SMB Capital Trading ?

Can anybody give me any insight into if SMB Capital would be a good place to begin a trading career? It seems to be a Proprietary trading outfit that pitches ideas to their Short Term Hedge Fund. Would this be a good opportunity for a college graduate to gain valuable experience or is it more for a boiler room operation? If anybody could give me any advice that would be great. Thanks

www.smbcap.com/

 
Best Response

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions.  Small people always do that, but the really great ones make you feel that you too, can become great."

- Mark Twain

As a partner at SMB Capital, www.smbcap.com, I read the previous posts about us and was deeply disappointed.  My partner and I (Wharton/Fordham Law, UConn Law) have spent the past two years, along with our Head Trader and Senior Traders building an extensive, demanding and thoughtful training program.  For those who receive an invitation to interview with us we show you exactly what we teach our new traders.  Our training program consists of 150 plus written lectures, audio lectures, a library of trading videos, and that is all supplemented with our Real Time Audio Feed.  We offer Mentorship from professional traders with collectively over 20 plus years of experience.  For five weeks every second of every day has been planned so that you are armed with the trading skills and a trading system necessary to succeed.  Succinctly, our training program provides you with an edge in today's market.

SMB Capital has one goal: to build the best short term trading desk on the Street.  We provide: a) an extensive, demanding and thoughtful training program; b) an environment where our traders share valuable trading information; c) Mentors who do whatever we can to help our traders succeed- whether financially or with our time; d) a professional trading environment where people enjoy working.       

The link below provides testimonials from some who have trained with SMB.  We do whatever we can to help our traders recognize their trading potential: http://www.smbtraining.com/testimonials.php

The story in our craigslist ad is true.  And we relay that story to let you know that our desk works together and enjoys each others company.  It is also just a pretty funny story to us.

For those looking for a trading firm, please take the time to visit many different firms.  And make your own judgement about who is a good fit for you.

Mike Bellafiore   

 

SMB Capital is a small shop - you will LEARN A LOT there. I think it might be the best place to actually 'intern' - if you are not worried about full time offers

 

Hi fellow monkeys,

I found this topic rather interesting, I am one of the unfortunate 2008 graduates looking for a job and was rather desperate till recently when after interviewing with many banks, finally landed a good position trading equity derivatives.

So midway through the recruiting cycle, I started looking at Prop firms and wondered what they were all about. In fact, one of the best prop firms out there would be First New York Securities, where they pay you a base of 50k till you graduate to become a trader. Not sure about bonus.

But at the same time, I came across many firms like SMB that basically does day trading, offers you a job that pays NOTHING, and cites the upside as "training". I mean come on, who the heck would fall for this? Graduates wouldn't pay SMB any attention during good times, but in market conditions such as 2007, 2002 where recruiting was bad, I would think SMB is better than nothing.

Now here's the thing, I realized that nothing turns out to be better than SMB. If you join a prop firm, and let's say you make a lot of money. You can't jump to a bank and trade the large books cause you are still unproven. And this is logical because we see a lot of hedge funds become really successful, but when the AUM grows, the scale does the fund in. Best eg would be julian robertson's tiger management. If you can trade small positions well using technicals, it doesn't mean you can do the same with large positions. And why should banks hire you when they can do lateral hires from other banks and even ivy fresh grads.

So to cut to the chase, I think for any of you out there seriously considering SMB Capital or any other similar prop shops, I suggest you go back to school and wait for a market rebound. Being a trader is tough, don't make it any tougher.

Cheers to the rest of the monkeys out there and beware of pot holes such as these.

 

your post was very confusing; i assume when you say, "nothing turns out to be better than SMB," you mean, "doing nothing" is better than SMB, as opposed to "there is nothing better than SMB." Anyway, I strongly disagree with you that doing nothing is better.

 

I meant that going back to school would be better. Apologies if that was confusing but I just wanted to prevent college grads from falling for some of these "scam shops".

 

I have enjoyed reading Wall Street Oasis's newsletter. You might want to check it out if you have not already.

