Question about Business School Application - R2 with a bad gmat, but decent experience/gpa

All,

Because of some circumstances I won't get into, I wasn't able to properly study for the GMAT that people should, and instead had to cram the effort into a concentrated 10 days. I tested okay (~700) during practice exams, but I completely bombed the gmat (640) and I won't be able to take it for another month (which is after R2). I was nervous and felt ill during the exam, but it's no excuse because I should have done this earlier. I knew going in feeling like shit that I wasn't going to get the greatest score, but I thought I would at least get 680. I really underestimated how easily a CAT exam can get the best of someone vs. a normal paper exam. I'm pretty devastated.

So I think realistically I just nuked my chances at the schools I want to target - Booth, Wharton, Stern, Columbia... But I was wondering if I can get prior applicants/current b-school students thoughts? Is this it - I'm done? I have a decent-ish background (US and international work experience, top BB/elite boutique IB, a 3.6-3.7 GPA at a rigorous undergrad b-school program). I had spoken with some admission consultants and they think I might be able to make a case for the score to not be reflective of my capabilities and point to my work exp and GPA, but should I consider applying for R3 instead?

For Columbia, it's a rolling process, no R1, R2, R3s, so I could try and apply after a month and hope to improve on my score (though the same problem would persist in that they would have already filled up a lot of their slots). But for the others its R2 with a big asterisk in a few days or R3 (with the potential to get a better mark - but no guarantee, but competing for far fewer spots).

Other datapoints - female, minority (but pretty well represented), 5-6 yrs exp.

So thoughts? Suggestions?

 

IB experience. BB/elite boutique. I know finance isn't rocket science, but I consider myself decently smart with good quant skills and I'm a go-to person on writing/qualitative stuff. I've been told I'm good at both on a number of accounts at work, school, etc. But after the exam I feel like a complete idiot.

Due to age and other factors, this year would be the year I have to apply to b-school. I am hesitant for personal reasons (won't get into it here) to apply for R1 next year.

I guess I'm just trying to get an idea of how unlikely it is now. I mean, work exp, rec letters, academic background would point to me having good quant and verbal skills and the GMAT is the outlier, but considering how difficult it is to get into these schools even when you tick all the boxes, I guess I'm just wondering whether or not I should risk R3. Or if good essays and everything else would event amount to anything...

 

This is a really tough one. I don't know what to say other than it is a crap shoot. I can say that the average matriculating age at Booth is 28, so you aren't necessarily on the old side. I'd hate to see you matriculate at a school that isn't representative of your abilities because you weren't able to wait just one more year.

What about this idea: Apply R2, but still re-take the GMAT. Schools generally allow you to submit follow-up information if your candidacy changes meaningfully. If you took the exam and scored a 700+, you could get the new info to the school before interview decisions are released.

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Short: Targeting top 8 and I guess one or two in Top 10-15? Besides the core 8 schools it's really hard to tell where each fall.

CompBanker: How long does it typically take for schools to make interview decisions for R2? I need to wait one month before I can take another exam. I know Columbia takes 6 weeks, and I think I recall that they say that if you wanted to re-take your GMAT but submit in advance, they would simply just wait on you to get them the new score before considering.

Also I'm already 28...

 

Interview decision release dates depend on the school. My data may be a little dated, but Booth does theirs all at once. Harvard has two waves. Stanford is rolling. Wharton has a specified period and does small waves during the period. A little research on GMATClub should be sufficient to give you an idea if the strategy will work. I suspect it will.

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I think most too 8 schools will look and say why didn't you retake it you only took it once can't slide in that easy and will ding you since unlike a weak GPA they can't say you had extenuating circumstances which affected you at that point of life. Columbia after the new year is also a bit of a black hole from what I've heard. If anything I'd say blast round two now and maybe add in a few of the top 17 schools and prepare ... Its a possibility but I'd most likely pin you on getting reapplicant status for m7 and maybe admits at top 17 if you do apply now with better chances at round 2 than 3

Its all a black box so no one ever really knows what exactly the chances are

 

CompBanker: I'm just trying to look around now to see if other people have asked similar questions (i.e. submitting new scores after the mba application) and it looks like it happens. But some schools like Booth might consider it, and others like Wharton may or may not. Also it looks like it all depends on when they get the new exam scores. In my case, I hope I can do another exam in 4-5 weeks.

