When to Resign
I am going to be resigning from a BB IBD position to join a different BB. I will be getting the offer letter early next week. Of course, I will wait until the official letter comes in, but I am wondering if is it typical to wait until the background check is complete and everything is truly finalized? I have a minor drug misdemeonor charge from 2011 (which shouldn't be an issue), but would still rather wait until they perform the background check. Thoughts?
Personally, I’d wait until the background check is cleared before resigning. In a worse case scenario, they find the charge, pull the offer after you’ve resigned from the first BB, and you’re stuck without options. And if that happens, then you’re stuck with having to come up with a story on why you were suddenly unemployed at interviews...
What’s the harm in waiting?
Yes I would strongly recommend waiting for the background check to clear
In similar threads, the best advice is to wait until everything is finalized.
(1) this wouldn’t be an issue if you had a clean background.
(2) give notice to your old employer at the last possible moment. It’s common for them to say “we don’t need two weeks notice, your last day is today”. So there’s little incentive to give them early notice.
Your first comment is incredubly insightful, truly. Anything else painfully obvious and of no help you'd like to add?
You can throw as much of a hissy fit as you want, it doesn't make me wrong ;-)
You must be fun at parties.....
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
The main question I have is what my new employer will expect. Is waiting to resign until everything is completed and there are no contingencies standard practice?
Yes. And if questioned by HR / your team, you can communicate as much. Any sensible person will understand your desire to have everything secured before pulling the cord. Have you negotiated a start date? Doubt that your leave timing is even something they will press.
Nice good to know. We have not discussed a start date, the hiring manager said HR is going to reach out early this week with the official offer. If they bring it up I will tell them I want to wait. If they don't bring it up, I will just wait until finalized and not say anything about when I am resigning.
Play it safe. Wait until everything clears with the new firm.
Until it's in writing, and all things are clear, treat it as if it doesn't exist.
Things have a nasty way of being pulled when you least expect or want, rather be 100% sure.
Consider your Downside vs Upside in waiting.
Even if they give you shit about waiting for the background check to clear (they won’t), just tell them you have heard of people taking a very long time to clear (100% true) and you can’t/won’t go without a paycheck. I have heard of cases that have literally taken months to clear, specifically because of someone with the same/similar name doing fucked up stuff and it took time to confirm that it wasn’t the same person. Not saying this is common, but why take the risk?
100,000% wait for background check to clear.
I have had this exact situation dick fuld has described where someone was speeding and recklessly driving and from my understanding turned into some sort chase in a state i have never been in but had my name. So the offense got linked to me some how.
Had my offer intially pulled and then reinstated once things cleared up. It took forever to clear things up and my group was ready to just forget the offer because of delayed timing but MD was patient and liked me.
Moral of the story, the strangest shit can happen so don't resign until everything is cleared.
GSP123 How did your current BB look that the drug misdemeanor?
I assume you disclosed and they never made it a big deal.
They didn’t care. Never brought it up, although I don’t think they are legally allowed to ask closed cases.
And as a side note
In my experience it generally doesn’t mater how long you’ve been with the company or how ‘beloved’ you are. Once you quit you’re done, it’s pretty... interesting to say the least how people’s attitudes shift towards people that quit. BFF’s before, after that - “who?”
Always better to be safe than sorry. You don't owe your current employer anything, not worth entering even the slightest risk for no upside. They would look after their self-interest and fire you in a heartbeat if they had to, you should also maximize the outcome for yourself and eliminate any downsides.
UPDATE Received the offer and accepted. Both the recruiter and hiring manager had no expectations that I would resign before the background check was complete. So, obviously I will be waiting until there are no contingencies before resigning. Thanks for all your advice/comments.
Congratulations! Glad everything worked out.
Knowing when to quit (Originally Posted: 12/29/2017)
Hello all,
Long time reader first time contributor.
Don't want to divulge too much here as my colleagues are on here as well. That being said, my background is buy side. I have been with my current firm for 3 years right out of my MBA. I am in my late 30s. I analyze investment opportunities for the firm and contribute to the presentation of the idea/opportunity to senior management.