Just a few corrections about SMB Capital: 1) A new trader's buying power is not capped at 25k. It is exceedingly higher. 2) It is silly to suggest that a successful prop trader with a demonstrable track record wouldn't be hired by a large hedge fund. We have many friends that have made the transition to established HF's or started their own. 3) Our firm is having our best month. One of our new traders made more last week than he did the previous year as an accountant at one of the Big Four. And there are many better traders at our firm. Instead of reading Grover Lane's (an unknown, unnamed, unverified person on the Internet) comments as fact, I would encourage those who are truly interested in learning how to trade to draw their own conclusions about SMB or any other firm. The best way for a young person to find a firm that is the best fit for you is to try and land an interview. Then draw your own conclusions. During our last interview with us we will invite you to lunch with two traders from our firm. You will get some good free food and can ask them any question you would like. For some working at a big bank is the only worthwhile trading experience. For most a prop trading firm like SMB, where traders get to keep a large percentage of their profits, would be a great place to start their trading careers.

With us you will really learn how to trade. You will not be someone's assistant for two years before you are permitted to trade. On Day 26 after an extensive, demanding and thoughtful training program you will trade live. And SMB (run by active traders with collectively more than two decades of experience) will work with you daily until you become a consistently profitable and well rounded trader. And maybe in a few years you will consider prop trading, like we do, the best job in the world.

Mike Bellafiore SMB Capital, Partner www.smbtraining.com www.smbcap.com www.smbtraining.com/blog

 

Mike,

If you are so confident about your training program why would you not structure your program like FNY and offer a salary and a more extensive training program. To me, and I suspect many on this site the fact that you don't pay a salary displays a lack on conviction in your ability to attract top trading talent. While in this market environment I suspect you may be getting folks giving your firm a look that would otherwise never consider SMB it is fairly obvious that the top talent would end up elsewhere at shops that are willing to pay an initial salary. It seems your business model is one that limits your risk. If you are so confident about your training program and you are so confident in your firms decades of trading experience and you are so confident in your ability to select great candidates why not display that confidence through actions rather than words. Structure your program like FNY or some of the other well respected firms out there.

 

They may be confident about their training, but not so confident about everybody's motivation. They are selecting for people motivated enough to work on 'full commission', like many sales positions. Obviously, they have more than enough people signing up that they don't have to pay a salary.

 

I checked out many proprietary trading company's in New York so far as I trade remotely from NY and LA. I have traded for about 5 years and am very knowledgeable about all these prop shops around here in the city. I decided to sign up with flat iron trading, they are downtown in the NY Financial District. They seemed like the most honest and straight forward group of traders I have come across so far and were very easy to deal with. I was a little hesitant at first being they are a new operation in town, but they seemed better then anything I came across so far in terms of honesty and rates/payouts. I was satisfied with the package they offered me and been with them for a few months now, can't complain. They mentioned they don't provide any in-house training to traders as they are all experienced, but do provide full remote-training to their new traders that trade remotely. I recommend them, think their site is flatirontrading.com

 

SMB Capital deserves this harsh review. The firm is playing the pop they got from being on wall street warriors. (And subsequently an Article in Trader Daily).

While Mike's right learning how to "daytrade" at any of these prop firms successfully can easily open doors to the finical institutions coveted by most of these forum members (HFs and BBs) The truth of the situation is that if you're a good trader who is consistently profitable you'd wind up taking a loss to trade there. Most HFs and BBs don't pay out nearly as well as these shops do.

Pokerplaya brings up an EXCELLENT point. This is the same type of situation you see at commission-only sales jobs. The better firms in this industry (Trillium, FYNS, Chimera...) all offer small salaries (Trillium) or paid training (FYNS) or draws (Chimera). However, 90% of the industry is not doing this. Why?

Simple. Turn over. Most traders fail. There are tons of fish who want to make it big day trading. The cost is enormous. Plus most firms are getting some sort revenue from the commissions traders generate, ergo more bodies can = to more money.

Here's another important aspect to look into what's the profit split? A key to finding a good firm is actually one that has a BAD profit split.

Hah, I know that is counter intuitive but think about. A firm that lets you keep 90+ % of the money you make has VERY little financial incentive to insure your long term viablity. (SMB Captial, Wasserman Capital, etc..) As apposed to a shop like Trillium or Chimera where you start only keeping 30% of your profits. Clearly the goal at one of these firms is to make you successful.

These guys do sit on the same floor as Trillum. Anyway hope all that info helps.

-Markets

 

Oh yes, and when your interviewing at any of these shops guys here's a great way to smoke out if the firm is any good: ASK TO SEE THE PNL!For the office, look to see if there is consistency in the numbers or if its a wild roller-coaster ride.

