Snitch on Friend Who Lied to Get SA Offer?
I have a friend who lied to get her summer analyst internship at Morgan Stanley IBD for this upcoming summer. I came across her resume and realized half of the internships are bogus. She made up positions and titles; paid third party vendors to vouch for her internship experiences (comparable to those third party vendors who write college admissions essays to get Chinese nationals into U.S. schools).
She turned school club activities into work experience. The activities she actually didn't lie about were also skewed: overinflated titles (intern position was titled as "analyst") and lied about the dates.
She turned a part-time 1 month internship to a full-time 3 month job in order to cover up the fact that she took a leave of absence from school. She pretended to participate in all of her club activities throughout the year she took a leave of absence, even though she wasn't at school.
She covered up the fact that she took a year off from school and is now applying as an "overachieving junior graduating early" rather than "a senior graduating late because of a year-long vacation."
The reason I could piece this all together is because I've known her whereabouts over the past four years.
I have mixed feelings about this. I work at a BB myself and know what procedures I could take to report her shoddy resume to HR at Morgan Stanley. But she's still a friend. Should I be proactive and report it, or just let her do her internship. She'll probably fail to get an offer anyway?
What do you get out of her getting her offer revoked and meeting her downfall?
He gets to ride his moral high horse all over her.
You would be surprised the lengths some people will go to just for the moral high ground.
Agreed. I'm sure he'll let her ride him as well after the second or third round
snitch on the bitch. lots of lads and girls paying their due share in efforts not even getting interviews.
Just send the whole post to HR. She will get caught in background check anyway
Surely alarm bells will ring when she's addressing her background checks to a person not affiliated with the company she supposedly interned at? In addition to this, some background checks will contact the relevant societies / clubs to confirm senior leadership positions. I'm president of my uni's finance society and I've received a few before. Depends on who receives the email, but some will definitely inform the background checkers that her claims are bogus.
The background checks are normally sufficiently strong to at least call her resume into question, if not outright disprove it.
Two words: background check. HR will do the dirty work for you. Because if she found out you snitched, it might not send too well.
Extort her first
Sounds like the intro to a juicy porno
"I'm sure we can come to an arrangement"
+1 beat me to it.
Obviously that's the correct response then.
You sound so butthurt and bitter. Did she turn you down at some point and this is how you plan on getting back at her? You knowing her whereabouts for the last 4 years makes you sound like a stalker.
If you already have a job, which your post seems to indicate, who cares? Not your problem at all and HR is likely going to get to the bottom of it anyway. Of course you're going to get a bunch of young kids saying your should screw her over too because they don't know how real life works yet and they somehow think that if her offer gets scrapped it somehow opens a spot for them.
She can't turn me down, I'm a girl.
If you're wondering why I'm bitter, its because I work with sexist pigs like you all day long.
You claim that the guy calling you bitter is sexist, but I literally do not know of one male friend or acquaintance who would be brazen enough to snitch someone out like that. Your envy just speaks to the regrettable and unbecoming cattiness that exists between women.
If you can't take the heat, gtfo the kitchen. It seems like you haven't been working that long and if you're already so salty about it this is likely not the right industry for you.
This speaks to iggs comment too in that while sexism certainly does still exist, nothing tears women down like other women.
I guarantee I'm going to get shit for this...but it's questions like your OP that further the stereotypes you're trying to avoid. it's fine to be mad, but focus on bettering yourself, not tearing others down.
who the fuck ever told you life was fair?
Blackmail her. Make her your sex slave.
easy there goguen
hahahaha
delete
delete
You seem like an amazing friend. Despite the fact that her behavior is despicable, it would never cross my mind to rat out a FRIEND, unless my own job was on the line for it and even then ...
What do you gain out of this?
Some people want their friends to have a shred of moral fiber
Your thoughts are a bit douchey @thettixi
you sound bitter but I can understand why. if you google my post history, i actually called out a kid for lying on WSO.
reporting to HR is too much, let them do their jobs. this industry will sort itself out down the road. let's say she does get her full time gig at MS, maybe she won't ever make it to PE/HF or IB associate.
Yeah I don't quite think taking action here is the most appropriate thing but I don't get how people here think you should just ignore this (pertaining to your friendship with her). That's fucked up and unethical; she not only prevented 1 other kid from getting an interview/offer from MS, but probably any other firms she interviewed at as well. Bad behavior has consequences on others and that's not someone you should want to be friends with.
I see you're using the term "friend" here very loosely and I would not remain friends with this person regardless.
That said - don't report her. It's a bitch move. She'll trip herself up anyhow, and even if she doesn't, who cares?
Snitches get stitches.
+1
This website sometimes...
clearly a troll based on other posts.
the over-fluffing of "summer intern" to "summer analyst" happens all the time. I've seen a ton of people do it and get away with it
Summer analyst is fine.
Yeah I kind of thought that was the standard... I still made pitch books, did market comps, edited powerpoint, made excel spreadsheets/pivot tables, got drinks with clients, and got loads of coffee as a sophomore summer intern. Didn't feel like listing "Summer Intern/Analyst" was too far off. Is that really crossing the line? Especially since I was never given a formal title?
