JD's in Real Estate?

Why is it that many of the most successful real estate legends have JD's? I'm thinking about guys like Thomas Barrack, Sam Zell, Mortimer Zuckerman, etc.

Does it make sense to get a JD if you want to go into real estate? A career path like "UG>JD>Real Estate Law>Real Estate Development/Finance>Create own RE Company" seems to be very common for these behemoths.

For those of you in the RE industry, have you found that many people have JD's? Is it worth getting vs. an MBA or MSRE?

 
Lucaskhan:
Why is it that many of the most successful real estate legends have JD's? I'm thinking about guys like Thomas Barrack, Sam Zell, Mortimer Zuckerman, etc.

Does it make sense to get a JD if you want to go into real estate? A career path like "UG>JD>Real Estate Law>Real Estate Development/Finance>Create own RE Company" seems to be very common for these behemoths.

For those of you in the RE industry, have you found that many people have JD's? Is it worth getting vs. an MBA or MSRE?

actually the opposite is true: most successful real estate entrepreneurs do not have a JD. you are focusing on a small subset of A LOT of successful real estate entrepreneurs, most of whom do not have a JD.

does make sense to get a JD to break into real estate? obviously, no. let me spin your question so it makes a little more sense in a real world context: does it make sense to study law for 3 yrs (and pay 3 yrs worth of very expensive tuition) to break into a career (a career that you could of broken into with just a 2 yr mba or even a top ugrad) that is less lucrative than law?

hypothetically, lets say you did get a JD to break into real estate. so there you are, third yr law school student in fall term, signing onto ocr on the net to apply to real estate jobs. only there is one small problem: there are no real estate job openings. two reasons for this: one, you signed into ocr for JD's, so all the jobs you find are all legal jobs; and also b/c the job mkt sucks right now and nobody is hiring, so there are no openings anywhere. if they are hiring, they are probably hiring ugrads (cheap labor) or hiring mba's (more relevant degree, skill sets and perhaps pre-mba real estate experience) on the same campus you studied law. bummer, dude. in such a situation, your best bet is networking outside the normal ocr system. basically, you set yourself up backwards...and your JD hurts you (debt for 3 yrs tuition, limited connections to real estate employers, very little relevant skill set).

how did i come tot his conclusion? well, its not b/c i am brilliant or particularity experienced. i'm only 25 yrs old and have about 2 yrs exp in the cre business. i know this b/c i contemplated the very same thing. and also b/c a relative of mine tried the same exact thing and failed miserably. she graduated from a top 3 law school with the intention to not practice law, ever. she graduated 2009. when summer recruiting came around, no real estate firms were hiring and she got stuck with summer associate gigs with 3 different top 20 law firms, working in the real estate practice. when 3rd yr came, she only got one offer, an offer to work in corp law, not real estate law like she had intended (b/c the real estate practice at that firm had shrunk and there was no need in that area). her employment has been differed into jan 2011, so she's chillin at home, kickin it with her 'rents. this is not an isolated incident... a lot of kids get fooled into thinking that it is common for JD's to get jobs outside the typical legal career path. law schools even try to advertise this ('we train you to think like a lawyer, and we do it better than other law schools' is something you will hear over and over and over again when checking out law schools).

so do yourself a favor: figure out if you are more interested in cre, law, or something else. then let the hard decisions make themselves up for you.

--- man made the money, money never made the man
 

Basically, for laymen, none of you can even begin to conduct your obligations and duties without the terms of your agreement which the attorney drafts to begin with. Apparently MBAs and MSREs need JDs more than they need you, especially in Real Estate.

 

For real estate a JD is more valuable than MBA and/or MSRE in terms of skills you gain. I worked in acquisitions for a few years, while I did not encounter many of either I was on the entrepreneurial level. Success in real estate ownership comes down to a few things, the biggest being HUSTLE, you have to be a hustler and you have to be very comfortable with taking on risk and selling your vision to investors. Personally I worked for a company led by a man without a high school diploma and he owns a couple thousand units and is not over-leveraged... Of course if you want to work for some RE PE fund then its just like banking etc....

 
JohnTom:
For real estate a JD is more valuable than MBA and/or MSRE in terms of skills you gain.

that's a heck of a statement. could you care to elaborate on why?

