My 10k bonus ended up only being 5600. This is harsh. I figured it would be 6k atleast. Did anyone get taxed this much? Can anyone explain to me why its so high? I know its because its a lump sum bonus. but any other reason?
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your bonus is only 10k? how and why?
that was his signing bonus. not his real bonus. don't worry.
Was it a signing bonus?
10k is a decent chunk of change. don't forget that.
It absolutely is. Its also so easy to lose perspective in this business. It amazes me that I would actually be let down by a $60k bonus (first year analyst). Yet I know that in almost all other industries, people would be elated to earn that for an entire year during the first year out of school.
Not that I'm complaining, just amazing how quickly one can lose any sense of perspective.
yeah it's coming to be that time of year for you guys huh? you guys definitely had it good. there were ppl who got a 10k bonus as 1st yr analysts that i know. this was years ago though.
The $10k is treated as if you earn that amount every bi-monthly period, so it gets taxed at nearly the max rate. You'll get a good chunk of the tax back next April, especially since you'll only be working half a tax year with no other bonus.
that was my relo/signing bonus. not year end bonus...sorry for not being clear.
and yes, the 10k signing bonus is alot, but so its a 44% tax rate! and its a shitload to move into an apartment. especially if you use a broker, which i did. also have to buy a bed, furniture, etc.
that money needs to go far and 5600 is just barely enough to cover rent/security/broker fees
sleep on the floor til you get your first paycheck (or an aerobed)
to another point...i know it's tough for those of you coming from middle class backgrounds. but guess what? you're poor now. until you actually earn those big ole bonuses, live on a budget.
You get some of that back when you file your tax return. It was taxed at the highest bracket, which you likely are not in as an analyst.
You don't get that much back...
Yeah, it sucks to give virtually half (it will be half once you start working full-time) of your money to the government, so they can siphon it off to the people who are too lazy or stupid to work (or a wide variety of other projects). That's why you should be voting Republican. Just as an example, Edwards and the other dems running are looking to pay for "healthcare for everyone" by repealing the tax cuts Bush gave to highest tax class. I know there are plenty of other issues to consider when voting, but it's just so frustrating to pay half the money you earn to the government. Some day, I'm going to renounce my citizenship and move to some little island somewhere...
Assuming you didn't work the first half of the year, you should get a fairly decent refund after your first year (meaning $500-$1000) since you won't get year end bonus that year. However, for NYC you have Federal, State, Local, and Social Security/Medicare. Depending on your exact situation, those should add up to a margina rate that is greater than 30%, but 44% is pretty high no matter what.
For voting, I always vote for whoever promises the lowest taxes first. I figure I can always spend the money I save on charity or something if I actually cared about any of the other programs.
Yeah, that's exactly how I feel actually. I'd rather decide personally how to give my money out for bettering the community, and I kind of feel like since I made the money in the first place, I should be able to!
good for you dav3100. how much do you give to charity each year?
Do I sense some sarcasm there? Well, every summer I've worked (I am currently a senior in college..will be working in banking at a BB in NYC next year), I've given 1% of whatever I've made to charitites that I care about - I usually give it all to cancer research. If I didn't pay so much in taxes, I'd certainly give some of the extra money I'd take home to charity as well (to those charities I care about - I would not give money to welfare but rather to programs that help train unemployed people for job interviews, etc.).
i'm all for lower taxes and i give money to charity. i was curious as to how much you did.
so, since you were in college, is it safe to assume that you gave about 40 a year for charities? Solid... and yeas I am being sarcastic. I donate more than that after 5 visits to church and I come from a lower middle class family. If all charitable people donate as much as you do when taxes are eliminated, then this country will be the most marginalized country in the world.
And I have a huge problem with rich people bitching about taxes. Most of you are never going to serve in the military, or anything, so the least you can do for your country is share a portion of your income with it. So, unless you are an ex-member of the military or planning on serving, STFU and pay your taxes. Freedom isn't free.
Salam, pat on the back for being a good human being. I think you miss the point, though. It is true that freedom is not free. But freedom also means having CHOICES. Like the choice of who you want to donate your money to. I don't think that even you could deny that it knocks the wind out of you to see 40% of your earnings missing at the end of the year. And we don't even get nearly the same social benfits that taxes pay for like in other countries. Again...Choices.
High taxes and free social programs are not the answer. I know this guys from Bulgaria (a places where taxes are high and health care is free) who was born with an eye that oozes green stuff and a huge scar from a routine vacination because the hospital was socialist quality. He also told me that once he was hurt and had to go to three different hospital in three different parts of town because the hospital were not equipped to treat him.
And P.S. there are other ways of serving you country other than joining the military.
No, it was about $200 last year and $100 every other year. I think 1% is a completely acceptable amount. As a banking analyst making (let's just say) $140,000 next year, I'd give $1400 - certainly not a paltry sum of money in my opinion.
You did miss the point though. It's about having the choice of which charity I want to give my money too. As for socialism - who cares? Those countries don't have great benefits at all. Just look at healthcare even in a modern country like the UK - anyone who can possibly afford it uses the private system. If you want an operation in the UK, you'll have to wait forever and get poor quality unless you go through the private system. And the UK is much better than other countries in this regard (like Bulgaria, etc.).
if you want lower taxes...don't vote Republican...vote Libertarian. Or better yet, vote for your friendly local anarchist. Let your voice be heard!
what i don't get is that with a 44% bracket for the ballers, and about 8% sales tax, with all the other city and state taxes, how do we NOT have all those socialized programs they have in Europe, where people pay half their income in taxes? Don't make me out to be a socialist, i am extremely Libertarian, but I feel like we should have one or the other, high taxes and good benefits, or low taxes and rely on charity, not a mix in the middle that isn't good for anyone except the government. Oh and Salam, I was in the military so is my opinion valid now?