I quite like my job as I am using a lot of what I have learnt from my MBA on the job. Very fulfilling. The hours committed to the job is rather intense but not as bad as the sell side from what I have read on this site.
My dilemma: I have been with this firm for 3 years now and I have yet to be promoted. Could I associate this as a sign that I don't really fit this job or I am not very good at it? Surely, promotions have happened within the firm but I get missed for some reason. I have candidly spoken to my superiors about this but there doesn't seem to be a criteria for promotion.
Admittedly, I do make mistakes on the job and I do my best to catch them before I present them.
So my questions for you veterans in the industry are: 1) Assuming that my current employer has a 'no firing' policy, should I take my lack of promotion as a sign from them as I am not doing a good job?
2) What is a reasonable amount of time/number of years for an analyst at a medium sized buy side firm to get promoted? 1 year? 2 year? 3 year+?
3) (This question rarely gets talked about or the answers is always 'you must be perfect') I understand that I should be aiming perfection but I am flawed and I make mistakes. Realistically, are analysts really perfect in the work that they present to their associate analysts or directors within the team? (I believe by the time the info is presented to senior management that it should be bullet proof which is my case - it is just that errors are made at my level)
Three years ago, I was rather excited to land this job because it was a career pivot to something that I thought I could never do. I have not been let go but that doesn't mean that I am doing a good job so I would like to check what the 'industry standards' are.
Thank you for your help and I am looking forward to reading your responses.
Hey junior_to_buyside, I'm the WSO Monkey Bot...do any of these help:
No promises, but sometimes if we mention a user, they will share their wisdom: ajanatka Anthony-Irwin kcampbell11
I hope those threads give you a bit more insight.
Time To Quit -- Trader? (Originally Posted: 04/17/2013)
I'm a big believer in chasing down your dreams and all that trite stuff. But I'm thinking it is time to move on to pursue something else.
I've spent the past 4-5 years or so chasing down the dream of becoming a trader, and I think today I got the final nail in the coffin. My story is as follows:
I went to Johns Hopkins and studied economics. When I got out I took a job at ING doing some middle office crap. I did that for 3 years and started to learn about what the life of a trader was. I took my GMAT got a 730, and got a scholarship to apparently the worst MBA program in the country, Notre Dame, where they are a core school at one BB, and it is UBS. I now know how big of a dumbass I was for going to that school, but that doesn't help me out. Feel free to point out how big of a jackass I am though.
So when I got out of my MBA in 2011 I got a job working in a finance type role for a fund of funds group. I networked my ass off in that spot and got in front of some people and created some sort of ad hoc internship where I would go down and spend time on the trading desk twice a week. I served as almost a research analyst for this group for about 6 months. They liked me (or so they told me), they wanted to bring me on as a junior trader and I was thrilled. I get the go ahead from my existing boss and during the transition all of the sudden that group is potentially being removed and they are trying to bring another group in to replace it. So they run me out to interview for a training program which would be a great opportunity instead of bringing me on to a group that is potentially getting the axe. I thought I nailed the interviews. Turned out I was on the wait list with one other person and all the other candidates (5 total) took their offers. I just found out today.
So here I am a 29 year old loser, trying to break into S&T but now I'm likely too old. I don't have any good experience relating to S&T besides this ad hoc internship that I created while doing my other job. And if these guys on the desk liked me as much as they said they did, I'd have a job. I have a worthless MBA, not so great experience, and all the networking I've done might have just gone out the window at my current firm.
I can make a good living doing other things. I have people I know in other industries that have said they would love to have me. But I just want to be a damn trader and it seems like I have a better chance of banging Kate Upton than that happening at this point.
So as I see it I have 3 options:
Find a way to start over the networking process and continue chasing this dumb dream.
'Off' myself - I kid, well only partially
Just get a good paying job outside of Wall Street. I'm not doing middle office work, I'd rather go with option #2.
Is it time to quit?
