High GMAT, Crap GPA: Any Chance at M7?
Hey WSO,
I'll be heading into my final year in college and have been considering applying to some top MBA programs. Specifically, MBA programs that admit college seniors. I'm curious of my chances because I have no idea given my background. My stats are below. Major thanks in advance and I appreciate any feedback.
APPLYING TO THE FOLLOWING PROGRAMS -
Stanford GSB - Deferred Admission
HBS "2+2" Program
UPenn Wharton
UChicago Booth
MIT Sloan
Dartmouth Tuck
London Business School (very interested in European programs, too)
BACKGROUND
Age: 21
Nationality: African American (not that it mattes, but I heard the 2+2 program was geared towards diversity so IDK)
Sex: Female
Socioecon. Status: Low-Income, lived in poverty for a bit (so hoping for some heavy scholarship aid)
ACADEMICS
School: Top Liberal Arts College (i.e. Vassar, Wesleyan)
Education: Anthropology Major, Mathematics Minor
GPA: 2.0* (extenuating circumstances involving medical leave of absence, massive blemish on profile, I know)
GMAT: 760
PRE-MBA PROGRAMS
Attended prestigious summer developmental programs at business schools to see if and MBA was a good fit for me:
HBS Summer Venture in Management Program
Stanford GSB Summer Institute for General Management
Chicago Booth Summer Business Scholars
WORK EXPERIENCE
Interning at a top Tech Firm this summer (i.e. Facebook, Twitter) in non-tech, business oriented role.
EXTRA-CURRICULAR ACTIVITIES
Student Government Class Representative
3-Year Varsity Lacrosse Athlete (Nationally Ranked)
Significant activism with regards to diversity (race, gender, and socioeconomic status) in higher education. I've held leadership roles in and off campus, participated in conferences, gained national awards, recognition, etc)
POST MBA GOALS
Hoping for MBB Consulting, Corporate Development/Strategy, IB
So, I guess my main questions would be:
1. Do I stand a fighting chance with these competitive MBA programs as an incoming college senior with a high GMAT, low GPA mix?
2. Is there anyway to credibly list my circumstances involving my medical leave to the admissions committee?
3. Would you guys advise me to apply Round 1, 2, or 3?
I'm also aware that general consensus would advise me to wait to apply to MBA programs to distance myself from my poor academic performance, but I'd really like to go for this.
Whatchathink?
Why not a masters?
I'm not entirely interested in going into a Masters or MBA program directly after college. My hope was that I would defer for 2-3 years, enter the workforce, and then come back for the MBA with a bit of experience. That being said, I'd like get the MBA application process out of the way now and I've heard only great things about M7 programs, specifically HBS 2+2 so I wanted to give it a go.
bump
More thoughts please? Don't be shy :P
Personally, I think you have 0 chance at getting in this year, since direct to MBA programs, 2+2, etc. are reserved for people with high GPAs. However, I think you'd actually stand a great chance at an M7 in a few years if you have solid WE, paired with the 760 GMAT and URM status (GPA matters less the further out of college you get). My recommendation is not to bother applying this year and wait 'till later.
Sorry, Vassar IS a top liberal arts college I went there, and everyone I know who has applied to business school (and was in my class at HBS and classes after me) have done really well. Search Vassar & MBA on LinkedIn and you will see some hot profiles from the very top MBA programs. Even here on WSO, I can point to someone (and you know who you are)
PeriwinkleProse The reality is that your GPA is pretty weak, but there's no harm in trying -- it absolutely does not hurt your chances if you apply to a deferred admit program, don't get in, and then reapply to the regular program down the road. That's been documented in the HBS admissions blog, for example.
I don't know if they will buy the "extenuating circumstances" argument -- it seems like they see this stuff a lot. So that might argue for an alternative transcript. (that's what I did, back in the day, and it worked) Your smarts are absolutely no question -- that GMAT is terrific. Whatever you do: don't let it expire
If you do decide to apply, apply to the latest round possible, so you can try to get your grades up. The deferred admit programs want to see as much data as they can, and they do NOT favor round 1 over round 3.
One question: did you attend all 3 of those summer programs? (sorry, I am on the west coast and it's early for me if I read wrong.)
