Resigning - Termination
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Resigning - Termination
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What happened that made you think the VPs don't like you personally? What do you think the reasons are?
I think if I don't show up at work, they would use it to fire me. Otherwise they would have paid me a severance and told me to stay home. Instead, they rather having me around (which is also demeaning in many ways, since every one in the office understand what is going on).
Could they fire you on the spot, for no wrong doing? Would attention to details really cut it in a court of law?
In for later
So when you mean culture... you're Indian?
ribery probably got fired because of his huge ass facial scar, terrible snaggle-tooth grill, and the fact that he's french.
Chin up ribery, banking/finance blows, go back to football and earn 10 million euro/annum at Bayern. I'd rather be you than ray dalio.
In all seriousness, this sucks, I concur with others on this board, focus 100% on landing a new job. Are you mobile? Do you even want to stay in banking? There were performance issues so perhaps this just isn't a good fit in terms of career.
There are a hell of a lot of other things out there that are pretty satisfying and interesting in terms of careers if you are willing to look outside the box a bit.
.
Interesting similar thread.
resignation-vs-termination
This is 100% textbook on how you fire someone. There is nothing remotely special about it. They're doing you a favor by letting you quit before they fire you.
And I imagine to fire some one (and avoid a painful lawsuit) you are going to need some real proves of wrong doing, customers complaints, missed deadlines, etc. Also, most juries seem not to be too sympathetic with big banks these days. What would the discriminatory emails do in the hands of a good attorney?
Nope, employment is at will. They can fire you because it's raining on a Tuesday. He admitted that he disregarded his VPs directions, and I'm guessing that the time he referenced wasn't the only time. There may have been cultural fit issues, but he was also insubordinate.
What is this Soviet Russia? The employer can terminate your employment at anytime for any reason or no reason whatsoever. This is what at-will employment means. Who knows, maybe they fired you for budgetary reasons as they feel they cant afford you anymore. As Sirtradesalot pointed out, this is standard procedure and they are being charitable, so to speak, by giving you advanced notice so you can go find another job while still officially employed at your current firm and getting paid. It is much easier finding another job when you still (officially) have one rather than looking for one while you are unemployed.
Since you already have other offers, and could probably line up even better ones in the next 30 days, I would pursue that route and resign ASAP. Just do what you can to find another job and get out as quickly and discretely as possible.
It might be unfair, and you will be pissed about it regardless, but I would not raise a big stink about being let go. If you go the legal route you will have a very hard time getting another job. I've seen the cultural mismatch situation before and NOTHING will reverse your situation. There is no amount of work, hours, or intelligence you can show that will cause them to take you back.
Suck it up, leave politely, and move on.
Thanks. Makes sense. In a way it also makes me feel better to know that cultural mismatch is not that uncommon. Doesn't make it right of course.
It happens all the time especially at the BBs. Of course, you should do a self-assessment of yourself after you leave, but I wouldn't be too harsh. Sometimes this stuff is just out of your hands. If somebody hates you and that somebody happens to be your boss then you're screwed.
Also, I would strongly suggest this: ask HR if you can resign immediately with pay through the remaining 30 day period. They'd probably go along with is since they don't want to be sued. In my opinion, you should get out of the office ASAP. Remaining there with nothing to do and everyone looking down on your will only degrade you as a person and make you angrier. Even if HR says no to this proposal, I would still consider resigning immediately.
It reads like English is your second language. At least, that appears obvious from skimming a couple of your posts. If your grammar is reflective of this, especially in work emails, client communication, etc., that's a legitimate red flag. Not entirely fair but something that could only add to cultural incompatibility.
By hunting/fishing comment, I guess you're in Houston. That type of good old boy network is likely hard to crack and is probably more pervasive than just your current bank. In other words, this could be a recurring problem. You might be wise to go to a more culturally diverse city/office like NYC or SF.
Interesting, most U.S. Americans have problems with the spelling of their own language, let alone speak a second....
Judging by this comment and the others in this thread you are defensive and have a shitty attitude. I'm pretty sure that is why you are being let go.
Lmao. The only other time I've ever heard the phrase "U.S. Americans" is, oddly enough...
http://www.youtube.com/embed/WALIARHHLII
I think you need to realize what is done is done. You seem to be caught up with trying to "prove" to the people on this forum it wasn't you but them. It doesn't matter as they were your superiors and are now firing you. You should quit prior to your termination and if you feel the need to take legal matters, you are done in finance. It is reality so questioning it is useless. You have less then 30 days to find an alternative position, I would recommend you stop asking yourself what happened and figure out how to get out of the situation you are now in.
