Engineers in Wall ST
My dear monkeys ,
I've been lurking around this forum for a while now, to be honest , I became a huge fan of this site , the articles, the success stories and much love to the trolls. I am currently an Engineering student at a CUNY school in NYC , and I started falling in love with finance since I'm pretty okay in math , physics and computer science . What caught my attention is the fact that I was sitting in a computer lab that contained Microsoft Visual Studio C++ and I started looking at what's written on the board and it seemed like the previous class was accounting . Direction written on the board was something like "Bulid a program that does a prediction of stocks, and etc " . I was highly interested since I'm pretty good at C++ and compile constant engineering and mathematical solving programs , I got bored of doing the constant engineering and mathematical problems so I started to sneak in that accounting class to see what they're talking about. A lot of the termonology made no sense to me but I god damn know that I would nail some sick algorithims if I was presented with the problem , I am a Mechanical engineering major and I use nothing but integration, derivatives, and first order , second order and homogenous differential equations .
I would like to know if there's any internships I could maybe land, I pretty much set my mind to go get my MBA at Baruch college , I speak pretty well, dress well, and pretty loved rom alll around, certainly that does not mean I dont come equipped with 2 nuts and a shaft and I damn well shined in the last 3 making a living jobs , currently a manager at my present .
I started looking at Goldman Sachs technology career database, there's a lot of positions that I can barely pronounce the names of, but the requirements keep saying must have C++ experience, Java script , a BA in computer science and ish , salaries I looked up looking like a 100k a year and stuff .
I have a job proposal at the department of building in NYC , working with issuing C of O which is the certificate of occupancy to confirm the proper city regulation of a building getting up and running, it starts at 45k a year and that's just too low to take care of my family, my older brother just got into med school and got a while before he starts making any real money. I have a distant cousin who is an investment banker at Wachovia Wells Fargo , he makes a shit load of money, I asked him for refferrals and he has NO idea what I'm talking about, I don't wanna bother him with it, maybe I can when I know what I'm asking to look for .
Any tips about engineers and the corporate world would be awesome!
CHEERS!
I hate to do this to you, but...
tl;dr
Please post a few questions instead.
Alright, let me futher know,
What do engineering majors in fortune 500 companies do for you finance guys? I heard something about them working in Back offices with set salaries .
In many ways, engineers are an excellent fit for trading, particularly in the moderately but not insanely quanty parts. (EG: fixed income and equity derivatives. Think corporate bonds, CDS, rates swaptions and other vol products, VIX futures/options, and stock options.)
Baruch is a great school and they have a good MFE program. But don't get an MBA there. The MFE is cheaper and gives you a much better segue into trading. Other good MFE programs include:
-Chicago -Cornell -Columbia -NYU -MIT -Princeton -UC Berkeley -Stanford -CMU's MSCF program.
I know it sounds crazy, but if you have an 800 or 790 GRE.Q, which you probably will get if you're an engineer (10% of test-takers get it), you don't have a criminal record, and you've taken the traditional engineering math sequence of Calc I-III, DifffyQs, Linear Algebra, and Calculus-based probability, there's an 80% chance you'll get into one of the above listed programs if you apply everywhere. By some measures, Princeton and maybe MIT have the best placement rates and lowest acceptance rates, but there are people smarter than the average Princetonian or MITer at all of these schools, and many of them will have much better financial careers than the average Princetonian.
An MFE still leaves you room to get one of the later MBAs, but it does kinda rule out Stanford and Harvard, who only take younger applicants. Still, IMHO, Berkeley's or Baruch's MFE program is a much better way in for the typical engineer than Baruch's MBA program. If you're as smart as I think you are (given that you made it out of undergrad with an engineering degree), you need to aim a bit higher than an MBA from a (perfectly good) state school.
For some odd reason, graduate schools lower the bar a little. They also LOVE engineers, when the discipline is reasonable preparation for the graduate degree (most quant-heavy degrees, including econ, besides math and physics). I still haven't figured out why for either of those two observations. But the point is that if you go to Baruch's MBA program, it may be viewed as a step down. I know engineers are trained to be humble. I was, too. And I was shocked when I got into UChicago's MFin program two years ago with a 3.5 GPA from a state school. But even the really good MFE schools largely go off of a formula, which is contingent upon (1, primarily) GRE scores, (2) Coursework (3) undergrad GPA (4) work experience. So I think Chicago, Cornell, NYU, Columbia, and Berkeley are clear targets for you if your GPA starts with 3, maybe even a very high two. Just get an 800 on the GRE.