My $0.2: I actually think you might be competitive for a program like Harvard 2+2 although your GPA is no where in range with what Harvard admits. Being a woman and racial minority gives you a slight advantage in the game but your 760 gmat score will definitely be your trump card. I'm pretty sure only 1% of African Americans even score over 700 on the GMAT. Business schools are scrambling just to find black students around the 700 benchmark and you've exceeded that tremendously. Congrats on the score. Like matayo mentioned, I'd list your medical issues in the optional essay Harvard offers. You're definitely fighting an uphill battle but I think you stand a good chance at HBS and GSB.
Do you have a citation for that 1% statistic? I wasn't aware these breakdowns were even available...
Yeah, it's actually directly from the GMAC website. There are annual PDF documents published about Key Diversity Statistics (GMAT/GPA) for African Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Native Americans. Could not find Asian Americans and Caucasians but I'm sure it's out there somewhere. For the "only 1% of African Americans scoring above a 700 GMAT" comment, here is the 2014 Data: http://www.gmac.com/~/media/Files/gmac/Research/diversity-enrollment/ty…
Thanks for the feedback. @matayo 1. I was under the impression that it might not matter what round I applied to given that I am competing for a spot in a future MBA class and not the current one at Harvard and Stanford. On Harvard's website it mentions that it doesn't matter when 2+2 candidates apply but I wanted to check with others on WSO to see if this is really the case. 2. My college is actually higher ranked than Vassar and Wesleyan. It's not Williams but I'd argue that it is a top liberal arts college. Relatively speaking rank and status between LACs are fairly comparable but I get what you mean.
Sarah2WS I appreciate the advice. I'm working on creating a strong essay and recommendations to supplement my GMAT. I'm praying it's enough.
More comments on my chances would be great. I haven't been able to find many similar past applicants with my stats and I'm hoping WSO has some insight?
my 2 cent question- why have you gone to all these pre-MBA camps but only declared an anthropology major & math minor?
Honestly, I have no idea how your application will go. 2.0 is the lowest gpa I've seen, but 760 is the highest black female GMAT I've seen...I guess it'll depend on how good you are at explaining the circumstances of the 2.0
@whattherock I attend a small liberal arts college, so I don't really have access to more quantitative majors or courses like Accounting, Finance, or Business. I genuinely like Anthro and the math minor felt like enough to fulfill the "analytical" requirement of grad school programs.
Betsy Massar Thanks for the honest opinion. And to clarify, no, I didn't attend all the pre-MBA programs. I listed those three to give examples of the type of program I attended and to have some anonymity.
Really appreciating the responses guys.
Math minor is cool. How about Econ though, they got no Economics?? I'm stretching it a little more, since you're towards the end of your major and I wouldn't imagine you change the major now. But I think this is a good question to think about.
HBS and GSB do not have full-rides often. As an URM you'd get a better chance, but still, you know,
Frankly I think your URM status gives you a huge leg up. Otherwise you must grind until b-school surrender on your high-fly GMAT. and luckily your GMAT is above the average GMAT for every MBA program out there~
But if I was you, I'd feel stupid to enter a no-defer program even if admitted (Booth/Wharton). HBS/GSB though are harder on GPA. I don't know about MIT Sloan, I thought they can allow deferrals.
If you attend a no-defer program, you'd really have nothing to support your profile for a MBA associate job, and your GPA will also be more recent than if you worked a few years and then matriculate into MBA programs.
I think you could try to rebrand with a MSF or Master in Management-- get a good b-school, rock that GPA to near 4.0 and destroy your undergrad GPA deficiency, and they'd appreciate your high GMAT much more than your eye-popping low GPA.
@whattherock" I was actually considering a Masters in Management program and was looking at London Business School. I have no idea how I might fair in the European admissions system but I am very familiar with the area (family ties in UK). What do you think?
Any more opinions on my chances at an deferred MBA program would be great, please!
a paraphrased from an Admissions Director from one of the UC b-schools:
"If you're admitted to an MBA program right out of undergrad, you must be golden. Otherwise you should starting to ask if this MBA is legit."
Granting that you're aiming for the best of the best MBA programs, you should ask why you're golden with that 2.0 GPA.