Thanks in advance,
Huge Loser
I see this as somewhat misguided. I thought from your title that you would have put much more substantial effort into securing an S&T role. Basically there was a bad stroke of luck and now you're ready to give up
Have you tried networking with those guys to see what opportunities in the industry or at other companies are? Any of them could give you a recommendation and it only takes one of their friends to give you a shot. Also, it's only been 2 years since your MBA, don't include MBA as your time gearing towards being a trader unless you networked during that time and studied trading all the time
You can quit and that is not necessarily a bad thing as there are many other opportunities available. But it seems like you are afraid of actually trying. Networking 'your ass off' doesn't count if it was only at your existing firm. That being said, your networking did pay off as you now have something to put on your resume. I would spin that experience like crazy and make it stand out.
You just need to cast a much wider net...
That's probably a better way to look at things. I just figure at my age it might be getting a little late. I was trying to apply some self depricating humor in my initial post.
Thanks for the different perspective. As this just happened, I guess I am being too dramatic. Perhaps I just need to work harder. But you say it is not impossible so I guess that is a good start.
Can't tell if this is an awesome troll or not
If it is a troll then kudos to the OP, very well done
Option 4. Daytrade your PA.
I lost my job as a trader last year, due to health reasons. My health is still recovering but in the meantime I started daytrading and I'm having a lot of fun doing it. In fact, I'm not sure I want to go back into S&T.
If it goes well you can bring your track record to future interviews, which is always a plus.
Really? One job didn't go your way and you want to quit. What will you do when a trade doesn't go your way, quit?
Reach out to any ND alumni possible, any alumni from your UG, anyone you may have met along the way. Speak with the traders who liked you see if they can help. They know people at other banks and can pass your name a long.
The sales and trading industry has been steadily declining in the past years. There are less players, increased automation, fewer 'good' trades, less pay and increased competition due to the amount of laid off talent out there. You should realize this and understand that breaking into trading involves a lot of luck and determination. Since you have your MBA, it is tougher IMO to break into a trading role since they see the MBA and think it makes you a somewhat less serious candidate for trading. Trading has fewer spots in general, and I feel that they are going to the more quanty candidates (MFE, Stats/math, engineering). MBA is not a deal breaker but it does not translate well since its more theoretical in nature.
I think you are best off leveraging your network and working in IB or some buyside (AM/IM) role. I know sell side trading seems lucrative and fun, but realize that the trading floor is very intense and stressful. Buy side roles teach you more and you can always go to a sell side shop later if and when the markets pick up. Always have perspective, it's better to play the trends than end up in a pigeon holed position such as trading a dead or declining product (ie muni's, cash-equities). An observation from my time is that most of the senior traders or people in the senior trading positions started out in research, buyside programs, IB, ops or something unrelated but highly relevant (military). Your not going to be a rockstar trader fresh out of b-school since your not going to be trusted to take big risks until you can prove yourself. Trading requires very thick skin and never giving up. To be honest, if you are this crushed at not breaking in, you might have a hard time adapting to the trading culture. Good luck
The S&T industry is just tough right now. The number of sales jobs have shrunk while the applicant pool continues to grow. Most major banks have started to lay off non-BSD senior sales people and back fill their books with younger just as capable talent. Furthermore, the affect of Dodd-Frank is going to start diminishing spread based revenue and limit the opportunity for lucrative relationships. While these factors will certainly not kill the industry, it has changed, and the prospects of getting a job on the sell side at a major bank are slim.
In terms of trading, with no track record in trading and no quant background you are certainly not the "typical" candidate. It is also important to understand the dynamics on the Trading side of S&T. The Volcker rule has limited prop activity at banks. It still exists but not in the same way it did five or even two years ago. The odds of finding your way into a trading job at a BB are virtually non existent.
The best opportunity for you, if you want to get into trading, is going to be at a small prop shop. I'd look in Chicago and Houston. Small prop shops are good in the sense that they do not have formal hiring and they are genuinely more concerned with personality and passion than they are pedigree. They are bad because you will make absolute dirt until you start trading and, in certain circumstances, you may have to work nights.
If you want to make it into this industry its time to go for broke. I'm talking balls to the wall MJ while sick, Byron Leftwich getting carried down the field, Kerri Strug at the olympics type shit.
If you can't do that get out. Feel free to PM if you want to talk. I've worked at a Prop shop and a bank.
Best time to resign (starting new job) (Originally Posted: 06/22/2010)
Basically I am working switching jobs (to banking from other sector) and start with new job from around 23 Aug. My current job requires a 4 week notice period .
