Rejected for first round OCR - Now what?
Now that some of us (at least me) have heard back about being invited for a first round interview with OCR, what happens if we're rejected?
Can we still try and network a later interview off campus/first round over the phone with alumni or someone?
I ask the above because I know summer analyst recruiting really spans between Jan-early March, and with multiple super days I find it hard to believe that if your not invited to one single first round the game with you and that firm is over..unless I'm wrong?
Happens all the time. Suck it up, don't dwell on it, and move on to the next firm
You can apply online and try and go through alumni and your network, but in all honesty, it's probably over at that firm. Like the above poster said, it happens. I'm in SA recruiting now and I got an interview with one of the best firms/groups that posted on our OCR but got didn't even get an interview with the firm I considered to be my safety, don't dwell just keep chugging.
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Alumni networks works magic. I barely did OCR - did fine
Didn't land any BB OCR interviews at all (Originally Posted: 01/31/2012)
Sorry to hear man. MM / regional firms are out because they won't be able to sponsor your visa, am I correct? Wish I could help, sounds like you did pretty much everything you could have and the luck just wasn't on your side.
Unfortunately this market is just that bad. Is there any way you could apply to positions in your home country and go home for the summer? Just thinking if you lived near a large international city might have the opportunity to gain some relevant experience. Keep your head up.
Sorry to hear. A bunch of my buddies with great backgrounds are getting killed too. Not a good environment to be looking for finance gigs.
I have heard that a lot of banks dont like to deal with visa sponsorship and that might have limited your chances. I agree with above that finding something in your home country could be easiest route for right now. Find some finance work that can counter the "interesting" job you had last summer.
Sorry to hear about your bad luck, man. One thing: bitching about the 3.3 Econ guy who got the hookup isn't going to make an interview land on your lap and chances are if he didn't interview you still wouldn't have been picked. I know it sucks but that's the world we live in: some people have the breaks. Can't change it, so no use in bitching.
I also know you go to Northwestern, no way would a UChicago SCIENCE major come here and bitch about getting beat out by a "frat bro". ;)
Keep your head up though. Look for something in your home region/country. It doesn't have to be IBD/consulting, just something relevant that you would be able to talk about in an interview setting. It's never too late to break in.
To compensate, you have to really network, and I don't mean info sessions.
OP how exactly have you been networking? I suspect there might be something wrong with your method. You should be setting up informational interviews and then following up every now and then, but especially after the resume drop. When I went through FT recruiting, the vast majority of banks that I networked with wound up giving me interviews, and to be quite honest, my internship experience, GPA, and EC's were nowhere near stellar.
^ Agreed with SECfinance. I've had to learn the hard way not to bitch and compare myself to others. It is what it is; don't throw salt on another person's game.
I'm in the same position as you (sans the Visa situation). Worst comes to worst, I'll do an unpaid summer internship, which will eat up a lot of my non-existent $.
I am a 3.3 econ frat bro and I have no idea why you think it is easier to land interviews with that background. I have actually found it to be significantly more difficult. I think there are like 2 guys from my frat who I've ever met who work in banking and the upper-middle class background that most frat guys come from doesn't spawn limitless connections.
Should've gone to Columbia, bro.
Obviously, I kid. Serious advice: 1. look for opportunities for this summer in your country 2. delay graduation by a year 3. prep like crazy for SA 2014 4. ??? 5. PROFIT
you and your hard-on for columbia.
Also, nobody reads cover letters.
^^^ OP probably overestimated the value of majoring in a hard science degree, and didn't network as much as he should, especially considering you need visa sponsorship during this extremely tough recruiting season.
You can major in physics/math/EE. It only proves you are smart enough to do the job. As you probably already know, you don't need to be smart to be in IBD. You can train a monkey to do the work. It's more about attitude, personality and communication skills.
What can you do now? 1) extend graduation date by a semester or go for 1-2 year master program in Finance for new recruiting. 2) Given you are from a hard science background and you didn't have an IBD internship before, I have doubts that you will like the work. I had such an internship awhile ago and I felt my brain was atrophying from preparing pitchbooks. Anyway, maybe you want to look into trading, research, structuring, or risk. 3) Apply a finance job at your home country, especially if it is Asia Pacific (including Australia). It would be easier, you would have an advantage to compete (language, sub-culture, & family connection). I would assume your family is reasonably resourceful, since studying in US for foreigners isn't cheap. Maybe you can expand your family business or start your own business. Pull your head out of the sand, and look around. No need to pick up nickles in the US, when you have far more growth and opportunities at home. From personal experience, ROI of a lot of projects in those developing countries would blow your hair back, when you see the numbers and if you can get a piece of that.
