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4/7/13

I'm currently in college and accepted an internship offer a while ago. I got a much better internship offer for my career with a more well known financial services company. I reneged on my previous offer and then the recruiter told my career advisor. Now, the career advisor wants to meet with me. What are the potential/most-common consequences?

Comments (416)

4/7/13

At my school you are generally permanently banned from on-campus recruiting.

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4/7/13

LHDan:
At my school you are generally permanently banned from on-campus recruiting.

Shyt...what kind of school? Public? Ivy? Target?

What if it's an internship you accepted not through the career center, but online resources? I know a guy that reneged on a F100 finance internship that he landed via online application.

4/7/13

DoctorAndre:
LHDan:
At my school you are generally permanently banned from on-campus recruiting.

Shyt...what kind of school? Public? Ivy? Target?

What if it's an internship you accepted not through the career center, but online resources? I know a guy that reneged on a F100 finance internship that he landed via online application.


Public Ivy.

So the offer you reneged was not an offer from on-campus recruiting? That may change things a bit. But, I'm not 100% sure and I've luckily never been through it myself.

4/7/13

^same at my school. Banning from OCR and other services: resume review, mock interviews etc for life.

4/7/13

if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

4/7/13

therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

Can anyone confirm this? I would think they have no way of knowing.
4/7/13

therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.
4/7/13

LHDan:
therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.

There can still be consequences? I don't understand. For returning internship offers, how on earth are you supposed to decide a year in advance you don't want to recruit for other opportunities?

4/7/13

DoctorAndre:
LHDan:
therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.

There can still be consequences? I don't understand. For returning internship offers, how on earth are you supposed to decide a year in advance you don't want to recruit for other opportunities?

You can't. The system is incredibly one-sided and favors the employer.

4/7/13

DoctorAndre:
LHDan:
therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.

There can still be consequences? I don't understand. For returning internship offers, how on earth are you supposed to decide a year in advance you don't want to recruit for other opportunities?

Yes, even reneging on non-OCR offers can get you banned from OCR. For example, my school's (target) policy states that it "reserves the right to deactivate any student for an offense deemed detrimental to the University's relationship with an employer or alumnus/a, or considered against our code of conduct." And a friend was indeed banned from OCR for reneging on a non-OCR internship. (And frankly, people can get banned for much less--say, missing two mock interviews.)

And with regard to the return offer: you're basically making a decision between losing the opportunity to look for better opportunities and not having to worry about ending up with nothing (which does happen). Is it still one-sided? Yes. But it is what it is.

4/8/13

pnb2002:
DoctorAndre:
LHDan:
therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.

There can still be consequences? I don't understand. For returning internship offers, how on earth are you supposed to decide a year in advance you don't want to recruit for other opportunities?

Yes, even reneging on non-OCR offers can get you banned from OCR. For example, my school's (target) policy states that it "reserves the right to deactivate any student for an offense deemed detrimental to the University's relationship with an employer or alumnus/a, or considered against our code of conduct." And a friend was indeed banned from OCR for reneging on a non-OCR internship. (And frankly, people can get banned for much less--say, missing two mock interviews.)

And with regard to the return offer: you're basically making a decision between losing the opportunity to look for better opportunities and not having to worry about ending up with nothing (which does happen). Is it still one-sided? Yes. But it is what it is.

4/7/13

DoctorAndre:
LHDan:
therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.

There can still be consequences? I don't understand. For returning internship offers, how on earth are you supposed to decide a year in advance you don't want to recruit for other opportunities?


That was not in response to your question about return offers.

However, as another poster mentioned, the process is completely one-sided. While career services at some schools try to posture as if they twist a company's arm to help you, they will only marginally do this. They won't hurt a relationship with a firm unless they do something ludicrous and thus most schools that aren't incredibly preftigous don't have a lot of leverage.. The process is one-side and beyond frustrating, but I guess they are just getting you ready for being at the bottom of the totem pole on the job.

4/8/13

LHDan:
DoctorAndre:
LHDan:
therock555:
if you renege on something you landed through OCR, they might ban you. If you found it through other resources (online, networking), there's no reason why you would be banned from OCR

There is a reason, it is just weaker. Schools punish students for reneging on an offer because they believe it makes the school look bad. This can happen whether the offer was through OCR or not. However, there is a chance the school will go lighter if you renege on a non-OCR position because it is likely that the school does not have a preexisting relationship they are trying to maintain with that company.

There can still be consequences? I don't understand. For returning internship offers, how on earth are you supposed to decide a year in advance you don't want to recruit for other opportunities?


That was not in response to your question about return offers.

However, as another poster mentioned, the process is completely one-sided. While career services at some schools try to posture as if they twist a company's arm to help you, they will only marginally do this. They won't hurt a relationship with a firm unless they do something ludicrous and thus most schools that aren't incredibly preftigous don't have a lot of leverage.. The process is one-side and beyond frustrating, but I guess they are just getting you ready for being at the bottom of the totem pole on the job.

What if my school is non target and the offer I got is geographically on the other side of the country, and my school would never talk to them ever? Say- Florida Gulf Coast Uni, and Cisco.

4/7/13

What if it was a return offer that you reneged? For example, intern somewhere your sophomore year, received return offer at the end of summer, and then accept another if a better internship presents itself?

4/8/13

I had no idea how bad this was :( I thought I was supposed to do what's best for my career. What should I say during my meeting with the career advisor?

4/8/13

I also had a friend reneg on a non-OCR position and he was banned from the services. School believes it still reflects poorly upon them so it's definitely a possibility.

4/8/13

it must depend on school by school. At my school (target), you only lose ocr privileges if you renege on OCR.

4/8/13

therock555:
it must depend on school by school. At my school (target), you only lose ocr privileges if you renege on OCR.

How did you know this? I didn't even know what reneging meant when I was interviewing. They should warn the students

4/8/13

Dude, its tough to say, as every school has different policies. Some schools would let you slide (since this was non-ocr) while others will punish you for ruining the potential relationship they might have with the company you reneged. As of now, just be honest and make your case as to why you reneged. Maybe your career advisor agrees with your decision of reneging...you would never know. Also, reneging on an internship isn't as bad as reneging a FT position. They can easily find another candidate since a lot of students still need an internship.

4/8/13

<a href=mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]</a>:
Dude, its tough to say, as every school has different policies. Some schools would let you slide (since this was non-ocr) while others will punish you for ruining the potential relationship they might have with the company you reneged. As of now, just be honest and make your case as to why you reneged. Maybe your career advisor agrees with your decision of reneging...you would never know. Also, reneging on an internship isn't as bad as reneging a FT position. They can easily find another candidate since a lot of students still need an internship.

That can definitely be said about FT too. There is always going to be more than enough candidates to fill a few positions at each company, for full time or for internship. That's not the issue. The company probably feels that they wasted time and money AND invested in a candidate only to end up with nothing. (Although all of that is BS if you ask me.) The conclusion is that the company is always going to be fine. They just hate doing more work than they need to.

Now, for the candidate, reneging on internship is 1000x worse (vs. full time) because it could get you banned from FT OCR.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it baffles my mind that you reneged without thinking about the consequences...

