 25) view prop & HFT in terms of work experience? I understand that it is very difficult for these individuals in prop trading and HFT to make a career switch to private equity & investment banking (M&A and capital raising). Also, historically its very difficult for a trader to stay in the industry due to stress and high risk nature of the industry, which is why most of us will never see a person actually trade beyond 35. Which makes me curious to this question on the exit opps of Prop and high frequency trading?
the compensation for the top folks at jump and getco positively dwarfs anything you're making at GS, unless you are Blankfein. think 8 figures for the owners / partners.
If you suck, you won't ever step foot into a place like Getco or Jump. They are meticulous about who they hire, and they are small enough not to rely on massive bureaucratic processes like GS does, meaning a few might slip through the cracks at GS, but not at these small prop shops.
Came here searching for something else. Its a rather funny argument. Career progression is a buzz word of industries that don't pay well, cheap labor from irrational people who value their emotions more than their true worth. There is only one objective on the street - make your own fcuk you money and get lost to your own private retirement haven. Btw once a trader (and successful) is always a trader, has been like this at least since the days of silk route. Ask your question to traders at major oil companies, and also ask them if they would hire you if your an HBS or Wharton alum. That will be the true worth of those pieces of paper.
I did BB trading for 4 years on an exotic rates derivatives desk. I learned a ton and made great money, but it was time to move on. Aside from being less than optimistic about the nature of the industry, I think the skills you gain in trading is simply too narrow, thus restricting you to a very specific product/strategy. Of course, the obvious question is: "If you're making a ton of money in trading, why would you want to ever leave?" Fair point, but for many even successful traders, the job becomes an unbearable grind; the stress and monotony of the work makes one wonder whether he can apply his talents to do something far more interesting, even within finance. This is where a top MBA comes into play. It essentially allows you to transition into a different industry or say switch from trading into investment management because of the pedigree, network, and on-campus recruiting. Ultimately, it's about having options in your professional life; the more options you have the better off you will be. I arrived at the conclusion that I did not want to be a trader for the rest of my career. This is also why I'm doing an MBA rather than an MFin since the latter would have pigeonholed me into a quant.
Hi May I ask about your experience? Now I got 2 opportunities from rates option trader role and investment (portfolio analytics) role to choose between.
Is there a way I can email/message for detail information?
Many thanks in advance.
career progression for any top/good trader should be a house on a private island..fuck careers!!!
If only Nathan Rothschild had thought this way, the world would have been such a great place, just like they show in the movies.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but this is the irrationality that a lot of these MBA programs cash in. The concept of MBA is not bad, its useful for people to take a break and think where they want their life to head. But the underlying ground reality is that a lot of these people never made it big in their first careers and so they want to start afresh. It does not require a Freudian genius to understand it. And please stop following the mass propaganda of PR folks who show ever green paradises to sell their stuff (boy they are really good at it).
Think simply! At best, an MBA would help you seek funding for your very own startup (funded by Venture Investors). If you are good at trading and make money with your own understanding of the market microstructure and creative ideas, then why not start your own fund? Or be an individual trader and start trading several assets (or classes of assets) simultaneously. Trading is not bad, just like any other profession. Its the people who are stuck in the wrong place. Nonetheless, your exit options are unlimited if you have enough money.
What part of my post was "irrational?" I merely said that the MBA is a great way to explore new careers and expand your horizons.
Your statement that "a lot of these people never made it big" is true for MBA students in general but less true as you move up the school rankings. I have heard this argument countless times, and it bothers me because it presupposes that successful people have no desire to ever switch careers. The fact of the matter is that the elite b-schools get plenty of people who had AWESOME careers in finance, consulting, strategy, tech, etc., but wanted to round out their skillset, expand their network, and explore careers that they may not have considered before. Thus, in many ways, the MBA is the ideal place for the right combination of dynamic professional and personal growth.
Your last paragraph tells me that you never worked in trading. First, it's become extremely difficult to make consistent good money in trading, whether you're at a top bank, hedge fund, or prop shop. I don't think this is going to change but will only get worse. Second, do you have any freaking idea how hard it is to start your own fund or the ridiculous amount of stress involved in managing your own money? It's not a great lifestyle. There is a reason why even successful traders want to leave the industry and are now increasingly looking to b-schools to make the appropriate adjustments and hedge their bets in a precarious global economy.