Certainly you're more golden if you don't let that GMAT expire and has a rejuvenating high GPA from a quick Master's, and you could also get big financial aids from the GMAT-chasers
I don't think you stand a chance at any M7 business schools straight out of undergrad school, but if you get 3+ years of quality work experience, then maybe they would glance at your application. No offense, but the 2.0 gpa and 760 GMAT tells me and will tell the adcoms that you are lazy, but very intelligent. Not saying you are lazy, but thats what the stats show that. Every single person that is in your position will say that they had some major health issue or there was a death in the family and that is why their GPA is so low, so unfortunately a 2.0 GPA is just that, a 2.0, with no asterix next to it that makes it all better.
MBA schools put less weight on your GPA once you have a few years of work experience and they will put more weight on your GMAT. However you would still have a 2.0 GPA in Anthropology, so you would probably only have a very slim chance at getting into any of the schools you listed even with WE, but a decent shot at a top 25.
Whattherock had a great idea in the Master in Management program. I would strongly recommend applying to top MMS programs and getting a bomb GPA. That will more than make up for you undergrad GPA. Also, top MMS programs create some great opportunities for any discipline you want to work in (consulting, IB, CF, big4), so you would defiantly have some high quality work experience before applying for a MBA (assuming you still want to do that) and you would have good starting salary (60k+). This is just off the top of my head, but if you applied to UVA, Duke, UMich, and Notre Dame's MMS then you would get in somewhere. You could also apply to MMS programs as a backup plan for next year.
ja21 I've heard of MBA applicants with below 3.0 GPAs gaining admission to M7 programs, including H/S/W, granted their remaining application is stellar. I've worked really hard to distance myself from my grades and I'm hoping that will be reflected in my good college, top internship experience, and high GMAT. I was hospitalized for quite some time this year and last and am still coping. That said, I plan to keep a 4.0 GPA to show some progress my final year in school and plan to apply at round 3. By then my GPA might be around a 3.0. Not entirely promising but it's the best I can do with what I've got.
I will say that I am now considering MiM programs a bit more seriously. I'd really like to explore strategy consulting and a MiM would help with job prospects.
you dont have work experiences (1 internship would be a weak sample, don't you think?) and there is not too many ways to work around it. I think that's nuff said..
I think it's a scary job world, but if you can weather through the storms upfront, you'll become much more competitive for high profile MBAs.
Actually I think you get a better chance at MiM / MSF scholarships. they're GMAT-heavier because MiM/MSF don't expect work experiences, which fits your profile, and may also give you a better recruiting crowd (OCR) and a chance to revive your GPA.
nuff said~ if you want to apply deferrals, go ahead and nobody will deny you until you submit the apps. just don't burn your recommenders..
Adcoms take into account your recent GPA, so if you have a solid gpa in your last few semesters then that would help a lot for MIM programs. A bunch of the MIM programs (UVA, Notre Dame, UM) are strictly for non-business majors, which means less competition for you. Good luck
To me the bigger question is what do you want the MBA for? There is a reason that most people have 3+ years of experience when they enroll. If you go direct to MBA with no work experience you will not be competitive for ANY traditional post-MBA role. No bank or consulting firm will hire you as an associate. And you will have a hard time finding traditional entry level roles because you will be overqualified. There might be a role where the decision makes sense for you but do you have a solid plan here? Remember B-School is NOT like law school or med school in that you go to school to prepare you for the experience - B-School is meant to draw on you experience and those of your classmates.
Even the 2+2 programs I think carry a bit of the same stigma (you'll only have 2 years of experience competing with people who have 5 or more years while recruiting). But at least then you have SOME experience.
A Masters in Management or Masters in Finance fills this gap nicely - it will help you find a good solid job for now, allow you to bring up that GPA and show you can do the work and set the stage for an MBA later. If you scored good grades and had 3 years experience at a name brand I'd guess you would be a stellar candidate for HBS or GSB, in addition to the other M7 programs.
The non-defer schools don't really take people with 0 experience, even if they say that they do - they just don't want to close the door on that 'perfect potential candidate' down the line - someone who has probably started and sold a successful business IN undergrad (or before) and has all the other stats.
My main issue with attaining at MiM is the cost associated with it. I will consider MiM programs but only in addition to applying for HBS 2+2 and Stanford GSB deferred.
Does anyone think I might stand a chance at London Business Schools Masters in Management program or HEC Paris Masters in Management program?