Short: I only took it once and I took it fairly recently which is why I can't take another to make up for it before the deadline. I originally planned to take my first exam in November (so that I would have enough time to do a second exam), but wasn't able to. Stupid, I know.

By 'numbers driven' I assume you mean GMAT-focused? Well I guess for Columbia, I could submit a month later (and hopefully with a better gmat score) since it's rolling, but I'm sure a lot of people will submit Jan 6 in time to qualify for the merit consideration so the same 'Round 3' type problem exists. But if I submit to Columbia now when there's high volume of applicants, I probably don't do myself any favors by having a red flag like this. Wharton - I don't think I have a super unique background. Investment banking and some prior finance exp. I have international experience (US and overseas), but not sure if that's really all that distinct. I have somewhat blue chip names on my resume, but considering these schools have TPG, KKR, Blackstone type applicants, I have doubt on whether that's enough.

For the others - it sounds like you guys are just saying to bite the bullet and apply R2, submit a supplementary essay to discuss the GMAT and make a point that I plan to take the exam again and then submit the scores in a month's time. Though Short - I won't be able to submit R2 applications for non-top 8 schools other than Stern and Darden, since I won't be able to get the recommenders to write it on time.

 

I guess I can also look at European schools that may have a different timeline, like INSEAD.

Short, have you applied or attended b-school?

I'm just wondering how big a component is the GMAT. I guess it's the one thing that is consistent across the board that makes for an easy ding. But I guess I'm just wondering if it plays a bigger role than say work exp or gpa which is a more continuous demonstration of an applicant's aptitude vs a one-shot. But then I guess I'm just feeling really bitter.

 

I would caution looking at European schools unless you want to work in Europe--I think an often overlooked fact is that much (but not all) of B-school hiring is local--and usually involves leveraging utilizing the B-school network--which is often local.

INSEAD will ave a pretty weak network in the US (visas are tough) if this is where you want to work.

For instance, I had a friend who went to Stanford, and he said the network was awesome in California, Good in NYC, and weak in Europe. I don't think it's a coincidence that Wharton, Stern and Columbia are big finance schools, given their proximity to Wall Street.

 
Best Response

Vz-

You sound like you have an impressive work background, and if there is one leg of the GMAT/GPA/Work experience stool that can most easily be fixed, it's the GMAT. OK, timing is tight--I understand this.

Here are a couple of scenarios:

1) - Apply, and re-take the GMAT. Speak to someone in admissions to let them know you are on the case (and as you say, "make a case for the score to not be reflective of my capabilities and point to my work exp and GPA") and will be re-submitting the GMAT ASAP. Might get you another look, or in worst case, not get application thrown out immediately. Given your strong background, I'd put my weight behind this. If they like you but you don't make R1, can they roll you into R2? My thought? Go for it. Fortune favors the bold.

2) Wait until R2, and you either have a better GMAT (in which case, apply) or you don't--and then you have a tougher call to make to convince the Admissions Committee about getting a higher score, etc.

3) Apply R3. I've heard R3 is brutal, brutal, brutal--very few slots, and lots of competition--I've heard one has to be a rocket scientist/Navy SEAL/Nobel laureate all rolled into one--and it's still hard.

4) Apply for an EMBA program. They really care about experience, and don't (really) care about GMATs. Your age is within the EMBA age bracket, and you seem to like your job (and be good at it).

5) You can apply next year, but it seems like a waste of an opportunity in point 1--but I am also an optimist.

A few other (random) thoughts:

A) Most B-schools are struggling to boost female enrollment beyond 40%--and (when I last heard) most are around 38% and not successful at getting much higher than those numbers. You sound like you have a very strong (and ideal) background for any MBA candidate (male or female) so the fact that you are a female & minority candidate can only help--and may give you a second look on the GMAT issue.

B) For what it's worth, I did the Columbia EMBA program and applied in 2008, so caveat that I applied to different program at a different time. I also didn't work in admissions, so I can't speak from direct experience.

C) When I applied in 2008, Columbia was known for being afraid of being a safety school for HBS/Wharton/Stanford, and they were very focused on you being clear that you wanted to go to Columbia and nowhere else.

 

Thanks for your reply. I might not have made myself clear (or because you did the EMBA, which may have different deadlines), R2 is coming up, and I most likely won't apply for R1 (next year). So I guess your #1 point would be applicable for my applying in R2 which is a few days away.