OP, just a question: Were you here on a work visa?
Why would that matter?
Because if you were, then you have to leave the country the day after you leave employment. Consider this your "grace period" if you will. So yes. It is relevant to your situation, provided you were on work visa.
Move quietly. Bankers talk enough as it is, so i'd avoid anything that would harm your reputation further. I'm sorry you're in this spot - it's never easy having to deal with these situations.
What was top bucket for you guys?
.
Your feelings are hurt, understandable. I'd simply quit right now. Your self respect is worth more than going into the office for another 60 days and doing nothing. Whether your performance sucked, they didn't like you, you didn't "click" or whatever, end result is they want someone else. I would have shook their hand and quit on the spot if a bomb was dropped on my lap like that.
Go to another firm and work hard. Shit like this happens all the time. Be grateful you found out that this place wasn't for you instead of working there for years and never going anywhere.
This
If you give them a reason they will fire you, or find a way to fire you, period.
Went from the top ranked in my pay grade in North America to unemployed real fast. You need to reasses what you're doing, determine if it's the right fit, and have enough self awareness to know where you need to improve.
Ohh, and they can do whatever they want. Don't think of legal recourse. That's a battle not worth fighting. Welcome to America and at will employment.
When you were a summer associate, did you work under the same 3 VPs? Why did they give you high ratings before and gave you low ratings 1 year later? Did your attitude towards them change during the course of the year?
No, two of those VP's were associates back then and the other wasn't with the group yet. My attitude was the same as during my internship. Willing to work hard and do whatever it takes.
No
Willing to work hard and do whatever it takes, yet you're being fired for failing to live up to standards and giving your boss lip about "meaningless work" and inefficient time allocation. I'm not sure how they bank on your planet, but I'd posit that roughly 40%+ of analyst work is trivial, mundane, and will likely never be evaluated. I felt a lot of empathy reading this the first time, because it's a tough situation--but your lack of accountability and entitlement in every post following has been unbelievable to me. There is zero rationale backing your side of the argument, and suing would relegate you to the stratum of Americans who (try to) abuse the legal system with petty acrimonies because they're irresponsible. If it were racial, you wouldn't have been brought on in the first place. Please tell us about it if you do though.
You would be well suited to listen to everything SirTrades told you. Use your resources to find a new job, not fabricate reasons to sue a firm that rightfully terminated you.
OP, in the US, seriously there is nothing you can do given you have no documented proof of discrimination. You could consider a relocation to some of the normal countries without at-will employment - luckily enough, there are BBs all over the globe.
Normal? Sorry if you think a company has an obligation to pay you regardless of performance.
Ivan, you are seriously confused. Please look for work outside the USA, maybe in France where it is nearly impossible to fire someone. And as a consequence no one hires anyone either.
God, the sense of entitlement is sickening.
"At will" is not regardless of performance. As someone pointed out, "At will" means that you can be fired for no reason at all or because it's raining on a Thursday.
Having worked in IB for a long time already, I sort of know how it works, my friend.
What is typical of the US' bankers? They are usually very well educated and intelligent people, who are really committed and ready to work very, very hard. They usually go a long way to reach some work-related goals, often delivering 100%+. All these qualities are valuable in investment banking.
At the same time, however, American bankers agree to give in to anything that comes from their employer. Employer is considered to be godlike, while employee is considered to be nothing more than a resource (or, at higher levels, a unit). It's like this in all aspects: reneging on an accepted offer is considered nearly a crime (while banks themselves recall their offers left, right and center), trying to protect your rights when the bank tries to offload you is considered an end of career in finance, and so on.
That is what is called a "mentality".
Where I am, I also have to work hard, and bonuses are also fully discretionary (so, if I don't perform, I won't be paid a good bonus), and all key players are also the same as in NY (plus local players). Main difference is, that here, they can't get rid of me "because it is raining", period. Employment is at-will only for employees, and employers should operate in accordance with labor legislation.
What does profitability have to do with anything? People are laid off during good times and bad. You said yourself you had a very bad mid year review. Maybe this wasn't a vendetta, but truly a performance issue.