Dude, you have no idea how high taxes in Europe really are. I've worked in Belgium for a year in between two years of undergrad. The average cash gap between what an employer pays and what an employee receives after taxes, social contributions,etc. there is 52%. And that is average, i.e. it includes part-time factory workers who make EUR 20,000. For people earning EUR 150,000+ there, the tax gap is more like 70%. And VAT/sales tax there is 21% on most products. And this is not unique: France & Netherlands, Germany are about the same, Scandinavia is even worse. UK is probably bit better.
We have it good in the US in terms of taxes.
It's because the schmucks in elected offices as well as the General Accounting Office can't balance a goddamn budget....or don't know the definition of "fiscal responsibility." And because we keep giving them money. If we stopped, they HAVE to cut government waste.
vote republicans to waste another billions in iraq?
Seriously though, all of government (republican, democrat, independent, etc.) is great at wasting money. At least the republicans want to cut taxes (and especially for people in the 200k+ range) whereas the democrats want to tax the hell out of the 200k+ range. While a democrat government would likely not have wasted so much money in Iraq, it's not like they would have used the saved money to cut taxes - they just would have spent it on something else.
Dav3100 have you ever talked to anyone from the UK about the health care system?I don't think you have because I have talked to close to a hundred who have hardly had one bad thing to say about it, the only place you will hear otherwise is on conservative news sites who want you to believe that the health care is terrible.
Some of you guys are really fucking selfish, you obviously have never been poor so you really don't give a shit about someone who can't afford to go to the doctor or pay their rent. I know that you tell yourself that everyone on welfare is cheating the government and they don't need it but I assure you that that is NOT true.
keep whining about how you only made 90k this year after taxes while all of your friends didn't make half that. It's really sad how ungrateful people are for what they have in this country.
Yeah, I actually used to live there (in middle school). Healthcare in the UK is alright if you need something simple done, but if you have cancer, need an organ transplant, or a major operation, you will have to wait a while on the public system and often get sub-par care.
"No, it was about $200 last year and $100 every other year. I think 1% is a completely acceptable amount. As a banking analyst making (let's just say) $140,000 next year, I'd give $1400 - certainly not a paltry sum of money in my opinion."
1400 is a lot of money and you should be commended for giving anything. many don't. but some measure of government is certainly needed and i'm fine with paying 'high taxes' provided they aren't dramtically wasted. I do think some kind of flat tax or national sales tax would be better, and for the record, i give 10% of my net income to charity.
the uk system is also under strain b/c it's set up to handle an assumed 1 or 2 children per family...immigration, especially from arab countries is high into england, and the immigrants often have 3,4,5,6 kids so the system is straining
If you're first year, deduct a semester of tuition off the federal income. You get an education credit of up to $2000. That'll get a good chunk of it back.
Maybe you are missing the point of the NHS. The thinking behind it is that such a system doesn't let the poor old man die because he doesn't have health insurance. If you want to get service faster then you get private cover (which incidently most good firms will give you anyhow). I'm not a socialist at all, however if there is one thing that I don't think should have a value, it's life.
Scandinavian countries also tend to have the highest standards of living, so yeah...
Actually, your bonus was withheld at that percentage, not taxed at it. I encourage you, as a new banker, to be precise in your language.
youre criticizing me for not using "precise" language? get off it buddy. on the bonus check it said "Taxes 4,400" - witheld, taxed - who gives a flying fuck. i hate picky uptight fucks like you.
IronBanker, I'm going to overlook your little rant for the moment, since a written message on a bulletin board is one of the more difficult mediums in which to convey tone. I'm trying to help you out here, but of course you may choose to take my advice in any way you'd like.
I have a good degree of respect for some of the people you may end up working for, but you should not mistake the fact that working for a MM firm will subject you to substantially less shit than what a "picky uptight fuck" like me will put you through. And yes, I am a picky uptight fuck, no quotation marks required. If you knew me, you'd choose your words a little more carefully I'd think.
Nonetheless, Wall Street is a pretty small place, which you will soon find out. And what I can tell you is this: you may not yet know who you're going to work for yet, but whether you stand in front of Marshall, Peter, Bruce, Mark, Michael, Brian or Bill, none of your potential group heads are going to look favorably on you dismissing one of your senior bankers telling you that you need to be precise in this business.
As I said, tone is difficult with the written word. Take this as friendly advice.
So you're saying that you didn't have to pay 40% of your income in taxes you'd maybe chip in an extra 1% or 2% to charity. Yeah, really generous.
listen ghengis khan, I apologize for the harsh remarks. its easy to get hasty on these message boards. thanks for the advice.
however, the parallel between me dismissing your unnecessary advice/criticism about my particular wording on some internet message board and how i will address my superiors on the job is nonexistent.
There is confusion in witholding vs taxes. The amount withheld on a bonus is usually higher than the amount of taxes paid on that bonus unless one takes more exemptions prior to being paid.
Assuming that a person starts in July, is given a 10K bonus and earns 30K for 1/2 year (first year). Also assuming no other income, single and no dependents, taxes paid would be as follows:
Federal 4,451 Social sec 3,060 New York State 1,831 NYC 1,212
Total 10,554 Percentage 26.38%
Any amount in excess (Fed, State, City) would be refunded.
this is an explanation I appreciate. Thank you.
the combination of social security and medicare is 7.2%, right? Can somebody verify this?
Also is that taken off of gross salary? Or is it taken off of the net after federal and state taxes have already been deducted?
7.65% social security and medicare. Taken off gross.
40K*7.65% = $3060.
you only pay soc sec up to a threshold. i think 97k this yr.