LBS does a free profile eval for the MBA, they may do the same for the MiM, I'd call and ask. It's not well advertised. I actually did it for the MBA, they told me I was attractive but low on work experience (which made me chuckle, I'm 30 and ended up on further consideration at HBS and accepted at Booth, so take it with a grain of salt). That being said if it's available it is a no brainer to get their opinion.
European programs in my experience have defined GPA cut offs (unlike most US grad programs), most around 3.3. So unless you find something that I haven't seen yet, I don't think that will work tbh.
..
^Thanks, will check that out.
I just realized that Yale offers a college senior admissions program for the MBA called "Silver Scholars". I'm hoping I might stand a better chance because their GPA range is a tad lower than HBS, GSB, and Wharton. So, I'll give that a try too.
Worth looking into but keep in mind that Yale's MBA is significantly less well regarded than it's undergrad program. It's definitely not considered equivalent to HBS, Stanford, Wharton, Booth, Tuck, Columbia Kellogg, MIT. It may be considered equivalent to the other top 15 schools by some (i.e. Darden, Duke, etc) but there is still typically a distinction. I think they're on the up but they're not cracking the top 7 anytime soon.
That being said, if your interest is social enterprise they are an excellent choice and they're aiming to be the 'most global' program which is interesting. From what I hear they have an advanced masters degree for international students who already have their MBA, giving an incentive for internationals to come and share their experiences with current MBA students. And you still get the Yale name. But on campus recruiting is definitely not on par with the M7 and you still have the lack of experience to deal with. Trust me, this is real, if you don't have decent work experience you will definitely be at a disadvantage in MBA recruiting.
You need to also consider Kellogg's MMS program. They take non business kids only, and with your GMAT I'd say you have a great shot. Kellogg is also notorious for looking at a candidate 'holistically' (and they mean it).
shitty GPA, high GMAT, great work exp = dinged at every top 10 b-school? (Originally Posted: 04/08/2007)
how important is the GPA, relative to those other factors? would a candidate fitting this profile be screwed?
how shitty?
2.5-3.0, and not in a difficult major like physics or CS
*edit: from a definite ivy-caliber school
sorry to kind of jump in here, but I was wondering pretty much the same thing, only a slight difference...
good work experience, high GMAT, possesses decent analytical skills, but GPA roughly 3.1 (engineering major from Ivy)? Can anyone, based on their experience, substantiate how heavily GPA is weighted relative to these other factors. And aside of that, in the application, how important are recommendations and essays as far as the admissions process is concerned? Thanks in advance.
Thats why they look at the entire application. Obviously, a low GPA will hurt you, but I don't think it can kill you if everything else is great.
On the flip side, can a fairly high GPA help somebody who is in the lower area of the 80% range for a school?
It's not necessarily a big deal having a low GPA, but you have to be able to spin it as part of a story as to why it won't happen again or it was an anomaly etc.
really, the essays are a huge part of the application process. If you get too focused on the numbers without making everything fit together in a nice, easy-to-understand, logical package then you run a risk of not getting in.
Sure, there a likely some automatic entries with super-high everything, but what distinguishes the people on the border or people with one thing against them is the ability to package your past, present, and future so that they think you are worth having at their school.
A lot of schools give you an extra essay to explain anything else you would like to. Well a good story about why your GPA was low is exactly the type of thing to fill in here.
Another mistake people make with essays is that they answer each question individually, rather than looking at the entire essay section as a whole. You don't want to repeat the same crap, the same work experience, etc. in each question. You don't want to contradict yourself. rather build upon it. Be consistent, but use each question as a chance to deepen and clarify your story.
I think this approach is also huge when interviewing.
In the end, plenty of people have good stats, but it's the packaging that gets it done.
thanks for the advice. much appreciated.
One of the things I witnessed in B-School is that folks with low undergrad GPA's that got into top 10 schools generally had more work experience (e.g. 5+).
Also, I had friends that got dinged multiple times and they kept reapplying. Persistence pays off.
e.g. a girlfriend was hard set on getting into University of Chicago, even after multiple dings. She started taking MBA level courses thru UoC's extension program and once she had 2-3 courses under her belt with decent grades, she applied yet again to UoC, finally got accepted and those courses ofcourse transferred toward her MBA...