 

Mike Bellafiore, I have a question for you. I've watched your interviews on CNN and read about your firm intensively as well. I'm not sure about the negative criticisms above, many of which seem to come from both an immature and premature standpoint.

Having said that while you state traders don't need to come from ivy league schools, what are the exit strategies from an academic standpoint for your employees and traders? I understand "and have read" multiple times that traders who "make it" don't need to pursue academic opportunities, which perhaps is also the case with your co-founder. However, again, if students want to pursue an academic degree or MBA at an ivy league, has that been possible at SMB Capital?

I also appreciate the importance that your firm places on fundamental and technical analysis, backtesting, research and a strong emphasis on training. Trading is a no BS game.

Thanks,

 

I would like to provide, hopefully, an objective rebuttal against some of the negative sentiments expressed towards SMB Cap earlier, based off an interview I had with a partner at SMB, which was in fact, at noon time today.

As a point of reference towards my current discernment, I have went on interviews with other proprietary trading firms - i.e. Lynx, Opus Atlanta, Capstone - and thus, have garnered a general feeling about each firm based on my initial first round of interviews. Through my interactions today with one of the partners at SMB, I can attest that they are a legitimate operation with a great emphasis on their training/mentoring program. The partner exuded much confidence when conversing about his training method and seemed intent on turning out successful traders with his methods. I compare this to my interview at Lynx, where the partner did not display a great deal of enthusiasm towards mentoring, or even articulate a detail outline of the training methods. Furthermore, SMB partner I interacted was honest with all his responses and did not seem predisposed towards exuding a certain type of image or bs response I sometimes encountered at other funds.

Hopefully, I will be able to advance past the initial round of interviews (although I believe I may have nixed some questions), for I believe this is a great company to work for. Of course, this is only based off my initial interview, but I hope subsequent postees may form a more objective opinion - by going on interviews for instance - before positing unproductive remarks on this site.

 

======================================================

Proprietary Trading Firms, Arcades, and Scams

By : Brett Steenbarger http://traderfeed.blogspot.com/2008/07/proprietary-trading-firms-arcades-and.html

I've received several emails lately in which traders asked me about joining proprietary firms that offer training for very high fees (many thousands of dollars/euros). The traders want to know, "Are these firms legitimate?"

I have very sincere doubts.

A proprietary trading firm is one in which you trade the capital of the firm in exchange for a split of profits. An arcade is a firm in which you trade your own capital, but the company provides the trading infrastructure, including member commissions/fees. At an arcade, you pay for the overhead/commissions but keep your profits. Prop firms can be good options for traders who lack sufficient capital for a meaningful account; arcades can be good options for successful traders who benefit from the lower overhead associated with economies of scale. Both options offer access to other traders, which can be a benefit.

A firm that charges for training with the promise of trading proprietary capital sounds like a scam. It reminds me of modeling "agencies" that charge for classes with the promise of contracts that never materialize. They make their money from the training fees, not from splitting fees with successful professionals.

At the very least, if you're considering such an arrangement, exercise due diligence and make sure that the firm can put you in touch with traders who have completed the training and are now trading prop capital for a living. If they can't do that, you surely know you have a scam. But let's face it: if a firm was successful in training traders and was confident of their success, they'd make plenty of money from the profit splits. They wouldn't need to talk traders into huge training fees with pretty promises.

And, really, is a several week course going to turn a beginner into a successful trader? Caveat emptor.

RELATED POST:

Joining a Prop Firm . Posted by Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. at 2:49 PM
6 comments: Christian said... Brett, I read your blog every day and put your teachings to use in my trading often. However, I cannot let this post go. With all due respect, and because many potential prop traders (in every sense of the phrase) read your blog as often as I do, you should do your own due diligence on these firms that you may think are scams. It's very possible that you may have been referring to a firm of which I am a member, so I felt the need to respond although cannot speak for them.

I implore you to contact the heads of these firms and make your own judgment from there. Yes, there are those firms that take advantage of those looking to trade however, in my humble opinion, there are a few that do not fall under the scams that you described.

7:53 PM
Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. said... Hi Christian,

Thanks for your comment. The last thing I want to do is impugn all prop firms. There are many very fine ones out there that operate with considerable integrity. I work with several of them.