No accounting class will have written on the wall, in C++, "Bulid a program that does a prediction of stocks, and etc "
There are shitload of engineers in finance, especially in trading. Don't think you are so special because you think you understand C++ or homogeneous differential equations(laugh).
Engineers on Wall Street (Originally Posted: 06/12/2010)
Throughout high school I was always good at science and math, so when it came time for college my parents and guidance counselor suggested I look into engineering. I enjoyed the first two semesters, but the summer after my freshman year I suddenly got really involved in finance -- not that I was never involved. Really ever since I was a child I would love to follow the market (probably would not find a 12 year old that loved to watch CNBC or listen to Bloomberg Radio). I guess I just never considered it as a career until this summer, where now I am interning at an IB, unfortunately I'm stuck doing IT. Now that I've seen the bankers and the IT people I know which side I want to be on, but I fear my engineering background and current IT experience may have me trapped on the side I don't want to be on.
Does anyone have a similar experience or any tips?
Stop taking our jobs man, stick to your own damn field.
I was in a similar situation, I almost switched programs after my first year. I also had engineering internships after second and third year. I ended up doing a masters in London and used the fact that I was going into a finance/econ program to get an SA spot after I finished my undergrad.
I'd also try to contact program specific alums who are on the street. They are probably not used to getting cold emails from students and so they may be more willing to help.
How does financial engineer sound to you? Maybe that would get you closer to the business line. Source: http://www.quantnet.com
You got options, you can either switch majors to a more business related field or you can finish up your engineering degree and with a high GPA you might be able to squeeze in at a bank.
Even if you don't there's always the option of getting an MBA.
IB's are really looking for Engineers. Especially groups like Energy love people who actually understand oil&gas as well as power. Network a little bit and with a good GPA a sport is almost certainly guaranteed for you if you went to a good school.
My dad was an MD until the mid-90s,got his engineering degree from a military academy. Dont know how the IT affects you.
Banks like engineers, since studying in the major requires the same type of discipline to succeed as an analyst.
You don't really need to change your major as long as you can keep your GPA above a 3.6.
Being an engineering major will help you to land places like tech or energy much easier compared to a normal biz major people.
As others have said, Wall Street likes engineers since they are "quantitative"--if you are a EE it might be even better since you'll have extensive programming experience (compared to MechEs, CivilE or ChemEs).
My advice is to keep up the GPA, use your electives to take a few financial classes (basic accounting, econ or finance) and brush up on C++/Excel. Make sure you have a solid story on "why Wall Street"--something that doesn't boil down to "I want $$$". Make sure to demonstrate said interest in Finance by becoming involve in a club or two.
Engineers at Wall Street (Originally Posted: 07/07/2011)
Hi, I'm a mechanical engineer with a strong mathematical background and am looking into entering the world of finance. I am planning on study for the CFA...are there any positions I can apply for before getting the CFA?
To the best of my knowledge, CFA is not a prerequisite for anything.
Why dont you engineer a new wall street? One with a big wall down the middle, something similar to what was in Berlin
You can apply to anything without a CFA, in fact its not really useful, just apply to jobs man...
do quant trading broski
Quality of engineers switching to finance? (Originally Posted: 05/31/2012)
If I'm a top student in engineering, chances are, I'll end up at a top engineering firm.
However, the engineer students who sucked (i.e. were not among the best) jump in finance since they cain't make it in their field.
Is this assumption correct?
I don't think so. I had a 4.0 in my propulsion concentration, along with a couple design competition first place awards. I found finance way more interesting and more aligned to my personal strengths.
So I don't think its as clear cut as what you posted.
Its Crap assumption. I know, I am good in Geophysics technically very strong ( couple of publiations with some book chapters)..But business side of industry is lucrative and I am sure if i switch to it..I will do good in it..
PS: I am not praising my self, just giving u some points that i dont suck if i switch to finance
^Agree with the PS above. I think the engineers that switch to the business side or finance see the other opportunities/incentive with their degree. They also have different personalities than most typical engineers.
Wrong assumption.
Engineering graduates who go into finance generally have good GPAs.
Whether that makes them good engineers or not remains to be seen.
Not my impression at all. The engineers I have met in finance had the stats/skills to get a top SWE job at Google, Apple, MSFT, etc...a lot actually turned down offers with those companies.
I guess the only common thread is that a lot of these guys did engineering because it was a well-paying choice, then realized engineers make peanuts next to financiers. Either that, or they realized engineering wasn't all that exciting/challenging, and then decided "If I am going to be bored, might as well be for more money".
Even if your assumption is correct, what does it matter?
Erm, I'm really not sure what kind of answer you were expecting on a finance site... this is not a good way to get the truth; whatever it may be.
Yea, I find it suspect.