Say if you live in NYC and make $300,000 a year, what is the total tax you pay? I only wonder because it seems like such a complicated system.
I'm in Australia and we just have one (albeit high) type of income tax - with a top marginal rate of 46.5%. Just that and local rates (water, electricity etc. - negligible amounts of money).
Oh, and in another gripe on the side, our fucking car tax. We have 3 taxes that apply to good imported cars: Customs duty, goods and services tax and luxury car tax. A base model Lamborghini Gallardo is ~175,000USD in the US, which is ~210,000AUD at the moment. A base model gallardo in Australia costs... wait for it... $400,000AUD. A Z06 corvette is $230,000AUD over here... and like $80,000AUD in the US. Jesus christ.
your tax rate is similar to ours edmunsta. b/c we also have state and potentially city tax on top of federal.
300k spans tax brackets, depends if you're married etc. You'd probably clear 175-ish.
what's a good effective tax rate to assume for the average first year analyst?
Probably about 35% at the minimum....I wouldn't be surprised if that rate was 45%.
I heard you can deduct your rent if you make 40k a year or less in NYC. Is that true? Anyone done it before
what % are bonuses taxed at? (Originally Posted: 02/16/2007)
i've been told 49%. So that turns $80k into just over $40k? That's kind of a let down...
Can anyone tell me if that figure is accurate?
They are TAXED at whatever your marginal tax rate.
What you are really trying to ask is "What are they withheld at" and that depends on how many exemptions you claim, etc..
It depends. Typically it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50%. Bear in mind that this is not that much higher than one's usual tax rate. Most of us first-years bring home around $3200 on monthly pay of $5000.
I'll never forget one of the earlier posts I read here. The cash-happy poster said something along the lines of, "Wow, $130k total comp? I'll spend half of it on a kickass lifestyle and bank the other half. I can save $65k a year!"
I, on the other hand, typically estimate that I'll only bring home 60% of whatever I make on average. That would turn the aforementioned $130k total comp into a bring-home of $78k. I sincerely doubt one can save $65k of that.
Of course, if you don't like this reality, you can always subscribe to the reality of the poster who claimed, a couple of months ago, that we don't actually have to pay taxes because they're unconstitutional and that if you simply refuse to file you'll be fine.
Well, I think many of us wet-behind-the-ears college kids have a little bit of sticker shock at "130k/year." Scratch that, those who have daddy as their expense account might not care. Anyway, they see the # without realizing that their tax bracket is jumping from about 0 to ... 35-40%? It's hilarious to think a bunch of 22 year olds have to start thinking about tax-favored strategies, but tis the nature of us ambitious little pukes.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/11008742/detail.html
Everyone should be able to take home well more than 78K out of 130K. If you do a 2 year program you should be able to put $45K into a 401K, which will not be taxed. Deductions can also be taken for relocation, student loans, etc...and I plan on starting an IRA, which may or may not not help with taxes in the near-term (depending on salary level) but will set me up well in the future.
Why don't you leave the advice to people who know what they are talking about?
Yes, of course I'm taking all the deductions, and I'll be getting a decent sum back shortly. But I'd rather slot that into a 401(k) as you suggest, rather than counting on it to pay bills.
You pay full Social Security / ERISA on them too. So instead of like 7.15%, you pay 14.3% or so.
For 2006, the maximum allowed employee contribution is $15k per year.
In other posts on tax strategies this was discussed in passing.
Bonuses are taxed at your marginal rate. Note that bonuses are usually withheld (tax withholding based on form w-4) at a higher rate. This is why, in many cases, you receive a tax refund at the end of the year. Most bonuses are withheld at 40%. If you tax bill comes to say 30%, you will receive some money back when you file your taxes.
Note that you can adjust your W-4 to reflect your expected income tax obligation at the end of fiscal 2007. This would ensure a disproportionate amount was not withheld from your bonus check. You should do this.
Also, max 401k contribution is $15k for 2006 as previously stated.
In addition, according to the Social Security statement that is sent out every year to SS tax payers:
6.2% of salary up to $97,500 is taxed for SS and 1.45% of your entire salary is taxed for Medicare.
Note this does not double as previously suggested.
Hope this helps.
Bonus - Tax (Originally Posted: 04/11/2007)
I've heard a lot of people mention that you take a lot of allowances on your W-4 so you don't pay too much tax initially, which would net against the tax taken on the bonuses.
My question is... how many allowances do you take?
I have a colleague that takes 7 allowances... I have no idea how he justifies that and how he nets out come tax day, i.e. does he break even, does he owe.
I calc 6 allowances. You can justify it if you can project your tax obligation for FYE 2007. See how much you have already paid in the relocation bonus vs how much you will have to pay in total in tax.
Goal is to not owe the gov any money and have them not owe you anything.
Try the IRS calculator too. Or if you have turbo tax project taxes with a hypothetical salary. Takes like 5-10 min to do.
Giant Tax Argument About Bonuses (Originally Posted: 05/31/2009)
What is the buzz about what street is going to be for 1st year analysts? My buddy at Merrill heard 30-50k. Can anyone confirm?
Ill sell 50 @ ML.
"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
1st year analysts pulling in $30k-$50k seems pretty inflated to me. I'd cut that in half, but that's just one man's estimate.
~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker
Well I know that VPs in London @ ML were getting £200k pre tax.
So for an analyst that should be consistent
I know one top BB getting 20K. Though it varies within industry and group even within the firm
Breaking Bankers http://chasingconsultantsbreakingbankers.blogspot.com/
30-50k sounds inflated given the current market
Agree that 30-50k seems high to me - expectations among the analysts at my bank range from fruit basket on the low end to about 30k on the high end, depending on how optimistic people are.