I don't know your trading firm and, alas, cannot possibly conduct due diligence on every firm out there. That has to be the responsibility of each trader seeking a position.

Prop firms do charge fees to traders (so-called desk fees) and some of those may be used to defray costs associated with training. There's nothing shady in that. The situations I have heard about, however, sound quite different from that. The training fees are enormous (so much so that they are an obvious profit center for the firms), and the promises of prop trading are murky. That raises my concern that these could be scams.

As I mention in the post, if the prop firms that charge for training can provide references of traders who have successfully completed the training and now are managing meaningful capital from the firm, that would lend credibility to the business model.

That having been said, I truly can think of no major prop firm in Chicago (one that is a member of the major exchanges) that operates on this kind of model. It is not necessary to pay big bucks to get in the door at a good firm; a successful track record goes much further.

Brett

8:54 PM
KidQuantum said... Brett, here in London there is a third model. You are charged a certain amount for the training, but that includes a trading account with the firm. If you show promise you are kept on after a certain period. Effectively its like going to an arcade with your own money and receiving quality training before trading. Its good for the firm (if its fair and decent) because they get to back traders who offer a buffer against the firms potential loss. It is also good for the individual who gets the same education given to the firms own backed traders and is guaranteed an opportunity to prove himself.

Also you should maybe read all testimonials or speak to a few graduates of these 'paid for' training courses.

There are most definitely people who have done these courses and either made it or not as traders. The common thread is that they all feel that they had a fair deal and a real chance.

7:08 AM
Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. said... Hi Kid Quantum,

That's an interesting concept; do pass along links to firms that you believe offer quality training via this model. And I totally agree: talking with graduates is important. Personally, I'm not sure I'd find written testimonials helpful if I couldn't talk with the traders.

Brett

7:16 AM
David said... Brett,

A link to this blog is found on the SMB Capital testimonials page. I dont see your name near the link, so i wanted to confirm your endorsement. seems relevant to this post to confirm your endorsement. scroll to the bottom. http://www.smbtraining.com/?q=testimonials

thanks

6:45 PM
Brett Steenbarger, Ph.D. said... Hi David,

What you're referring to is a quote from one of my blog posts, not anything that I crafted as a specific endorsement. My goal is to make traders aware of promising resources; the need for due diligence, to ensure that the resources will truly meet one's own training requirements, remains.

Brett

 

They're not a bad trading firm... I have seen them on Wall Street Warriors which is a wall street show...but I think that you'd be much better off with livetradingdemo.com...I think that it's a much better program personally and I can't really see a reason why you would fail with them...

 

I traded for them for over a year and I would not recommend SMB capital. They charge you over 10K in training fees, which is ridiculous . They're percentage cut is also pretty high. Any company who values their employees wouldn't do that. I would not recommend them for any aspiring trader who wants to learn the proper ins and out of the market.

 

SMB is a scam that can’t make money trading so they launched their overpriced “training” program to stay afloat. No serious trading outlet sells their proprietary knowledge unless they have no confidence in it. Avoid these losers.

 

Good prop firm: "We're so confident in our training of trader assistants/trader trainees that we'll recoup our investment in them and then some when they stick around to work for us because of our fantastic working environment with our gaming consoles, foosball tables, exercise rooms, etc..."

Bad prop firm: "Most of our trainees burn out, but at least we can gouge them out of whatever pennies they have with a ridiculous promise anyway"

From what it sounds like, I've heard of some firms that simply have you trade your own capital...but charging you for the "training"? Are they serious?

 

This is the worst company I have ever seen. Had an interview with them and they were extremely unprofessional. Missing scheduled phone interviews, and hanging up in the middle of an interview to take another call. I would never work for this firm, and I warn you to do the same.

 

I have read some informative posts here, thank you for sharing.

"The science of trading, is knowing when to buy a stock...the art is knowing what time to sell."
 
The big problem with SMB is that technical <span class="keyword_link"><a href="//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/trading-overview">trading</a></span> isn't respected in the <span class="keyword_link"><a href="//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/trading-overview">trading</a></span> community and is generally not profitable.  For example, name a single person who got rich <span class="keyword_link"><a href="//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/trading-overview">trading</a></span> using pure technical analysis.  I can't think of any.  Some well known traders like Paul Tudor Jones and Steve Cohen use technical analysis to augment their <span class="keyword_link"><a href="//www.wallstreetoasis.com/finance-dictionary/trading-overview">trading</a></span>, but it's not where the profits come from.  

