Questions for the guys already in IB, PE, or HFs

Did you ever think for awhile, or even just a moment, that you would not be able to break in at any points before you began your careers?

Did you aim to become what you are today? Or did you have other goals but somehow ended up in IB. Or did you not have any plans whatsoever and just ended up getting dealt the cards you have today?

Are you happy with where you are? Would you have rather been in politics, or law or science - finding cures, putting criminals behind bars, or solving major world issues? Do you see meaning in your life from work when you step in, or do you find meaning in other aspects of your life instead?

The questions might seem a bit odd and abstract but they've been on my mind for awhile. Hopefully your answers to these questions will help find the answers to the questions I've been asking myself.

Thanks.

 
Best Response

Stumbled into IB after initially starting along the path to be a tax lawyer, followed taking on the path to be an M&A/ECM lawyer. All up, around 9 years being a lawyer before I flipped to being banker.

Enjoy it thoroughly now because I get to dive deep into many different rabbit holes (industries, business models, deal types), particularly as I've avoided industry-focus specialisation. I can't see any other job that would have given me the international mobility nor the diversity of learning experiences.

My meaning in life is largely derived from the interest I take in my work and the interesting and diverse contribution of experiences it makes to the long term narrative of the life of myself and my wife (also a banker), along with continuous education I do on the side. I'm lucky enough to work for a bank that is happy to support and sometimes pay for my education (CFA and M.Fin in the past, hopefully starting an M.Sci next year).

IB has allowed me to live in two major cities/countries outside of my home country, with the prospect of it sponsoring more global mobility in the future.

Also, the money is good.

There is no long term solution to humanity's problems. Humanity is the problem. IB lets me take a seat in a really comfortable padded deck chair as the ship of humanity sinks.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

So you continue your education even while you're working full time in IB? It says your VP in risk management. To be honest I was going to open another thread asking if there was different sectors of IB. I'll save that for another day. So anyway, I'm not sure what risk management is to be honest (I assume it's obviously some type of IB pathway) but aren't the hours in IB supposed to be brutal? I assume that they lessen down at VP level then? Do you find you have much time to yourself/have had much time over your career for yourself? Is the "no social life for IB" statement true?

Although, I don't agree with what you said about humanity's problems >Rant> (because from an economic standpoint are the standards of living/GDP of every country not going up every year? Most in those with the lowest GDP? Therefore is humanity not improving in at least 1 way every year? Furthermore, finding cures, and solving world conflicts is nothing to scoff at. I believe every job is equally important (to a degree) to the contribution of a functioning society. What would we be without farmers? Or garbage men? Humanitarians? Doctors? Or, perhaps most importantly, a president and politicians?). But I assume you're not being so literal when you say that. Still though, I can never find myself appreciating the pessimists point of view.

But I applaud you on continuing your education even though you don't need it (I assume you don't need it? Unless your planning to switch into another industry or something like that?). Some people find university a chore it seems, but I feel like a better, more whole person after learning most of the things I do there.

But thank you for your answer. It was exactly the type I was looking for. If you'd please, answer my follow up questions (^) as well.

...Well actually while we're talking (sort of), what are the different types of IB? Risk management, mergers and acquisitions... Is there a link on the site I can use to find the answer this question?

 
SSits:

Stumbled into IB after initially starting along the path to be a tax lawyer, followed taking on the path to be an M&A/ECM lawyer. All up, around 9 years being a lawyer before I flipped to being banker.

Enjoy it thoroughly now because I get to dive deep into many different rabbit holes (industries, business models, deal types), particularly as I've avoided industry-focus specialisation. I can't see any other job that would have given me the international mobility nor the diversity of learning experiences.

My meaning in life is largely derived from the interest I take in my work and the interesting and diverse contribution of experiences it makes to the long term narrative of the life of myself and my wife (also a banker), along with continuous education I do on the side. I'm lucky enough to work for a bank that is happy to support and sometimes pay for my education (CFA and M.Fin in the past, hopefully starting an M.Sci next year).

IB has allowed me to live in two major cities/countries outside of my home country, with the prospect of it sponsoring more global mobility in the future.

Also, the money is good.

There is no long term solution to humanity's problems. Humanity is the problem. IB lets me take a seat in a really comfortable padded deck chair as the ship of humanity sinks.

thats fucking sad

 

@"Dingdong08" - thanks for the SB. I'm always happy to talk ad nasuem about my views on the world or my life story and giving me an SB only encourages me to be more narcissistic.

@"newbie112" - So many questions. I'll cover some.

newbie112:
So you continue your education even while you're working full time in IB...