--- man made the money, money never made the man
 

LOL @ a diploma helping you find good off-market deals! Also, your claim sounded so absurd that I had to check: if we use the Forbes 400 for example, the majority of those under "Real Estate" do NOT have a JD.

Do NOT go to law school. There are too many law schools and too many law school graduates and not enough good entry-level places for those grads to go. It's also a fucking ripoff - most of those billionaires you're describing are like 80 years old and probably did not go into $150,000 of debt to attend Southwestern University School of Law. Back then law school actually meant something - now, if you don't get into a T14, you might as well not go. The world has changed.

People need to wake the fuck up. There's a guy in my town who develops high rises who doesn't even have a college degree, but he has taught himself a TON about LAW and other subjects. He's a hungry learner and is very well-read.

Shit, you're almost better off working on a construction site if you want to be a real estate entrepreneur.

 
prospie:

LOL @ a diploma helping you find good off-market deals! Also, your claim sounded so absurd that I had to check: if we use the Forbes 400 for example, the majority of those under "Real Estate" do NOT have a JD.

Do NOT go to law school. There are too many law schools and too many law school graduates and not enough good entry-level places for those grads to go. It's also a fucking ripoff - most of those billionaires you're describing are like 80 years old and probably did not go into $150,000 of debt to attend Southwestern University School of Law. Back then law school actually meant something - now, if you don't get into a T14, you might as well not go. The world has changed.

People need to wake the fuck up. There's a guy in my town who develops high rises who doesn't even have a college degree, but he has taught himself a TON about LAW and other subjects. He's a hungry learner and is very well-read.

Shit, you're almost better off working on a construction site if you want to be a real estate entrepreneur.

Shout out to Prospie for dropping knowledge. Children please take notes. That's as real as it gets. Real estate in general is a lot of hustle.

I had a flair for languages. But I soon discovered that what talks best is dollars, dinars, drachmas, rubles, rupees and pounds fucking sterling.
 

The president of my company is a Harvard Law Grad - There are a ton of legal hoops to jump through when you are in the process of acquiring land, obtaining financing, developing real estate. It is not mandatory but is very helpful to have good knowledge of the legal aspect of development, and management of real estate. However you don't have to have a legal degree to become a developer there are many other ways to reach that goal.

 

One of my company's main real estate investment partners is an attorney--but to be more precise, he's a real estate attorney. Long-term real estate holding is almost pure law--zoning, density, exceptions, new neighborhood master plans, site specific site plans, legal compliance, title, operating agreements, tax assessment appeals, settlements, lease agreements, purchase/sale agreements, eviction, lawsuits (lawsuits are soooo common), federal, state and local legal compliance, and on and on and on. Plus, local attorneys know how to work the local system to increase density, get variances, challenge neighbors, etc. It gives them the automatic edge in real estate analysis.

Investing in real estate is just a natural extension of a real estate attorney's knowledge, skills, and ability. In my view, it's nothing more or less. On the margins, I also think real estate attorneys (well, practicing attorneys) have access to a lot of off-the-market deals as a result of the nature of their business.

 

What's that saying? 'Most developers bring expertise in 1 of 3 areas to the table - finance, law or construction' or something. Obviously RE development has a lot to do with law. But doesn't mean it's worth going out and dropping 150/200k and 3 years on a legal education with hopes of breaking into entry level REPE or development. A lot of these guys with law backgrounds were career lawyers that moved over to development later in life. If you're trying to be a developer, there's much more effective and efficient ways to do it (as exhaustively mentioned before). Just hire a lawyer/law firm like everyone else. You're not going to be running the show from all angles - its impossible. You need to be able to delegate but still understand everything, and you can get a sufficient working legal knowledge by just working on deals and projects. It seems like most people here would come in with more of a business/investments expertise, which I think is more valuable at the end of the day (and believe me that is not what your lawyers will be bringing to the table - sometimes theyre even counter productive and cause delays with some six sigma never-gonna-matter legal bullshit).

And all this talk of off market deals - that ain't how it works. If you want off market deals, you need to spend time making friends and establishing a presence in your market. You'll def have a better shot finding them that way than spending your time at law school or cranking out abstracts.