I know some people in engineering who are killing it and they're all going to top engineering firms. However, eng. studs with say a 3.3 gpa keep asking me questions about how to break in Finance.
Now I'm not saying that this cain't happen but overall, I still think that the majority of engineers who switch to finance are those who couldn't be the best in their field.
Erm, I'm really not sure what kind of answer you were expecting on a finance site... this is not a good way to get the truth; whatever it may be.
PetEng is right about something...GPA is not the determing factor of a good engineer or not.
I had one professor only give oral finals. You pick a topic that is covered in the scope of the class, and you discuss it with him. If you can reasonably discuss it with adequate knowledge you keep your grade that your received, if you can't, he will drop you a grade, if you dazzled him with insights and displayed true knowledge you got a boost to your grade. A lot of 3.5+ people got C's and D's because of grade inflation, cheating, back-files, etc.
I think the engineers who switch to finance are the smart ones who realize they could easily be making many times more money in finance than engineering....in fact I'm surprised there aren't more engineers in finance. Even the dumbest engineers I've met could handle any of the work that bankers do
Engineers are like Superman. They can do whatever they want with their degree. Found out that finance wasn't for them, bam, back into an engineering job with a decent salary and half the hours.
Just last month a guy on one of the ER teams switched back into his engineering field (oil service, been out for the last 10 years). Spoke with him a week ago and he was on the fast track to C-level. If I had been smart enough, I would have gotten a degree in engineering and not finance/math.
Short answer, no.
This. An engineer can always switch to finance, but bankers can't switch to engineering unless they already had a science background. I should've studied a hard science...did not need four years of finance education to do the work I'm doing now
Engineers In Banking (Originally Posted: 03/20/2007)
I'm an electrical engineering sophomore at a target state school with a 3.83 GPA. Investment banking has become more of an interest to me in terms of a future career choice but I was wondering if engineers can actually work as analysts, etc. as opposed to being placed on an IT team. Also, does anyone have figures as to how much those in IT at major banks actually make? Thanks
~30% of GS TMT are engineers of some sort
about the same number for GS FIG
same for my group
TMT makes sense, but why would FIG be that high? Also, many prestigious engineering schools I would not consider target schools. For these groups, does being target school still trump being an engineer?
? FIG actually makes more sense than TMT. FIG is MUCH more quantitative
The only reason some prestigious engineering schools aren't targets is due to the fact that not many students coming out of these schools are interested in banking. If a kid at one of these schools (MIT and Cal Tech especially) is interested in M&A, he will generally not have too much trouble getting an interview, and, assuming the kid is pretty well-adjusted and all, should be able to get a job. Coursework at these schools is obviously much harder than your average target.
Well, that's what I wasn't sure about. If it was the quant/analytical aspect or the "engineers should understand the details of tech companies" view. Thanks for clearing it up.
I never really like to get into minimum GPAs all that much, as some kid will often come out of the blue and say that a friend of his did MS M&A or GS TMT and got like a 2.3 or something. But VERY generally, I would say a minimum of 3.2+ w/ a degree of financial knowledge and perhaps a 3.4+ w/ no background in finance whatsoever. These numbers are both very rough, however, and furthermore are somewhat arbitrary, as they're just what I would personally consider a cutoff if looking at resumes.
Someone will chime in and say that his friend had a 1.6 at Wright State University and managed to get into GS TMT.
wow, guess there is hope afterall
No summers at GS TMT had below a 3.7 last yr. Avg was ridiculous ~ like 3.9. Wharton's past 2 Valedictorians have gone to GS TMT. They don't mess around.
No wonder all analysts end up at top PE shops. They're smart as shit to begin with. Getting a 3.9 at top school is not easy by any means. I didn't know Wharton was high school and you had valedictorians.
Westcoast - Is average GPA at UBS LA very high as well? I assume so given how damn competitive it is to get in there.
No wonder all analysts end up at top PE shops. They're smart as shit to begin with. Getting a 3.9 at top school is not easy by any means. I didn't know Wharton was high school and you had valedictorians.
Westcoast - Is average GPA at UBS LA very high as well? I assume so given how damn competitive it is to get in there.
Very similar for MS M&A
plenty of engineering majors go into banking. from my experiences they are actually favored against the business majors as long as they have a basic understanding for finance... which is not hard for engineers to learn at all.
I agree. Engineering is hard work at the top schools, and if you have a good GPA banks will see that as a signal for both your intelligence and work ethic.
You don't need to be a guru in finance or acctg, just have a basic understanding as sshiah said.