I moved into IB laterally at the upper level of associate, quickly moved to VP. So I skipped the IB grunt work. I also started IB in a front office, buy-side, non-advisory role, which meant I skipped all the IB grunt work years (although I got my grunt scars from Big Law grunt work). Recently I moved from front office to middle office in credit analysis. That's still close to the front office revenue generation activity the way my bank operates (what @"kyc133enydc" is generally true, but the story is different under my bank's set up), but - to be very honest - I couldn't make the leap from execution to origination in IB, so front office offered me very limited upward mobility.

newbie112:
Although, I don't agree with what you said about humanity's problems >Rant> (because from an economic standpoint are the standards of living/GDP of every country not going up every year? Most in those with the lowest GDP? Therefore is humanity not improving in at least 1 way every year? Furthermore, finding cures, and solving world conflicts is nothing to scoff at. I believe every job is equally important (to a degree) to the contribution of a functioning society. What would we be without farmers? Or garbage men? Humanitarians? Doctors? Or, perhaps most importantly, a president and politicians?). But I assume you're not being so literal when you say that. Still though, I can never find myself appreciating the pessimists point of view.

My view is that human psychology damns us. If we manage to get off this planet and work out inter-solar system travel, we may have a chance, but I doubt it. The profit motive keeps us too short term and human psychology screws up any system that is notionally longer-sighted (cf failed experiments in socialism/capitalism). I don't scoff/feel scorn at the proletariat and farmers, but do arrogantly think that I have empathy for their plight as I sit on my comfy seat, holding a glass of 12 year of scotch.

Also, people who run tanning salons don't have jobs that are "equally important" to the contribution to a functioning society as the vast majority of workers.

newbie112:
But I applaud you on continuing your education even though you don't need it (I assume you don't need it? Unless your planning to switch into another industry or something like that?)

Just doing it for fun. It's not going to increase my salary or promotion prospects, but will increase my conceit and self-regard.

newbie112:
Well actually while we're talking (sort of), what are the different types of IB? Risk management, mergers and acquisitions... Is there a link on the site I can use to find the answer this question?

There's likely resources somewhere within WSO. I'm not sure if the MO role I've moved to formally qualifies as IB, although 90% of the work I do is supporting IB business and my bank's "risk" division (or at least, my part of it) is very different to/much closer to the business than a typical Wall Street bank's risk department.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

I see...sort of. Some of what you said in your first paragraph I do not understand but I think I get the gist of what you are saying. I want to work in FO and hopefully do well in it since that's all I've read about so far but who knows I might not even break in if I don't continue to work hard in school and for internships now!!! So I'm getting ahead of myself but it's good to think about these things when you're in your down time, at least I think so. Anyway you've given me a ton of information!!!! My questions only ever end up leading to a branch of other questions (as the ppl who know me will tell you haha) and a bunch more have already popped into my head - but I'll give it a rest for tonight. I've got to apply and stuff tomorrow so I should be up early.

Before I go though I'd like to say something. You know, when I was a kid (raised in a middle class family) going into my teens I saw two choices in life. Working hard and becoming a "chump" like everyone else (or so that's how I thought it was to work hard and get a good career) or live the life of one of those laid back, stress free guys who understands the truth - that only the ultra rich people are worth anything in life. I unfortunately chose the latter at first. I learned a lot though, but came out of it half the person I used to be. I used to think all you suits and hard working people were all chumps, living meaningless lives. On top of that I thought you were all rude and arrogant, obnoxious, exploiting and, oddly enough, stupid. Ok long story short - The opposite was true! I'm learning that everyday people (not drug dealers, or people along those lines) are actually really nice and, quite often, pretty insightful if you take the chance to observe and listen! There are some pricks but only 1 for every 8 or 9 kind, helpful people. Not to say that drug dealers are evil, some of them were very kind hearted individuals, but with no work ethic, and the number of people who are nice/not exploitative drops to every 3 or 4 out of 10 that you'll meet.

Sorry for the rant. I just wanted to say that you guys are alright! And so are all the other peeps I'm meeting in my life. Much better than what and who I used to think was right. A lot easier to talk to too.

 

I've interacted with a few drug dealers in my time. In each case, they were solid, reliable guys who delivered what they promised. I liked them.

Almost all of my friends are completely outside the IB industry. That was part of my problem - you usually need to cultivate a friendship network (or at least frequent contact network) within IB and clients to originate. I like to keep my out of office hours in truly out of office activities and was never prepared to give myself over to the origination lifestyle. I'd like to pretend this was entirely about staying true to myself, integrity etc, but really I was just pretty bad at sales/self-marketing.

I'm happy not to have the skill, as I think it would mean I'd be changing my personality in a way I don't like. I'm still a little conflicted about whether this is a personal positive or negative.

However, objectively speaking, I couldn't cut it as an origination I-banker.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

Misanthropic much?

Empathy, hah.. you (we) are definitely part of the proletariat. So long as we require a paycheque to live, we are in shackles -- glass of Laphroaig or not.