4/9/13

At my school, you are banned from OCR after missing two or more on-campus interviews. The consequence for reneging offer is even worse. The schools always try to maintain their long term relationships with employers. Reneging an OCR offer is pretty serious.

4/9/13

there was thread on it recently. elab

4/9/13

I was talking to a career counselor at my school about this (I am at a target), and apparently every year, there's a consortium of wall street banks that meets with people from career services from all the Ivys, and one of the topics that gets brought up are reneges.

Specific names are even brought up apparently. Her advice was not to do it, as it could eventually hurt me more than help me in the end.

4/9/13

Vault Article: http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_...

I am guessing that many of you may have already seen this link however.

4/9/13
gradhopes:

Vault Article: http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_...

I am guessing that many of you may have already seen this link however.

When was this article written?! This is a direct quote from the article:

"[My school] actively discourages the practice," comments Fuqua student John Mack

He's CEO of Morgan Stanley now....he must have been a Fuqua student a really, really long time ago unless this John Mack is a different one than the Morgan Stanley one.

4/9/13

I would not do it. It does hurt you down the line more than you might expect.

4/9/13

you could get screwed. people have been trashed from our local Business Career Center, now they cannot schedule any interviews in the future with any employer...not like but def poss.

4/9/13

wow how come this thread is saying completely different things than the other thread? on the other thread people were saying you gotta do whats best for yourself, nobody cares about losing a summer/full time analyst cuz there's so many of them, etc...?

4/9/13

I second this - it seems like people are far more conservative about reneging on this thread than on others.

4/9/13
aguy:

I second this - it seems like people are far more conservative about reneging on this thread than on others.

I agree, this is very strange. It seems people have very polarized views on reneging in terms of near and long term consequences. Why is this? Maybe more people could weigh in on this so a consensus might be formed, because it is a very difficult, but not all that uncommon situation.

4/9/13
sshiah:

wow how come this thread is saying completely different things than the other thread? on the other thread people were saying you gotta do whats best for yourself, nobody cares about losing a summer/full time analyst cuz there's so many of them, etc...?

I think difference between two threads was that the first discussed renegging on a MM offer for a BB offer, and I believe this is taken more as BB offers only.

4/9/13

Friend of mine got rejected from BBs in on-campus interviews (we go to target MBA) so he took an offer with a decent MM bank - not nearly top tier or anything. Then, one of the top tier BBs called him and said they had one spot left, and did he want to come to NYC for one more interview. He said he wanted to come for the interview, and, while he was scheduling interview times w/ HR, he told them about accepting (orally, he hasn't signed anything) an offer from the MM bank. The HR person abruptly said she'd call him back. An hour later she called back and said the bank has a strict policy of not interviewing people who have already accepted offers (even orally) and they won't hire anyone who renegs, AND, if they find out during the summer that you reneged in order to come there, they GUARANTEE YOU WON'T GET A FULL-TIME OFFER.
Is that normal?

4/9/13
pitchmonkey:

Friend of mine got rejected from BBs in on-campus interviews (we go to target MBA) so he took an offer with a decent MM bank - not nearly top tier or anything. Then, one of the top tier BBs called him and said they had one spot left, and did he want to come to NYC for one more interview. He said he wanted to come for the interview, and, while he was scheduling interview times w/ HR, he told them about accepting (orally, he hasn't signed anything) an offer from the MM bank. The HR person abruptly said she'd call him back. An hour later she called back and said the bank has a strict policy of not interviewing people who have already accepted offers (even orally) and they won't hire anyone who renegs, AND, if they find out during the summer that you reneged in order to come there, they GUARANTEE YOU WON'T GET A FULL-TIME OFFER.
Is that normal?

That is VERY gay. Are you gonna tell us what firm? Of course, if you're worried about keeping him anonymous, then nevermind.

4/9/13

That sounds a bit extreme. It would seem that they would absolutely love to steal a competitor's analysts.

4/9/13

I'd say reneging on a BB offer for another BB is a bad idea.

Reneging on a MM offer for a BB offer, in my opinion, is fine.

4/9/13

People have certainly done it, but it's not without risks. I have known at least a couple of occasions where someone has reneged on an offer, and it sufficiently pissed off the bankers charged with onboarding him that they put in a call to his new employer, causing him to lose the new offer and leaving him well up shit creek, paddle not included.

Of course, there is a counter-argument to be made here, which is that during the darkest days of the downturn, we yanked jobs away from candidates who had signed on the dotted line when we realized we had overhired for a class versus the business needs. They found themselves without a job, post recruiting season, and out of luck.

My advice would be not to do it, but I'm realistic enough to know it happens. I personally wouldn't make a call to torpedo a kid unless he had done something particularly outrageous, but I know plenty of people who would.

4/9/13
GhengisKhan:

People have certainly done it, but it's not without risks. I have known at least a couple of occasions where someone has reneged on an offer, and it sufficiently pissed off the bankers charged with onboarding him that they put in a call to his new employer, causing him to lose the new offer and leaving him well up shit creek, paddle not included.

Of course, there is a counter-argument to be made here, which is that during the darkest days of the downturn, we yanked jobs away from candidates who had signed on the dotted line when we realized we had overhired for a class versus the business needs. They found themselves without a job, post recruiting season, and out of luck.

My advice would be not to do it, but I'm realistic enough to know it happens. I personally wouldn't make a call to torpedo a kid unless he had done something particularly outrageous, but I know plenty of people who would.

can't you just not tell them what firm you are reneging on them for? then they don't know who to call to torpedo you right?

also is there a difference if it's only an oral agreement rather than written? cuz then it's their words against yours right?

4/9/13

it all depends on the situation, but I still feel you have to do whats best for yourself. also, every career center is going to say not to ever reneg, but they have to say that. they dont want employers pissed off at kids from their school, possibly leading to less recruiting.

4/9/13

Yeah, if what you say is true, would you mind sharing which firm? A sizeable number of people on this board could potentially be walking into a landmine.

4/9/13

"I was talking to a career counselor at my school about this (I am at a target), and apparently every year, there's a consortium of wall street banks that meets with people from career services from all the Ivys, and one of the topics that gets brought up are reneges. "

ever consider that career services has a strong incentive to not have you reneg? think about that.

4/9/13

Friend of mine got rejected from BBs in on-campus interviews (we go to target MBA) so he took an offer with a decent MM bank - not nearly top tier or anything. Then, one of the top tier BBs called him and said they had one spot left, and did he want to come to NYC for one more interview. He said he wanted to come for the interview, and, while he was scheduling interview times w/ HR, he told them about accepting (orally, he hasn't signed anything) an offer from the MM bank. The HR person abruptly said she'd call him back. An hour later she called back and said the bank has a strict policy of not interviewing people who have already accepted offers (even orally) and they won't hire anyone who renegs, AND, if they find out during the summer that you reneged in order to come there, they GUARANTEE YOU WON'T GET A FULL-TIME OFFER.
Is that normal?

That is VERY gay. Are you gonna tell us what firm? Of course, if you're worried about keeping him anonymous, then nevermind.

.
I would love to tell you which firms were involved, but I can't. The BB is one of the following, though GS, MS, ML, LEH.

