RE Programs

I've heard a few of you real estate guys mention 1 year masters in RE programs... I'm interested in which do you think are the best - internationally and within the U.S.? LSE, MIT and Columbia seem to be some of the more respectable ones... are there any other solid ones I'm not thinking of?

 

USC for development is excellent out on the west coast, Trojan network is solid, and is a 12 month program. I know Georgetown and Johns Hopkins each have programs, though their duration is something I'm not familiar with.

 

My friend is in the Masters RE program at Cornell - in their Hotel school. Probably the best school of its kind in the country - send lots of kids to REIB, REPE and other RE-related firms like Brookfield. (not saying the other schools are bad, of course).

 

The Cambridge Real Estate Finance Masters is very good, but it's aimed at people without a lot of experience, much like the LSE's programme.

Do you need the school branding? I know a few people from the NYU programme. It's good, but doesn't have the "branding" that the MIT or Columbia programmes have simply because of the school. This makes a difference to headhunters and HR people. Cornell's programme doesn't suffer from this, but it is a bit more niche being hotel focused. I think branding should be a factor in school choice.

The US programmes seem to be more real estate focused rather than finance focused compared with the UK ones I mentioned, but I could be wrong.

I think for someone with a bit of experience (say 5 years) an MBA with a focus on real estate/finance is worth considering, especially at the schools with a strong real estate presence (e.g. Wharton, Columbia, etc...). A lot of people in real estate investing come from those schools. It's a more expensive route though, but should position you well especially if you are targeting US based employers.

As a non-American, another alternative to a two-year US MBA that I'm thinking of is doing a real estate/finance masters at somewhere like LSE/Cambridge/MIT followed by a one year MBA somewhere like INSEAD/Oxford. That might be a bit redundant though for most roles. Just a thought.

 
Relinquis:
Cornell's programme...is a bit more niche being hotel focused.

Stop. Do not pass go. Cornell's real estate program is in no way a niche hotel program unless that is your goal. It is a 2 year program and does not focus on any particular asset class or area of the industry other than by a student's choice. Students select their own concentrations relative to their interests in areas such as development or finance.

Cornell actually has a whole separate 1 year degree for people looking to get into hospitality, and that places a lot of people in real estate roles as well at top RE consulting/advisory firms, but the two are very distinct.

 
av8ter:
Relinquis:
Cornell's programme...is a bit more niche being hotel focused.

Stop. Do not pass go. Cornell's real estate program is in no way a niche hotel program unless that is your goal. It is a 2 year program and does not focus on any particular asset class or area of the industry other than by a student's choice. Students select their own concentrations relative to their interests in areas such as development or finance.

Cornell actually has a whole separate 1 year degree for people looking to get into hospitality, and that places a lot of people in real estate roles as well at top RE consulting/advisory firms, but the two are very distinct.

I stand corrected. You are right.

I only knew about the hotel programme through a friend who is an alum of Cornell's joint programme with ESSEC Business School for their MBA in International Hotel Management. He's now a director at a large hotel investment company. He did a stint in hotel advisory first though.

I don't know much about Cornell's MPS/RE programme, but have interviewed graduates and have met alumni of Columbia, Cambridge and LSE's programmes.

 

Random tidbits:

MIT requires 3 years experience.

Columbia takes you without real estate experience

My coworker/good friend did the Georgetown program and got showered with offers.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
som1:
Thanks CRE, just wondering if your coworker got showered with offer in REPE? Or just RE in general? Thanks!

Everything but oddly enough. REIB, Investment Sales, Corporate Real Estate for a large grocery chain, etc.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
kmzz:
Doesn't surprise me, almost no one at the top repe shops have msre degrees

To be fair, it is a very new program. They didn't have the opportunity back when they were younger.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

I'm gonna be at a big institutional RE shop that might pay for a part time masters. If my long term goal is to get into small time acquisitions and development on my own, would it be worth doing a part-time MS at columbia or nyu to learn more about running your own place?

Even though I would expect to know a lot about institutional grade CRE by the time I branch out on my own, I'm wondering if these MSRE/MSRED programs would give me a better knowledge base for doing development and running it as a business.

Sorry if this is hijacking the thread but it seems sort of relevant since everyone here seems to know a bit about these programs. PM me if you want. Thanks a lot.