Anyway, stop whining, be positive, be open-minded, look for your edge and get rich... who cares if you made your first 100 million from selling ice to Eskimos, prop trading, or doing M&A
I felt bad for you until you started whining and pulled the 3.3 Econ example out of your ass. Which is basically saying that everyone who made it here is a retard with connections and all of the "legit" candidates like yourself were pushed out. Blame yourself.
Exactly. If you do not see where you can improve then you need not ask.
oh dear, sorry to hear that. though i applaud 3.3 frat guys for maintaining 3.3.
3.3 is considered really good in Canada in some of the universities that grade deflate.
A. If only 1 interview you got was along the lines of something you don't want to do, you need money and you need a job. You should have rocked this interview, especially since it was your only one of the semester/year and most likely your only shot of obtaining a job. No sympathy. Job doing something you don't want to do that pays well> always better than no job, always!
B. Do better man. Either your GPA isn't good enough, your EC's aren't good enough, your past work exp. isn't good enough or a combination of everything plus a weak hiring environment. Leverage what your good at, don't complain, and bust your butt to get something
Hey sorry to hear my friend.
Being international is probably one of the worst things to deal with when job hunting - no matter how good your gpa/credentials are. . When I was undergrad i also landed ZERO interviews through junior year (with a 3.9 gpa and great extracurriculars and all) until i got a green card - then i got 30 - 40 interviews senior yr.
i would suggest the same as above - look for opportunities in home country. thats what i did my sophomore yr - landed a consulting internship at a boutique firm back in my home country. hopefully you are not graduating yet and maybe you can do a couple of internships at home. I delayed graduation by 6 months just so i could get an internship on the resume when applying for FT positions.
good luck.
Non finance internship is a red flag IMO
I am curious what a "Hard Science" is too. Physics is completely different than Biology and Geology, yet they are both considered "Hard Sciences"
These are my thoughts:
Resume formatting --- I've spoken with all sorts of people who work in the industry and they constantly suggested I beef up my resume with more in detail information (requiring smaller font or widening the page extensively). At first i took this advice, seeing as these guys nailed things, but I asked my girlfriend (doesn't work in finance) to quickly glimpse at my prior one and these more detailed ones and she immediately said she liked mine better.
long story short -- be descriptive but do so with as few words as possible -- your resume is a banner and needs to stand out ultimately amongst the other 100's HR gets.
EC: do not underestimate the bottom of your resume -- what you do for fun matters. Make sure it isn't something generic but rather something that would make you remember someone after reading their resume.
The international thing I'm not too knowledgeable about but I'd assume getting that taken care of is a MUST -- the easier you are to hire, the more they'll probably like you, no?
Lastly, reach out to people on Linkedin and BUILD a RELATIONSHIP. I found that when I started actually making friends with these guys things became much more natural and an advice giver ultimately became a pusher.
This being said, I've yet to get any offers but I've been invited to a decent amount of interviews. Don't let things get down and just keep pushing!
Yeah I know connections is how the world goes and I'm trying to not let it deter me.
When I say I networked - I picked up the phone and cold call alums and spoke to them. i had really good relations with a lot of them but nothing transpired as a result.
I know where I need to work on. My work experience had no finance shit on there and my resume didn't scream finance which was a big red flag - that said I did have a couple of accounting courses and Training the Street on there.
Just looking for any more suggestion for FT recruiting, I guess.
Lack of connections is not your problem (well, it's a problem but not the most glaring one). Stop blaming it on that. You just made poor choices if your goal was Finance. Your profile definitely does not demonstrate an interest in that career path.
This is your problem. Like someone else pointed out, you're studying a hard science, unrelated to Finance, at one of the top Universities known for cranking out hard science academics. Your opportunity to demonstrate a real interest in a Finance career despite the educational track (the internship) was wasted on something unrelated to Finance. Seriously, what did you expect? You have only yourself and your choices to blame; don't pin it on some nebulous elitist frat boy network that you've made up in your head.
That's their cue to ask for your resume, which they push through to HR with a referral.
If you want a good gig, you will have to delay graduation. But make use of the time. Start the Kellogg certificate, an economics minor, and a finance internship before you go back into summer analyst recruiting.
Btw, this only confirms what I said in another thread -- economics = engineering when it comes to IB recruiting. You don't get cut slack just for being an engineering major. In fact, in some cases, there is bias against the engineering majors because they often tend to be less social than business and liberal arts majors.
Also, Gekkothegreat, fantastic post. +1
I agree with your assessment that he goes to NW though. I don't know how the internship/OCR process works there, but at UChicago, most internships are covered by the Metcalf program (i.e. subsidized by the University), so internationals have fewer barriers in place with regard to landing an internship in the US.
EDIT: I've been assuming OP is applying for SA. Are you doing SA or FT recruiting, OP?