Rumor I've heard from a couple of friends working at MM banks is about $40k.
I was surprised when I heard the 30-50k range too, but considering the thawing of the high yield markets and all of the resulting business over the past month, I think it is possible.
I'd ballpark it at 20k. Why pay up when you don't have to... any bitching/moaning and the trump card is "at least you have a job." Other than that... we are half way done with the year... how are rumors flying around already? We don't know what the rest of 09 holds in store for us...
Macquarie was about 5k
I would go with 20k +/- 5k
top bucket.. anybody?
What rate are these bonus numbers taxed at?
Bonus is not taxed any differently than your salary. Only difference is....
For 11 months out of the year you're taxed(actually withheld) at, say the 80K and under tax bucket. Your last pay stub includes an extra... say 60K. Sow now, you're in the 140K and under tax bracket (high tax rate), so you not only pay tax on the 60K, but you're also paying tax on the (140 and under tax rate)-(80 and under tax rate).
So... 80K under- 27%, 140K and under 33%.
On your bonus you're paying (33% x 60K) + (6% x 80K) = 24.8K, which makes some people think they their bonus is being taxed at 41.3%, which it is not.
Since after your bonus you fall into a higher tax bracket, the payroll system adjust the tax withheld from your paystub to account for the unpaid tax on the last 11 and a half months worth of salary.
BTW, I made these tax rates/brackets up.
Bonus numbers for FIRST YEARS are paid out in July, I'd guess 20K for IB/research/S&T. 5-10k for Asset Management. Maybe slightly less for some groups, more for others.
i have a few friends at Merrill and they said that they were not getting any bonuses, just a higher base pay. either your friend was lying, was misinformed, or the pay strucuters differ between groups.
analysts at ML did not get a raise in base pay. only VPs and up -- even that varies from group to group.
the "5k" rumor has been floating around here for a while, but i'm hoping it's just a strategy to make us really happy when we get 10-15 since we were expecting lower...
This whole thread is one big rumor. Why don't we just wait a couple of weeks and we should know a lot better what the numbers will be.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/finance/features/n_8453/
[quote=MMmonkey]http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/finance/features/n_8453/[/quote] Thanks for the article. I read about 3/4 of it before realizing that its several years old. However, it does put things into perspective; banking is cyclical. Hopefully the next wave comes soon.
[quote=MMmonkey]http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/finance/features/n_8453/[/quote]
Thats a great article. I remember reading that in print when I was waiting to get a hair cut a looong time ago... its one of the reasons I wanted to get into banking. Just gives you a quick snap shot of the types of lives some of these people live.
Funny thing is, at that time it seemed so absurd I just had to do it. The (seemingly) ridiculous bonuses, lavish lifestyles, etc... Obviously I'm not at the $1-2M comp level, but even still, it doesn't seem like anything so absurd anymore.
Marginal tax rate?? That makes absolutely no sense.
So I'm paying 10% tax up to the first 8K I make, 15% up to the next 32K, 25% on the next 78K, and 28% up to the next 164K?
That would make the effective tax rate for someone making 140K 22.3%.
Its not marginal from what I understand. Its total Year End comp, taxed. Your tax is calculated on a year end basis, not on a pay stub basis. What you're seeing on the pay stub is what is being withheld by your employer and allocated for state and federal tax.
You make 80K base+60K bonus, your tax is 140K x 28%... not (8K x 10%) + (32.5K x 15%) + (78.8K x 25%) + (20.5K x 28).
Those are based off of actual 2008 tax brackets and tax rates for single filers.
The tax rate is neither average nor marginal (incremental). Its black and white. At the end of the year, you made 140K, you fall into the 164K and under tax bracket. Your income isn't waterfalled through each tax bracket to come up with an effective tax rate.
Your employer withholds a portion of your income off your paystub for federal and state tax, and pays it to those parties. The amount withheld is calculated by the payroll company handling your employers payroll services, based on their estimate of your annual income. At the end of the year, when you file taxes you identify what was withheld (from your W2), to the extent that this was/was not accurate you're either given a refund or owe more taxes.
Yep, that's exactly right (except you forgot about social security, state and local taxes). Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Example_of…
You can also search for "marginal" in that article. The reason is actually pretty intuitive--if salaries were taxed the way you suggest, somebody could take home a lot more money if they earned 139,000 instead of 140,000. This wouldn't have good effects for work incentives, etc. So every tax rate is applied to the next dollar of income only.
you, my friend, is totally wrong.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States
and who says you dont need what you learned in intermediate tax accounting??
Marcus is right and STK explained it well too. Your true tax rate isn't determined until year's end because it based on your gross income.
Marcus, I finally understood what you are saying and I have to disagree with you completely.
When it comes to how payroll companies deduct taxes from your paychecks I already described it approximately 10 posts up. Payroll companies use "circular e" tax tables to determine what to deduct for each payroll period, e.g. if you make $20,000 in one payroll period then you will have a lot withheld for taxes from your paycheck (lets say 35%). Now if you make only $1,000 during the following payroll period you will have a lot less withheld from your paycheck (lets say 10%) and it doesn't matter what you made in previous payroll periods.
Now what you owe the IRS at the end of the year is a different story and is based on your adjusted gross income (AGI). If your AGI is $140K then you will not pay 28% on that amount nor will you pay (8K x 10%) + (32.5K x 15%) + (78.8K x 25%) + (20.5K x 28). You will pay (for 2008 tax year):
(8K x 10%) + ((32.5K-8K) x 15%) + ((78.8K-32.5K) x 25%) + ((140K-78.8) x 28%) = $33,178 for an effective tax rate of 23.7%.
