Recent Ivy Grad with a 3.9 GPA/missed OCR... screwed?

missed OCR because was formerly pre-law.

3.9 GPA @ UPenn, majored in history. loads of academic awards.
no relevant work experience.

only quant classes taken - 1) calculus II, 2) microeconomics, 3) macroeconomics (all As).

interested in banking. what should i do?

-masters of finance (lack the quant classes)
-masters of economics (lack the quant classes)
-masters of international relations (then specialize in something econ related)
-work 2 years, do well on GMATs, apply for MBA (... can't find a job that I find challenging & fulfilling enough, thus am unemployed atm.)

 

Yea I guess I picked the wrong/ an "unchallenging" major? I was just good at taking exams, took the "easy" way out (regrettably) and didn't really think about practicality.

 

I agree with the above. I think you would be a strong candidate for law school. You might consider going into corporate law, focusing on M&A. Furthermore, if you have not had any relevant experience, I am sure you have no idea why you would actually want to do banking anyways, so why not go for law instead.

It's only September, so I believe you have time to take the LSAT and apply for law school before you graduate.

Go East, Young Man
 

Beggers can't be choosers, and unfortunately there's nothing in your profile to suggest that you have any real skills to offer an employer. I do realize people with your profile get hired by consulting firms all the time. That's because they exist solely to offer generous training and employment opportunities to Ivy League graduates who would otherwise be serving overpriced lattes at fair trade coffee shops. If you missed that get-out-of-jail free card, you're in a pickle, because most other employers actual do expect you to be able to perform a service for them. And, speaking as a former history major myself, you really don't have many marketable skills to offer. ("Thinking critically" is not a real skill, by the way. It's a pre-requisite for most jobs where you don't wear a name-tag every day.)

So start looking for a job. Not the most prestigious job. Any job where you'll learn something. Boutique consulting shop? Go for it. Business development at a start-up? Apply! Paralegal? Sounds right up your alley. If you still can, I'd look at...

-Teach for America -Peace Corps -AmeriCorps -Rhodes Scholarship -Fulbright Scholarship

Can you delay graduation? Pick up a minor or certificate? That could really save your ass.

 

Thanks for the advice. I really SHOULD have delayed graduation - I was not in a fit medical condition the first semester of senior year and decided to soldier through anyway, but alas, I've already graduated.

I am also applying for a Fulbright ETA

 

Since you're non-wharton and did not major in a quantitative subject, you're probably not getting a good finance or consulting gig. Your best bet is to crush the LSAT and go to a top law school or do teach for america/some other feel-good stuff and then apply to b-school. MBA adcom jizz their panties over government/non-profit types, so if your heart is set on b-school that's your best bet.

 

Why are you so worried about "quant" classes? If you want to do banking, you don't really need that much.

I'd suggest going for MSF and coupling it with a CFA.

Also, something I've always thought would be cool that may be pertinent to your background would be working at a think tank (Brookings Institute, CATO, etc).

People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for freedom of thought which they seldom use.
 
rufiolove:

I disagree with much of what has been posted here.

Agreed. Why are people telling OP to go to law school?

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 
gg2:

What would you suggest?

Kill the defeatist attitude, get off your fat ass, and call some people to ask for a job. Do some searching to start targeting firms that interest you and start contacting them tomorrow. You need action right now. Starting is the hardest part, but once you start, it becomes much easier.

Don't do any more schooling right now, it isn't doing you any good.

 

Guy your not screwed. Go back to school and get some internships. Try getting one during the year and minor in something, then get one during the summer and you should be good. The TFA to MBA idea is decent but its going to take you longer to get where you want to be.

I'm in a worse situation than you but I've delayed graduation by a year and half so I can get two internships under my belt before I apply for FT. I thought I had no chance but I've leveraged my network and have found two really great mentors(go for drinks and on casual terms) who will be instramental to my sucess. My GPA is absymal and I'm at a non target.

Bottom line is network your ass off and get some relevant experiences or wait four years to get into IB by going the TFA route.

