Should I go to China?
Dear Friends,
I am writing because I was hoping to get some advice on a decision I have to make. Someone would have to have some experience working in China/MBA admissions to really comment, but any feedback is very much appreciated.
Background: 25 years old, non-target, 3.5 years removed from school, a year of experience in buy-side finance—contract jobs/internships at BB PWM, HK startup hedge fund and mid-market PE firm in SF—nothing really substantial, currently working a dead-end temp job and doing a lot of odd jobs to pay the bills in New York. Need MBA to hit reset button. Desperate and starving.
Here’s my situation: Through my own personal research I have recently found out that a relative (parent’s cousin) of mine is a chairman/high-level executive of a top Chinese SOE that recently went public in Hong Kong and has been in the news a number of times over the last few years. I obviously cannot give out the name but a number of high-level bulge bracket banks covered the IPO and continue to produce research on it. Most Chinese people have heard of it. I only found this out a month ago.
I am contemplating packing my bags, moving to China, and working for him while studying Chinese full-time. He can make a job. I took 3 years in college, spent 10 months (albeit, half-assedly) studying Chinese abroad, so I’d consider my Chinese conversational, but nowhere near fluent and certainly not at the level necessary to conduct high-level business—yet. I’m having a really fucking hard time finding a job right now—interviewed everywhere from Goldman M&A (Capital Markets) to McKinsey—and have just a shit ton of bad luck with zero results (Sorry, I was really tired when I wrote this). Long story short, I need to change my strategy.
Now I realize that there have been a lot of threads about how Chinese is a waste of time because you can never catch up to the locals’ English, etc. but I feel this is a unique case for three reasons. One, I physically look Chinese and while my Chinese sucks, I have blood-related locals in both government and industry from Beijing that are willing to say “this guy is one of us”. My mother’s family has been in Beijing—and has owned land there— since the Opium Wars. Second, I don’t actually intend on making it big in China— that would be quixotic. Rather, I just want to spend 3-4 years learning the language to a business capacity, apply for my MBA, and then leverage my experience in some sort of sales/business development/fundraising capacity around the time I am 30 in the US (Yes, I know I am behind). My competition is therefore not local Chinese, but instead Americans. Third, I have done some contract online work in the past for a senior partner at McKinsey China and he said I could at least intern there IF my Chinese became professional-level. He was willing to help me land interviews for the NYC office. Maybe I could spend two years at the SOE then two years there? The success of this strategy is contingent on the following assumptions:
1. That working at this level at a top SOE would be an intriguing story that could help with B-School admissions. I know many people with work experience in China, but I don’t know many that work directly for the head of an SOE.
2. That knowing how to interact with this level of Chinese person (corporate decision-maker) would be an attractive asset/experience to American hiring managers if I actually do get into B-School. For example, I know that commercial real estate brokers are always trying to do deals with Chinese companies expanding to the United States.
3. That there would actually be something I could do of value for the SOE. Right now, all I can think of is English-editing and communications, and indirectly helping with the fundraising (I have investor connections through a number of internships at hedge funds in Hong Kong), and maybe investor relations.
4. That 3-4 years is enough time to really nail down the language. I have a base, love the language, and see myself using it for a long time. I have the relatives to practice with, and have the intrinsic motivation (I really miss China). I know I'll never get native but having a practical base that I hold onto forever would be very rewarding (and useful).
My other option is to apply for Teach for America—I previously turned down a job there 3 years ago and they’re asking me to apply again— and hope for the best re: b-school admissions. This doesn’t sound as much fun (I’d rather learn Chinese, hit on girls, and become closer to family rather than deal with kids in the ghetto all day) and, instinctively, does not sound as unique of a story for ad-coms in 3 years.
What do you think I should do? Open to criticism/suggestions. Willing to do anything. Thank you very much for taking the time to read this,
Teach for America pays a lot. And it's more competitive than some banks.
Pretty sure you get paid the same as other starting teachers, which is not a lot. It's competitive but not at the level of banks. I know plenty of ppl with TFA offers that had 0 work experience beforehand.
Thanks for the info. I checked it and you're right. Why is it so competitive then?
Lol.
What's party clique is your long lost relative in? SOE chairman are dropping like flies at the moment, because Xi is hunting both the tigers and the flies.
Your experience in China and any Mandarin fluency you pick up will be largely non-transplantable back into the US, won't be valued here in the US and won't be useful here in the US in most contexts.
The Chinese economy is fucked and that will be really apparent in 3-5 years when you plan to come back. Your idea may have made more sense ~10 years ago (even if it does involve working for a shitty SOE, because all SOEs are shitty*), is not advisable now unless you have low prospects here in the US.
Looking Chinese but not speaking fluent Mandarin in China will make for an unpleasant time unless you pick up the language very quickly.
I'm not on any b-school admission committee, but I suspect there are hundreds/thousands sons and daughters of Chinese party members applying for US b-schools who have done time in daddy's SOE.