4/9/13

The contract specifies you give so much notice if you are going to withdraw.

I know its hard to believe but other candidates with similar abilities exist. Remember you are unproven as a graduate so while its a pain in the ass for the company to recruit someone else it is far from the end of the world.

No idea about the US but if HR went around ringing other companies to tattle on them it would be a legal minefield.

4/9/13

"can't you just not tell them what firm you are reneging on them for? then they don't know who to call to torpedo you right?"

good thinking sshiah.

4/9/13

it's called being employed at will. the employment agreement can be broken by either party, at any time. kind of like no fault divorce. don't feel bad about it.

4/9/13

People have certainly done it, but it's not without risks. I have known at least a couple of occasions where someone has reneged on an offer, and it sufficiently pissed off the bankers charged with onboarding him that they put in a call to his new employer, causing him to lose the new offer and leaving him well up shit creek, paddle not included.

If you actually tell a firm where you're going when you renege on their offer, you have to be pretty foolish.

That's not to say that they might find out anyway (Wall Street isn't as big as it seems), but if you actually give them the lowdown, you're probably not that bright to begin with.

4/9/13
Rickets:

People have certainly done it, but it's not without risks. I have known at least a couple of occasions where someone has reneged on an offer, and it sufficiently pissed off the bankers charged with onboarding him that they put in a call to his new employer, causing him to lose the new offer and leaving him well up shit creek, paddle not included.

If you actually tell a firm where you're going when you renege on their offer, you have to be pretty foolish.

That's not to say that they might find out anyway (Wall Street isn't as big as it seems), but if you actually give them the lowdown, you're probably not that bright to begin with.

Wall Street is a very small community, especially in various specializations. It always amazes me how an analyst or associate can think that he/she can beat the system. You can I suppose, but mostly in situations where we just don't care enough to check.

I've been around long enough that between friends across other firms, old colleagues, respected adversaries, b-school buddies, etc., it's not hard to find out a lot of things that junior bankers think I can't find out just because those things off limits to HR.

You want to lie about getting the offer from a summer, or that you have an outstanding offer from another bank? Usually, nobody gives it a thought, but if you have the misfortune of saying it in a way that makes a banker think that you're lying, you're asking for trouble.

I can pick up a phone to any firm on Wall Street and find out that answer in five minutes. I'll know more about what they think of you than you do.

The best protection, if you're going to lie about something, is to stay under the radar. Raise a red flag, and it's not the security screening firm, the background checking firm, or HR you should worry about.

4/9/13

You committed to being there. If you renege, you're putting your integrity and reputation at risk.

Personally, I would be very cautious doing any business with someone whose word can't be trusted. Think about that.

4/9/13

If you accepted the position, verbal or otherwise, you should take it. To do otherwise would be unethical and a possible violation of your school's policy regarding campus recruiting.

4/9/13

Hypothetically, let's say an analyst accepted an offer with your bank, called up a week or two later and said he had to renege for "personal reasons." Let's say this kid's excuse wasn't very good, and whoever spoke with him believes there's a 50-50 shot he went to another bank.

In this case, would someone like yourself start calling all the other banks, asking "Did Mr. XYZ accept an offer with you?" Just want to get a sense of how aggressive a bank would be to find out what happened / try to get his other offer rescinded vs. just letting it go.

Note: I'm not actually thinking about doing this, it's just a point of curiosity.

4/9/13
Rickets:

Hypothetically, let's say an analyst accepted an offer with your bank, called up a week or two later and said he had to renege for "personal reasons." Let's say this kid's excuse wasn't very good, and whoever spoke with him believes there's a 50-50 shot he went to another bank.

In this case, would someone like yourself start calling all the other banks, asking "Did Mr. XYZ accept an offer with you?" Just want to get a sense of how aggressive a bank would be to find out what happened / try to get his other offer rescinded vs. just letting it go.

Note: I'm not actually thinking about doing this, it's just a point of curiosity.

Rickets, OneSquare has a fairly articulate explanation of the types of things that can blow you up down the road in another thread.

Some of you take a very "legal-ese" approach to this business, which is perhaps understandable since you're applying for analytical positions. However, I'd point out that this is a people business, and you need to start thinking about it that way.

Why do most M&A deals blow up? Not because of price, or structure, or deal protections. But because of what we call "social issues". Someone pisses off someone else, and all of the rational reasons to do a deal go out the window.

I like to think I'm one of the best people you could have the chance to work for in this business. I like to think I'm fair, compassionate, and put a lot of investment into developing young analysts, associates and VPs into future managing directors. I'm not a work generator, since I generally know exactly what I want and am held in high enough regard that few MDs debate my calls. As a staffer, I purposefully don't "walk the floor" to terrorize the junior bankers, and I try to discourage face time.

Having said that, no one should ever mistake me for anything other than what I am. I am extremely demanding, and I expect my junior bankers to be highly committed, careful, and thoughtful. I expect them to return my mentorship, guidance and professional investment in them with a certain degree of loyalty and respect.

Piss me off, and you take your chances. As tolerant and humane as I think I am, I will tell you this: if you want to fuck with me, I will squash you like a bug. I have ended the careers of bankers both junior and senior to me, and I'm one of the "nice" ones. This week, one of my junior VPs is going to discover that his future with our firm is going to be very much shorter than he anticipated.

My advice with regards to playing games with your acceptance is that while you think you may be legally within your rights, you should think carefully about it nonetheless. Choose to pull this stunt off with one of my more volatile colleagues, and you may learn very quickly the dangers of playing with fire.

4/9/13

The personal reasons excuse sounds like total BS. What would your response be if you were asked whether you had another offer?

Don't accept a position unless you will take it regardless of what happens later.

If you have a valid personal reason unrelated to another offer, then it may be different.

4/9/13

"Hypothetically, let's say an analyst accepted an offer with your bank, called up a week or two later and said he had to renege for "personal reasons." Let's say this kid's excuse wasn't very good, and whoever spoke with him believes there's a 50-50 shot he went to another bank.

In this case, would someone like yourself start calling all the other banks, asking "Did Mr. XYZ accept an offer with you?" Just want to get a sense of how aggressive a bank would be to find out what happened / try to get his other offer rescinded vs. just letting it go.

Note: I'm not actually thinking about doing this, it's just a point of curiosity."

If I cared enough, I could find out pretty easily. I know who our competition is for jobs and its only a couple calls away. I'm at the point where I'm not going to ruin some kids life because they are immature, but it is a huge red flag. They certainly will never get an interview at my firm again, and why would anyone burn a bridge day one, because of some perceived incremental difference (and the difference between being an analyst at GS vs. say Bear Stearns, is truly incremental at best)

4/9/13

Stop trying to scare people and trying to give off the impression that you're a bigshot. You're a VP, in other words a dime a dozen.

To the original poster, do what's best for you. Banks and career centers will only tell you to do what's in their best interest. Dont listen to them. If you have a better opportunity than the job you've already accepted, take it.

4/9/13

Stop trying to scare people and trying to give off the impression that you're a bigshot. You're a VP, in other words a dime a dozen.