Well, female but not an URM, so... I guess I just have female going for me. I wonder why there aren't more in business. I don't think it really makes much difference though.

I won't be quite suitable for the EMBA so that one's not an option. And for your comment on European schools - you're quite right. I am more US/North America centric, but I guess I was just thinking of it as an alternative given the different application deadlines which could give me more opportunities to fix the GMAT.

As for Columbia - I would be over the moon if I got in. I am pretty excited about the school, and the others I mentioned, and don't really consider any of them safeties. I'm not done with all the essays (one school's essays remain) but I think I did a good job on the completed ones, and I think my rec letters should be good. And I think I have a nice profile (albeit a bit cliched in finance). Which is why I'm so frustrated with my crappy gmat score.

I think, given R3s seem to be pretty tough and I don't have a special/unorthodox enough profile, I would just have to risk R2 with an essay to highlight how the rest of my application is a better reflection of my capabilities than the GMAT, and that I plan on taking it again... and book it as soon as I can/and am better prepared for. I guess the only thing now is determining logistics - what the policy is for each school. I think they generally just consider the gmat that's submitted, but I need to figure out how long it takes each of them to process an applicant. And I think some schools make a note to hold off on the review.

My worst fear now is I don't improve on the gmat or God forbid do worse. But I know I wasn't the most prepared, so I think if I give myself a solid month, I can bring it up.

 

OK-thanks for the clarification!

To amend my advice above, just replace my R1 recommendation with R2--apply and let them know you are re-taking the GMAT. Schools will likely have lots of printed policies about you can/can't re-submit gmat scores after application--I'd ignore them and re-submit regardless (Ideally get the name of someone on the AdCom if you can....or befriend a secretary!). To echo some other posts, it's a black box, and you never known how AdComs will react--but I think you can never go wrong by showing initiative and persistence.

Everyone bombs the GMAT the first time--don't worry. I think it's one of these rites of passage everyone has to go through. Two really smart friends of mine (one went to HBS, the other Stanford) both bombed it the first time--and got in the swing in subsequent tries.

For what it's worth (and I'm 5+ years out of date) Manhattan GMAT was the best by far--combining the best (and none of the worst) of Princeton Review and Kaplan. It also focused (or was) on people who want high scores. The Kaplan/Princeton Review book you can buy at Barnes & Noble is focused on the mass market, not just high-scorers.

Two other things--I found that the key to the GMAT was pacing (my friend said he tried to do each question in half the time allotted--tough but a good idea in principle). The other key was pattern recognition--there are only a dozen (or so) questions on the GMAT for each type, but they are very well disguised by the way they are written. I found the best way to get pattern recognition (and therefore being able to get through the questions quicker) is getting that through mass repetition of GMAT questions. I did this by lots of drilling through the original GMAT questions in the book & online tests. I think it's not productive to drill off anything else, as other prep questions aren't GMAT questions--they are people writing questions to look like GMAT questions--which eliminates the whole advantage of getting pattern recognition--you are studying the wrong pattern.

Good luck!

 

Just an update, I called up some of the schools (Booth was closed today). Generally speaking, most are receptive to getting new scores. If you can get it within a month or so, you can probably get in the new info on time. Apparently this kind of thing happens.

Wharton provided a less positive response - that info is considered as is and the application gets processed quite quickly (so there's no guarantee that they'll be able to factor in the new score on time). The only case for it is - if let's say one gets an interview (even with the low score) and gets waitlisted. Then your new info that comes in (assuming they didn't get it before the interview) will be added to the profile. And waitlisted applicants from past R1, and R2 (with revised info) would be compared vs. R3 candidates.

So it's a bit of a gamble in all cases. There is no guarantee I will get a better mark 4-5 wks from now (although I will study my ass off and be better prepared). In a bad scenario, I could have not much better mark to show the schools. But in the positive case scenario where I get a better mark, it looks like applying to R2 and submitting the score after the fact looks like the better option. Particularly for Columbia, which is rolling and has probably filled up a lot of spots.

The alternative is having 2 months (and therefore 2 tries) to get the GMAT right, and applying in the more competitive R3 in March. Two tries provides a greater probability of success, but it would mean going after very few spots.

Thoughts?

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