 

To answer OP's question - there is a correlation of real estate entrepreneurs will law degrees as real estate is one of the few areas that a person with legal skills/background can career switch into business and not lose the utility of 100% of their hard won and very expensive past pedigree as half of real estate as DCD pointed out is law (and there background has marketability which can be used a chit to get into a deal or small shop who cannot afford 170k for in house counsel at that time).

 

Honestly, I think it boils down to brain power. Real Estate is far from difficult. Getting into a top law school, passing the bar, working as a lawyer, etc all require a fairly significant work ethic and level of intelligence. So as mentioned previously, the smart lawyer working 90hrs/wk sees his dumb clients making a mint and playing golf 3 days a week(I'm over exaggerating. Sort of.). So he gets in on a deal or two himself, starts working his own investments, and eventually has a little empire.

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the overabundance of lawyers we have right now, too. There are a ton of recent law graduates with student loans that are smart and can't find jobs or pass the bar. California alone has something like a 40% pass rate for the bar every year. That's a lot of smart people with student loans and nothing to do, makes sense that some of them end up in real estate, just like I'm sure a (small) number end up in banking eventually or other careers. Lloyd Blankfein is a lawyer, he seems to be doing just fine in banking. Hell my best friend has a law degree from UCLA, passed the bar on his first shot, and the only offers he's been able to get in law have been in the $50k range with an expected 80 hr week or more. In SoCal! Nope. Not interested. So he got picked up by a startup(used his engineering background and experience to leverage an operations type of role) and is going to have more money than us monkeys one day relatively soon.

TL:DR lawyers are generally intelligent people, RE isn't difficult, so they follow the easier path to money than doing corporate law until their eyes bleed.

 

It doesn't make sense to pursue a career path in RE based on a JD, but there are certainly a lot of people in RE with legal backgrounds. I definitely wouldnt say most in RE have a JD, but having that legal aptitude certainly makes maneuvering in the industry easier, particularly on the development side.

Being litigious is a big part of RE, if you have some kind of dispute you want to win, if you are working on a distressed deal you want things to be settled in your favor, if you are drawing up a lease or any other agreement you want the docs to be carved out your way, if you dont want to pay a contractor you better be ready to fight in court (among other places), if you are being cheated out of rent or payment you better take the person to court. You get the point. There are just so many potential areas of dispute you have to be ready to deal with all the legal issues. Of course you can always outsource the legal stuff, and as you work in the industry you become more familiar with all the common disputes.

It doesnt make sense to get a JD just so you can get a job in another industry, if you want to do IB study finance if you want to trade study something quantitative, or if you want to do RE get a MSRE(D), but with that said, successful RE guys with legal backgrounds usually did go to law firms before that started in RE. They worked in RE law for their firms, advising developers or lenders, and a few years doing that that you do get very good industry experience, make very good contacts with the people you advise, and likely have worked on the bigger and more complicated of deals around.

Similarly, there are corporate lawyers who worked in M&A that find their way to IB or PE.

 

Easy answer... those guys all got their law degrees in the 60s and 70s when being an attorney was still considered “prestigious” and provided lucrative opportunities into other fields because there were far fewer law schools than there are today and they did not let in every retard with a pulse and a heartbeat. There was a time when a man could solely provide for an entire family, buy a house, and have a pension all with a blue collar job. There was also a time when being a lawyer almost guaranteed you wealth and a higher social status. Those days are far behind us.

 

There are a lot of specialties in RE law just like in RE.

Just to name a few:

Tenant/Landlord/Lender Representation This could be anything from counsel for a borrower negotiating loan docs with a lender (sub specialities include whole loans, CMBS and mezz structuring), or for a purchaser negotiating purchase/ sale agreements to tenant/landlord lease negotiation.

Litigation When shit goes bad or when an owner's sue the state for eminent domain cases or tax issues.

Tax/Structuring Lawyers that just spend their days researching and coming up with ways to best structure deals for tax and structure issues.

Can you make more $ than brokerage, possibly. Do the hours suck, possibly. Everything depends on what you want to specialize in and how you approach it (and how you set boundaries, because companies in America won't set them for you).

 

Real estate lawyers which draft contracts between the owner and buyer so that they can settle for certain prescribed rules as defined in the contract. Many blogs here on the internet also gives us the important points to be focused on.