I don't understand why you don't go to industry. If you can't source on the sell-side, you're expendable. And, I would say, those who are given to introspection are usually not good salesmen (personal opinion, and one I hope I'm wrong about).

 
warmpi:
I would say, those who are given to introspection are usually not good salesmen (personal opinion, and one I hope I'm wrong about).

Based on my experience and the good salesmen I've known, I agree.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

loool man!!! I haven't read your post but it looks like it's a good one!!!

ok let me read...

1st paragraph: I've felt what you're describing in many situations I've purposely put myself in the past (This might sound a little naive or childish, but if you have an iPhone, download an online Risk game where you play with strangers. You end up becoming friends with them but at the same time are trying to destroy them any way you can. It's a little childish but seriously, if you have an hour try it and you'll face (comparatively, an elementary style) conflict such as the one you've described. I've learned, or at least I tell myself, that it's just business (of course you're talking about something I may not be properly fathoming right now, I could be waaaay off and probably am).

2nd paragraph: You reinforce your points from paragraph one. I believe I understand what you're saying and all of it sounds valid to me. These are the grey areas in life, which are hard to one-sidedly (i know, that's not a word) fully devote your heart/belief/mind into. Also, I'm confused by how you're using the word originate here. Are you using it to describe skills one is inherently born with and/or goes into IB with? Or "to create or initiate"?

3: thank you for going into detail about this subject but to be honest these are things I'm not sure if I should be thinking about right now (I'd be getting waaay too ahead of myself, thoughts like those often lead to me becoming overconfident and thus my work suffers)

4: That's discouraging. I suppose I have heard stories such as these related to IB though.

5...6...that's sounds very honest. Thank you for sharing once again.

All in all, it's nice to see that you have a heart. One concern I had is that IB are sometimes labelled as heartless/soulless, cold people. I'm glad to see that there is at least one who is not. I hope I end up working (If I successfully break in) with people who share similar mindsets to that of yours in terms of not being able to undermine other people.

 

Origination = finding and bringing in fee-paying deals (IB advisory/underwriting) or investment opportunities (PE, merchant banking or mezz debt). In most cases, the opportunities to originate are based on the banker's relationship with the client (and often the $ in debt capital that banker has arranged fo the client), rather than the quality of your pitch book and strength of your IB's credentials (although your IB's creds can help a lot).

A banker will often spend 2-3 years calling a particular client, "playing around the hoop" before the banker gets a mandate/lands a deal that pays fees.

That means 2-3 years per client of relationship building before you see a pay off.

If you're at university and heading into an IB career, you're a long way away from the origination dilemma and don't have to worry about it. You only need to start being conscious of it around 28 - 29 and can having a crackingly good career up until the age of ~30 (based on execution skill) without being aware of it whatsoever.

Execution = getting the deal done, from structuring through due diligence to selling it and collecting your fee and/or return on capital.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

I see....(thanks again for being so freaking informative!!)

What is a cracklingly good career? does that mean that it's a shaky career or is that a good thing?

When do 3 year + associates usually become VP and onward? Starting at age 30? Is it true or false that getting into management positions is difficult in IB/PE/HFs (or is it like you said, you need to be able to originate to get there - if you can do it, you get promoted, if you can't you don't)? And I'm sorry but I'm tired now so I'll have to ask you this again, did you say you tried out IB (i'm guessing till associate level?) and then switched out after you realized you did not care for originating and realized you had more potential and better pay in risk management (but I assume there would be more money-related benefits to being in your same VP position but in IB, or am I wrong to assume that?) Next question - Is VP not a big deal? I mean doesn't that mean you're a pretty powerful individual in RM and in IB (or FO? I'm sorry if I'm not using these terms correctly, please correct me so I can learn). When I think VP I think right under president, or in this case MD(?) is that not a huge deal? And if so, wtf? I feel a little rude talking to you in such an open (informal? non-polite/non-respecting?) way, lol..

Origination, the way you described it, reminds me of being a kid again thinking about university. I used to look at the older kids reading all those big books and think wow I'm so happy I don't have to worry about all that right now. I'm not sure if I have what it takes but like you said it's good to be conscious of it right now and I'm happy/glad you brought it to my attention.

edit - i'll call it a night. gotta watch me a good old horror movie before bed lol. Looking forward to possibly hearing from you tomorrow! Good day sir!

 
newbie112:

Did you ever think for awhile, or even just a moment, that you would not be able to break in at any points before you began your careers?

no, I guess it's more motivation issue, if you really want something – you usually do everything you can to get it.
newbie112:

Did you aim to become what you are today? Or did you have other goals but somehow ended up in IB. Or did you not have any plans whatsoever and just ended up getting dealt the cards you have today?

can't say had exact detailed plans, but I don't believe in accidents.
newbie112:

Are you happy with where you are? Would you have rather been in politics, or law or science - finding cures, putting criminals behind bars, or solving major world issues? Do you see meaning in your life from work when you step in, or do you find meaning in other aspects of your life instead?

yes. would I prefer something else? possibly, it is more about being good at whatever you do and enjoying it – be it IB or politics, law, science, etc.

there are no major world issues – everybody has to make a choice and the only person you should compare yourself with is you.