To the original poster, do what's best for you. Banks and career centers will only tell you to do what's in their best interest. Dont listen to them. If you have a better opportunity than the job you've already accepted, take it.

4/9/13
midwestisthebest:

Stop trying to scare people and trying to give off the impression that you're a bigshot. You're a VP, in other words a dime a dozen.

Actually, I'm not. As I've explained before, the profile allows you to choose only VP or MD. But this response is exactly the sort of linear thinking I was warning about.

"VP" seems to mean something to you. Some of you bucket firms and universities based on your own little mental ranking, and you are doing the same because of what my profile says. I could be a high school student masquerading as a banker. I could be an analyst. I could be Lloyd Blankfein (but highly unlikely). But let's take it on faith that I might actually be a director/SVP level banker.

There would still be a ton of us. Not all that much different from the number of MDs. But not as many of us as you'd think. And some of us matter more than others. If you take me at my word, I'd tell you that I wield more power than most MDs at my firm. Why? Because I have the ear of several group heads, vice chairmen and the head of investment banking. My clients are my clients as much as the firm's, and my personal P&L rivals that of many small firms. And while I have no shortage of people who would love to chop me down a notch, I'm more valuable than their satisfaction is, for now. Don't ever mistake rank for power, in this business or with your clients'.

Understand this, in banking none of us are more than a half step away from unemployment. This is the nature of the beast. Analysts, despite their self image of being "ballers", have no idea how fungible an asset they (and indeed all of us) are. So your "dime a dozen" comment is true, but not in the way you think.

Or I could be a high school kid pulling your leg.

You should always feel free to do what you want. That's the beauty of free will.

4/9/13

Reneging is usually a very, very bad idea. Unless there are considerable difference between the two jobs on offer don't even think about it. If you're going to do it come up with some face saving excuse and never ever mention where you are going to (or even that you are taking up an offer somewhere else). When I worked for the trading desk of a BB I would hear at least three to four stories of renegers getting FT offers or internships rescinded every year.

The only exception are small HF's where we do get people 'pulling out' for various reasons (and we assume at least half of them are taking up offers elsewhere) but I would be very wary even then.

4/9/13

While this seems like it would always be a very bad idea, I'd think people would react very differently depending on your reasons for reneging. If you're joining the PeaceCorps or going to medical school, people will probably be pissed, but they probably wouldn't actively sabotage you (you might never be able to enter the industry again, but maybe that doesn't matter). Since you're posting on this board it seems more likely you're leaving for a competitor, in which case I'd almost expect someone to torpedo you. I can't imagine not doing a lot of damage in that case.

4/9/13

no changes to the general argument i assume?

4/9/13

sorry OP if I divert this a little, but will any of you think it is wise for one to renege a FT lehman offer for one with a top firm in a non-IB industry-think IBM, Google, or maybe even drastically, KKR?

4/9/13

If you want to work at goog sure

4/9/13

You aren't beholden to these offers. If you want to work at KKR or Google then go for it. I doubt these firms are going to try to actively torpedo your career if you're fresh out of undergrad. Now, if you are taking a VP or higher role with a firm and suddenly you back out then that will be a much bigger issue.

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4/9/13

tell them to give you more time...if they don't agree..take the risk and forget about the offer.

PW jobs at BB's are pretty easy to get at least where i am so i don't think you should let them hold you by the neck

4/9/13

Did you get the internship through your school? Some schools, such as the Ivy's, while allowing companies to recruit students through the schools' career center, forbid companies to give out exploding offers (failure to do so could involve delisting of the company from further recruitment throughout an entire school league, such as the Ivy League). Check with your school career center to see if they can offer any help.

4/9/13

I checked the career center website. Technically I should have until April 1st.

4/9/13

Horseshit.

4/9/13

technically the job offer could easily be given to someone else

4/9/13

I think just letting the PW guy know that you know that you are supposed to have until April 1st might get him to extend the deadline. Doubt he would want to be blacklisted.

4/9/13

i even doubt if he got the unpaid PW from from the school

4/9/13

mrlover1,

Actually the PW job was through the campus recruiting database. The offer was given over the phone so they could just say they never offered it to me since it is not in writing.

4/9/13

A company can rescind an offer anytime they want as long as it isn't because of your race, religion, or a disability.

For on-campus jobs though, this will almost never happen. Companies that regularly recruit at your school want to maintain their image and good standing there.

In your case I would ask for more time and a hardcopy or email of the offer. Explain that you appreciate the offer and are excited about it, but are also looking into a few other opportunities and would appreciate another week so you can make an informed decision. Go ahead and mention the 4/1 guidance. Since it's unpaid I doubt they would have a problem granting you more time.

Get a readable copy of the offer so you are clear with exactly what is being expected of you and so you can raise questions about anything you are still unsure about.

Good luck!

4/9/13

nothingman's advice sounds like a good approach.

4/9/13
aguy:

nothingman's advice sounds like a good approach.

Agreed. Thanks all for your help.

4/9/13
nothingman:

A company can rescind an offer anytime they want as long as it isn't because of your race, religion, or a disability.

It might depend on the differences in laws, but over here, job offer given out to a Offeree in writing is considered a legally binding obligation of the Employer to the Offeree to hire him on terms stated in the offer. Probably, in the U.S. it is different, though...

4/9/13
jim3481:

do you guys know of a safe way to renege on a job offer? if the employer contacts the school, the school can take away all future recruiting access...what should i do? junior in college.

elaborate on your situation....if your a senior, and thinking of reneging, in general no prob. i wouldnt reneg a summer offer though if you get cut off....

after you go fulltime, who cares.

4/9/13

bump. any safe way of doing it for a summer position? I verbally accepted an offer, but was recently contacted by my first choice for an interview. If I get it, what then?

4/9/13

Verbal acceptance doesn't mean anything, so do not worry. Unless you sign a contract, you don't have any obligations

4/9/13

Recently, I was offered a FT position for a company that I plan on working for. However, I had also interviewed with a company about two months ago in which I was extended an offer (I accepted the offer, in fear of having no job).

My question is this: How would one go about reneging? Should I contact the school's career center and explain my situation? Or should I renege company A by sending an email?

For those who have successfully reneged, how did you go about it? Thanks.

4/9/13

I wouldn't bother going through the school center. I reneged on an offer and just called up the HR contact for my school, the recruiter, and explained to her that I had lined something else up that gave me an opportunity I did not expect to have - an opportunity I would later be kicking myself for if I did not take it. She asked for a little bit more information, but I kept it at a minimum and told her I was given the opportunity to travel (my initial job was in Boston - new job in NYC - so that's kind of true) and that it was a job in finance.

I suggest just being honest and do your best to be as up front as possible. They may not be thrilled with you for reneging, but if you call and are straightforward, they will at least respect the fact you called them right away and were honest. None of this email BS - it's very impersonal and will make you look like a pussy. Not to mention it will 100% burn bridges - if you are honest and call, it may not completely burn bridges. And I doubt they'll tell your campus recruiting center.

4/9/13

interview, if you get the offer, call HR at the other firm and tell them youve taken another offer. plain and simple.

4/9/13

Thanks jimbrowngoU and iambateman for your inputs.

I already got the offer for the company I want to work for (heard today). My other offer, which I had accepted, was back in middle of December.