I'll say it again, I empathize with the OP, but this discussion isn't going to turn the clock back or help you. You worked for dicks, be glad this happened. In 5 years when you are with another firm and happy you will thank them.
Amen.
Thanks everybody. It helps hearing people's different opinions. A couple of the potential offers are luckily closing in so hopefully I will be out before the 30 days are up.
Lol. Further proof that going from MBA to sellside banking is the most undesirable option imaginable. Good gawd; i would rather commit seppuku than do banking after 2 years at a top b-school.
When I confronted the staffer and asked explanations on why I was told by the group head "there is pressure on headcount" as an explanation to the decision of not giving me a chance, and at the same time I had noticed a job ad listed to replace me, the staffer said: "well, pressure on head count doesn't mean nobody is irreplaceable, I am pretty sure I would lose my job too if somebody better came along".
With that said, how can i-banks hope to foster a real team work environment? Also, there is something majorly wrong in the recruiting system if one year after hiring somebody who beat the competition of the top students from all over the best MBA schools in the country and that you have given an offer to after having him as an intern, you feel the need to let him go because "the bar is too high".
They are likely giving you these explanations because they are trying to be nice. You're putting them in a really awkward spot by continually probing them about why you are being let go. No one wants to sit down and explain to you why they think you weren't good at your job, they expect you to react maturely and move on.
The fact that you got fired doesn't have to be some big conspiracy. People get fired everyday, and usually it's because of poor performance. This is a fruitless adventure for you.
How big was your North American IBD associate class and how many have left/resigned/been laid off after 1.5 years?
Honestly, you should just elect for the 30 days to expire and let them lay you off. If you resign, you will forfeit your 401k company match whereas that vests if you get laid off.
About 40 started. Roughly 8-10 are gone. What about the FINRA registration showing termination as opposed to resignation?
LOL. Dude, it is a buyers market. You didn't fit in. Honestly, the more you whine and complain in this post the more I can see why they would shit can you. Move on already. You weren't a good fit and they let you know.
Do you get into this type of discussion every time you get dumped? Jesus.
I keep reading that you are hinting that your group members are racist. If so, not acceptable. But if it is just that they don't like you as an individual, not much you can do about that.
Start hustling, networking, etc. I'm a JD/MBA but I wouldn't want to make a lawsuit out of this -- even if you get a settlement, you could tarnish your rep on the street.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Spend all the time complaining here on getting a job instead :-) Hope you won't have too many MBA debts.
On cultural misfit comment ? Which part of the world you belong ?
Northern Africa/Middle East
You kidnapped my daugther. I told you I was gonna get you.
OP: youve been canned...you clearly didnt hustle..you dont get lunch..its cancelled.
move on, find a gig, stop playing the "race card" because it's going to get you no where in the world of finance. people do not care about the color of your skin or ethnicity..they care if you can bust your ass for them, and make them money..welcome to the world of shit eating...the further up the chain you move, the less you have to eat.
OP is one of the main reasons I left banking. Too many idiot self-absorbed freshly minted associates who know nothing about the industry they're entering and know even less about how the world works.
Yes, this is legal. Welcome to banking. It's rough out there, but you will land on your feet coming from a BB. Focus on if there is anything you can improve on, and get the rubber to the road. Good luck.
Hey man I'm just a college student and there's absolutely no insight I could ever give you. I just wanted to offer my condolences and let you know that being an associate is a lot bigger of a deal than a lot of people make it on this forum and that your exit opportunities should be really good if you're coming from an M&A background. I wish you the best of luck, and we all wish the economy would just get better lol
Man that sucks to hear. I too would be angry as hell if I was in your position. But in the end, I guess there's no going back. So find another position and forget about those jerks.
What is it with people always playing the race card when they get in trouble? Your race has nothing to do with this.
Feel for you OP, but from 99% of your posts it sounds like you have a bad attitude, and would be a pain in the ass to work with. If your bank has "pressure on headcount" as you noted above, then you'd be one of the first to let go. Banking layoffs are rough, and you gave them enough of a reason to cut you.
Move on, and get over it.
Jesus OP you better hope that your future employer never fvcking reads this shit. Just from reading this it is immediately apparent why you were let go.