Is this because of Algo trading and it being more computer programs than the discretion of the traders?
I just noticed your signature. A discussion on de/merits of MBA is therefore biased and subjective.
First, while I do agree that exotics will die down slowly as the bourgeois now know that the higher dimensional math of those derivatives will only make IBs richer, an open market is the corner stone of democratic governance which is not going to disappear any time soon. Trading as a profession has been there for centuries and will stay for several to come. Needless to say it will keep attracting smartest minds of the time.
Second, I do. After a career in prop trading with a major global market maker, I too moved on. I started managing my own capital trading in the equities and debt market. Sure it gets boring sometimes as we as traders feed on volatility and market inefficiencies which are not always present, so I started dealing in exchange traded and physical commodities. This to me is a career progression for a trader. Next is international procurement and sales. Think business, rest is all puff!
I see. Interesting that you're unable to respond to any of my statements on the MBA. You outright dismiss the notion that super successful people may have a need to get an MBA for various reasons.
There are so many more interesting stuff to do in business than trading. Glad I'm leaving the industry. Also, with the exception of the elite quant and HFT firms, trading does not attract the brightest minds.
I did not dismiss that notion completely, what I argued was that going to an MBA (ranked or not) might not serve one's purpose of career advancement in all cases. All it does is emphasize the fact that something is wrong with your own self that you feel a need to keep switching careers. An MBA is materially helpful only in some cases (I have mostly seen so in services and consulting sectors), but then a crap MBA should suffice. An ex boss of mine at a major ICT firm (Fortune 500) was required an MBA certificate to move onto an executive management position, but it was a subjective need and so he went for a crap course which did not even require his attendance. He was a rational being.
While I do come from a scientific background, and worked on developing and implementing order book based HFT strategies, I do not think that HFT is the only side of modern finance that attracts intellect. On the contrary, often it crushes all that you have got. Ever heard of John Paulson, he wasn't a quant. While Scholes and Merton were involved in that all famous crash of LTCM trading debt stat arb.
I can't tell if you're trolling or just plain ignorant.
Yes, the MBA may not serve one's purpose in ALL cases. I never once made that claim. Classic strawman here.
Your point that something is "wrong" with one who wishes to switch careers is totally ridiculous. As I said there are plenty of very successful people in their 20's who want to try something else and go to b-school to make it happen. Now if someone in their say 50's wanted to make a drastic change, then you may have a point. But our discussion is limited to MBA students, the vast majority of whom are at fairly early stages in their professional lives. Wanting to apply their skills to a different firm/industry in no way indicates that they have failed or are somehow flawed.
You mention that an MBA is materially helpful in only SOME cases, which is technically correct. You then follow that up with a personal observation about services and consulting. You are wrong of course; the MBA is helpful in a lot of industries, including most areas of finance (trading and macro hedge funds are exceptions), corporate strategy, product management at tech, startups (business development and capital raising), marketing, media, and others. This does NOT mean that an MBA by itself will guarantee success, but it can open a lot of doors for someone wishing to break in.
The anecdote regarding your ex-boss is not very illuminating. In his case, the company told him to just get a MBA (by the way, the MBA is a degree, not a certificate) to move up to C-suite and probably paid for it. They most likely did not care which school he got it from, so yes, the name brand did not matter for him. My comments pertained to those seeking a full-time MBA with the purpose of transitioning to something else. There, an MBA from a top school can be a huge game changer.
I did not say that HFT is the only side of modern finance that attracts intellect. My claim was that in TRADING, with the exception of HFT and quant funds, it does not tend to attract the best minds. The smartest STEM students from the best colleges are now gravitating towards tech, startups, Phd, and some finance (quant funds, top prop).
where do ex traders hope to end up after mba? banking? consulting? i don't think mba is for people who are 'exploring' different careers. it's primarily for people who are trying to do career switch, into finance or consulting
Getting a Ph.D. after I'm done with trading (in the far future) to go into academia and have summer vacations :D
dude...any kind of trading IS THE EXIT OPP
I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious. If the latter, you're totally wrong on this.
I think s/he has fallen to the advertising propaganda on several fronts, not limited to the MBA as an "entrepreneurial career" notion. I guess some people just do not understand that becoming an efficient "administrator" of a business does not necessarily make them entrepreneurs. Every generation has several examples of people who sustainably become rich by mastering the art of their trade, and then there are countless unverifiable legends of those who got lucky on a treasure hunt.