So I guess I will go ahead and give HR (for the company I don't want to work for) a call, letting them know I have accepted another offer.

Thanks again for the help.

4/9/13

Thanks Ivan.

I forgot the mention that my FT offer that I had accepted back in middle of December was only a verbal acceptance.

But this brings up another question: Is there a possibility for reneged company to contact my school, telling them what happen? What if then the career center decides to call the company that I plan on working for and tell them to renege their offer towards me? Then I'm screwed.

Thanks again for the inputs.

4/9/13

You're being paranoid, that won't happen/they would NEVER do that.

4/9/13

In fact, from what I've heard, that is exactly what happened to someone at your school.

4/9/13

even if you signed i dont think you have any obligations...

4/9/13

Well, if you did sign it at least mean that you officially accepted. But if you say them whatever verbally, it doesn't mean anything at all - that's the difference. You may always say that you was misunderstood, and they thought your "Hm, that sounds a good offer, I am ready to sign it" an acceptance of the offer (or something similar), while actually it means only the fact that you do like the offer, and WILL accept it via putting your signature on the contract.

4/9/13

I never signed for the offer that I accepted back in middle of December (lets call this company A); it was only a verbal acceptance. I will be, and plan on, signing with company B (the company that I just received an offer from).

My only concern was if company A would contact my school and telling them the "situation". But it sounds like they won't (at least according to WSO). I hope its the case.

Thanks again everyone. If anyone else has an opinion, please feel free to share.

4/9/13

yawster,

Care to elaborate what you mean? So a company actually called up someone's school, explaining what had happened?

By the way, I do not go to UCLA.

4/9/13

Even if you signed a contract, all offers come with the 'at-will employment' clause. As we've seen, employers have no qualms about reneging offers they give out to summers and full-times.

Just call up HR and be sincere, explaining that this job was unexpected but was what you definitely wanted to explore as a career. They're people who have gone through the same process as well, so they will understand.

4/9/13

Thanks Classic. I guess my only real concern is if the reneged company were to call my school's career center.

4/9/13

I'm not sure of the full details but yes, the company called the career center, and the career center in turn, called some of the other firms the candidate had recruited and gotten offers at. It didn't really make a difference for the company he reneged for, but I'm not sure how it affected the other companies (aside from the firm he reneged from).

Keep in mind, if a firm likes you, I doubt the fact you reneged on another firm will change that opinion. For instance, firms have no qualms in poaching people mid-program from other firms. This might be an issue for a smaller bank, but I can't see a "top shop" caring too much. That's just my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt.

I heard from a close friend and he's not one to lie... I'm not at UCLA either.

4/9/13

If this is really a huge concern of yours, what you could do is speak with the HR where you will work. Explain to them the situation - how you'll be reneging a verbal acceptance with another firm to come work for them - and that you are concerned what may happen if your OCR contacts them. This will give them a bit of a heads up. But I'd only do it if I were extremely concerned about something happening.

4/9/13

Thanks yawster and jimbrowngoU.

Before I go ahead and renege, I will sign the contract with the firm I plan on working for. Then I will speak with HR for the firm I will be reneging.

4/9/13

don't want to hijack the thread, but i'm in a similar (but slightly different) situation. I have an internship offer with a small boutique (no formal HR, I've been given the offer and contract and everything by the associate that I've been in communication with) that expires in two weeks or so. However, this position is unpaid (and in NYC) and I have interviews lined up for a couple of BB soph programs that actually pay.

Now, I'll obviously try to tell the smaller firm to extend my timeline and let the other firms know I'm on this tight deadline, but if all else fails, what would be the right thing to do? I'm thinking I wouldn't feel extremely bad in reneging since I'd only do so if it was for an opportunity that was financially smart (it pays). Also, this opportunity from the boutique is not via on-campus recruiting. Any advice would be appreciated.

4/9/13

s22, just accept. I wouldn't even try to ask the boutique for extra time. If you ask them and they say "no" and then you accept, they may suspect you're going to renege if you get an offer. It depends on what you want to do, but I'd take the maximum amount of time with the boutique. If they say, "make a decision now," accept it. Continue to interview with BBs. If you get a BB, take it immediately and renege on the boutique.

It's business. They may not be happy about it, but it's not the end of the world, either. There will be no repercussions, as I cannot imagine they'll actually contact your OCR since it's not through it.

4/9/13

So I just received an email from my school's career center, informing me that they received information from the company that I had reneged on. And they would like to speak to me or at least have me clarify the situation to them.

So, I am asking: What should I do? Ignore the email? Give a(n) (il)legitimate excuse?

4/9/13

I wouldn't risk it. Finance is a small world and a bad reputation will hurt you.

___________________
Chase Us, Break In
http://chasingconsultantsbreakingbankers.blogspot....

4/9/13

breakingbankers,

Oh, I forgot to mention this isn't investment banking related. The company I reneged on was a health care company; I decided to accept another offer in an entirely different industry (FMP program i.e. P&G, GE, Raytheon, UTC, etc.).

When you say you wouldn't risk it, do you mean not email them back?

4/9/13

How should I approach the situation?

4/9/13

This is pretty dumb shit. A company can renege on offers and still come back to recruit at the campus, and if a student does that the f'in Career center is after them. Total BS.

4/9/13

I agree entirely....
Now I'm stuck in this dilemma, having no idea how to go about this situation.

4/9/13

I once missed an on-campus presentation and my career center went insane on me.

As for gomi, tell them the truth. Say that you got a better offer and you would never shortchange yourself, ESPECIALLY IN THIS MARKET. Tell the center that they need to understand this and that they are there to HELP YOU.

4/9/13

Mez,

Great post. Yeah, I don't the understand the logic as well: Companies are rescinding offers left and right, and, with this current market economy, offers are not guaranteed anymore.

I just hope they understand. On the plus side, they do not know who I did accept an offer with (is that a good thing?).

4/9/13

Yup, its a very good thing. If they still don't understand and try to screw you during FT recruiting, then go on get something yourself (network over the summer), make millions, and then refuse to donate any alumni dollars citing the above situation as your reason.

4/9/13

How about this situation...

I recieved and signed an offer about 3 weeks ago but now want to interview for another position in the same company but different group (where I want to be). Can I do this?

Will they allow me to interview and will it jeapordize the current offer I have?

4/9/13

No, that is retarded if its the same company. You will probably have to talk to HR to even approve it.

4/9/13

Is a verbal "yes" going to be construed in the same way as physically signing a document? I mean, college fb recruits do it all the time after they've "verbally" committed to a place.

4/9/13

A verbal "yes" is not the same as physically signing an offer letter - in the end, it boils down to your word against theirs. Some firms construe a verbal "yes" in the same light as a written "yes" (generally smaller, boutique firms), but the bigger ones generally know better.

4/9/13

a

4/9/13

Your employment is at will. You could show up on the first day and they could say go home, not that they will do that, but they could. You could also show up on the first day, tell them to stuff it and go home. This is essentially the same thing.

Considerations:

Did you get a bonus? You would have to pay that back (the gross, not net amount.