Out of curiosity, what where the "low GPAs" you guys are referring to?
Essays and work experience are the most important things. Period. GMAT should be 700+ to be safe, but higher is not necessarily better. My buddies with 770+ actually fared worse than my buddies with 700s. I know a kid with a 620 GMAT who got into Wharton. I also know 2 kids with GPAs around 2.5 who got into Kellogg and Michigan. The average GPA at the top schools is only around 3.4 to 3.6, so don't sweat it. And if you were an engineering major then GPA becomes irrelevant. Focus on essays, story, culture fit for the school, and your work experience.
I think your work experience can cover up for your GPA, since it's more practical experience in the field.
I will be starting as an analyst in July so B-school is a few years away. However, as far as the experience is concerned, what are we talking about? Is it the job itself? How about experiences outside of work too? Considering the long hours, how do you stand out as being something more than a workaholic? What kind of activities outside of work allows you to stand out when applying for a MBA?
I have an average gpa of 3.5 at a top 15 undergrad. However, it's been a roller coaster ride for me... lots of A's and but also some C's. Does that look worse than if I had mostly A-'s and B's? The average would still be the same.
If anyone gives you advice on this, they probably don't have a clue. In one phrase, "IT DEPENDS"... If the courses you have A's are Calculus 3 and Astrophysics...but a C in English Composition it's probably no big deal. But if you're a weakling in the important classes they have prestige then hell ya it's an issue. Evaluate your tranny rationally and come up with your own opinion.
I had a 3.3 in a medium difficulty major (Econ) from a mediocre school (Berkeley); 730 GMAT; 1 year consulting, 1 year misc. contract work, 2 yrs real estate PE, decent extracurricular (though self-centered, not community/feel-good).
I got dinged at every school I applied to (H/S/W, UCB, UCLA, MIT). My take: my GPA would bring down their average slightly, my GMAT, would raise their average slightly, and my work experience would make my expected post-MBA compensation in each school's average range. Therefore, I would have little impact on improving any of those schools' marketability. You have to bring something to the table that will help them make money.
If you think Berkeley is a mediocre school...and that a 3.3 from Berkeley kept you out of a top MBA....well you don't deserve to get in anywhere.
I do not think it was your stats nor your W/E that kept you away from your desired schools. You were a competitive candidate at all but probably your essays were more than weak!!! Check out some profiles on the websites and you will know you do not have to be a superhero to get into the top 10(except H/S)...Decent stats and great reasons/stories-->you are in...
Bumping an old thread, but when people mention their post-college "extracurriculars", what does that entail?
It mostly entails stuff like volunteer work or other "save the world/cure cancer" type deals, B-schools love those in their applicants and sometimes view it as a major factor for admission. (like when they compare 2 somewhat similar applicants) This goes for HBS and the others though, not sure how Wharton and the other "finance" MBA's view it.
Thanks Jorge. So during their free time these analysts are volunteering at initiatives and founding nonprofits? Any other good examples of extracirriculars?
Hell no, this will sound really douchey but the reality is most just volunteer for a couple of days then make it sound like a big deal on their resume (At least those that I know). EC work could be anything really, like any sport/art/whatever clubs you go to. Check out the resume books in this thread for some examples: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/top-b-school-resume-books
Silver Banana for you
Great post
If you are an analyst in NYC join a group like NYcares and just volunteer a few times a month (Sunday afternoon for example). I often volunteeted for youth athletic programs in the hood so that I could tie that EC in with my underlying theme of being a student athlete and active member of my community. Schools admit people not necessarily just numbers (although numbers are obviously crucial) as demonstrated by the Berk guy who had the numbers but probably lacked a compelling story or simply didnt execute well.
Also adcomms often recommend that you take a few courses and get As to offset a weak GPA but that hardly seems feasible given finance work schedules.
This topic has been beat to death, but it is a holistic application. I would say the GPA is less important than the GMAT, but you need to make up for it in other areas.
i think a good story could make up for it.. get a consultant if you can afford one and re apply
Sorry to keep bumping this, but how are favorable grade trends viewed? I'll probably finish with a 3.40, but I had a 3.0 going into junior year and then got deans list all junior and senior year. Would this give me extra consideration or do they just look at overall GPA?
Delete
So glad this thread from 8 yrs ago continues to thrive
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