And to make things worse, what money used to be had in chart reading is now arbitraged away by quants that can execute on a pattern in microseconds.

 
arilion:
The big problem with SMB is that technical trading isn't respected in the trading community and is generally not profitable. For example, name a single person who got rich trading using pure technical analysis. I can't think of any. Some well known traders like Paul Tudor Jones and Steve Cohen use technical analysis to augment their trading, but it's not where the profits come from.
And to make things worse, what money used to be had in chart reading is now arbitraged away by quants that can execute on a pattern in microseconds.

Arilion this response is beyond laughable you have either clearly failed as a trader or got burned somewhere along the line, you name Paul Tudor Jones and Steve Cohen and say their profits dont come from their technical trading, please just stop talking your polluting the minds of newbies with purely false information. Last time I checked Price Action and Volume are still technical methods to trading I know for a fact many traders that make great money trading the key is to be well capitalized and follow your method regardless of what it is, people who sit and bash a firm by saying no reputable company would share their information or methods are insane and dont have a clue how to trade. THere are so many ways to capture moves in the market that is why trading works in the first place, its not about a holy grail or single best trading strategy you take multiple strategies and some days A works better than B and B works better than C and your losers are kept minimal while your winners get you ahead even if your only right 55% of the time you make money thats the edge. If you trade scared or with scared money then you will fail meaning if you trade with capital you truly cant afford to lose or too small an amount your toast, if you dont follow consistent rules for your specific strategy then you will lose, prop firms including SMB teach a method and hope some traders get it, most dont because they havent spent the many years absorbing chart reading and price action its a full time job and its NOT rocket science its harder. A scientist who knows his stuff has it far easier because the mathematics either work or dont, trading nothing is certain you can just play the probabilities and control your emotions theres no exact way to win trading thats why I tell people its much more difficult than rocket science, but in the end you get what you put in, theres no get rich quick it takes years and years and more years and hopefully in the end you did well enough to enjoy your life and take out what you needed to do the things you wanted to do :-)

 

It gives me a feeling that it wasn't a job and by no means, can be called "a place to start a career." Think about it, you pay to be there "interns," to provide your services, so to me, it does not sound like a financial service firm, but an educational platform, at least by part.

 

I got this from their posting on my school's website: One of the partners is a Whartonite.

Describing work culture: "A trading team that has fun

Little Mike invited those on our desk to a local bar, as his sister was guest bartending. By the way Little Mike, stands over 6 feet, weighs 300+ pounds, and was a former professional football player. Little Mike made one request of his invitees: under no conditions was anyone allowed to hit on his sister. Sounds simple enough. Needless to say, one of our Senior Traders did nothing but hit on Little Mike's sister all evening. That can't be a good idea."

Ooh, what happened next? I'm kinda curious. So if you work there, please enlighten us.

 
wilsonjones:
smb capital is terrible. they just opened an etrade account and started daytrading.

You were born in 1989... you're not out of undergrad, and obviously never worked there. You are still in college, you don't know shit about shit,... why don't you stick to what you do know... whatever the fck that is.

BTW: I don't work there. Never applied there. I don't know very much about them. But your post is fcking retarted.

 

i know a couple people who work there. Heard it's nothing special, and as with all prop trading firms, there's a job security issue..

I don't accept sacrifices and I don't make them. ... If ever the pleasure of one has to be bought by the pain of the other, there better be no trade at all. A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud.
 

Best comment:

"This idiots from SMB capital are hiring right now, and this is the qualification that caught my eyes and they require for you to have, Bachelor's degree required, Strong analytical aptitude, this cute girl graduates from nyu and she haven't see a trading platform in her life? and this idiots hire her? i didn't go to collage but i being trading for 6 years, i know how every market works, i know economics, financials, politic science, she's even reading trading book for idiots, after she ... >>>> "

he be trading FO 6 YEARS!

 

The clapping aside.... which i am just about 100% positive was a gimmick because it was on TV the partner on their raises a point. I am willing to bet the has made over 10 million dollars trading. Until you have made 10 million dollars trading you can just shut up.

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

haha yeah I changed things around like 3 times when writing it.