Side note: you also have to pay 1.45% medicare (no limit on earnings) and 6.2% social security tax on your first $102,000 earned, and that is another reason why your bonus is taxed at 40%+.
Know whats worse than a trading math nerd?
Tax Accounting math nerds.
"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
Way to totally derail the thread dudes.
This thread was all speculation anyway. Lets start a bonus thread once bonuses are actually paid or at least official.
How do you explain your signing bonus getting taxed at 40% when you really haven't made anything during the year yet.
I already explained it twice in this thread. If you make $10,000 in one payroll period, the tax you pay is equivalent to making $10k*(52/2)= $260,000 a year (assuming you get a paycheck every other week). You pay like 30% federal tax, 7.65% FICA, state tax, local tax and you may end up paying 44%. It will all even out when you do your taxes.
Signing bonus of 10k was taxed at 44% resulting in $5600 take home.
its not that hard people-i thought you guys were supposed to be bright. STK123 said it correctly-i know taxes b/c i interned at a big 4 accounting firm one summer doing them.
if you make 60k bonus you get taxed as if you make 60k*(52/2)=A FUCK LOAD OF MONEY. That is how the taxes are with held HOWEVER when you fill out your tax return you will get the money back b/c you no-longer will get taxed at that marginal tax rate for the 60k
Hypothetically if you are a first year BB S&T analyst, you would make this much money:
10k signing bonus-i received 6,050 60k for the year, after taxes, fica, medical, etc...=35k (you lose roughly 40% if you are NYC)
lets say you get a 60k bonus, you get with held FOR JUST FEDERAL TAXES: (372,000.33%)+[((60k26)-372,000)*.35]
if you need a spreadsheet respond and email me-i made one when trying to figure out my budget for my first year while living in nyc-which actually starts july 6th at a BB in S&T
I believe the way it works is that bonuses are withheld at a 40% rate, and then when you file your taxes, you figure out the correct numbers. It's not nearly as complicated as you guys are making it seem. When you file your returns, they'll be taxed at your marginal rate.
that could be the dumbest thing i have ever heard. The IRS doesn't know that it is your bonus-so how could they tax it at 40%. are you telling me that if you had a 1 million dollar bonus and a 1000 bonus, b/c it is a bonus, you get with held 40% regardless. that is actually retarded. a memo doesn't go to the IRS saying "bonus stub".
I interned at PwC as a tax intern one summer...trust me my way is right.
On a brighter note, what firm are you a trading analyst at (I am one too). Are you just starting or have you a 2nd year analyst
That is false, all supplemental income (not salary) like bonuses is withheld at something like 40%. Which is why my housing bonus as a SA was withheld at 40% even though my actual bracket will be significantly lower. When calculating withholding for salary, that's where you can use the W-4 to approximate your bracket and get a more realistic withholding.
And to be honest, who ever said the tax system isn't dumb? I would never make such a claim, nor would my relatives who work for the IRS.
What you are saying is false. When I was an SA I set my withholding exemptions at 5 and my $2,000 SA housing bonus was taxed at $685 or roughly 34%, while the rest of my SA class had "legitimately" filled out their W-4s and had 1 exemption and had like $820+ or 41%+ withheld from their housing bonus.
Mods, can we rename this post "giant tax argument" since the last post related to 1st year bonus numbers was 25 posts ago...
Haha it worked!
Revsly...you are wrong lol. This has become a joke. Listen to me. First off there is no 41% tax bracket, the highest marginal tax bracket is 35%. So you can stop talking about this 40% withheld bullshit. if you are gonna work at a BB in S&T, or IB, your base salary is gonna be 60k. You are gonna lose, roughly, the amount below. the 21% is not the marginal tax bracket but the average tax bracket b/c your first 33950 get taxed at 15% and the remainder (60k-34k) get taxed at 25%. See below for the tax breakdown-luckily i already did this on excel and saved it.
Gross Biweekly Salary 2,500.00 FICA 8% -200.00 Federal 21% -525.00 NYS 7% -171.25 NYC 4% -87.50 Medical 2% -50.00 Total Net Salary 41% 1,466.25
All bonuses do not get withheld at 40% for a plethora of reasons, one of which is that there is no 40% tax bracket for withholding. They prorate your bonus as if that is what you made all year-it is that simple. My 10k bonus for S&T only gave me $6,050 after the withholding. If you had a 1k signing bonus, you would not lose 40%. I can argue with you all day. I did taxes at PwC last summer before becoming a trader. Furthermore, where i went to college (a school in Pennsylvania-not gonna get into details), a man named Richard Harvey was the tax professor. He was also THE senior tax partner at PwC. He taught me how taxes work. Why is this relevant
"The Internal Revenue Service appointed J. Richard Harvey Jr. as senior advisor to IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman." http://www.webcpa.com/news/28760-1.html
THE GUY WHO TAUGHT ME TAXES IS THE SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE IRS COMMISSIONER. Seeing how he taught the class junior year, and worked with me at PwC last summer, I am going to say that what he taught me is accurate. If that, plus the data i provided above, doesn't trump this argument than I don't know what else to say.
"THE GUY WHO TAUGHT ME TAXES IS THE SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE IRS COMMISSIONER. Seeing how he taught the class junior year, and worked with me at PwC last summer, I am going to say that what he taught me is accurate. If that, plus the data i provided above, doesn't trump this argument than I don't know what else to say."
I guess that he didn't teach you too well then.
Overall, what you are saying is consistent with my posts but: - 33950 is not taxed at 15%, because your first 8350 is taxed at 10% and your next 25600 is taxed at 15% etc.