 

I'm in the UK so I'm not that familiar with the US programs but some MSF type programs would accept you. For example, the MSc Finance in LSE is a great programme and they would accept you if you do well on the GMAT. Unfortunately you would have to take the GMAT but with a 3.9 from an Ivy that should't take more than a month. You could also do the MSc Economic History, the programme also places some people in banking and it doesn't require a GMAT.

 

Hey flamingo thanks I'm looking into MSc Finance in UK definitely since they are HALF the price of MIT's program. I also went to their info session at my college and it did NOT give me a good impression at all.

 

Try to LinkedIn network, or contract UPenns career services. You've got a 3.9 and access to a juicy network, with a bit of hustle I'm sure you can get a few doors opened without going back to school. If you have good work experience you may be able to get into Stern/CBS and go from there.

 
Best Response

You have a couple options.

1) Law school. I think this is a bad choice for all the reasons you've outlined. Law is in a structural downturn, not a cyclical one, and the financial burden of the degree is no longer rewarded by the virtual guarantee of a high-paying BigLaw gig. The opportunity cost of three years' foregone earnings has to be taken into consideration as well.

2) Network for a consulting job. I think people are missing the fact that you already graduated (at least that's how I'm reading your post). It sounds like you graduated this May without a job lined up. Regardless, you went to a great school and came out with great grades. You need to weave a compelling story (the shelf full of academic awards is key here) about overcoming personal difficulty (medical issue), self-discovery and intellectual curiosity as you discovered your true interests late in college (dropping pre-law because you no realized it wasn't truly for you), and began filling your time with some meaningful pursuit (learning a language, volunteering at some unique place, etc. ... you need to start this now to fill in the gap since May).

This isn't that outlandish a story, and given the alumni network you have plus the academic credentials that signify you aren't a brain-dead, incapable moron, you have a shot at literally every consulting firm (if that's what you want). The people saying you're out of the running for consulting because you didn't have a quantitative undergrad focus are wrong, frankly. mbavsmfin was a trader who is now a first-year MBA at Wharton. He's a bit separated from the undergrad consulting recruiting process. I know many, many kids from Ivy (and worse) schools with a 3.7+ in a soft subject who floated their way into McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Oliver Wyman, LEK, Accenture, BAH, etc.

3) One-year Master's program. The MIT MFin is not for you. You don't have the quantitative chops. On that point alone, all the top American quantitative Master's programs are out. You could look at the Duke MMS or any of the top MSF programs (Villanova, Vandy, WUSTL, etc.), but those don't have a history of placing exceptionally well (candidates with a competitive pre-Master's background do relatively well, but the program itself isn't a magic bullet).

There are all kinds of programs in economics or management elsewhere (Columbia, Penn, etc.), but they won't exactly solve your problem of having no quantitative background. I've seen M.A. in Economics graduates take analyst roles at banks, but it's very infrequent.

Given this, I highly recommend you look abroad. Cambridge and LSE ought to be your targets. LSE is getting a bit of a reputation as a 'degree factory' in that they keep launching new Master's programs, accepting more and more students into them, and churning out alumni at an increasing rate, but they are still well regarded globally. Case in point: look at how many different MSc Finance programs alone they offer: Finance, Finance and Private Equity, Finance and Economics, Risk and Finance .... on top of the MSc programs in Accounting and Finance, Management/Organizations/Governance, MISI, etc.

Cambridge would love you for the MPhil in Management. That's a program exclusively for people who have not studied undergraduate business, and they're grade/brand name whores. An Ivy 3.9 with a slew of academic awards, some hearty recommendations, and a strong personal statement would be a very competitive profile. If you can spin your story well enough as outlined above, you might even be given serious consideration if you applied for the Gates Cambridge Scholarship.