What i meant was...

Aside from the clapping at the close which I am positive they did as a gimmick because that clip was part of a TV show. I feel like their partner makes some valid points about what they are there to do as daytraders.

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

I hate to break it to you but daytrading is not that complicated. The hardest part about trading is overcoming the mental obstacles. The basic concepts of daytrading could be taught to a 8 year old so I dont see where using 3rd grade language is that bad.

"Oh the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion" - Frank Slaughtery 25th Hour.
 

Let's be honest here. Are we saying this girl is a 5? In the trading world, she's an 8 or 9, because there are (almost) no female traders. There isn't one on my whole desk. We're not talking about sales (where she'd be a 5 or 6 on most peoples' scales).

Can we talk about 'the scale,' though? If the scale is 0-10, we need to make some assumptions on its distribution. The two distributions I like in this instance are normal (bell-shaped for you mathematical retards) and uniform.

Let's take the latter case first. If we assume that beauty amongst women is distributed uniformly from 0-10, then we're saying that a '6' represents the 60th percentile of women. Under these assumptions, from a random drawing of, say, 100 women from the population at large, you would have to be willing to bang no more than 40 of them if you were to call her a '6.' Since a random drawing of 100 women from the population of all women is unlikely to result in more than, perhaps, 20 women who are within 5 years of your age, there is no way you're going to want to sleep with more than 40 of those 100 random women. Within the population of all women (I'm including octagenarians), this chick is an 8 or 9.

If we refine our population to women aged 18-30, who work in all aspects of high finance (I'm not talking about the dumpy chick who happens to be the teller at your auntie's local bank), she's probably a 5 or a 6. But that's because women above the age of 26 or 27 in high finance are rare (if you don't know why, you've clearly never worked in a bank). Within trading, though, she's still a 9 because there are SO FEW female traders, and the ones that do trade are so manly that I'd be afraid they'd do me caveman-style (bashing someone over the head with a club before taking care of business).

That aside, I don't think uniformity is the right assumption. Normality makes more sense. Five should be the median, and each whole number integer to either side of 5 should represent a one standard deviation move. That would mean that 95% of all people are in the 3-7 range, and that 99.7% are in the 2-8 range. I think that's closer to the truth, but it's probably a bit skewed to the left due to obesity. The fact, then, that she's 25 (ish), not fat, and has a face that hasn't been hit with a shovel (yet) means that in the pool of all women, she's sure to be at least two standard deviations above the norm.

The point I'm trying to make here is this: 20-year-old college chicks have NO IDEA how hot they are. After leaving college and entering the professional workplace, you go from being relatively old to extremely young, and the women you see on a daily basis drop off significantly in hotness. If 50% of 20-year-olds are attractive, only about 20% of 30-year-olds are. And after about 40, just about all women are pretty busted.

In any case, I just wanted to clarify 'the scale' so it is properly used in the future.

 
brotherbear:
Let's be honest here. Are we saying this girl is a 5? In the trading world, she's an 8 or 9, because there are (almost) no female traders. There isn't one on my whole desk. We're not talking about sales (where she'd be a 5 or 6 on most peoples' scales).

Can we talk about 'the scale,' though? If the scale is 0-10, we need to make some assumptions on its distribution. The two distributions I like in this instance are normal (bell-shaped for you mathematical retards) and uniform.

Let's take the latter case first. If we assume that beauty amongst women is distributed uniformly from 0-10, then we're saying that a '6' represents the 60th percentile of women. Under these assumptions, from a random drawing of, say, 100 women from the population at large, you would have to be willing to bang no more than 40 of them if you were to call her a '6.' Since a random drawing of 100 women from the population of all women is unlikely to result in more than, perhaps, 20 women who are within 5 years of your age, there is no way you're going to want to sleep with more than 40 of those 100 random women. Within the population of all women (I'm including octagenarians), this chick is an 8 or 9.

If we refine our population to women aged 18-30, who work in all aspects of high finance (I'm not talking about the dumpy chick who happens to be the teller at your auntie's local bank), she's probably a 5 or a 6. But that's because women above the age of 26 or 27 in high finance are rare (if you don't know why, you've clearly never worked in a bank). Within trading, though, she's still a 9 because there are SO FEW female traders, and the ones that do trade are so manly that I'd be afraid they'd do me caveman-style (bashing someone over the head with a club before taking care of business).