FICA is 7.65% and not 8%, and that includes 1.45% medicare (but I guess you were rounding). Which leads me to
Medical 2% - don't know what you mean here, but if you are talking about medicare well then that is already included in FICA at 1.45%
Other than that I agree with you.
woops sorry i forgot that step. you do in fact do that you're right.
big unit: if you're right than i am going to be happy
You all gasp in horror at the taught of doing accounting, yet here you are engaging yourselves in a dick swinging contest over impertinent tax details.
who cares about accounting, any more numbers for bonuses? My final answer is 20-30K for all front-office.
Read Circular E Section 7, that's all I'm saying. There are many cases where a flat 25% Federal rate is used. I never said nonsense about a 41% bracket, just that my bonus was withheld TOTAL at 40%... because my company uses the flat rate method.
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
just a good link to settle the tax argument-just found it. does it bother anyone that for a single person, being in the top tax bracket means you make 372,000
Married filing joint is the same exact number. Does that mean that the government believes two people (or more if it is a family) should be able to live off of the same # a single person should be able to live off of?...that is retarded n=in my opinion, anyone else?
Hahahaha
Can someone explain me why a signing bonus check for $10,000 was taxed at 44% - and how much they would expect in a tax return. (This is for one of the two "still employing 1st year analysts" foreign banks, but I assume it would be consistent across all signing bonus checks)
Jackofalltrades- I would like to thank you for making me laugh hysterically. This post deserves to go into the WSO Hall of Fame.
"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
I can't believe you all actually give a shit enough to argue back and forth about this bullshit
WOW. Investment banking bonuses are TINY.
http://morningcereal.wordpress.com/ Morning Cereal.
"Nicely done! On par with LSO,"- Duke University student "Hilarious..!!"- British man
"Relocation" Bonus Tax (Originally Posted: 10/12/2009)
Hey guys,
From those that have already started as analysts, do you remember what the tax rate was on the "relocation" bonuses? I always assumed they were 40% but my buddy just received his and was only taxed 34%. I'm not sure if it makes any difference that he's receiving his payment now, while I don't get mine until my first paycheck.
Not a scrooge, just a broke college student trying to budget accordingly for my year's travel plans. Thanks :).
The sign on was 45% for me and the relocation was 40% ( I don't know why the discrepancy)
oh man that sucks.
For SA mine was flat 40% which is the major witholding method for discretionary income, I assume FT will be the same.
Got to this website and it will tell you what you will get after taxes. It adjusts for fed taxes, state taxes, and any other with holding you want to throw in. Just change the setting to annual payout instead of biweekly or bimonthly or when ever it is you get paid. It worked for my annual bonus, it was a few dollars off, but the discrepancy wasn't enough to to buy lunch with.
Congrats and good luck.
Note: The bonus is the usual $10k
It doesn't really matter the amount btw.
Is there any way to negotiate the timing of the signing bonus? It seems most firms release them around Q1 of the following year, but my firm says within 90 days of the start date.
It'd be nice to have the bonus a little earlier to pay for clothing, apartment rent, and other miscellaneous expenditures...
so the bonus is not grossed up so that you actually see $10k? for SA i got $2k housing after taxes
They will make it very clear if they are grossing it up. Expect to be dinged 40% otherwise.
40% OUCH!
FARTMAN
Any insight as to whether the relocation tax bonus is applied to the state you're moving to or moving from? I'm planning to move from NY to TX (big tax parity between the two states).
state you are moving to most likely, bt this is likely a grey area
50% Tax on Bonuses Over $50,000 (Originally Posted: 01/13/2010)
Wow. Less than 18 hours after I posted the news that Obama is coming after Wall Street, Rep. Peter Welch (D-VT) is introducing a bill to tax Wall Street bonuses over $50,000 at a 50% rate to "fund lending to small business".
The Wall Street Bonus Tax Act (hard to get more direct than that), will apply to banks that received TARP assistance. No big deal, you say, because my bank has already repaid TARP? Sorry, Charlie. The proposed bill applies to TARP recipients, regardless of whether or not they've repaid the assistance.
For those interested in letting the gentleman from Vermont know what they think of the bill, his number is 802-652-2450.
fucking bullshit.
'who came to the american taxpayer with hat in hand' or as actually happened with several of them; forced to come in and accept government money they then repaid with interest.
This had better not pass; and I don't think it will.
Chances of passing? I'd say they're pretty good. Who will stick up for bankers? I'd say it's a waste of political capital to do so, and the change in the marginal rate of tax on bonuses is rather small.
I would say that anyone who's polling badly in their constituency will bum this bill. It's an easy way to score cheap points with poor people.
...fucking poor people.
'lend a hand to small business'....right...
more like use small business as an excuse to further feed the trough at incompetent DC
Fuck these people seriously
"Chances of passing? I'd say they're pretty good. Who will stick up for bankers?"
1) Every single Republican 2) A number of Democrats in swing districts/states
The Senate didn't pass a similar bill 6 months ago when Wall Street anger was at its peak, and midterm elections were further away. They're not going to pass it now.
Anybody who thinks it has a hope in hell just isn't paying attention to US politics. This isn't going anywhere, let alone to the President's desk.
Retarded
Agreed - fuck these people. And why is it always Representatives rather than than Senators? Oh that's right, because all it takes to get elected to the House is a couple flyers and the promise of a new community center in some podunk county, and all of a sudden you're a goddamn expert on Wall Street.
In what world does this make any sense? Say I work as an analyst, and my salary is $70,000, with a bonus of $70,000. So my all in income is $140,000. Half of that gets taxed at 50% (its a Wall Street bonus afterall), and half gets taxed at about 30% (my normal Federal bracket). My effective Federal tax rate is now 40% (a full 10% higher than the programmer making $140k), just because I work on Wall Street.