 
  1. Who's the guy in your picture?
  2. (i'll reply on each of your paragraphs) - Of course it's motivation but can you honestly say you never doubted yourself? From what I've heard trying to work at a BB (In USA, or Canada) means you need a ~3.7GPA, internships (multiple if possible) and looking at some of these guys posting some of their resumes...well...I'm frightened! I can get the GPA, I think I can get the 2 internships (1 at least) but those other accomplishments? I can't even understand some of the things they've posted in their resume. Is breaking into a BB really as hard as I've read it is? Is it the end of the world if you don't make it right away (is it possible to make in after?)? Are there other good opportunities out there besides the BBs? 2nd paragraph: I see. 3rd: I see. Thanks. I disagree that there are no world issues but I do like your philosophy (the only person you should compare yourself with is you)

But then again, that's coming from someone who's already in IB. I'm still in university, and I want to do well for myself, I want a good career that's challenging and exciting, as well as some money.

 
newbie112:

1. Who's the guy in your picture?

Larry the Liquidator, corporate raider by Danny DeVito in Other people's money (I recommend you to watch it :) )
newbie112:
2. (i'll reply on each of your paragraphs) - Of course it's motivation but can you honestly say you never doubted yourself? From what I've heard trying to work at a BB (In USA, or Canada) means you need a ~3.7GPA, internships (multiple if possible) and looking at some of these guys posting some of their resumes...well...I'm frightened! I can get the GPA, I think I can get the 2 internships (1 at least) but those other accomplishments? I can't even understand some of the things they've posted in their resume. Is breaking into a BB really as hard as I've read it is? Is it the end of the world if you don't make it right away (is it possible to make in after?)? Are there other good opportunities out there besides the BBs?
I often doubt myself and I bet everybody does. in fact, it's not bad – keeps you work on yourself constantly. and from what I read – you're on a right track. I have no moral right to write on working or getting into BB (as I've never worked for them), but the point is different. no one says it will be easy to break in, but no one can say it's impossible either. think of it just as something you will get if you input a certaing amount of time and effort. It's ok if you're frightened with things you don't know. but it's temporary – just keep in mind that it depends on you and you will learn whatever you need. another important thing is that everybody has his own unique way of breaking in whatever he wanted to break in. I met guys who ended up in PE through BB IB with almost no chances at first glance (non-target, different non-finance major and etc.) you just never know, but you'd better do everything you can to prepare. BBs vs other: this forum already has lots of data on this, just have a look.
newbie112:
3rd: I see. Thanks. I disagree that there are no world issues but I do like your philosophy (the only person you should compare yourself with is you)

But then again, that's coming from someone who's already in IB. I'm still in university, and I want to do well for myself, I want a good career that's challenging and exciting, as well as some money.

and you will have a good career, challenging and exciting and some money, just keep doing things that depend on you.
 

Q: Did you ever think for awhile, or even just a moment, that you would not be able to break in at any points before you began your careers?

A: No, always wanted to do something business or finance related. My school helped me in the sense that many students wanted to get into finance and the recruiting was strong. Definitely made things easier on me.

Q: Did you aim to become what you are today? Or did you have other goals but somehow ended up in IB. Or did you not have any plans whatsoever and just ended up getting dealt the cards you have today?

A: Definitely aimed to become what I am today, but now figuring out what exactly is the right path for me 10 years down the line. There are so many out there!

Q: Are you happy with where you are? Would you have rather been in politics, or law or science - finding cures, putting criminals behind bars, or solving major world issues? Do you see meaning in your life from work when you step in, or do you find meaning in other aspects of your life instead?

A: Quite happy where I am right now. As to what SSits alluded to, I'm in the camp that major world issues will continue to be major world issues. I should aim to take care of myself, my current and future family, and my friends who are closest to me. That's where I find meaning in my life. I'll leave the world-saving endeavors to those who are more ambitious and idealist than I as I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take on more "altruistic" goals if I can't take care of those closest to me first. Perhaps one day...

 

Good points about family coming first. "Perhaps one day" are my thoughts exactly - as I'm in no position to help anyone else - just yet.

Thanks for the reply. I have to say, speaking to you folks over the past week/month or however long it's been since I joined has changed me a little. I feel more confident and to be honest a little happier too haha. Definitely more optimistic as well. Hope you don't mind the annoyance but I think I'll stick around at least a little while longer, I can tell that I've got more to learn. Both about the industry, and gaining the right mindset and attitude for it :).

 

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