 

Why not reach out to say 5 practicing re attorneys in your target area (by way of alumni, friends of family, linkedin, general email reach-out, etc) for a coffee chat and get a first hand account of what their take is on the profession currently, lifestyle, costs and opportunities. That should move the ball farther down field and you never know what incidental opps may open up as a result of those sincere chats. If you are still unsure. Do a few more of such chats (with RE PE guys who has been at it +7 Years) and I am sure the lines will get filled in quicker and deeper.

Finally, you might want to do some self-inquiry as to why you want to do RE Law, RE PE and/or RE Brok as opposed to other pursuits/professions/careers since in order to really excel at something your heart (over the need for safety or security or even monetary advantage) (and your natural predispositions and abilities) is going to have to be fully in it (once you get safety and security over a certain period of time if the passion is not there more often than not such guys/gals begin to run into problems in one form or facet).

 

On the plus side, I know a number of real estate attorneys that got tired of advising and got into the game themselves, buying and developing property. A bit of a roundabout way to get there though.

Commercial Real Estate Developer
 
Best Response

From my observation, real estate law sounds like it could be boring, but in practice it is probably pretty interesting for the right personality. I've seen our contract attorney--who makes probably $500,000/year, at least (our bill last year was over $100,000 to him)--get into shouting matches with the attorney from the other party. The reality is, real estate law can be amazingly complicated. For a select few very intelligent people, the challenge of the business is a passion in itself.

I've said this before but I'll reiterate--a lot of jobs sound "boring" to college students, but many people find that they are good at a certain job and that once they peal back the surface of the business the marrow underneath is pretty interesting.

The worst part about law is, however, the hours. There's really no getting around it--you make a lot of money by billing a lot of hours. The attorneys I work with are in at 7 am and doing work past 11 pm. To me, that would be why I wouldn't pursue law, not because of the work itself.

Array
 

Real Estate attorney is a good field to choose as our career option. A good real estate lawyer will not only be a good legal companion. But he will also be a good friend to rely on in the future real estate problems or negotiations that you might have. People are keen to find a good real estate lawyer to help them in the process of buying or selling house. Be capable of answering your clients various questions. Also view website to know more about them!

 

It depends on what interests you. Are you excited by finding and creating deals or by the puzzles (and ways you can protect a client when those puzzles turn on them) in the area of RE? Brokerage and Attorney work are essentially at opposite poles. I would advise to intern with a RE attorney for at least 6 months before making any substantive decisions.

 

Working at a top NYC law firm such Herrick Feinstein or Kramer Levin in their land use department would be an incredible opportunity. Some of the biggest attorney's in NYC such as Paul Selver, Jonathan Adelsberg, and Mitch Korbey work with some of the largest developers out there such as Extell, Moinian, and Lightstone. Being part of a land use team would provide you with unparalleled exposure to different development structures throughout the city and to the unique methods developers utilize in order to increase their sites' buildable potential.

Additionally, after working for a top land use team, you can absolutely make the transition to a RE Dev or REPE firm. For instance, Jodi Stein, who was part of Herrick Feinstein's land use dept. recently became Lightstone's VP of Acquisitions & Development. Additionally, through working with some of NYC's most prominent developers, you will get much exposure to their LPs as well.

 

Yeah, there are plenty of lawyers in real estate. I think you'd be dealing with the "discrimination" of the employer assuming you will want more money than you are worth because of your JD (young lawyers are known as very "entitled" people). Nobody will care about your undergrad major--many of the top undergrad schools don't even offer "finance" or "accounting" specialties.

 

Thanks for responses. To answer the quesiton about closings, at my firm I did home closings and commercial building closing. At my finance company I close on purchases of easements, right-of-ways, rent assignments, etc...Why would res be considered a negative?

I see job postings for anaylsts and associates at REITs, Developers, private equity. Given what info I provided so far would I be compettive for these jobs? I have never worked exclusively on the finance end of things but I've been involved as an attorney since I need to review everything before we close on deals. Will such lack of hard finance experience be a detriment?