So I skipped most of these responses after the first few (tl;dr), but I have to ask: If you work with a bunch of people that you think are prejudice/racist/sexist/whatever and you think that they are aiming these feelings towards you, why the fuck are you trying to do anything to fight the termination? You should want to get the hell out of the group.firm. It is damn near impossible to prove that they were actively discriminating against you. Even the emails you said you saved would probably not hold up in court. Why would you even want to move laterally if you think this is the culture at your bank?
Cut your losses and move on. There is NO reason to try and fight this. It can only end badly. Even if you win, you can kiss any chance of working for another bank good bye. You think they said things insulting about you when you were around? Wait to hear what they would say behind your back to their friends at other firms. What happened to you really sucks, but it's life. It sure as hell isn't fair, but it can only get worse if you try and escalate this thing. Take another job, regroup, bust your ass, and things will eventually work out.
Northsider, clearly those are not US labor laws - I was talking about the fact, that something that is perfectly legal in the USA, could in some cases be absolutely illegal elsewhere.
And the reasoning is obvious: this provides people with additional job security and the budget with additional income (lower unemployment, higher social taxes paid, higher income tax paid, higher consumer spending etc.). If people lose their job, they lose means to fund their living, they lose means to serve their debts - all this leads to huge social problems (which are not desireable).
Besides, that is the first and the most imoprtant role of any government - to try to make life of its citizens better, to make sure their rights are protected etc. From this standpoint, I fully agree that having such a choice on hand (make it cheaper for the business or make people more protected at the expense of the business), the Government should opt for the route #2 (otherwise it is not the government, but rather a plain vanilla business lobby organization without any social obligations). If you disagree and think, that the role of the government is to serve the interests of the business at the expense of the people, then I am unsure why you - Americans - continue to vote for these political leaders. It doesn't seem very logical.
Actually, if you look a bit deeper, you will see: what is peculiar of America is a combination of very pro-business laws and very high income tax levels (i.e., the Government does whatever possible to help financial conglomerates, while funding government spending out of the employee's income tax). Fair enough, if you support this system and vote for it, that's a democracy, you get what you choose. But for a foreigner, this is not always easy to understand WHY you support such a system, honestly :) Based on logic, someone who is an employee (and not business owner), should always support lower personal income tax and more job security at the expense of the business, who may bear the burden instead. It would stimulate employees to work as efficiently as possible (with low income tax, there is a higher marginal benefit of going extra mile for your employer, as you take home higher proportion of incentive payments etc.) - and it would also make employers focus more on other operational efficiency improvements, less related to headcount trimming.
This is precisely the point: employers and employees both have disparate ideas of what the government agenda should be. There is no better explanation for why the realm of government ought to be limited to the greatest extent possible.
I speak not for the rest of "Americans", but I equally despise the pro-business laws that provide enormous tax-writeoffs for large businesses and promote uneconomical behavior and the pro-consumer laws that interfere with the voluntarily arranged contracts between two parties. Employers shout not be obligated to pay anyone anything, just as I, as a consumer, should not be forced to purchase something at a store; nor should they be the beneficiaries of onerous regulations that prevent new entrats and reduce free competition or ridiculous tax incentives so that they pay fewer dollars to the government relative to peer companies.
The government has no business insulating employers or employees from the natural forces of voluntary contracts.
Cliffnotes for everyone that missed it:
-OP may have a case against illegal termination if he is, as i suspected, pregnant and got terminated because his hormones are flowing like a girl -Ivan is a communist or socialist...i could never get those two right -TNA and NorthSide and Rufio offering words of wisdom -BlackHat chiming in with a funny youtube link
Just another normal thread. Moving on.
Excellent tl;dr recap. It's a shame not more people actually read posts on a FORUM before they reply. A good example is the ER modeling exam people keep requesting in an old thread that has the link posted on every page.
Have a SB. This is exactly how I feel.
On a side note, reading EVERYTHING Ivan has written only reassures me of the reason Europe is fucked.
Reading this makes me want to fire you and you dont even work for me.
Thank you. Have a nice day!
You're very snippy... and you have a thin skin. Just because something is said that you don't like or agree with does not mean it requires a bitchy response.
Let's see if you're able to refrain from making a snippy remark back to me...
This happened to me many years ago. I LEARNED THE HARD WAY. I was told, with respect, that I should look for another job and that the clock was ticking. I did not find another job and I thought I could turn things around (how naive!) When the day came I was escorted out of the building. I felt like a failure..