How much does a Stanford MBA costs these days, like 150k? If you are not comfortable with trading, you could build a decent technology business with that amount of money and little help from VCs/angels (citing here the founder of Delicious who was a quant). Entrepreneurship is not administration, and a good trader is an entrepreneur.
Nut up or shut up. If you're a trader, you have to live with uncertainty. If you can't, then shut up. You shouldn't be trading. Go do something else. You can push the risk premium curve higher, and I'll collect.
On a more serious note, it depends on what type of trading you're doing. Some guys exit to do start ups, other guys exit to do software engineering. Other guys start their own funds or do something else entirely like a real estate business. Life is rife with uncertainty. You have to deal with it.
exit opportunities at prop trading firms (Originally Posted: 02/07/2009)
What are the exit opportunities at 1st or 2nd tier prop trading firms? Is it easy to move around after? What are the risks involved with working at prop trading firms in terms of career advancement? What's the chance of moving into BB S&T after working as a prop trader for a couple of years? Would a prop trading position better prepare for S&T positions at BB than a Fed research analyst position? Considering Fed is more reputable in this case.
yes, the pay for owners/partners is going to be higher than BB MDs, but you are never going to become a partner at getco/jump. the pay for the traders is definitely going to have a lower ceiling than at GS, though the median may be higher.
sounds like you've already made up your mind. why'd you even ask the question? if you're mediocre, it doesn't matter where you land.
is this to go into BB prop trading? that business is getting scaled back big time.
Doesn't necessarily need to be BB prop trading only...BB market making as well. Just wondering if I start off at a prop trading firm, what's the chance I'll move into BB S&T and what's the timeline like.
I think lots of the people in prop trading firms tend to stay as the work environment is less hierachical + the pay is good. In BB S&T there are more structural problems and headaches...
I'd defer to Bondarb and others on this, but I don't think it's common to make the switch from prop firms to BBs. For some reason, that path is viewed with suspicion among hiring managers- probably because they themselves got their start in a bank training program and either rose through the ranks where they are now or jumped from one global bank to another... seems unfair because if you graduated in a shi$%y recruiting year, it's incredibly tough to break into S&T later on.
I think prop firms teach you to be entrepreneurial and have confidence in yourself, which would be great skills when starting a business. I've also read of some prop guys starting hedge funds, but this is really tough. Balyasny Asset Management, the Chicago-based fund with $1.9B AUM, was founded by Schonfeld Securities trader Dmitry Balyasny.
I would go with the Fed- universally respected, will be supporting really bright economists- leaves the door open for grad school in econ (Fed is one of the few jobs respected by econ faculty)... and the experience is good for thematic research at a bank or macro consulting firm (large data sets/programming in Stata or SAS).
though i believe it is difficult to go to a bank, what are peoples thoughts on working at a broker like an icap if u dont cut in in prop i would think that it would make a lot of sense as ur building up relationships with traders and would make it easier to start as a broker ( i know this happens regularly from trading at banks but was less certain from prop shops in chicago?)
Prop Trading exit opps? (Originally Posted: 04/24/2014)
Hi, I was wondering what a career path would be like for someone at a top prop shop. I've heard getting into a good MBA from prop trading is very hard, as you don't develop leadership, is this true? I was also curious about GPA cutoffs for prop shops, as I my GPA is slightly below 3.5 in a quantitative major, yet I was still able to score interviews with top prop trading firms, but unable to do so for any IB firms.
It really depends on your long-term goals. If you're a quant geek who just wants to make money, then a place like getco/jump/jane street is much more preferable to banks. But if you're interested in transitioning into hedge funds or asset management, you should try to do BB S&T. You learn a lot of transferable skill sets, get great experience, and make great connections. Look at the profiles of people at top hedge funds; very few of them worked at prop shops. They worked at BB's, other hedge funds, and/or top b-school.
The partners at jane street/getco will make 8 figures, but for people starting now that's not a realistic goal. The number of partners is pretty much capped and limited to the original founders. The starting base pay and bonus will be higher, but the very elite traders at banks will still make more than people at prop shops.
exit opps are start over again. Making the switch from prop trading to consulting at the moment. You could have pulled in serious money, your transferable skillset is limited to start anywhere but the bottom of the ladder. Go for it, have a blast, live the trader life, and then decide if its for you. it wasnt for me, i could predict lines going up and down, but felt very unfulfilled after a while, depending on what you trade, i may be able to lend you my strategies ;)
If you are at a top prop shop, there are no exit opps really; maybe founding your own prop shop is the only one, if you are really that good. The usual answer when somebody asks about the exit opps for prop trading is "if you were making a lot of money already why would you want to leave?".