If you decided you weren't necessarily interested in finance and didn't want the Management program, they have a number of other programs that recruit well for consulting and other big-business gigs. The Land Economy program recruits very well into the City; I don't know how it may translate for recruiting here in the U.S., but I imagine any resume with a 3.9 from Penn and MPhil from Cambridge would get a great look. They offer all kinds of programs that combine economics, history, political science, and management/governance in some fashion or another, look at their graduate programs page for a comprehensive overview.

The added benefit of a Master's degree is that you can get an internship before the program. Someone in their senior year (or even a recent grad like you) who is entering a Master's program the following academic year qualifies for all the BB, boutique, and MBB internship programs. The majority of Cambridge's programs start in October, meaning your timeline could look like: - write an application for a Fall 2014 intake at your target Master's programs (now) - begin reaching out to alumni and strengthening your network (now and ongoing) - recruit for an internship via either the accelerated process or OCR (now-February) - find out where you get accepted for Master's programs (February-April) - do your summer analyst/summer consulting internship (June-August) - take a short off-cycle internship somewhere in finance [probably buy-side] (August-October) - enter your Master's program (October-June 2015) - recruit for a job if you don't get the return offer or want something better (during school)

I've seen all kinds of ad-hoc internships for people in unique situations before or during grad school. I met someone currently completing a Stanford JD/MBA who did 2 years of Big-4 work after undergrad, had three short internships from June-September before entering grad school at buy-side names people would kill to be at, and then began doing the standard summer associate internships once in school (names like Wachtell, MF PE, and GS).

Forget listing options; you really need to fundamentally shift your perspective. Stop thinking of your circumstances as liabilities and start figuring out how to spin them as advantages. Perception drives reality. If you can sell someone on some powerful, cogent reason as to why you have a nontraditional story (gap year in the middle of school, one semester off, a ninth semester to extend graduation, a gap year after school, etc.), you can literally do anything you want. I started from at the bottom of the heap. Literally have one of those tragic childhood stories, "bootstrapped his own way through it all" backgrounds, and the only reason why is because I refused to let any setback derail me and mastered the art of delivering my story in a compelling fashion for any role I wanted. I get all these PMs asking how I know so much about certain banks or programs -- I found a way to get into each of them. I identified what I wanted, the best way to get there given my current position, and worked tirelessly.

I'm not alone in thinking like this. I have a friend who spent something like 7 years before finishing undergrad (HYPS). He spent time at extended internships or full-time jobs all over the place (BB, Big-4, Google/Amazon/MSFT, MBB, event planning, research institute, think tank, UN) and literally sold his story wherever he went. He got into the best JD/MBA program and deferred attendance for awhile -- the guy crushes everything.

You can too. Figure out what exactly it is you want, assess your current position, and start moving. There are so many resources available for free: the Internet (all kinds of free info on awesome things or places to do and go), application guides from the very schools I've listed, alumni and friends from Penn who will gladly talk to you, alumni from the programs you'd like to apply to who will gladly talk to you, forums like these where people will share their insight ... go out and grab it.

You got this.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

APAE - seriously amazing post. thank you for the advice. definitely motivates me to start working hard towards my goals.

also just wondering would getting a Masters in Management preclude me from investment banking? Just want to keep my options open.

 

No, it wouldn't preclude you, but like I said, the MiM programs typically aren't enough to plaster over your problems and get you the job you should've gotten out of undergrad.

A top MBA is the most traditional 'reset' button for your career. Failing that, you need to start gaining relevant work experience so you can enter an MSF, MMS, or other Master's program without having a blank resume. An MiM would likely be more fitting for consulting.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

I know a guy who got his JD and worked for a small practice. Wanted to work in finance so he got an MsF and was hired as an investment associate in PE since he was able to remove the firms need for third party counsel on the majority of what they did.

 

I've received a lot of messages regarding what ended up happening and just to prove that you really have to take the advice of some posters on this site with a grain of salt - i am typing this very post in a bulge bracket bank right now. so it is definitely possible even with a "useless" major and no prior internships in undergrad and i'm really thankful i chose this path even though banking has its downsides. thanks again to APAE for his amazing advice!!!

 

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I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.

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