I pulled myself together and told myself that out of this failure will come success. As I went through interviews and the job search I had to keep fielding questions about what was written on my U-4, this made getting a job that much more difficult as well as being unemployed at the time. In hindsight, they told me what the deal was and all I had to do was listen and take action - they were giving me advanced notice and a headstart. I learned many valuable lessons from that experience: I wasn't as great as I thought I was, seek trusted advice, accept certain things and take action quickly, and be grateful for the little favors provided along the way. I am where I am today in large part because of my failures. I have the utmost respect for that firm.
Moral of the Story: I should have found a job ASAP, resigned, and not have made it harder on myself.
J-CFP, been through a similar situation. Wondering how you tackled defending what was written on your U4 ? and was anything demeaning written by the employer at all in the first place ? Understand that the new employer might check your U4 and any language suggesting you were not fit for the previous position might hurt your chances getting employed elsewhere.
Please stop updating this miserable thread...
And it happened.
SHOTS FIRED. I called this shit.
Nice.
Neutron bomb dropped.
Yeah, this was pretty amusing. Interesting how there are two sides to every story.
I don't get it. They're basically giving you two months' severance and letting you keep your job during that time so you can say you're still employed when you interview elsewhere. Seems fair to me.
And that to me is what screams international student. Most international students are given an advance on notice about being laid off so they can hustle, find a new job in the USA or get rid of their apartment/things and get on out so they don't over stay their visa. Most senior managers take some sort of pity when laying internationals off, and judging by the above comment, he was an international. Whether he is on green card or not is none of my concern. But a giant chip on your shoulder + not doing work + all around being a dick screams wanting to get laid off.
I think people here are ignoring the more important issues because they have their own political prejudices coming into the situation. This is about your life, not some stupid fucking policy issue.
If there are really racist and prejudicial emails that you have records of I would go see an attorney and have them judge whether you have a cause for a lawsuit. If the lawyer says you do --
Then I would go to your group head and let him know that you believe that you have been the victim of unfair discrimination and that you have documented evidence to show that. This is important, don't go to HR first (though you already may have), and don't say you are threatening a lawsuit. Instead hint that you want things to work out, but you feel like you haven't been given a fair chance. Say that you believe that it's unlikely you'll get a fair chance in the current group, and hint that the firm should either transfer you to another office or provide you with adequate severance. If he tells you to get lost, then lodge a formal complaint with HR and have your attorney begin the process of starting a lawsuit.
I've seen people threaten lawsuits before and the result was that they got pretty much what they wanted. In that case, the guy didn't even have cause. If you have real cause (that is documented via email, and this is key), the firm will pay you to go away. The key is making it clear you've been treated unfairly and want a settlement and not getting to the point of actually suing.
People here will tell you that the industry is small, that you'll never work in it again - it's possible; but on the other hand Wall Street is full of scumbags, many of whom have gotten multiple chances.
On the other hand, if the lawyer says you've got nothing, then just go find another job.
1) The emails were asking about a candidate and her fit within a group. She maybe, might have been "discriminated" against.
2) This dude isn't a protected class. He isn't "special" according to the law.
3) Someone who works with this guy just basically blew up his spot.
4) He had a horrible mid year review and a bad end of year review. Enough paperwork to fire someone.
5) Hint at a lawsuit? I'd have that person escort out by security and then I would make some calls. Get the fuck out of here.
From what I read, there were emails from people in the group making fun of him for his ethnicity and religion. The emails about the female recruit were an additional point. Maybe I'm misremembering (don't care enough to find the original post that referred this), but if that's the case, then yeah, he too would have been discriminated against. And also, if he was discriminated against, the emails about the other candidate would fit well within evidence suggesting that the overall workplace was a discriminatory and prejudicial environment.
Regardless of which, if you read the above, you'll note that I said he should go talk to a lawyer first. And by the way, you do know that telling somebody who says they've been discriminated against and are going to sue that you're going to have "security escort them out" is illegal, right? It's called retaliation. So if that was your response to number 5, if you worked at a global corporation, there's a good chance that any halfway decent general counsel would make sure YOU never worked again. (Seriously, I've seen senior execs fired for way way less. If nothing else, your response to 5 shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.) If this is in any way unclear or you're wondering if I'm making it up: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/facts-retal.cfm
Seriously, sometimes the people here...
Anyways, like I said, he should go talk to a lawyer, who can tell him if he has a case.
Wait, did someone he works with out him? I'm confused...
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