THe banking guys are going to send the offer letter in next few days and will be doing a background check after this. I was wondering when might be the best time to resign? After they've completed the check? After I've signed the contract?
Also, I get around 25 days holidays in my current job and haven't used too many. I was wondering how does that work when leaving the job? Supposing I have 2 weeks of holidays left, would they just allow me to leave after 2 weeks of notice (and 2 weeks of paid holiday)? or do companies follow some other process?
Thank you!
Take a few days of that vacation and wait till it's a sure thing. Then give four weeks notice.
agreed above
You will usually lose your vacation. Saw that happen to several people who left the firm.
Look up company policy and see if you can at least get your vacation pro-rated as per company policy. If not, you're SOL. Sort of like trying to have your 401k match vest in a layoff (something that should happen, IMHO.)
Wait until you have jumped through all the hoops for the new job and signed the contract before you tell your current employer. In the meantime you might as well take all the vacation you have as it will likely be wasted if unused. Some companies will prorate it for you so check into that. Make sure you give a minimum of the four weeks notice they require, you don't want to burn any bridges this early in the game. Depending on your situation and relationship with your boss you can give more to help them out but you have to feel that out. You don't want to be out of work for longer than you have to be. Every company has different policies so it's hard to say what they will let you do, if you have a contact in HR you can trust not to screw you I would talk to them about it.
Probably your best bet. Good luck.
Regards
bump
thanks judowned! any other advice?
When are you quitting? (Originally Posted: 05/10/2011)
I'm sure there are quite a few monkeys out there heading to business school this fall. For those working full time in whichever career, when do you plan to quit/ resign in preparation for the fall? June? July? August? Did you already resign? Do you have your Spiel written down? (Ted Forstmann lol) I'm conflicted between June and July. Any opinions would be appreciated!
Curious as well.
How does taking the summer off before Bschool look to recruiters later on?
I'm thinking the very beginning of August, but I'm starting in late September.
Where are you going GB (if you don't mind me asking publicly)? If you want to PM, that's cool. Thanks.
i took off 6 months, and would say most of my classmates quit between april and june. no one cares.
Shit, then I'm going surfing for six months
Orientation starts in the beginning of August for me. I am literally working up until the day before I leave to move in. So, I might have a couple days off for traveling and settling in. Personally, I'd rather have the extra money over taking a vacation.
I'm interested in how you guys resigned though. I'm planning on giving two weeks notice. But I'm not sure if I should write an official letter of resignation or how it all works.
I just got into Bocconi in Milan (Msc. Finance) and I'm waiting on LSE Accounting and Finance. LSE would probably be my first choice, especially since I missed the deadline to get a full scholarship at Bocconi.
I would rather burn my vacation time in the spring/early summer, and then work untill school started. I get 15 days off a year - might as well get paid while I am on vacation.
My vacation is "use it or lose it," so I'll probably take a week or two off in June and July and get paid for it. It won't be a Ric Flair jetsetting vacation though, just go to cape cod with family. Then as soon as I get back to work BOOM two weeks notice.
Any vacation I don't take gets paid out when I leave and I could definitely use the extra cash.
Target for me is early June, the earlier the better. Program starts mid July, so I'm gonna spend every day until then working out, getting smarter, picking up a hobby, and partying my ass off.
My program starts in September but I'm so fucking sick of this job (consulting). I cant wait to make the transition to banking! Just hanging on till the end of July coz the bills gotta get paid man fuck.
Quitting time (Originally Posted: 03/22/2015)
Hi,
I know this topic has been discuss previously. But I want to ask the question with my own set of variables.
So I work for a financial data service provider doing mundane work for about a year and a half now.. (first job out of college) My boss is horrible, and I just dont feel like doing this job anymore.
I am looking to get into credit.. Currently learning about credit.. Signed up for the CFA (December) and will starting working on my excel skills. I am also taking a English class
I know what I want to do now, and I feel like I can use the free time (after I quit my job) to work on the task above. If I quit my job before I get hired, how bad will it look?
Is it be possible to spin it into a positive; showing the new employers that I am taking initiative to learn the skills needed for a credit position?
Thank You.