If I was looking at the CV of a Chinese job applicant who had that experience, that's the conclusion I'd leap to.
If I knew an applicant had worked for an SOE high level exec, I'd ding them twice as hard. Mainland Chinese management styles are medieval and high level exec politics in a Chinese SOE are like a regressive black comedy of non-productivity and intense back biting.
Of course, that's the perspective of someone who worked in China for 10 years. Others may have different views.
First, I appreciate you taking the time to write out your thoughts. That being said most of your points do not have me convinced, largely because they don't address the points made in my post or do not logically follow.
This is a fair point to bring up. Short answer: I don't know, haven't asked, and won't worry about this right now. If he gets sacked, he gets sacked.
With the most utmost respect, this simply isn't true. Right now (and obviously without the experience at the SOE I do not have yet), I am already having advanced stage interviews with some of the top commercial real estate brokers at CBRE, JLL, Newmark; 99% of these conversations are happening because a lot of these guys are intrigued with the idea of a junior broker speaking Chinese to help secure deals like Bank of China. I don’t see how accumulating an even greater degree of fluency and connections within the region would make me any less qualified for jobs such as these. This is all in New York.
This is a fallacy because it assumes that demand for Chinese-speakers in the United States is positively correlated to stable economic growth (I'm assuming this is the opposite of what you meant by "fucked"). Actually, my understanding is that most Chinese wish to get their money out of China-- and into places like San Francisco, New York, and Australia-- precisely because China IS fucked, and that financial repression, a overly speculative stock market, a frothy real estate market, and unscrupulous shadow banking give them few other options. In other words, the more Chinese people wishing to get their money out of China and into Manhattan real estate, the more demand there will be for brokers that can service such clients. This is, of course, assuming that China witness the total economic catastrophe that you're insinuating.
Most things in life worth doing aren't easy.
If you're advanced stage interviews with CBRE et al, I'd take a job with them in a flash over working for a Chinese SOE, even more so if the SOE isn't a top tier SOE located in a first tier Chinese city (Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen or Guangzhou).
You've done 10 months of Chinese at university and it still "sucks". You sound like you're pretty severed from your Chinese cultural roots, other than maybe getting hong bao at CNY and occasionally eating your mother's pork bone tang. Even immersed in Chinese language, it's likely going to take a few years for the language to come to you, because it sounds like it hasn't come to you so far.
So what will you do in this SOE and what great insights can you draw, being the cut bamboo kid whose a distant relative of a C-suite guy who talks with a really good American accent. I assume your hanzi is worse than your spoken, so you won't be able to read documents that could help you move up the learning curve quickly.
Your spoken is crap, so you likely can't have meaningful conversation, exchange witty chengyu over baiju, etc, so your networking and guanxi are likely to be stunted until you get conversationally very fluent (maybe sometime in year 2 or 3), other than as a charity case "be nice and smile to the dumb cut bamboo (get this, he can't even speak Chinese!*) because that may curry some favour with the Chairman".
Inspirational cliches from the movies like "Most things in life worth doing aren't easy" aren't going to help. If you had the chance to learn Mandarin from your relatives when you were younger (?), that was worth doing and you didn't do it. Getting into a target school or getting a high GPA at a non-target was worth doing, you didn't do that either.
Now, at 25 and thinking "here's an opportunity in China I can get from a distant relative through a move that would be viewed as corruption if done by someone in the public service here in the US", suddenly you'll gain the resolution to 吃苦 and work hard to learn Chinese? Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it (and no one is asking me to).
If you're at "advanced stages" with CBRE et al and getting a role with them is all preconditioned on you going to China first, then those aren't advanced stages. They are just playing out the option value - if you managed to pull off your plan, then they can capitalise on that. It's no skin off their nose to encourage you, just potential upside for them because you'll remember them fondly and could be a future hire for them.
And CBRE have a lot of kids to choose from who can help bring in deals from China. Many kids who are native tongue Mandarin with guanxi based on living in China for most of their life. There will likely be an influx of Hong Kong grads who will bug out of Hong Kong now that the Umbrella Revolution has made it clear that Beijing is rapidly destroying all that is good about Hong Kong. Many of them will be Mandarin fluent and those that aren't can smush their Cantonese in hack job Mandarin at first, then pick up Mandarin much faster than you.
So they can take a real Chinese person who has done solid, meaningful SOE time (and those kids are queuing up for US MBAs) over you.
Apologies if this sounds harsh, but I'm no fan of China or its shitty business culture, I don't like SOEs and I'm not a fan of promoting corruption in SOEs through nepotism.
On the other hand, if it makes China more inefficient and wasteful, reduces the chances of China trying to reclaim Taiwan, reduces China's arseholishness to everyone it shares a land or maritime border with - yes, go ahead with this role. It would be for the best.