I say again, fuck these people.
FUCK this tool. It just astounds me how ridiculous all this WALL STREET IS EVIL bullshit is.
Fuck the masses.
would this seemingly put the european banks (CS/DB/UBS) at an advantage, given that their home countries have not announced any bonus tax plans and were not recipients of TARP? Could be an interesting ripple effect of this bill.
"Question, is this 50% tax on top of the normal absurd bonus tax or in place of it? Isn't the current gift/bonus tax already at around 40%~ ? "
No. Bonuses may be withheld at a higher rate, but they are taxed as ordinary income, currently.
Who cares about banker bonuses (jk, I care as capitalist and anti-Obama/socialist regime). Im most worried about my carried interest as the repurcussions ar exponentially more damaging. Its time for a revolution.
This is a crock of shit. Even if its passed, TARP recipient banks will just pay higher bonuses, particularly at junior levels to true-up the gap. If they don't non-TARB IBDs will be pulling in top candidates since the economics of the same exact comp package will be superior at a non-TARP firm.
Guys relax. They just tried a similar "super tax" on bonuses in the UK and my understanding is that the banks just picked up the tab on the extra tax for their employees. I'd imagine the US banks would do something similar.
that's the last straw... I'm moving to London.
Oh wait...
"They just tried a similar "super tax" on bonuses in the UK and my understanding is that the banks just picked up the tab on the extra tax for their employees."
by reducing the bonus pool and passing some of the cost to the shareholders
Not that this will affect me, but I'm curious -- will the entire bonus amount be taxed at 50% or just the marginal above $50,000? (i.e. if you get $70k in bonus, is $50k getting taxed as normal income and $20k at 50% or the full $70k getting taxed at 50%?)
I'd imagine this would make a big difference to analysts and associates.
Did Flathery personally call you and say he will not bring the same plan up North?
Speaking to my friend in Corp Banking at big5 in Toronto the exact same thing is planned here, and delaying bonuses till 2nd year for most analysts is on the table for next year. Bottom line any stupidness by one nation is a precedant. Thanks to stupid UK for getting this ball rolling.
^^^ The whole enchilada. If your bonus is over $50,000, the entire amount gets taxed at 50% under this proposal. It's starting to look inevitable (and I don't think this particular bill will pass, but I guess you never know) that the banks will have to go to an all-salary basis of compensation. It's the only way to prevent populist backlash and regulatory attacks of this nature.
Can the liberal idiot monkeys who love to wax poetic about social justice and "fairness" now wave their tails in self directed unison.
The bill WILL NOT pass, but much like the gay marriage push is a long term plan to destroy marriage.
This bill is the PHYSICAL start of the project to end capitalism, or at least the competitive aspects of it...I kill the heart, but the body we have no problems with.
i definately agree edmundo, that is definately the smarter way to go should this bill pass. but you never know, they might just introduce a special banker tax if we just get rid of bonuses and go to all in comp. taxations with rep somehow seems a lot worse than taxation w/o-> you cant really turn on a "democracy"
Sweet. I hope you clowns get taxed back into the stone age. You picked a job to be a bitch, and now you are a bitch in every possible way. Investment banks are not a market; they are big cartels. You are enemies of capitalism. You choose ibanking because you were too talentless to do anything else. Now after 80 hours a week, squandering your salary by trying to look like a bigshot in New York, and hoping to put that bonus into your savings, you are gonna end up with nothing. I hope this thing gets passed. I say we tax the bankers even higher. Tax them 90% until both the TARP and the stimulus are paid back in full.
LOL stfu and go back to your min wage.
I guess this guy was offended by the gay wedding comment and decided to lash out... get lost 'rapist' wtf kind of name is that anyway?
Did all the recipient banks pay back the TARP?
wow...and they are taxing the banks that PAID TARP BACK WITH INTEREST!!!! The smaller companies like AssFuck Bank of Wilmington are the ones who didn't pay TARP back and probably never will. So retarded. Proves that PoliSci majors with no econ or math in college should not make laws about finance. The people went to non-targets, got mid to low gpas (unlike the people no this board) and didnt major in anything remotely quant! And they expect to be able to regulate one of the most complicated and engrained parts of the American economy?!?!?!?! So stupid...so let's tax them....hmmm remember the 1970s (I wasnt alive but I've read lol). Effective marginal tax rate at 70% brought in less income than Reagan's 35%. Its like our mentality is regressing.
I want a Night Watchmen State!!! Who's with me?
Loved the first few lines!!!
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/contrib.php?ind=F07&cycle=2008
These seem like the "riskiest" payouts. When are people in the industry going to realize that the Democrats will keep pulling this dictatorship of the proletariat shit until financial markets are gone completely?
Found it interesting that 70% of Bain's contributions were to the democrats...
Spiteful bitch.
These proposals are getting utterly ridiculous. The abysmal lack of common sense the masses and political elite display when it comes to finance is rather baffling. While I disagree with the typical Republican on a lot of things, the past year has outed a lot of Democrats as being just as retarded as the guys across the aisle.
Well if everyone's getting it then what do I care....
wow...and they are taxing the new by MMBinNC User's RSS Feed (Gorilla, 559 Banana Points Points) on 1/13/10 at 2:08pm
wow...and they are taxing the banks that PAID TARP BACK WITH INTEREST!!!! The smaller companies like AssFuck Bank of Wilmington are the ones who didn't pay TARP back and probably never will. So retarded. Proves that PoliSci majors with no econ or math in college should not make laws about finance. The people went to non-targets, got mid to low gpas (unlike the people no this board) and didnt major in anything remotely quant! And they expect to be able to regulate one of the most complicated and engrained parts of the American economy?!?!?!?! So stupid...so let's tax them....hmmm remember the 1970s (I wasnt alive but I've read lol). Effective marginal tax rate at 70% brought in less income than Reagan's 35%. Its like our mentality is regressing.