I'm not sure about the MBA part but I guess it would make some sense to say that generally you are going to have a harder time making it into a top MBA program as the skillset you'll learn is very narrow. As far as developing leadership skills at a prop firm goes, unless you are very-very high up on the food chain, you won't develop any of it.
I think it is because prop firms are getting many less applicants than BBs, therefore they can afford to interview more people. From what I have read also they don't really care about side things (unless it is very relevant like being a top poker or chess player for instance), only your brainpower; and your GPA is not necessarily an indicator for your brainpower. For that matter they could just give you a short, first round interview, and in like ten minutes they will know whether you are going to have any chance at proving you are enough smart for their firm later on.
HFs?
hedge funds. based on your networking
So how does pay structure work out at top prop shops. Also, why are HFs a possible exit opp?
What are the main differences between BB S&T and a top prop firm. Why would someone choose one over the other?
I guess it goes something like
top prop + much better compensation starting from early on + meritocratic environment + very smart people to work with
BB s&t + prestige + gaining a wide network in the industry + much? better exit opps, provided you have the brand name on your CV + relatively a more secure job?
Not sure about the MBA part. I saw some people in top prop shops heading to MBA business schools ">M7 MBAs, so I guess its just up to your story.
it's not a question of being mediocre - even if you are a star trader at getco or jump, they are not going to make you a partner, that is for the few people who started the firm, and that is the way it will stay. whereas, at a bank, you can continue to be promoted if you are a star. i think these prop firms are better if you are not a star, but banks are better if you are. in any case, the original question was about exit opps. if you feel like you have topped out at getco/jsc, is a bank or HF going to be interested in you?
Prop Trading Exit Opportunities (Originally Posted: 03/12/2013)
Hi everyone. I am curious about the potential exit opps for prop traders. Say you make a series of really bad trades and get fired or for some reason beyond your control you lose your job. What is out there for a prop trader to fall back on?
I have been considering prop trading as a career but would like to know what else this skill set could be used for if something went wrong.
Thanks
This is an accurate assessment of the smaller prop shops. You are definitely thinking correctly. Very hard to get to partner level. Very difficult to get into 7 figures. 95% of the people don't make it there, and we recruit very bright people from top tier. Just because you are a brain and have a lot of potential doesn't mean it will get realized or recognized, despite there being less corporate BS at the smaller firms as compared to BB. If you go to JSC or Getco, you are not guaranteed to make tons of money. Good chance you will make 6 figures quickly, but a lot of people plateau in low to mid 6's. I am talking from experience at a prop shop similar to those mentioned, not sure if these other guys are. qqq, feel free to PM me for more details.
great question, also interested
You morph into another prop trading job or start likely from ground up(different job and likely different field). Likely the latter as not many prop firms will want to hire you after a series of bad trades(bad enough that a firm would want to fire you)
look at resumes, they usually hop from firm to firm taking as many trade secrets in their head with them as possible. oh i've heard the, when I was at company X this is how we did it, we had so many problems at company Y when we did it this way, countless times by now.
So you either stay in trading or start from the ground up in an entirely different field? I was assuming there would be some overlap into some other kind of investing. More of maybe, well if you get fired or your firm cuts back, such and such industry likes the skill set of traders. Plus, what if 15 years down the road I don't want to do trading anymore? I understand a lot of this boils down to your individual ability and connections. I am asking about a general overview of typical options.
I want to better understand the nature of the risks of prop trading. I have found a ton of information on how great it can be but nothing on if it doesn't work out. Kind of like being a professional athlete. You're on top of the world but if you get cut early in your career, you can find yourself doing used car commercials for awhile.
I guess my next question is, how bad do you have to screw up before you get canned? I know there isn't an exact number and it depends on a lot. What I am asking is out of a group that may get hired, is there a trend of how many get sent packing? As a new trader going up against very experienced traders, it's logical to assume you're going to get burned a few times early on. How much learning space do they give you?
Thanks again, you guys are a big help!