Bad will? The debate on these forums rages on as to whether Second-choice Bank will call First-choice Bank saying that you are a backstabber.

If you get your first choice, and are not bothered by either of the two things above, then call second choice and tell them you will no longer be able to participate in their summer analyst program. It might not be "good business," but that is your call to make.

4/9/13

Would advise against this for summer offers. I'd recommend telling your first choice that you've already accepted a summer offer, but would look forward to interviewing with them in August or September for FT.

Can you tell us what type of firms we're talking about here? If it was reneging on Piper Jaffray for a BB, I'd say go ahead. But if we're talking 2 solid firms for SA opportunities, you'll have plenty of opportunities to switch firms come FT recruiting.

Now if this was FT offers that would decide the next 2 years of your life, I'd say renege away. But it's a SA position and your reputation isn't worth reneging for SA stint. If you renege and your employer finds out, it could affect their willingness to extend you a FT offer. Would like to hear others' opinions WRT reneging on SA offers.

4/9/13

thanks guys! i sent you a PM nystateofmind.

4/9/13

you shouldn't have a problem. a lot of ppl do that every year - however, you won't be able to join the bank you reneged the offer from as a full-timer if you ever consider that. HR from different banks do not usually talk to each other as much as many people on this forum tend to think.

4/9/13

If the lower ranked bank is a BB, I wouldn't renege. High finance is a very very small world and you could get burned.

4/9/13

was in a similar situation, but top for a top. best way to handle is play it safe. tell the other bank ur enthusiastic about their offer but have already accepted, would they be ok with you reneging? the analyst didn't care but when ran by his MD, MD didn't want to face the trouble or mess with the other bank. some very high level people made me the offer so I wanted to get backing or u face getting burned on both sides... my experience it was a no go.

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

4/9/13

if you accept an offer, you really should follow thru with it. there can be some bad blood on taking an offer then reneging. It's odd too because guys quit all the time and quitting a job you are already in has less of negative impact than reneging on an offer. I think the difference is if you quit for a better job, that happens but if you accept an offer and keep on interviewing, then guys really take that personally as thats kind of an insult on top of everything as it says "i only took this job originally because i couldnt find anything better but i kept looking".

4/9/13
RKBanker:

if you accept an offer, you really should follow thru with it. there can be some bad blood on taking an offer then reneging. It's odd too because guys quit all the time and quitting a job you are already in has less of negative impact than reneging on an offer. I think the difference is if you quit for a better job, that happens but if you accept an offer and keep on interviewing, then guys really take that personally as thats kind of an insult on top of everything as it says "i only took this job originally because i couldnt find anything better but i kept looking".

That's what I've been thinking. If you start at your job, work for some time and then quit - well basically you are in perfectly legal situation here. Hence, the HR would not have any news to spread around...you simply left for a better company. It would even sound ridiculous.

4/9/13

The lower ranked is also a BB, but prestige is really enticing. Could I not just tell them I am not showing up for the offer and bugger off? How will they know I land on another place?

4/9/13

Just to share with you horror stories I heard while at grad school (I'm sure all of you have heard the same, if not a similar version of this story).

There was a student that accepted an offer at a small boutique investment bank. Later on in the recruiting cycle he was offered more money and a better position with a BB. So he reneges on the small bank thinking no big deal, small firm, no one will know.

Well shows up to his first day of work and was fired on the spot by the BB. They didn't like the fact that he wasn't truthful during the interviews and they didn't believe that he would fulfill his promises.

Long story short, don't do it.

4/9/13

Hi theATL, how did the better position find out on his first day of work? That is horrible.

4/9/13

The better position found out before the first day of work. Finance is a small world, especially in NYC, and just because someone doesn't work at a BB doesn't mean they don't spend time with those people/have friends in BBs/ etc etc.

The firm just waited until the first day to basically screw him over. It was a big "F you" to the person. While I don't agree with the way they acted, he obviously wasn't too trustworthy either.

4/9/13

There have been like 5 threads on this in the last 2 weeks. Obviously, more than enough people do it.

4/9/13

well just make sure they don't find out... or ur done for.

=========================================
We are excited to formally extend to you an offer to join Bank of Ameria

4/9/13

would this kind of stuff show up on a background check?

4/9/13

I think I take a unique perspective on the matter, after having my contract reneged by Bear Stearns. I realize it was a very different type of situation, but what I come to realize is that we are all very dispensable. Seriously, how easy would it be for a firm to fill a position if one person renegs? I know it's not proper "form" to reneg, but honestly...I think everyone needs to do what's best for THEIR career - not what's best for a firm which they haven't even started to work at. If an opportunity presents itself that will put you in a better position career-wise, take it and don't look back! It's highly unlikely that the firm you reneg on will maliciously try to screw you over. As shitty as the situation is, clearly they understand you went for a position that you desired more - they'll get over it quickly and find someone else to replace you.

4/9/13

Yeah, it all depends on whether the old position will go out of the way to track you down and screw you over. God knows whether I will be able to move up to the new position the rest of my life, but the risk is really high, especially they are both BB. I think if I confess to the new position, they will be definitely pissed. What is the chance that if I decline the new one now and talk to them a year later?

4/9/13

I agree that finance and banking is a very small world. Reneg at your own risk.

4/9/13

the way i see it, asking for a verbal commitment kinda means they know you can't sign this early but they want to know at least that you're interested. tell them yes. in the end, they can't prove you accepted (coz you didn't, you just said you're willing to).
the bigger taboo is for reneging an ACCEPTED offer, not a verbal commitment.

=========================================
"... then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it."

4/9/13

Why don't you ask very nicely for just a one day extension from the MM? And then ask the BB if they could get back to you ASAP after the interview because you have another exploding offer? I'm sure they would understand. In the end though, I've always heard that reneging on only a verbal commit is no reason for blacklisting or anything so drastic. At any rate, good luck at your BB superday.

4/9/13

Better to err on the side of caution, just remember that, however, reneging a verbal contract is fine and even if you were to get blacklisted, like you said its not your first choice so w/e, just don't piss them off as they probably have people on the waitlist

4/9/13

Reneging a verbal commitment is totally fine and it happens all the time.

Asking for a day or two extension is a horrible idea. Firstly, they don't like the fact that you are dragging on. Secondly, this will impact their initial impression on you and could have a negative effect on you when the FT decision time comes in August.

Just say that you will verbally accept it. If you get the BB offer, drop it and go to your first choice BB. Simple.

--------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do NOT do that thing."
-Dwight Schrute, "The Office"-

4/9/13

Not sure where you guys are getting the notion that verbally accepting an offer is not binding. A verbal acceptance and signing a offer letter are both binding. Trying to justify the former as non-binding is just you trying to rationalize your actions. That being said, there is nothing wrong with telling the MM bank that you need a few more days to consider your options and will get back to them on ___ day (assuming you have a written offer letter from them that has a expiry date that has not passed yet.)

Try not to verbally accept with the intention of reneging. If you want to think of it from the view of burning bridges or having them bite you in the ass, whether or not you view a verbal offer as official or not, if you were in a situation where the MM called the BB or vice versa, the MM will say you reneged. At that point you argument of the legality of a verbal offer won't really matter.