That aside, I don't think uniformity is the right assumption. Normality makes more sense. Five should be the median, and each whole number integer to either side of 5 should represent a one standard deviation move. That would mean that 95% of all people are in the 3-7 range, and that 99.7% are in the 2-8 range. I think that's closer to the truth, but it's probably a bit skewed to the left due to obesity. The fact, then, that she's 25 (ish), not fat, and has a face that hasn't been hit with a shovel (yet) means that in the pool of all women, she's sure to be at least two standard deviations above the norm.

The point I'm trying to make here is this: 20-year-old college chicks have NO IDEA how hot they are. After leaving college and entering the professional workplace, you go from being relatively old to extremely young, and the women you see on a daily basis drop off significantly in hotness. If 50% of 20-year-olds are attractive, only about 20% of 30-year-olds are. And after about 40, just about all women are pretty busted.

In any case, I just wanted to clarify 'the scale' so it is properly used in the future.

too long, didnt read

 
brotherbear:
The two distributions I like in this instance are normal (bell-shaped for you mathematical retards) and uniform.

Under these assumptions, from a random drawing of, say, 100 women from the population at large, you would have to be willing to bang no more than 40 of them if you were to call her a '6.'

Within trading, though, she's still a 9 because there are SO FEW female traders, and the ones that do trade are so manly that I'd be afraid they'd do me caveman-style (bashing someone over the head with a club before taking care of business).

The fact, then, that she's 25 (ish), not fat, and has a face that hasn't been hit with a shovel (yet) means that in the pool of all women, she's sure to be at least two standard deviations above the norm.

love it - brotherbear you need to post more often :)

 
brotherbear:
Let's be honest here. Are we saying this girl is a 5? In the trading world, she's an 8 or 9, because there are (almost) no female traders. There isn't one on my whole desk. We're not talking about sales (where she'd be a 5 or 6 on most peoples' scales).

Can we talk about 'the scale,' though? If the scale is 0-10, we need to make some assumptions on its distribution. The two distributions I like in this instance are normal (bell-shaped for you mathematical retards) and uniform.

Let's take the latter case first. If we assume that beauty amongst women is distributed uniformly from 0-10, then we're saying that a '6' represents the 60th percentile of women. Under these assumptions, from a random drawing of, say, 100 women from the population at large, you would have to be willing to bang no more than 40 of them if you were to call her a '6.' Since a random drawing of 100 women from the population of all women is unlikely to result in more than, perhaps, 20 women who are within 5 years of your age, there is no way you're going to want to sleep with more than 40 of those 100 random women. Within the population of all women (I'm including octagenarians), this chick is an 8 or 9.

If we refine our population to women aged 18-30, who work in all aspects of high finance (I'm not talking about the dumpy chick who happens to be the teller at your auntie's local bank), she's probably a 5 or a 6. But that's because women above the age of 26 or 27 in high finance are rare (if you don't know why, you've clearly never worked in a bank). Within trading, though, she's still a 9 because there are SO FEW female traders, and the ones that do trade are so manly that I'd be afraid they'd do me caveman-style (bashing someone over the head with a club before taking care of business).

That aside, I don't think uniformity is the right assumption. Normality makes more sense. Five should be the median, and each whole number integer to either side of 5 should represent a one standard deviation move. That would mean that 95% of all people are in the 3-7 range, and that 99.7% are in the 2-8 range. I think that's closer to the truth, but it's probably a bit skewed to the left due to obesity. The fact, then, that she's 25 (ish), not fat, and has a face that hasn't been hit with a shovel (yet) means that in the pool of all women, she's sure to be at least two standard deviations above the norm.

The point I'm trying to make here is this: 20-year-old college chicks have NO IDEA how hot they are. After leaving college and entering the professional workplace, you go from being relatively old to extremely young, and the women you see on a daily basis drop off significantly in hotness. If 50% of 20-year-olds are attractive, only about 20% of 30-year-olds are. And after about 40, just about all women are pretty busted.

In any case, I just wanted to clarify 'the scale' so it is properly used in the future.

