Richard Ivey MBA- worth it?

Hello all,

I am an international student with 2+ years experience in Equity Research. I plan to move to Canada and work there in similar field after MBA and I got into Ivey's FT MBA program with 30% scholarship. The cost is still pretty high (USD 50k+ Living exp).

Considering I will have to cover the entire expense with debt, I would love to hear some opinion on whether this investment would be worth it.

Thanks in advance!

 

Are you just looking at Canada or are you also considering other options? It is the best MBA program in Canada, but my only concern would be you financing the entire thing through debt. That in mind, I have a few questions: 1. Is it a 30% recurring scholarship for the 2 years? 2. Where are you getting this debt from? Is a Canadian bank helping you finance this debt or are you getting loans internationally? 3. Do you have any contacts in the industry/prospects for a job? Where do you want to be working? 4. Are you going to be working while you're at school? Do you have family in Canada? 5. Why are you looking into Canada rather than the States or other countries? 6. Where do you currently reside?

 

To answer your questions: Ivey is a one year program, the scholarship covers 30% of entire tuition. I don't have a co-signer, so I'll have to figure this out yet, but the interest expense will be pretty high if I have to obtain the loan internationally. I want to work in buy-side equity research. Ivey's alumni+ networking prospects are pretty strong from my research, still would love to hear some opinion on this part.

I don't have any dependable right now. The reason I'm looking into Canada is because of its easy to obtain work permit and PR. I am from a South Asian country and going to states or other countries for living there permanently is more difficult for me.

Getting some insights into Ivey's image in financial sector of Canada and the job market there would be great.

 

They're top shelf in Canada but don't have much recognition outside of that. I've actually been fairly impressed by their value investing program which is up and coming. Still, I don't think a degree from Ivey would help you land a job in the U.S.

Keep in mind the equity research market is pretty small in Canada, so you're only looking at a handful of potential employers. Compensation also tends to be lower in Canada. You need to be very sure that you can land a job otherwise the ROI on the degree will be poor.

 

I liked their value investing program a lot. And I don't plan on going to the US either.

If I consider Equity research wings of Big banks+ Sell side and Buy side firms together- is it still very small? I saw RBC, TD, Scotiabank recruiting a lot from Ivey. Also some ivey alumns are working at BlackRock, Morgan Stanley Canada. So I believe it won't be absolutely impossible to land a job in the industry given I network properly. What do you think?

 
If I consider Equity research wings of Big banks+ Sell side and Buy side firms together- is it still very small?

It's pretty concentrated and there aren't that many opportunities outside of that. It's very different than say New York or London where there are literally hundreds of firms. If you strike out on landing a job at one of the big Canadian firms then you won't have many other opportunities.

Again, it's not impossible by any stretch, but be warned that this is a high risk/reward proposition. As another poster mentioned, you also need to research your debt options. Most banks won't lend to international students without a guarantee by the school.

 

I'm going to tackle a few points here.

Firstly, to @models_and_bottles' points, about there not being many opportunities, you obviously are unaware of Ivey's program at all. I'm a student in their undergrad program and I would say a good 35% of the students in my cohort have placed IB (Would say roughly 15% of those students are at BB's/EB's in the East/West cost in the US - and others at MM firms in New York). Again, definitely not as solid as an American target (where you will have more opportunities, but that's a given, you're in the States for fuck sake), however, ALL BB's and EB's recruit out of Ivey.

Biggest lol @ "If you strike out on landing a job at one of the big Canadian firms then you won't have many other opportunities" --> not true at all.

Again, definitely high risk (only because of the amount of debt you're taking as well as you not having valid Canadian experience/language barrier/no co-signor for debt in Canada, and a number of other reasons including the fact that you have an international passport and getting sponsored from an American firm would be tough as hell)

But I would definitely say that you have a solid shot of landing a job through Ivey. Granted, it may be tougher because you're international, definitely not impossible. (Ivey has a really strong network)

Another interesting point for you to note is that TD bank offers special "Ivey" loans to MBA students with a lowered interest rate and pretty flexible repayment covenants that would be worth looking into and negotiating before coming here. You could get someone back home to co-sign.

Anyways, goodluck, and PM me for more info.

 
Best Response
Firstly, to @models_and_bottles' points, about there not being many opportunities, you obviously are unaware of Ivey's program at all. I'm a student in their undergrad program

Always cute when the undergrads try to lecture people that have been in the industry for a while.

Again, definitely not as solid as an American target

The exact point I made in my post.

ALL BB's and EB's recruit out of Ivey.

Yes, all the CANADIAN BBs and EBs recruit out of Ivey. That's a much smaller pool than firms which recruit at a top U.S. MBA program.

What do you think the OP's chances of landing a job are as a non-Canadian MBA student from SE Asia? Especially if his/her English isn't 100%? Probably a lot smaller than a native who has experience in the Canadian market.

Granted, it may be tougher because you're international

Again, go back and read the responses. This was the exact point we were making. The OP is talking about making a >$100k bet on a very uncertain opportunity. If the OP can't find a good job in Canada it will put him/her in a bad spot financially. We're giving the OP things to think about rather than pumping sunshine as you're doing.