In your case, seeing as how you've basically agreed to let them know by tomorrow, your only real option is to accept and potentially renege. But don't take comfort in that fact that is was merely a verbal acceptance. If the very unlikely scenario that the MM bank tries to fuck you, whether you had a verbal or written acceptance wouldn't really be the point or the issue at hand.

4/9/13

Keep in mind that the written offer will probably be in the mail (FedEx overnight) the moment you verbally accept. THey'll expect that back to them the following day.

4/9/13

Well to clarify, they've already sent the written offer. It has no expiration date on it and the way the HR lady explained it was that once I accept, I just need to mail it in. No need for overnight delivery or anything like that. If I verbally accept the offer, do I need to explain to the BB that I did so but would be willing to renege if I got an offer from them?

4/9/13

Entendu - if you're going to go down this road, do *NOT* tell the BB that you've accepted the offer with the MM. It would reflect poorly on you in their eyes (rightfully so) and make it highly unlikely that they would extend you an offer.

4/9/13

Not sure if this is still possible...at the time the MM called you to push you to sign, you should've said, I need 2-3 more days to make my decision, I will let you know then. If you can still communicate something to that effect, that would be the best case. Like Dacarez said though, do not tell the BB you have already accepted offer, just say you have another offer on the table but they are your top choice.

4/9/13

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the help. I was actually able to get a short extension on the MM offer. However, I also got the offer from the BB so everything turned out perfectly! I'm glad I came on here and got some advice before I did something stupid like accept and then renege the day after. For what it's worth to other people facing a similar predicament: at least at my school, the Career Center basically told me point blank that if I reneged on an offer, I would be cut off from doing any sort of OCR, the alumni directory and pretty much any other Career Center resource.

4/9/13

Congrats! Good to hear everything worked out for you.

4/9/13

Don't mention where you are going. It's okay to renege your offer. However, the problem is with your OCD...they may blacklist you from submitting resumes. You better get your FT offer otherwise you are fucked.

--------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do NOT do that thing."
-Dwight Schrute, "The Office"-

4/9/13

It's not in the US, so I don't really face that problem (I guess). I'm more afraid of BB A contacting BB B to tell them about this issue. So, I guess the sooner the better !? Best possible result would be to just have more time to decide but for that it seems to be too late now.

4/9/13

Not worth it. These people know each other and if they know what firm B is.....you can get fucked.

4/9/13

Does Bank A know that you would be going to Bank B? Just don't tell them where you are going.

--------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do that?' And if they would, I do NOT do that thing."
-Dwight Schrute, "The Office"-

4/9/13
NetRevenues:

Will BB A kill me when I renege their offer? They know that I had a final round with BB B. Might that have any consequences for the offer at BB B?

4/9/13

Playing with fire. you could get blacklisted from your career services if BB A reports to your school. but if BB B is that good, it might be worth it to go for it

4/9/13

As I said, I don't care about my career service, it's not the US so there is not so much campus recruiting. I'm more afraid of someone from BB A talking to BB B, would they do this only because a little summer intern reneged?

4/9/13

Is it a big difference like Citi vs GS? If not then I wouldn't risk it. Perhaps you're best off explaining to firm B that you had no choice but to sign another offer, and you would be very interested to interview for FT.

4/9/13

Don't listen to these fools. Reneging a SA offer is perfectly acceptable. Reneging an offer becomes a major issue at the VP/MD level where the number of qualified candidates is very small. They could replace you in a matter of hours. Cheers.

4/9/13

[x]

4/9/13

You'll get better responses if you just tell us which BBs

"The way to make money is to buy when blood is running in the streets."

-John D. Rockefeller

4/9/13

Do you think they can enforce their "fine"? And even if they can it might not be worth it for them to follow through.... If I were you I would make up some story about a close relative dieing and a need to fly out of the country for 3 weeks...... ask them if they can maintain the offer for the fall just to sound sincere..... be smart about this and you can definitely get out of the contract just make sure you keep your cards close to your chest and DO NOT let them know what your thinking.....

4/9/13

If you got another offer that is better and more in line with your objectives then who cares about the other place or their month salary fine...QUIT. If your that concerned then talk to you career center first before quitting. Whenever you are rushed into a contract it is never, ever good for you. Lesson learned.

4/9/13

hmmm i'm not really concerned about the fine though...

im more concerned about the firm telling this reneging move to my campus career center. if career center starts digging their noses into this thing, they'll be starting to ask me shit loads of stuff... perhaps denying me of their services in the future.. that can be messed up...

4/9/13

I don't think your career center will ban you from their services because you took initiative to get yourself a job. If you're lucky they will have sympathy for your situation and decision to sign a rushed contract with an unknown firm..and spend extra time on making sure you are more prepared next time.

4/9/13

Step 1. Tell the small shop you had the impression that you were going to do valuation work- hopefully they will staff you more on the valuation work. (If that doesn't work, move to step 2)

Step 2 . Tell your career service that the job isn't what was initially advertise....

If neither of those work, no one will blame you for quiting......

4/9/13

Look, you were not dishonest or misleading, this shady boutique was. What you whould do is honestly tell this people that you netered this contract under different pretenses (false pretenses) of what you'd actually be doing. Then immediately tell the career center that this firm mislead you. Don't wait for them to make the first move. Remember you haven't done anything wrong.

However, I'd take a moment and consider whether MM is really going to give you a much better experience. Are you a junior, or sophomore/freshmen? Underclassmen are usually given only boring and basic shit to do (my experience and that of my friends). Make sure the jump is worth it before you make waves. Check with others/alumni who have interned there.

Remember, no one is going to take the driver's seat in taking you where you want to go. You have to be behind the wheel. And if you do decide to go to the MM, then be honest, and alert your career center IMMEDIATELY don't let these boutique guys bad mouth you especially if they were liars to start with. Leopards don't change their spots so they'll probably cause some trouble for you.

4/9/13

just pay and u are out.

DONT say, as somebody mentioned, that some relative or someone died. Just tell them the truth, they will be pissed at first but understand. From what I gathered it is an industry in which reneging should be not a big deal espeically since it is a "voluntary" postiion. However, all real lies will at some point come back to you and your career service will be more pissed when they find out u lied than when u explain the situation.

btw not having capital markets involvmend does not disqualify from doing IB work. Plus all boutique (really small boutique) style IB will be more consulting like than BB or MM as the money will not come in from frequency....

im just an intern so I might be wrong...

4/9/13

The fine would be unenforceable, so that aspect is mostly irrelevant. If the job came from outside of the career center, it was not as advertised, AND they are trying to force you to sign an absurd contract, your career center should more than be understanding of the situation.

4/9/13

thanks all for the feedbacks. it seems the best way is to come clean, tell the truth about what happens and take charge of the whole situation right in the face to the boutique.

i think a pretty good reason that you guys recommended would be that the job reality did not exactly suit my expectations, i've found a job that will better suit my future career goal plus I did not have enough time to gather more essential info before signing the contract. As said, one month salary lost is nothing as this MM Structured Finance pays so much more.

I'm a junior going on senior, taking a term break for a long internship. ultimate target is to score FT IBD in BB. my biggest fear would be yes, to get shitty dumb-ass work that even a high school kid can do with a computer knowledge. i've past that horrible experience from my previous sophomore internship and swore to god, I won't take that sort of job again.