Hey OP don't listen to Ssits. He clearly has some personal vendetta against china and is just giving you biased and bad advice. I doubt he has worked there for 10 years if he doesn't even know how to write hua ren.
I think you need to be more clear about your future goals. You say you want work in a sales/bus dev function but is that relevant to China? Do you want to work in China in the long term? If you want to work in some capacity relevant to China in the long run then this SOE experience could be helpful. But it will largely depend on how much responsibility/exposure you get while there. If not, then I don't really see the value proposition of this experience considering you'll need to put in extra time.
I just went through the bschool admissions process and I think it won't make any difference if you worked at CBRE or the well known Chinese SOE. H/S/W are basically out with either option and you'll have the same chance at the other top schools regardless. Your chances will depend on how you spin your experience and your stats (GMAT, gpa, undergrad).
It comes down to your goals and bschool considerations should not be taken into account here. PM me if you want to talk more.
PM Sent
I agree with SSits's sentiment here overall. Here's what's bothering me: you want to go to China to develop your language skills, learn more of the culture, get closer to your family, have fun, and visit nightclubs. That's great! That's awesome! But don't paint it like it's the obvious step to you getting into CBRE, HBS, or whatever you have planned. Your experiences overseas in China, as amazing as they are, are not the golden gate into new opportunities.
B-school? Someone who has done the Peace Corp or TFA will be in much higher demand than you (for "prestige" reasons). If you're relying on your cultural knowledge of China, then as SSits said, those slots go to international students who can speak more fluently and have more knowledge of the country than you ever will by staying there for 2 years. For RE firms or other "high finance"? Unless you plan to be traveling to Asia a lot, or buying properties in Beijing, or want to get a job working out of JPM HK or something, I see no reason why your China experience would be worth a damn. It makes for good cocktail table talk, in the same way that one of my classmates writing, "qualified for the Olympics" got a few eyebrows and nods, but it's largely discounted.
As for CBRE and your "advanced stages" right now... they are interested in your Chinese fluency, not your experience being physically in China. You could cram Rosetta Stone/FSI/Pimsleur for the next 12 months and probably still land the job despite never going to China to work.
Long story short - having physically worked in China doesn't give you much of a leg up in the job market. I absolutely support your desire for cultural immersion, but don't use job advancement as an excuse for your desire to go and enjoy life. And maybe listen to the people who have worked in the industry for ages and know how recruiting is done.......?
OP -- I don't know why you're coming here for advice if you clearly have your mind made up and don't want to listen to advice being given. It's your life, nobody else gives a shit.
It sounds like you would enjoy living in HK, but be warned that outside of family and work you will have few opportunities to practice or hear Putonghua. Nor do I think you will enjoy or learn much from working in a SOE, besides building a network (maybe). Most SOEs are extremely slow-paced compared to a typical American company, so if you have experience in a fast-paced industry like finance or consulting (like SSITs) they must seem like purgatory.
You should see if your relative can get you a job at a service firm like a BB or MBB. English is spoken in the office there, you will actually develop real business skills, and they will staff you on China deals in which you can use and improve your language skills.
I spent some time to read the entire thread and found I'm probably the only one who supports OP's plan :)
Many people including native Chinese significantly underestimate senior officials of SOE(央企) or central government in general. From my personal experiences (I also have some family connections), at least those dealing with commerce or finance are extremely smart and informed. Sure, connection/family background are super important but that's far from enough for someone to become chairman of SOE. Thanks to China's economy-first policy last 20 years, the performance of SOE is the single most important factor to decide executive's party record, which goes with them for a long time and determines their entire life.
Consider this: what happened when an US public company performs worse than peers? shareholders may lose billions but who cares? CEO may simply get fired and get away with millions dollar package. As long as it is not on front page of WSJ or involve SEC, he may quickly find another high pay job.
If a SOE has bad performance, it is the party who loses money/face or both. It is not that easy to get away and find next job. The record goes with them for life. In worst case, you may never step up in your career and “banished” to some trivial roles for years. Of course things may be different if you are direct relatives of politburo members but most people's connections are much lower level.
Don't get me wrong, there still are many problems in SOE or China in general. But most of them are in lower level of pyramid (think SOE local branch, 3rd tier city/rural gov official). For example, it sucks to be a junior/mid level employee in SOE. However, if OP has chance to work directly with very senior level people, I strongly recommend it. He probably won't make a career there and become next Jack Ma, but the experience would be very interesting. He may see some really big deals that only Chinese company could do. Many of SOE have aggressive expanding plan both domestically and internationally. Also I-Bankers and MBB consultants beg to have a chance to pitch.
In terms of bschool, I think some arguments above are pretty weak although I agree it is not a guarantee ticket to top bschool. I really don't think family connection with SOE/Government is a negative factor, as long as it is not the only thing you bring to the table. In fact most children of Chinese senior govt officials can get in top school in US (many in Harvard). It is well-known that bschool like to bring people with strong political or business connection (hint: who has more chance to succeed?)
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