It's an incredibly narrow skill set. You bounce from prop shop to prop shop or maybe a very fast money fund like millennium if you're great. Otherwise your likely looking at an MBA. There just aren't many useful skills you learn for use outside prop trading.
This is exactly right. You develop virtually no transferable business skills as a prop trader. You either try to make a ton of money and not have to worry about exit opps, or you need to get an MBA to make the transition. Trading to investment management almost never happens.
Prop trading is a broad catch all. There's a huge difference between a trader at a high-end prop shop (e.g. Getco / Jane Street) and a trader at an arcade or mediocre firm. The latter has few exit opps, but the former has a lot of options.
what would you say are the options for the former?
I agree with this. Guy at places such as Getco/Jane Street/jump/hudson river, etc., will have more exit opps since they're super smart and have strong technical skills. However, they still won't be able to get into non-quant hedge funds, investment management, private equity. They would have way more options in tech than pure finance.
one phrase is all you need... "you want fries with that?"
BoomerSooner, I work as a prop trader for an investment bank boutique (Europe).
I'd say most shops/bank are willing to work with you for at least six months (if you haven't worked as a trader before) as long as you don't lose too much money because of stupidtiy and demonstrate some willingness to suffer/learn. Also you're not expected to outperform your more senior peers.. however, this job really sucks if you don't make any profits.. so from my experience, it's usually the junior trader who quits before he gets fired.
I share your concerns about exit ops. mbavsmfin nailed it, though I'm note sure about an MBA - my guess is that prop traders do have a hard time applying to MBA programs too, because you cant demonstrate any leadership abilities and so on.
Your last paragraph is correct. Adcom at elite MBA programs hate traders because of their lack of leadership and teamwork skills as well as the lack of transferable business skills.
i knew 3 people that didn't get mba's. they all started their own start ups without spending 200K+ on a two year circle jerk of rationalization.
Go back and read the excellent WSO post by eskimoroll on how HBS helped him with his startup. I'm not saying that you HAVE to get an MBA to succeed in startups or business in general but rather that an MBA could help tremendously depending on the person, his goals, situation, etc.
It's pretty funny when traders and programmers routinely mock MBA without knowing much about it or what goes on at the top b-schools. You seem to belong to that group.
Sales.
You need to stop acting like the expert on all things trading and MBA's. When 1) you aren't a trader and 2) you don't have an MBA.
As a former trader now in school, i think i know more about this than you do.
Either way, if you don't want an MBA that's totally fine. But when posters such as yourself and justin88 go on a self-righteous trader rampage of "if you're making money, why would you need an MBA?" I feel the need to offer arguments for an MBA. There are plenty of good reasons to not go; it ultimately depends on the person and what he wants. To dismiss the MBA outright though is a bit silly.
Finally, it's quite presumptuous to assume that every successful trader should stick with trading, as if trading is the "holy grail" of one's professional life. Believe it or not, there are many traders out there who actually want to develop transferable business skills and learn more in-depth about how business works.
1) you are not a former trader(your posts insinuating that you were are laughable) and you sure weren't a trader at a prop firm(which is what this thread was about) 2) you do not learn how businesses "work" getting your cutesy little MBA 3) you are just some geek that thinks the world will finally give them respect once they have 3 letters. You need to take a few pills of humility before you start applying for internships.
Woah. So much bitterness and anger in your posts. Did you lose your girlfriend to an MBA student? Were you rejected at M7 mba programs?
Classic wannabe-MBA-geek with a banal response.
Seriously, stop jerking yourself off with the MBA non-sense. NOBODY CARES. Plenty of people at my prop went onto MBA/JD, plenty went to F-500, plenty went to start-ups, and plenty went onto hedge funds. Your "catch-all" presumptuous attitude about props/trading/MBA/business in general shows how little you know and how much you have to learn.
Goal!!!!!!
will brady's mba rebranding be as successful as his wso rebranding through this new account?
This account has mentioned Brady in other posts... That's all kind of weird
Exit Opp - Prop Trader with firm in Chicago (Originally Posted: 03/14/2013)
Hey guys, so I'm in need of serious help and I hope by posting this here I can save others the pain and suffering that I have been through. Here's the deal, I started working with a prop firm in Chicago (Tower Hill) about a year ago. I was really excited about the opportunity because the firm has been around for several years (Series 56 guys operate under Great Point Capital). Little did I know that the training method had been drastically changed from how they gained the successful traders that they have now. Here's how it works: The company starts you off trading 5 shares per stock with buying power of $2000. You have a daily stop loss of $10. After 8 out of 10 successful trading days you get bumped up to 10 shares. The shares double each time you have proven yourself. Sounds easy enough, right? Well the company has hired about 100 traders since the new training style started back in Nov. 2011 and has not produced one profitable trader. The previous retention rate with the old training method was 1 of 10. Most, not all, trainers here hate this method and will not give you the time of day because they don't believe the method is successful.