It will be though to explain the gap in your resume since many people are working and taking the CFA or learning other things.the hardest step would be getting hr to get you an interview but I think if you got in front of someone you would be able to explain it. You also better pass the CFA and be a pro at excel or else this would all be a waste. I don't really understand how you would study and do this everyday for 8 months that's overkill
tbh, just keep getting paid to advance your skills. Collect the paycheck, study, and network/apply to new jobs. A gap in your resume for studying seems weak, considering that the new job may start before December, and then it makes it seem as if you can't handle both.
@"pubfinanalyst" @"Loki777" Thanks for the feedback. I just want to make the best decision possible..
My current thoughts are to stick with this job and have patience.
I look at unemployed applicants very scepitically.
If you quit your old job before lining up your new job, you're very brave.
I think I am done being foolish for now.. I just want to be smart and right.
With spelling like that, you should be open to all types of candidates. :-)
But honestly- having a gap on your resume isnt the worst thing. But you better have a good reason why its there.
Quitting because you hate your job would appear flakey and demonstrate that you couldn't handle the burden of networking while working.
What you must do is find that special sweet spot- of working 'just enough' at your job, while expending the rest of your efforts on your job search.
Based on my past experiences I think my bravery is foolishness. Im still not sure what is right..
Don't quit before you have your new job, that's what everyone is saying. If necessary, find an intermediate job between this one and the credit one you really want - but don't quit to study for CFA etc when you can do it alongside work
Sometimes it is hard to tell if my movements is restricted by fear and the conforming society, or if I am being smart by not taking a gamble. I read books and every chapter seems like a different perspective.
I guess if I am not sure what is right than I will be stoic and stay until I figure it out.. hopefully,
Real struggle - Time to Quit? (Originally Posted: 07/02/2015)
Hi everyone, want some advice here. I have not had much success in job hunting in the early years since graduating 3 years ago. Hence, i have been job hopping roughly every 12 months over the past 3 years, therefore i already have 3 different jobs in my short professional career. Although I started out with a sh*t job, but each time i move, i managed to get a decent pay rise and a bigger role (in terms of responsibilities).
I am really enjoying my current role and mix in really well with my colleagues. Only downside is the role is based in a small city meaning social life is limited and I find that really depressing for someone in their mid 20s. I am working with a recruitment agency for an even bigger role in London with a decent pay rise. The final interview went well so I think an offer is likely to come out after reference check.
Should I take the opportunity to jump now despite my professional history? I don't want to jeopardize my long term career for short-term gains. Will this impact my career over the long term if i don't have a job that lasts more than 2 years in the past 3 jobs?
Should i speak to my manager about my feelings? I have never raised this up during our private chat as i didn't feel it is work related and i doubt much can be done.
What would you do if you were me? Please advise, thanks.
What were the three roles?
Advance your goals & don't look back. There is no use passing on a better offer, bigger roles, more fulfillment just to stay in a position so you "don't look like a job hopper".
Nvm looked at your previous topics - what is the job offer? Would need more info to give good advice
Whats the base salary at the current level?
don't worry about jumping ship. as long as you can make a coherent explanation when you want to move to the next role. as long as all of your job switch makes sense (i.e you really want W and these XYZ moves are for you to get there eventually).
As long as you get the opportunity to explain yourself. That's something I'm struggling with myself at the moment.
If the position itself is better it's a no-brainer. If you're going primarily for the social aspects because it's London (and I used to live in London and love the city so I understand wanting to live there) rather than your small city but your current position offers better long terms opps (either at that firm or exits from that firm if you stay for a longer time), then you need to weigh which is more important: living in London for the lifestyle vs. your current city for the pure career choice.
London most likely offers more opportunities overall but if you choose that option I'd try to stay at that job for at least 2 years, if not a few more because you have jumped around a bit so far.
wrong comparison.
is the position better? go.
Thanks guys for your feedback and it really helps me to put things into perspective. My background is in Treasury Front Office for a global corporate with headquarter based in a small city. New role is similar but will have more focus on structuring ABS deals for the company. Since it is a small and fast growing company, there will also be opportunities to do some corporate finance projects too. I will report directly to the treasurer who is an ex-Wall Street banker. So i am sure there will be a lot i can learn from him.