I want a Night Watchmen State!!! Who's with me?
Out of this quote I would like to pull out the following:
So retarded. Proves that PoliSci majors with no econ or math in college should not make laws about finance.
This is a man who understands:)
He's my Congressman...and his people just heard an earful from me.
0% chance that this will pass. Republicans won't vote for it due to their ideology, even the ones swinging populist, and most democrats won't vote for it either as most either 1) have some connection to Wall Street or 2) receive significant political contributions from banks. This is especially true for the Senate. Also the President won't back it.
Its just a move to score easy political points.
just slip your politician some money under the table and we'll be ok
"...and if we had our Vermont bankers in charge of Wall Street, this country wold be a lot better off "
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/us/15tax.html?ref=business
Actually, Obama wants to tax you for the next 10 years.
Individual bonus taxing I don't agree with at all. But I'm not opposed to Obama's tax on institutions who received TARP. If it means paying the taxpayers back what they lost and forever escaping the damning name of TARP then so be it. Execs will complain but they know that its the best option to having the government say 50% on every bonus.
The Vermont bill will burn as it should - its just another politician attempting to make a name and stir the pot. The WH bill will pass and the street will fight at first but eventually they'll cave, pay over the decade and we all can move on. Say what you will, but people are pissed mostly wrongly so but also rightly so. You put yourselves in their shoes losing everything and watching execs walk out with $40 mill after coming to you begging it hurts. I can understand that and anger is the only emotion stronger than fear. Let them feel "even" and move on to doing what Wall Street does best.
50% Bonus Tax Only Sounds Huge (Originally Posted: 02/05/2010)
Aren't bonuses already taxed at 35% (normal income). There def is a big difference between that and 50%, but I guess its not as bad as it sounds at first.
Do I have this right or are bonuses going to be taxed at the corporate level and than taxed again as normal income?
The American Public is so stupid about finance. Why don't they just pass a bill, "Bonuses taxed at 35%". Main Street will be happy. Wall Street will get taxed as always.
First of all, there is a huge difference between 35% and 50%. People are complaining about the less than 5% increases when the Bush tax cuts expire.
However, the 50% bonus tax was actually on top of the existing taxes. That means the tax wasn't 35%, it was 85%. That hurts....
I don't know if you could just add up those numbers to get 85%, but I haven't seen any detailed info on the proposed US tax.
The way that the UK 50% bonus tax worked was that the banks had to pay it (non-deductible expense for tax purposes) on top of the 40% individual tax rate. This did not equate to a 90% effective tax rate, but rather ~60% depending on each individuals situation (this is based on my calculations, which are done properly). E.g. Bank pays out 100K and employee receives 60K after taxes (40% effective tax rate), but with bonus tax bank pays an additional 50K to the govt. (non-deductible). Therefore the bank pays 150K of which 90K goes to the gov't (60% effective tax rate) and 60K to the employee.
And fot those that think that a 50% bonus tax is not a lot:
I know a bank that paid its analysts in London 40% lower stub bonuses than it paid out to their counterparties in NY and HK.
LMAO Democrats are such morons.
I suspect salaries will rise considerably if the bill passes to compensate.
I believe the language in the bill states that the tax is a 1-time tax and it is not intended to wipe out bonuses from here on out.
A lot of the problem with trying to pass legislation around "bonuses" is that a "bonus" is just a term that refers to a portion of an employee's compensation package. If a law was passed that "bonuses" were taxed at 50%, I'd start referring to it as deferred compensation. This cat & mouse game makes it very hard for the government to actually single out the groups that they want to tax at a higher rate. (Note I'm vehemontly against this plan, but this is still the reality of the situation).
London is doing everything it can to push both banks and capital out of the country.
Maybe they want to go back to the gold standard also to top it off?
I wonder which banking center(s) will benefit from firms exiting US & UK? I imagine operations in Singapore and Hong Kong will grow dramatically.
I thought bonuses were taxed at 40% right now...So that means it will go to 50% or 90%?
A "bonus" is just a term. It is taxed like any other piece of ordinary income (such as your salary). Go to the link below to see what the actual tax levels are right now (it depends on your income and not all $s are taxed at the same rate). Also, we're just talking about federal taxes. On top of federal taxes, you have state taxes, social security taxes, and medicare taxes. For most people, these add up to more than 10%. If you're in the top tax bracket (35%), add a conservative 10% for the additional taxes, and you're only keeping 55% of every dollar earned over the $372,950 top tax bracket threshold.. Slap another 50% tax on there and you can see why people may be just a LITTLE upset...
Tax Brackets: http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
Its just double taxation, Salary sacrifice all you can.
Tax Rate on Internship Bonus (Originally Posted: 09/03/2010)
Do any of yall know what % is the tax rate for internship bonuses? I appreciate it.
around 40% for bonuses....capital gains tax...
however since this is an internship...you'll probably get most of your federal back in april...seeing as you won't be making that much money in the span of 10 weeks
Please ignore xB_anni's first comment above, it makes no sense.
Your bonus is taxed at Ordinary Income levels. This is different for each individual depending on how much they earn throughout the year (as well as what state they live in for state taxes). Income is taxed on a calendar year earnings basis. If you haven't earned much income in 2010, which is expected given you're a student, you'll likely receive a substantial portion of it back. Run a search for other bonus tax related conversations, this topic has been discussed in detail.
Note that your bonus may be withheld at a higher rate than your monthly paycheck, but this ultimately doesn't influence the amount of taxes you pay on it.
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