 

Realize my post came off as a little aggressive, definitely wasn't trying to lecture you. Also I disagree with the point that just ALL CANADIAN BB's and EB's recruit out of Ivey - however, you will see majority of postings from BB's and EB's (CS, JPM, GS, etc.) that are for postings in Canada. There are a lot of opportunities in the same BB's and EB's in the States, but sponsoring becomes a huge issue here. From what I gather they prefer to hire Canadian citizens because that is easier for them.

Also seems like a lot of our points coincide and are making similar arguments.

To OP - I definitely don't want you to take my post as 'encouragement' to come here but instead take it with a grain of salt. As models and bottles alluded to earlier, I am currently still an undergrad and you should definitely reach out to more Canadians that are currently in the industry.

I would highly recommend reaching out to Ivey MBA graduates through LinkedIn, as well as other international students that you may know that have moved to Canada.

To summarize, (just for the record and just so that everyone is clear on this), your decision to move here is a highly risky one for the following reasons:

1) Financing: It is highly unlikely that you will have a co-signor, and that banks will lend you money. You should definitely be proactive and figure out repayment options, as well as see if you can find a family member that can co-sign for you sitting in the country you're from. (Perhaps a family member). I would also look for alternative methods of financing such as subsidies from the government in your local country, Ivey (A good option), and perhaps the Canadian government (although I think that would be a stretch).

2) Job search: Although Ivey has strong alumni in the States as well as Canada, as Models and Bottles alluded to, this is a risky option as there is a lot of variability in recruiting YOY and it is a black box. Things such as your English, your background, your profile, place of origin, and other small things may be the deciding factor in if you get a job or not.

Furthermore, I would highly recommend not being fixated on one job prospect (buy-side research), but be open to many opportunities if you came here in the likely scenario that it doesn't end up happening.

Best of luck to you.

 

models_and_bottles and wholetthedogsouts Thank you very much for both of your input. So taking the debt is the one of the biggest concerns here.

Can you tell me whether there is any other alternative way to break into Buy side in Canada? Since I'm an international student, my research says the network I can obtain through an MBA is the strongest resource out there. But am I missing any other option? Also for someone who is interested in Equity Research and has experience in the field, what other career options are there (just to widen the job search area)?

 
Can you tell me whether there is any other alternative way to break into Buy side in Canada? Since I'm an international student, my research says the network I can obtain through an MBA is the strongest resource out there. But am I missing any other option? Also for someone who is interested in Equity Research and has experience in the field, what other career options are there (just to widen the job search area)?

I don't think there is any easy way. Obviously, a MBA from Ivey is one route, but this doesn't guarantee you a job in the industry. The one advantage you do have is your background. If you're coming from one of the larger SE Asia countries (i.e. Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia) you might be appealing to an international or especially emerging markets manager.

Importantly, any firm you interview with is going to want to understand your motivation for moving. Do you have family in Canada ? Are you trying to make a permanent move? Just doing it for money? Firms don't want to hire international employees that are likely to move back home in a few years. If you don't have an existing connection to Canada you need to prepare a good explanation for why you want to move there long term.

But am I missing any other option? Also for someone who is interested in Equity Research and has experience in the field, what other career options are there (just to widen the job search area)?

corporate finance, corporate banking, financial advisory. There are a lot of options.

see if you can find a family member that can co-sign for you sitting in the country you're from.

Getting a family member to cosign most likely wouldn't help the OP with the Canadian banks. Any lender is going to be concerned about collectability with an international student, i.e. what's to prevent the student from returning home and bailing on their loan after graduation.

 

A few things to add to what others have said.

Ivey is great school and the undergrad level, the school does get awesome OCR and places really well not only in Canada, but also in the US. However, as it's often the case, placements (and student quality) does take a step back at the MBA level. Yes it is still Canada's top MBA program and you still see a lot of the senior folks with Ivey's MBAs, but top placements are pretty rare nowadays and instead tend to come almost exclusively from M7 + LBS / INSEAD. Since I graduated college in 07 and started working, cannot think of a single person that did IBD / PE / AM who went a Canadian MBA (Ivey or otherwise). Not to say that it will be impossible to recruit into a top bank / buy-side firm, but competition will be fierce from Canadian citizens with preferred credentials.

Visa might also be an issue. At the undergrad level, everyone who studies at a Canadian university receives a 3-year post graduation Visa at the end of which you can get permanent residency (none of which require employer sponsorship). As a results, banks don't sponsor for Visa. I am not 100% sure, but I thought you only get a year post grad Visa by doing a 1-year MBA so you would likely need sponsorship.

Lastly, Canadian banks (and employer in generals) are much more open to promoting analyst straight and as a results, there's much less recruitment at the MBA level. For IBD, associate classes are generally only 20-25% of the size of analyst classes.

 

Considering the replies, I am wondering what happens to the 150 people who get into the program each year. The school recruits roughly 30% from South Asian Countries especially India. How do these people survive with student debt and all the competition from big US schools?

So M7 MBA with 100k+ debt> Ivey MBA with 60k+ debt for getting a job in the AM/PE in Canada?

 
The school recruits roughly 30% from South Asian Countries especially India. How do these people survive with student debt and all the competition from big US schools?

A lot of the Asian students I met in my U.S. MBA program had either 1) family money 2) sponsorship by their company or 3) worked at a very high paying job before. My school also had a program where they would guarantee some international students' debt, which allowed these students to borrow in the U.S. at a reasonable rate.

So M7 MBA with 100k+ debt> Ivey MBA with 60k+ debt for getting a job in the AM/PE in Canada?

Yes.

 

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