4/9/13

Seriously, you cannot be obligated to pay a 'fine' for leaving. They can rescind a bonus or something of that nature, but you cannot be forced to pay to leave employment. It is similar to the non-compete garbage that a lot of places put out that is essentially non-enforceable.

4/9/13

Exploding offers aren't allowed by most career centers, and it sounds like you were lied to. Also, the fine sounds like bullshit and unenforceable. Two options I see:

1) Quit, go to the MM; if the career center bothers you, tell them about all the shit the boutique did to you. My guess is that the boutique won't push the issue with the career center if its own activities are prohibited, since that would make it harder for them to recruit in the future. They sound shady as hell.

2) Talk to the career center first, explain the situation, ask if you can bail out. This is safer (less chance of losing future services) but limits your options if they imply in advance that you can't renege, since then you'll have no excuse to claim you didn't know it wasn't allowed (assuming it isn't).

1 is more risky, but 2 is less likely to succeed.

Also, something in banking, even at a MM, is better than the consulting/docs thing. Even if you end up doing grunt work, it's much easier to spin for your resume and later interviews.

4/9/13

just quit man. just make up some bs reason why he has to go back to the US or wherever the HF internship is

4/9/13

" along the caliber of Warburg Pincus, Apax, or Hellman Friedman"
"I'm telling him to quit and jump, since it's much better to have Warburg on his resume"
fail.

4/9/13

Just be polite when he does it. Ringing them will probably be a much better idea if he can face it.

4/9/13
nabran:

Just be polite when he does it. Ringing them will probably be a much better idea if he can face it.

agreed

4/9/13

by not reneging the worse offer, you already screwed yourself over

4/9/13

It ultimately comes down to a question of values. When I was younger and more immature, I certainly would have considered reneging for a better opportunity. After all, this is finance right? Why else am I going to New York? Whether it is a richer trade or a more compelling opportunity, people will selfishly gravitate towards the more lucrative option.

Nonetheless, I am older now and realize that my personal values are absolutely unnegotiable. Some people try to rationalize reneging by talking about how companies are disloyal to their employees - but at the end of the day, I have to look myself in the mirror and see whether or not I have jeopardized my own values. I may be old-fashioned but crossing the moral line has been the reason why finance has decayed as an industry and our collective lack of ethics has horrified the public. At one point, investment banking (at least the financial advisory business) was a highly-respected and much-honored profession. The lustre has worn off not because bankers have betrayed their clients, but that we often betrayed ourselves...

Furthermore, I am pursuing this profession for the long-term. Thus, I have a personal brand and reputation on the line. No marginal amount of money is going to compel me to tarnish that. Lastly, I have a responsibility not only to myself but to all my constituents. By reneging, I embarass not only myself but also my school, my peers and those who have helped me out.

4/9/13

You have to remember that companies can also rescind their offers, after they gave you an offer and after you declined to work for everyone else. Where is the justice in that? Unless it is your mentors who vouched for you to get that offer, I won't feel bad about this. Your loyalty should only be towards your constituency and your power-base. It is a every-man-for-himself world out there. You got to do what is best for you.

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."

4/9/13

I think it's highly dependent on the situation. Is the new offer only better in a financial sense? Or do your career prospects dramatically improve if you renege and go to the other firm? Does it put you closer to home/family/friends?

B-school career centers saying it's never acceptable to renege on an offer are laughable. Why do they consider it better to go work for a firm for 6 months and then ditch them? If you'd rather work someplace else that has offered you a job, and you're ok with the possible reputation hit, then you're saving the original firm time and money by reneging.

4/9/13

Reneging an accepted offer is one of the most awkward phone calls of your life.

4/9/13

It depends, if you get an offer at a no name boutique in a non-NYC, Chicago, LA, SF place and a decent MM or BB calls or MM PE you'd be a fool not to renege, the firms have no issue jettisoning you in a crisis, that said if you get FO at Citi and you get a DB/Barcap offer it's not worth it.

4/9/13

Thanks for your comments all. It really is dependent on the situation and the particular offers in hand. I'm sure we can all imagine a situation where we would definitely renege an offer even if youre generally inclined to be a man of your word.
I was just curious to see how often it occurs in the real world. It's prolly unrealistic to ask for any meaningful statistic on this issue, but I'm glad to see that there is logic and reason behind the renegings and not just money and the bottom line.

4/9/13

In this day and age, you have to protect #1, YOU. If you feel you deserve something better than the offer on the table, go ahead. It shows confidence and some people, including management are quite impressed with that.

4/9/13

Don't do anything until you actually get the other internship first. Just because you have interviews doesn't mean you have a job. But, just tell the first firm that the paid internship is better for your situation financially and be polite and thank them.

4/9/13

Is it bad that I mentioned the unpaid firms name to the paid when interviewing?

4/9/13

Probably not smart to mention their name. Needless to say, if the boutique is that small the other firms are unlikely to care.

4/9/13

I don't think it's that bad to mention, doubt if there small they're going to go out of their way to find out

4/9/13

I would highly suggest not to play that "leveraged my current internship for this one" game. If they asked you where you have been interviewing, it is okay to say at "I interviewed with Company A". That is a clean and fair shot. Trying to leverage with your current offer might be tricky.

"I am the hero of the story. I don't need to be saved."

4/9/13
Human:

I would highly suggest not to play that "leveraged my current internship for this one" game. If they asked you where you have been interviewing, it is okay to say at "I interviewed with Company A". That is a clean and fair shot. Trying to leverage with your current offer might be tricky.

Not trying to leverage just felt like being honest when they asked.

4/9/13

Deleted.

4/9/13

Renege if you get better, they aren't paying you, so don't feel bad. I don't get why it's taboo to renege on an offer, but not taboo for a firm to say 2 and out or lay you off.

4/9/13

If you don't get a signing bonus, I think it is okay to reneg, but that's just my opinion.

4/9/13

Was the interview tough? The one where the MD gave you the ultimatum.

Regards.

The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.

4/9/13
mhurricane:

Was the interview tough? The one where the MD gave you the ultimatum.

Regards.

Nope he just shat on me the whole time and eventually gave me it but told me I wouldn't get any modeling experience.

4/9/13

Wtf? Damn, no modeling experience. Rough. Thank you for the prompt response, though.

The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.

4/9/13

Bump

4/9/13

At the end of the day you have to do whats best for you.

4/9/13

theworks9:
At the end of the day you have to do whats best for you.

This.

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."

4/9/13

Take the banking offer. And I would be mostly honest. Make it sound like it was a really tough choice, but that you had to choose what was best for your future.

4/9/13

BusinessSense:
Take the banking offer. And I would be mostly honest. Make it sound like it was a really tough choice, but that you had to choose what was best for your future.

I tend to agree with this.. I would also add that at many schools, violation of the rules of on-campus recruiting can result in you being barred from it in the future. I would consider speaking to the first company's HR - they may surprise you and be accommodating, as no company prefers employees who don't want to be there.

"There are three ways to make a living in this business: be first, be smarter, or cheat."

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