I only read a paragraph or two... but it was enough to determine why you'd likely be considering her a 9 haha

Jack: They’re all former investment bankers who were laid off from that economic crisis that Nancy Pelosi caused. They have zero real world skills, but God they work hard. -30 Rock
 
brotherbear:
Let's be honest here. Are we saying this girl is a 5? In the trading world, she's an 8 or 9, because there are (almost) no female traders. There isn't one on my whole desk. We're not talking about sales (where she'd be a 5 or 6 on most peoples' scales).

Can we talk about 'the scale,' though? If the scale is 0-10, we need to make some assumptions on its distribution. The two distributions I like in this instance are normal (bell-shaped for you mathematical retards) and uniform.

Let's take the latter case first. If we assume that beauty amongst women is distributed uniformly from 0-10, then we're saying that a '6' represents the 60th percentile of women. Under these assumptions, from a random drawing of, say, 100 women from the population at large, you would have to be willing to bang no more than 40 of them if you were to call her a '6.' Since a random drawing of 100 women from the population of all women is unlikely to result in more than, perhaps, 20 women who are within 5 years of your age, there is no way you're going to want to sleep with more than 40 of those 100 random women. Within the population of all women (I'm including octagenarians), this chick is an 8 or 9.

If we refine our population to women aged 18-30, who work in all aspects of high finance (I'm not talking about the dumpy chick who happens to be the teller at your auntie's local bank), she's probably a 5 or a 6. But that's because women above the age of 26 or 27 in high finance are rare (if you don't know why, you've clearly never worked in a bank). Within trading, though, she's still a 9 because there are SO FEW female traders, and the ones that do trade are so manly that I'd be afraid they'd do me caveman-style (bashing someone over the head with a club before taking care of business).

That aside, I don't think uniformity is the right assumption. Normality makes more sense. Five should be the median, and each whole number integer to either side of 5 should represent a one standard deviation move. That would mean that 95% of all people are in the 3-7 range, and that 99.7% are in the 2-8 range. I think that's closer to the truth, but it's probably a bit skewed to the left due to obesity. The fact, then, that she's 25 (ish), not fat, and has a face that hasn't been hit with a shovel (yet) means that in the pool of all women, she's sure to be at least two standard deviations above the norm.

The point I'm trying to make here is this: 20-year-old college chicks have NO IDEA how hot they are. After leaving college and entering the professional workplace, you go from being relatively old to extremely young, and the women you see on a daily basis drop off significantly in hotness. If 50% of 20-year-olds are attractive, only about 20% of 30-year-olds are. And after about 40, just about all women are pretty busted.

In any case, I just wanted to clarify 'the scale' so it is properly used in the future.

LOL at this post. there is a lot of thoughtful analysis that went into this.

for the record, i think she's cute relative to women who work in finance in nyc.

--- man made the money, money never made the man
 

oh please cruz12, dont be so pretentious. I may spend alot of time at work but I still live and go out in New York City which has plenty of gorgeous girls and I consider her to be quite hot. She isnt a total knockout but 4-5 is just ridiculous....if u consider her a 4-5 its a problem with you, not her. I agree that life is skewed by what we see every day, but I spend plenty of time outside of the office and even at my office we have a few secretaries that blow her away, but that dosent mean she isnt hot.

In my opinion somebody who would call her a 4 or a 5 just dosent really like actual women but rather some idealized picture of what a woman should look like. Except for a club where every girl is really trying to look hot, you could bring her anywhere and she would be hotter then 95% of girls in the room. And BTW if you saw that girl when she was trying to look her best as opposed to her at the office she would look way better also. Dont be a hater, she is hot.

 

shes not hot.

this firm may or may not be legit, but discretionary intraday equity trading with such a closely stopped downside, just to make the $1-2k these guys make on good days, is a pretty rough way to make a living in trading in my opinion...

 

Based on the bell curve, she's going to be a 5.5-6. She gets high marks in the not being fat category and that's about it. If you've watched that show, you know that scene is probably the best she looked all season.

And if I recall correctly, she bailed after a few weeks because she couldn't hack it.

 

She is around a 7

I see a lot of hot chicks every day. I live in Southern California, Laguna Beach area and she isn't that bad. But, she isn't a bomb shell by any means either. Maybe over there on the East Coast you guys are lacking in the women department.

 

This validates my theory: A good chunk of the men on this thread spend there day jacking off to porn, cause they cant get any real ass. I had more to say, but a hot chick just walked by and I got distracted....wait in the porn world she would be a 4.

 

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