An intelligent person would have checked out 6 months ago but I'm stubborn and honestly can't find a trading gig anywhere. I'm thinking that this training program is probably a stain on my resume at this point. This is where I hope you guys can help. Are there any reputable trading schools in the Chicago area? My experience with most of these companies follows the old adage "those that can't do, teach".
Thanks in advance for your advice.
Their exit option is they go start their own funds, its not tough to raise capital when your a star and have a track record of success at a top firm.
I'm not sure what you mean by "trading school". If you want to trade, and you are having no luck getting into any of the Chicago trading firms, print off 100 resumes and go stand in the lobby of the CBOT at 1:30 and 3:30. You won't get into an elite firm but there are plenty of small trading shop and self funded trading shops looking for junior help. You won't trade right away and you'll get paid dirt but at least you'll learn. The "training program" you are in now is not going to be an effective way to learn the biz.
PM if your interested in other exit opps---I have some first hand experience
***If your dead set on individual equities this post isn't as helpful. CBOT has Indicies, Commodities, and Treasuries.
CornTrader, thanks for your post. I'm certainly open to other exit opps. Would you mind emailing me at thillproptrader@gmail? I don't have enough banana points to PM you. Thanks!
There are 0 exit opps from your current experience or any similar firm. There are very few exit opps from even good trading firms unless you have had quite a bit of success and that would only to into other trading firms.
CornTrader's advice is solid and I know somebody that did this and was successful just a year or two ago. Working on your programming can open some doors, too. Anything you can do to show that you are willing to put in work and can be useful.
This is unfortunately very true. I am a at a reputable firm and doing well, but I'm trying to exit prop trading completely. Very hard for firms to give you a look after you have been out of college for a while. So at this point, I'm just hoping to save some cash and retire in 10 years.
Help! Prop Trader looking for exit opps (Originally Posted: 06/26/2014)
I am a prop equity trader at an arcade firm, came to WSO to look for exit opportunities.
Members of WSO haven't been very optimistic about these prop firms. After being here for two years and deciding to take the CFA my motivation to continue to trade has died. Do people make money at these firms? YES! There are traders that make 100k on a really good day but theyre not going to be on WSO to talk about it. But are there a lot of these traders at the firm? No, just a handful. On average a normal me and you make a couple of hundred dollars up to 2k-3k on good days. Yes there are bad days but its always limited. Even if they are limited i just dont want to handle the PnL swings anymore i just wanna leave and do something a little more stable.
Now that im trying to exit trading and is having a lot of trouble looking for opportunities in finance. I think its mainly because skills sets as a trader is not quite transferable. I've applied to a lot of financial analyst position but have hear back from absolutely none of them. Im not from a targeted school, would that be why? I have been so discouraged from my job search that i am considering admin and assistant type positions. Would risk analyst and equity sales be a better exit opportunity for me? What other areas in finance can i also consider?
I have my undergrad degrees in Math and Economics as a double major.
I knew a couple of guys who wokred @ Getco, annual comp was mid 6 figures. Both have now left and are running/starting their own shops.
^ marcellus As for capital raising, from our conversations over drinks, I'm led to believe that fundraising is a bit harder when you don't have Getco's massive infrastructure advantage that Getco has.
A top tier MBA may be your best bet.
Trading has basically zero exit opps unless you are also a software engineer.
i believe the main exit op if you do well at a top prop shop is retirement
Anyone know what a "trader" at one of these market making shops does, since I'm guessing almost everything is algorithmic and automated? Especially at shops where they have separate roles for "trader" and "quant developer/programmer", so the trader can't be the one that builds the quant models.
Exit opps for market making and arb in commodities/currencies (Originally Posted: 06/25/2013)
A friend recently joined a top prop shop for a desk that does market making and arb in spot and futures for commodities and currencies. Will he be able to acquire any meaningful skillset that can be parlayed over to something more interesting, at say hedge funds or bulge bracket banks?
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