Grades wise very similar at UBS LA for my summer, my buddy at GS TMT had a 3.7 and said he was close to the bottom of his class -- one guy had a 3.3 through SEO
Westcoasting, do you know where the 2nd years placed for MS M&A last yr?
I know one that went to KKR. Not particularly familiar with everyone in that group, just the ones that I know through acquaintances.
It's a tiny group - like 5 people.
Im actually an engineer and I got a summer analyst position from GS with a 3.6. Im not exactly sure what a cutoff would be but if there was one class you should take before applying anywhere, that would be ACCOUNTING. Other than that, you can leverage the fact that you have good analytical skills with a passion for applying it to financial services and work your way from there. You should be fine.
Ya, when I was a summer no one had below 3.7 or 3.6 w. engineering and they don't do any SEO type stuff at UBS LA.
Top kid at Ivey, one of the top kids at Michigan, couple Jerome Fisher Wharton / Eng guys w. STanford, Berkeley, Pomona etc.
I'd say average was around 3.8 - 3.9ish tho. That office seemed willing to throw out GPA for great fit tho. All the guys in the class loved to go out.
I think this would be common at most top groups across the street including general MS and GS.
why pomona?
just wondering...what is SEO?
Pomona College is a top school... maybe not for recruiting, but academically
exactly. it's close to LA and you are sure to get a top guy if you are UBS LA. Two of the pomona / claremont guys went to KKR in the past 4 years.
Engineers - What opportunities are there? (Originally Posted: 05/18/2012)
Hmm, I am new to this board but I was wondering what are the opportunities for engineers to enter management consulting. I was looking into some of the big companies like BCG etc. Problem is my gpa is a bit low compared to some of the other ppl who might be applying. Finished junior year with a 3.55 in EE (3.7 major gpa
First of all, you're all over the place and need to calm the fuck down.
Second, here are some punctuation marks: ' , . ? ¶ Please use them so that we can figure out what the fuck you're trying to say.
Great.
To answer your question: yes, your GPA is probably on the low end, depending on where you go to school. Networking wouldn't hurt. You said your club has decent placement into top-tier firms- why don't you ask alumni of your club who are currently at MBB what their GPAs were so that you can get a feel for what the firms are looking for. You may have a decent shot at some tier-2 firms.
There are a few people at my MBB office who interned at engineering and/or software firms. As long as you can tell a coherent story about what you learned during your internship you should be fine.
What are you doing this summer?
^^acronym is right. clearly an engineer hahaha BUT...
Generally speaking, most people would agree that 3.5 is kind of the cutoff in terms of still getting looks (resume not instantly thrown in the trash), so you're by no means out of the running. And not to mention, EE is among the most rigorous majors IMO and that alone speaks for itself. If that's the only thing keeping you from giving it a shot then you need to put that aside, build up some confidence, and just go for it.
Furthermore, if you think you might be interested in consulting and you already have something else on the back burner in engineering then you really have nothing to lose by just going for it. You're coming from a target, GPA's sufficient, and your major differentiates you from most of the competition; I'm not sure what's causing all this doubt.
I guess if you're zoning in on management consulting specifically you could have a set-back from not having taken many relevant courses. i was thinking something like Accenture before i re-read your post. On the other hand, If it's not FT then they don't expect kids to know shit anyways so it's minor. GL
Sorry for the unorganized post. But thanks for the responses.
I am interning at the big engineering firm I mentioned in my earlier post this summer. Dealing with EE and CS sort of work. The only reason I am asking is that I actually don't know anyone from a hardcore engineering background going into consulting. My school is ranked top 10 in engineering ,so engineers here often actually want to go into the field. The BBA is top 5 so those wanting to go into consulting etc usually just start of in the biz school.
I will give it a go. My main thing is I am very unsure if I can bank on consulting, or if I should I just go to grad school for EE. Also I really dont want to go to grad school, so if I knew if consulting is a viable option I would not even prepare for grad school (GRE etc).
It's definitely not a good idea to "bank" on landing a consulting gig. The good news is that you have more than enough time to prepare applications for both consulting firms and grad school. Just start studying for the GRE/working on your personal statement/gathering recs/practicing for cases/networking now, and not in the Fall.
Speaking of networking, you should get in touch with alumni of that consulting club who are currently in the industry.
i don't know of any targets that have a BBA outside of say Michigan. I hope you're not attending Michigan though (unless it's a double major program with Ross). As others have said, that's a lowish GPA and might hold you back for the top firms. Additionally Case Prep for the interviews is a bit harder than GRE prep (which has remedial math). Consider that before you jump in with two feet. Consulting firms care about how you present yourself and how you think. As such, you can be any major and they would still consider you.
Also if you are from Michigan, is this club you talk of BOND or Nexecon?
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