Finally, what is the lifestyle (hours, salary, bonuses, advancement) like as an analyst or associate at one of these firms? I know thats a broad question but any answers will help. Thanks!

 
jeanpaulvalley:
Why would res be considered a negative?
I mean ... to provide the harshest possible response to your question, if I were a bigshot acquisitions guy at, say, Brookfield and you're hoping to work for me, I'm going to laugh in your face if you're one of those two-bit dime-store attorneys with a JD from University of Laverne who does closings for $300 a pop for first-time homebuyers.

edit: oh, and LOL at 50-70 being hellish!

 

DCD's comment is pretty accurate, my company has turned down applicants for analyst positions due to MBA or JD degrees as they are overqualified. It's not that they can't do the work, but management thinks he/she will invariably become restless. However, if you play up your understanding of cash flows (arithmetic), financing (not that complicated), and experience with the acquisition process (tedious but important) I think you'll have a few offers.

Lifestyle is much better due to the relationship-driven nature of the industry, you can't hear about an off-market deal spending all night in front of your computer.

Comp information is conspicuously absent in RE Epiphany. I like to think it's because we're above the petty pissing contests in IB and S&T, but it's probably because there's no consensus. I recently accepted a recruiter's email just so I could ask her what the hell "market" is. The estimates below vary WIDELY based on fund-type and geography; Chicago, Houston and Atlanta will pay much less than San Francisco and New York, just as a group solely working on Core will pay less than pure Opportunistic. I've omitted outliers at the top (Blackstone/TPG/Top-tier boutiques) and bottom (Jethro's Real Estate Co.), but that comes into play more for the bonuses. IMO, you can usually tell where a company lands on the spectrum based on the bios of VPs.

Analysts Base: 50K - 90K Bonus: 20% - 60%

Associates Base: 80K - 130K Bonus: 20% - 70%

VP (high cost of living city) Base: 150K -225K+ Bonus: 30% - All the tea in China

Feel free to chime in, just wanted to give people a jumping off point. And yes, there are associates making $275K+ all-in, but I think that's often misleading.

Fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds of run. - Kipling
 

Couple additional questions: 1. Is there a time window to move from law to finance? I imagine the further along you get in practice the less likely someone is to take you on. I am a 2012 law grad and am concerned that if I cant secure a finance gig soon then I will be stuck in law. Any truth to that? 2. Also, just wondering if I could get any help on the scale of difficulty of securing associate position at the following : REIB, REPE, REIT, RE Consulting, RE Developer/Acquisitions. I put them in that order as that is what the hierarchy seems to me from my very casual research. For record I am a t3 jd without biglaw experience. RE experience is strong though.

 
jeanpaulvalley:

Couple additional questions:
1. Is there a time window to move from law to finance? I imagine the further along you get in practice the less likely someone is to take you on. I am a 2012 law grad and am concerned that if I cant secure a finance gig soon then I will be stuck in law. Any truth to that?

You do not have to be young. I personally know several guys who went from biglaw partner to finance or real estate roles.
2. Also, just wondering if I could get any help on the scale of difficulty of securing associate position at the following : REIB, REPE, REIT, RE Consulting, RE Developer/Acquisitions. I put them in that order as that is what the hierarchy seems to me from my very casual research. For record I am a t3 jd without biglaw experience. RE experience is strong though.
as usual, it depends. in the REIT world, there are no-name REITs and then there are more selective ivy league-esque places like SL Green. Some developers are very hard to get a job at, like HInes, but many are so small they don't even have a secretary. You put consulitng before acquisitions/development and I and most people here would say that's ridiculous.
 

Ullam quidem odit magni nesciunt amet. Est deserunt officiis maxime sint cumque dicta et.

Sed in sequi pariatur voluptates eos. Sequi dolor hic cumque dicta quisquam sit. Ipsa blanditiis deleniti itaque.

Laboriosam in eius non minus sit repellendus. Reiciendis quidem perspiciatis consequuntur ea. Voluptatibus nihil iste ullam in iste saepe quas.

Consequatur ut exercitationem qui consectetur sequi dolores iste et. Autem ab autem aut optio voluptatem amet voluptatum.

Commercial Real Estate Developer

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. (++) 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
3
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
4
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
5
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
6
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
7
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
8
DrApeman's picture
DrApeman
98.9
9
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
10
bolo up's picture
bolo up
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”