 

NealCaffrey,

I think the benefit that would accrue to you from doing an established MSRE(D), especially if you plan on doing your own thing in the same region as the university, would be from the business/social network.

Most of these programs have events each month/quarter/year that bring the current students/alumni together (be it via seminars, state of the market events, mixers, fundraisers, bar nights, etc) and could allow you to find partners or the missing pieces of your development/acquisitions puzzle. Or at least allow you to leverage an associate's pre-vetted contact.

Real Estate is very relationship driven, and no one who is very successful has does it alone.

In terms of the workable academic skill set, one "could" cobble together a pretty decent one (and save the $70k++) on their own if they in a disciplined fashion read/re-read and read again to the point of real understanding industry revered books by: Linneman, Brueggemann, Geltner, Poorvu, Kahr (meaning his text Real Estate Market Valuation and Analysis) plus an accounting and business law book.; and did all the modeling classes from REFM, Excel with Business, and the other ones recommended by the more experienced guys on here. I do know that some people are more visual learners or an unstructured approach hurts their brain, and thus a self-study route may not be realistic or even a practical suggestion.

And, as mentioned earlier, the BEST and uniquely worthwhile part of these MSRE(D) programs is the network you make in school (especially if you are career changing and do not have any friends in the industry already) and the ones you maintain and develop through all their industry focused alumni events. Please excuse the repetition, but cannot stress this last point enough.

 
MogulintheMaking:
This is a good thread. Does anyone know much about NYU part-time? I have read that you can do the first half online/weekly intensive courses. Is this true?

Also, would someone who already has experience and an MBA get anything out of these programs, or are they simply for younger people trying to break in?

Part 1: You should just call NYU and ask them. It would be quicker and more informative. Part 2: I Have seen where people have an MBA or Law degree and do RE Masters programs. Probably a better value to do a one year program in that case. The two year programs are probably better suited to people with less experience (internship opportunity), or who are doing it in lieu of an MBA. For one year: Columbia, for two year: Cornell. NYU: if your company is paying for it and you can go part time.

 
  1. It's a lot harder to say than if you would ask that question for MBA programs. They look for good GPA and test scores but what "good" means varies from school to school. These programs are DRAMATICALLY less stats-focused than MBA programs because they don't have to whore themselves out for the rankings. They look for competence, obviously, but they're far more willing to forgive some shortcomings as long as you make up for it in other areas. Also, a big distinction amongst MSRE, MSRED, and MSREI programs are those designed for experienced real estate professionals, newcomers to the industry, or either.

  2. It depends on the program, but it is incredibly varied. Everything and anything, in all honesty. Most programs show on their websites some examples.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 

In regards to #2: Why don't you do some searching on linkedin with the school in question and the 'master's in real estate degree' and see what comes up.

You can see from that search what effect the degree had on their professional lives and you could always reach out (if not in your network, then track down their company email address) to those individuals and ask them questions about their specific program and overall experience.

 

I know 2 guys who went to Georgetown for the real estate program. They both have the same jobs that they started with, but in fairness, both of those guys have great jobs and are definitely earning more money than the average bear (their peers in the industry). I'm thinking about the Georgetown program, but I'm definitely balking at it a bit when I see these guys who have the same jobs as before. But again, both of those cats had great jobs already--they specialized and didn't switch jobs every 5 minutes. One specialized in structured finance and CMBS and the other specialized in asset management (which is the most boring job ever in the history of Earth).

 

DCDepository,

Did these guys (with the "same jobs") get a title promotion (ie, from VP to Pres, etc) and/or were they given greater duties/responsibility, and/or an increase in salary or equity participation in a short time (causally related) after obtaining their MSRE? Thanks.

 
Jaime_Lannister:

DCDepository,

Did these guys (with the "same jobs") get a title promotion (ie, from VP to Pres, etc) and/or were they given greater duties/responsibility, and/or an increase in salary or equity participation in a short time (causally related) after obtaining their MSRE? Thanks.

I'm going to the going away party tonight of a buddy of mine and coworker who got the Georgetown MSRE and got hired at a big time boutique that arranges debt and equity financing for NYC property owners. He did investment sales before the degree.