Don't really have anything to add but feel your pain. 3.5 econ at ivy and dinged everywhere save for one PWM interview.
It really comes down to relevant work experience as my friends who have had finance related internships did pretty well
Holy shit, this is brutal. Did you apply for IBD jobs? How about consulting? You didn't land any interviews?
Do you have any evidence these jobs are going to lower-tier candidates, such as the 3.3 gpa econ major? Or is that just a defensive mechanism to try to prove to us that you are indeed the superior candidate, even though none of the banks agreed?
What is your level of proficiency in English? I noticed your improper usage of it's (vs its) but the rest of the post seemed fine.
I'm guessing the problem was networking. I think the focus on the 3.7 hard sciences may have distracted you from the job hunt, but obviously that is just a guess.
I'm also guessing you crashed and burned in that prop trading interview. Why would you have even applied if you aren't interested? By this point you should have a better appreciation for what it takes to land a job on the Street. Beggars can't be choosers. You should pursue that opportunity with all your might, if the door is still open.
I'm guessing he applied because even though its not IBD, at least its in finance so it's somewhat of a step in the right direction.
double post
First some background: international, graduated in 2010, 3.6 GPA finance major, good student org involvement, relevant summer internship experience in home country, 0 in the US, networked hard, 100 job applications sent out from January to September of senior year, had a month left to stay in the US, clinched an internship with a mm ib boutique, worked my ass off, got hired full-time 6 months later and also got sponsored for a visa. To say it can't be done ... would be a false statement!
Take-aways for you, OP: 3.7 hard sciences GPA means jack shit today, as the frat-bro you know clearly illustrated (I'm a frat bro myself), networking is a lot more important than you initially thought, and it's not too late to start doing it right (LinkedIn, career fairs, info sessions, trips on your own dime to NYC or wherever you have contacts, alumni, etc) Have a story to tell, that is concise, unique (which it is, bc you have an international background and experience), and that clearly demonstrates why you want to go into IB, consulting, corp. fin., etc. You have exactly 3 months of school left, assuming you're a senior, +3 mos for OPT, that's roughly 6 months... if you start applying in a non-traditional off-cycle way in May + networking your balls off, following-up with calls and emails consistently and diligently, you'll be much better positioned for an interview and offer. Don't give up and definitely don't surrender until they put your ass on a plane and send you back home! Good luck, have fun.
Your profile and stats are fine. Network harder. The end.
^^ FT recruiting sucks at even Harvard. If you luck out on SA, you'll have extremely limited options.
Damn. I know that FT recruiting sucks for IBD, but how about consulting or trading recruiting for FT?
Does missing out on SA recruiting mean kiss of death in this economy?
if you strike out at IBD and top consulting, what would you do after college? MSF? law school? or work in other random jobs?
for me - I totally struck out at IBD recruiting, but managed to get few offers in boutique consulting. a lot of people i know who graduated last year are still unemployed, though.
lol @ enrique freaking out when dude said in his first post that experience is what fucked him. no one without internships is going to get a job in this economy; even ivy league dudes. i don't see what's so hard to understand about that.
i know quite a few people without any finance or consulting internship experience (they had random volunteer exp at some shitty companies or non profit) who got decent jobs, including F500 corp finance, BB sales, Consulting (deloitte, accenture, ibm, etc), and big4 accounting.
that being said, i do think having no finance internship experience = kiss of death for IBD and Trading recruiting.
agreed
you morons are overcomplicating this. this is what goes through a hiring manager's head: "X is the best candidate we have. why should i take Y over X. hmm, there is no reason. into the round file."
OP, you are Y. that's why you didn't get the job.
it's usually analysts, not 'hiring managers', that screen resume and decide who will get interviews.
Buddy you probably got fucked because you're international. Your best bet was to shoot for foreign banks.
True story: I have a buddy from Princeton (graduated with 2.9 in Econ) who got rejected from his job application to Barnes and Noble (as a store librarian or something)
They told him that he 'lacked' experience relevant to the job he applied, so he didn't even get the interview, despite the fact that he was from Princeton.
In short - job market is really fucked up.
was it the analyst or the hiring manager who made that call?