Comp is not comparable to IB, but enough to have a reasonable live in London i guess. £45-£60k range. I am targeting £50+ to take the offer. Any Londoner has thought about this range?
That's similar to a 2nd/3rd year analyst base pay, so not bad at all. You should be able to live comfortably in central London with flatmates. If you want to live on your own you'll have to look at zone 3 or further, or perhaps a tiny studio in some of the not so nice areas in zone 2.
I'd take the job. ABS is an interesting business, and you might be able to exit into a securitised product structuring or sales position at an investment bank, if that's what you want. Usually it's done the other way around though.
when is the best time to look to leave? (Originally Posted: 10/02/2012)
Used the search function, didn't really come up with anything specific to S&T. If you're in s&t at a BB, when is the appropriate time to look to leave if you want to go to the buyside? Is 1 year in too soon, or do you have to wait at least 2?
I've heard differing opinions. some say anytime is fine, and early is fine because hfs prefer hiring very junior analysts (cost reasons i suspect), others say 2 years minimum.
any thoughts?
thanks
if you know what style of fund you'd like to work for and you have the skills and resume to get you there, then it's time to go
I have never worked in S&T but know someone who has and got fucked hard with an undeserved layoff. Don't act like you have to be loyal to them, when someone above you would happily cut you before bonus time just to increase the size of theirs. Also, it'll be much easier to find a job while you are working than try to find one if you've been laid off. Not saying you will, but start exploring your options now.
Also,
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/why-youre-so-easy-to-replace
Didn't know the usual exit Op for S&T was a Junior Analyst at a HF. Is this common?
I know someone who's leaving S&T for a prop shop 1 month after training. No big deal.
when someone asks a question like this, I instantly know he's not a trader material.
When are you planning to leave? (Originally Posted: 01/29/2014)
Now that most of us have an acceptance in hand, when are you planning to hand in your 2 week notice? For those that have already left, how long did you give yourself to wind down from the professional life before school starts?
I am thinking of leaving in mid-March. I basically started working since I graduated from college and it's been close to 6 years of non-stop working. Therefore I am looking forward to some sweet, sweet time off. Does anyone think this could be an issue? 5 months of chillaxing / traveling.
5 months is a lot of free time unless you decide to go on a backpack tour across the world or something. You'll also have a lot of free time during school (especially if you do consulting/banking and have everything squared away by January of first year). Breaks are stretched out (look at any school calendar) and you are not in class 8-6 everyday 5 days a week.
Planning to leave around Memorial Day weekend. Still working out an exact end date with my project team/client. I have to move out of my apartment at the end of May, so will go on a Europe trip, hang out at the beach, and start on some networking over the summer. Will move up north August 1, a couple weeks before Orientation events start.
Don't think five months is any sort of issue other than for your own mental/financial sake. Certainly don't blame you though - I'm already out the door mentally, and have four months to go.
That sounds pretty awesome! And lol out the door mentality is an understatement :)
Five months is a lot. I took about 100 days. Two months were spent traveling internationally and the rest was getting to know my new city/classmates and a few domestic trips. I definitely started to get a little stir crazy by the end of it, so three months was pretty perfect for me.
Yea I am planning to spend a month just spending time at home (originally from Asia). Then probably another month traveling all over the place. (Need to decide where) Were you bored out of your mind by then?
was going to take 2-3 months off before truly letting the price tag sink in...pretty tough to leave $ on the table. am now thinking of taking closer to a month, maybe 6 weeks off.
as noted, there are a lot of breaks throughout the two years, and chances are the FT gig will not start immediately after graduation. i also am not a big fan of the $150k is nothing in the long run argument and prefer instead to minimize my debt obligation coming out of school.
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Velit blanditiis est omnis earum consequatur esse incidunt. Doloremque id maxime autem voluptatem natus. Officiis et deleniti similique id fugit iure et in.
Aliquid ut et dicta est dolorem molestiae. Inventore ullam consequatur dolorem tempore perspiciatis expedita iusto. Sit sit accusamus consequatur et quo dolor. Minima voluptatem delectus sit debitis et mollitia. Occaecati vel aut sit eum.