His classmates and the previous dean of the program were enormous helps to him. Like "give you faith in humanity" level helps.

For what it's worth

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
Jaime_Lannister:

DCDepository,

Did these guys (with the "same jobs") get a title promotion (ie, from VP to Pres, etc) and/or were they given greater duties/responsibility, and/or an increase in salary or equity participation in a short time (causally related) after obtaining their MSRE? Thanks.

I'm going to the going away party tonight of a buddy of mine and coworker who got the Georgetown MSRE and got hired at a big time boutique that arranges debt and equity financing for NYC property owners. He did investment sales before the degree.

His classmates and the previous dean of the program were enormous helps to him. Like "give you faith in humanity" level helps.

For what it's worth

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
Jaime_Lannister:

DCDepository,

Did these guys (with the "same jobs") get a title promotion (ie, from VP to Pres, etc) and/or were they given greater duties/responsibility, and/or an increase in salary or equity participation in a short time (causally related) after obtaining their MSRE? Thanks.

Yes, they did, but as a result of their tenure at their respective firms, not because of the degree. I think CRE hit on it--if you are trying to get to the next level in your career, working contacts that you meet at the program might be the best benefit (kind of goes to show that there wouldn't be a ton of benefit in doing the program online).

 

In my opinion specialized real estate degrees (MSRE, MSREF, MSRED, etc..) are best fitted for younger professionals who want to “cut a corner” or older professionals who want to lateral into one of the many real estate related sectors.

I agree with CRE, the best MBA programs want strong GPA’s and GMAT scores (they are stereo-typically harder to get into) whereas most RE focused degrees want students with strong professional backgrounds in RE.

If you’re a commercial loan analyst and you get a MSREF, you could get into 95% of RE roles, assuming you’re smart and “good on your feet.” I know this b/c I just signed up for a part-time MSRE Program (2 years out of undergrad) and just finished the interview process. These degrees are very well received and I was able to leverage the degree I haven't earned yet into a larger salary and promotion.

 

Given that you're thinking about HK afterward, it's hard for most of us to comment because that's the other side of the planet - but I will say I know someone from an EM country who did one of the above MSREs, worked for a respected REPE fund here in the US, and then went back home for what appears to have been a fairly successful career.

 

Well, branding isn't the only reason I need to go - I'm already okay on that front, sort of, as I work at work at a big investor now and went to ivy league undergraduate, so it's also about learning/contacts/a break from work... at the same time, I wouldn't spend the time to go unless the name was solid and I'm confident I could get a solid one anyways as I've got a strong international background, 730 gmat taken last year, ivy Ug, etc... Columbia seems like a pretty good option to me, especially since it's in NYC and I haven't spent any time there during my career at this point despite being an american in finance.

What about the Harvard Mdes? Seems like you can throw a good amount of finance in there as well.

 
International Pymp:
Well, branding isn't the only reason I need to go - I'm already okay on that front, sort of, as I work at work at a big investor now and went to ivy league undergraduate, so it's also about learning/contacts/a break from work... at the same time, I wouldn't spend the time to go unless the name was solid and I'm confident I could get a solid one anyways as I've got a strong international background, 730 gmat taken last year, ivy Ug, etc... Columbia seems like a pretty good option to me, especially since it's in NYC and I haven't spent any time there during my career at this point despite being an american in finance.

What about the Harvard Mdes? Seems like you can throw a good amount of finance in there as well.

Given your strong credentials, why don't you just apply to top MBA programs with a strong real estate presence, such as wharton/columbia? (not sure how strong hbs/mit/nyu are in real estate).

 

It depends on the program. A good number of them you can apply to right out of UG, but there are a few that require some work experience like MIT (I think).

This is a great start for your research if you are US based: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graduate_real_estate_education#Master_of_S…

If you are UK based then the Investment Property Forum puts out a good list:http://www.ipf.org.uk/Home/Education/Post_Graduate_Courses/

If you want something more broad, some MBA programs allow for a specialization in Real Estate, like Wharton. For the MBA they require work experience and I would imagine that you don't get as many RE courses as if you were doing an MSRE.