This is insane. I have high school friends that work at Lenscrafters, Target and Chase in Retail sections. They all graduated from Big 10 schools and I just thought they were lazy. This economy is so f'd
the fucking sense of entitlement on this thing, i swear to fucking god. ok boys, make a sticky of this: it doesn't matter how good YOU think your resume is. at this point, what you think doesn't FUCKING MATTER. the job pipeline is shrinking and it is a fucking buyer's market for monkey labor right now. we went through 400 resumes before our last hire. MIT Ph.D. in string theory, Cambridge math tripos, with good people skills -- yeah, you go and try to top that. if you look at some of the guys who are #2,3 on the list you'd be rightfully discouraged.
hahaha, so true. Honestly, the rejections are doing some of them a favor. Remember in the late 90's, tons of people were trying to be a CS major. The trend lasted until 2004. 4 years after the bubble busted. Where does that trend started? It's the people who were born around 1955. Bill Gates: October 28; 1955, Paul Allen: January 21, 1953; Steve Ballmer: March 24; 1956, Steve Jobs: February 24, 1955; Eric Schmidt: April 27, 1955; Bill Joy: November 8, 1954; Leonard Bosack (1952) & Sandy Lerner (1955)... The ballers for that game got out of college late 1970's... Sure, then there are exceptions like Jeff Bezos (1964), Michael Dell (1965) or Zuckerberg...
My point? Too late for the game. It's getting to way too tough to enter the field. Competition is fierce. People are brilliant. People from MIT, Cambridge, Harvard with PhD in math, physics and good communication skills are competing for the same job, along with those ex-banker who are fired and trying to get back into this game. Your edge? Almost NONE... melvvvar is waking you guys up. Just imagine in Vegas, if you are a counter, or a decent poker player, you will almost never play Russian roulette (unless you just want some fun and don't really care about losing some money, but then you are not really a gambler, you are a fucking tourist.) I can't stress that enough, if you want to make it in life, you need to find your edge... Some of you may want to be a millionaire by play Russian roulette. That's fine. To me, it's just bad business. On the other hand, maybe you are lucky... ;)
Just my $0.02... I am not here to discourage you to do what you love. Just want to you to notice, you are probably playing a bad game. And sometimes it's good if you just gotta pull your head out of the sand and take a look around.
hahaha, melvvvar killing it in this thread
the only princeton kid i knew who became an accountant had a 2.0 and was suspended for a year for cheating.
times have changed, bro. gone are the days Ivy kids with 3.3 gpa in humanities could get I-banking gigs left and right.
Nowadays, if you have sup 3.5 gpa in non-quant major at Ivies, there is a very good chance you will get fucked after graduation job-wise.
being an accountant is, for sure, better than being unemployed, working at Barnes & Noble, or selling insurance at some shit companies.
how would being an international student affect your chances of being selected for interviews? i'm sure you don't list your country of origin on your resume.. and from what i hear, BBs have no problem getting you a work visa.
BofA, JPM used to be safety banks. even ML was considered a haven for GS rejects.
Thanks for the ideas everyone.
I'm definitely going to follow up with my contacts asap.
With regards to being international, a lot of banks that used to sponsor don't do so anymore. And that applies to every industry it seems.
For me it's BB/boutique or bust since only the best sponsor/offer overseas opportunities. I'm also not from a country with a strong banking/finance industry so going back is not the best option. Not landing a BB SA position really kills that.
I'm planning on possibly working next quarter at a PWM/PE shop in Chicago. I've been in touch with a couple of alums and they've been receptive. Fingers crossed.
Another side question to tack on to everything.
So far I've been networking with pretty much anyone on the totem pole. Given how late it is, should I be focusing on the people at the MD/ED-level and above. Just wanted to clarify instead of aimlessly networking.
Hey,
I'm kind of in a similar situation myself. I suggest that you go to your international student office first and find out the details of OPT. It allows 3 months of unemployment, but if you can get SOMETHING, it's 12 months, during which companies DON'T need to deal with your sponsorship issue. I've run into problems with smaller firms not being able to sponsor me, and I didn't know the details at the time so I wasn't able to make this kind of proposition but you should - just tell them, hey i have 12 months where you don't need to sponsor me, hire me now and decide whether or not you want that trouble later.
Aside from that, I'm surprised you only applied to jobs for OCR. You should've (and still can) apply for a bunch of other opportunities, which is what I've been doing (and I got a bunch of interviews, granted it was partially b/c of my BB internship...). There's still firms hiring out there.
Lastly, like everyone else mentioned, please don't whine about other people with connections. I'm international and my family isn't in finance; my sorority isn't Theta or Kappa, and it doesn't help one bit with connections. I've constantly reached out to alumni though - at least 20 people have passed on my resume for me, and last year for summer internships, I've gotten 5 more interviews partially because I knew people.
Anyway, take this with a grain of salt. You could always argue that since I don't have a job yet, I'm in no position to give any advice, but hopefully this will help you stay positive. It's tough to not be anxious about your future when you've been in this kind of uncertainty for months, but at some point you just get over it and you'll be able to find some calmness/inner peace...
I read up until sorority...
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Apply to Capital 1. They jizz over science majors and make veryyy decent money- especially considering its a 9-5.
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