 

any143, may I ask why you are interested? Just curious... Are you interested in doing RE in the long run? I've heard some people saying that the risk that we are exposed to in MSREI is limited thus it is not considered front office work? Can someone clarify this? Thanks!

 
aznchillendude:
any143, may I ask why you are interested? Just curious... Are you interested in doing RE in the long run? I've heard some people saying that the risk that we are exposed to in MSREI is limited thus it is not considered front office work? Can someone clarify this? Thanks!

It is definitely front office. Even the AM jobs are.

 

It is all front office but that shouldn't be a pro in this case. I'm assuming you're asking about an analyst position in the acquisitions team so here is what I know. If you're asking about the AM side, go check the recent thread on the PE forum

All of MSRE used to be under IBD, and then a few years ago it broke off but the analyst and associate programs were still officially a part of the IBD analyst/associate programs. Same training, same pay, same bonus, etc. Working on the acquisitions team = working in a real estate private equity shop on the acquisitions side.

Skillsets: Modeling intensive but transaction experience will depend on the market that you're in (06 07 vs 08 09 were very different obviously). Not much market research / market update stuff, won't have to do nearly as many comps and profiles as your pure banking counterparts, just depends if you're working on take-privates or not. Modeling experience is NOT traditional 3-statement modeling though - this is RE transaction modeling. You'll get some more traditional 3-statement LBO modeling if you work on big take-privates, but again, depends on the market.

Exit oops: You can pretty much infer from the above paragraph that exit opps will be mostly limited to RE. With that said, it is one of the very best places to start your career if you're interested in RE finance. REPE, hedge funds focused on RE, development, traditional property management if that is your schtick, it is all pretty much open to you. Cerberus, BX, Farallon, and Colony are some of the places that I've seen people go. If you want to leverage this into a corporate PE gig though or something similar, I recommend you strongly reconsider. It will be better than most MM banking experiences I think, but compared to other BBs you will have a much harder time landing a corporate PE/hedge fund gig. It's not impossible to break out, I have seen it done, but it is difficult. Hope that helps.

 

Last time I checked merchant banking was part of MSIM, but why does that matter?

Sure, a lot of these skills will also help you with corporate IB/PE in that you will build a strong foundation in the deal process and finance in general. But modeling and valuing real estate assets is very different than doing so for operating companies. If you're working on a bunch of take-privates then it'll be very relevant to corporate PE, but it doesn't look like that'll be the case for the next few years.

Again, it's a great group for RE finance. If you want to go corporate finance route, you should look at other BB groups. If your only other choices are unknown boutiques and MMs then this group is still a better choice no matter what you want to do. Just know that it isn't optimized for corporate finance exit options. Yes it is possible to break out, but it is very difficult. That is the beginning and the end of it.

 

Horses for courses. Your choice generally depends on:

  • How much experience you have and what kind?
  • Where do you want to work (location & firm type)?
  • How much of a branding bump do you need (consider your exiting credentials and your future plans)?
  • Where you can get in...

International Pymp,

If you're targeting REPE at a top firm based in New York, you're probably better off doing an MBA at Wharton/Columbia (or HBS if you can get in) due to the alumni factor and the way the firms recruit especially as many of the better paying REPE firms are part of larger private equity or hedge fund platforms. If you want to continue to be based outside of the US, you have more flexibility in what programme to pursue as you'll have to rely on networking into roles anyway.

If you want to go beyond investing/finance the choice becomes less clear.

 
atwoodt:
Relinquis - Int'l Pymp was asking about 1 yr RE programs, not the top MBA programs. General management degrees aren't for everybody.

Both Relinquis and I are aware that Pymp was asking about 1 year RE programs. We're just wondering if an MBA is a better fit for him if he wants to purse REPE or something else that is more finance driven, since many of those firms actively recruit at b-schools with strong real estate focuses.

 

I understand but don't necessarily agree with what you're saying. I have my masters in RE finance and for the past two years I have helped hire analysts and associates for my group (real estate acquisitions within a PE firm that has over $100b in aum, across our entire platform). Frankly, I've been more impressed with the industry-specific knowledge and skill set from the RE prog candidates than the guys fresh out of a MBA prog. We've been fortunate enough to interview very bright people from both backgrounds. I also don't agree that the MBA is always more finance driven. It really depends on the individual courses taken.

 

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