I had an official title of "Summer Analyst" and my group told me that HR gave everyone a talking to that they weren't supposed to call us "interns". Tough to imagine anyone really caring either way.
Wait ... are you telling me that "summer analyst" is not the industry standard term for summer intern?
You should. There are several hard working folks who work day in and out to secure such great opportunity. you should not let her piss over your hard work or that of others that you saw during recruiting
She will 100% get fucked over at some point down the road. You should do it first though, in exchange for guaranteeing you keep your mouth shut. Which you should do anyway.
I wouldn't do it. Karma is a bitch, it'll get her in the long run.
Also, There may be a time in your career where you may have to operate in a gray area. The last thing you would want is someone trying to fuck you over for it. I
are you in the process of getting your CFA charter? if so, the answer is an absolute yes
In any other case: to your prerogative. Just remember that these things have a way of materializing. If not today, then someday in the near future, so your assistance in expediting may not be necessary. If a firm wanted to vet the details of a resume, they could do so with very little effort.
I fail to see the connection to the CFA charter. Duty to clients.... don't think that's it. Duty to employer? Nope not that one. Supervisory duty? Nope, don't think it's that one either. Did you just pick guilty / all of the above for every question? ha
tongue in cheek in all likelihood when this was written. (sitting for L3 in a few months so should be fun). I was thinking along the lines of standard I(D) that fell under misconduct. Whistle blowing may potentially umbrella under the duty to employer but that's a bit ambiguous.
buddy of mine cleared L1 doing just that so I'm sure there's some intuition there :)
Loyalty is important, but so is the truth.
It is perfectly acceptable for this to cross your mind. And sometimes friends aren't the people you thought they were.
I think the best choice here is to stay far away from this, or if you have a responsibility to review resumes, point out the fact that these line items are obviously fake companies, but don't use stuff you'd only know as her friend against her. Professional public information is fair game and if your job is to review resumes or help do due diligence, don't forget you have a fiduciary duty to be more loyal to your employer than your friend.
Sorry. This sucks.
If there's a silver lining in this, you tend to get better at discerning lies when you catch someone in a lie.
Don't be such a little bitch.
Enough said really.
However, your "friend" (I'm guessing she's not really a friend as I understand the term) has long since left lying and embellishment behind and crossed into a disconcerting level of fraudulent behaviour. In your shoes rather than "snitch", I would sooner have a quiet word with her; telling her why she was stupid to do what she did (background checks etc). This may or not put you in a position to
and if you're lucky....
Give her the shovel and let here dig her own grave
I love how the comments have some correlation with the poster's title. Most of the "students" are taking the "Yea, knock her down and curb stomp her cause you know, ethics". While the people already working are in the "Don't get involved, its an no win situation" camp. Now, I'm going to sit back, grab some popcorn, and continue to watch this shit show.
Sometimes, life will put a person completely deserving of extreme punishment in front of you and then hand you a loaded gun. I have been in a few of these situations in my life.
The immediate emotional pay off from pulling the trigger will likely seem extremely high.
Nonetheless, you need to be terribly, terribly careful in these situations.
In almost all of these types of vigilante justice situations, I would strongly recommend you put the gun down and walk away.
At the very least, do this out of self-interest for your own material well-being, as the emotional rush of delivering vigilante justice can cloud your view on the real situation and the potential repercussions.
With the benefit of a few more years of life experience, I'd also recommend walking away out of self-interest for your soul. It sounds like this "friend" will fuck up at some point due to her nature and justice will be done. Leave it to that. There's no need to get blood on your hands here.
Ha ha you got out-hustled by a girl
did your mommy never tell you that nobody likes a tattle tale?
If this person were working in your group at your bank, my advice might be different. Then you may have reputational/ethical issues to consider.
The way I see it (this person isn't even at the same firm), you really gain nothing by ratting them out. The short-sighted view is that bringing judgment upon them will allow you to witness immediate karmic justice. This isn't karmic justice though. You would in fact be intentionally bring harm to someone else for no other reason than your own ego. Walk away. It may irritate you a little in the short-term, but it will be much better for your overall mental health in the long-run if you learn to let garbage like this go.
Negative user name to post content correlation.
You are assuming the intended user name reference relates to Faust.
And holy shit, I cannot believe the amount of MS thrown at the OP. Anyone at a young age in that position will likely struggle with these thoughts. The OP just tried to get some insight.
this is such a little bitch post.
nobody likes a rat.
Just stay away, if shes willing to lie about things that can be verified with a 3 minute phone call then she'll definitely burn your ass if she gets the chance. Don't give her a reason to drag you into that shit.
Old posts says this is a girl to folks who say, "outhustled by a girl," which I guess the hyperbole still applies here!
snitches get stitches
In an amazing plot twist, the OP is vetting his/her plan to try and Mike Ross the system. WSO you just got shyamalan'ed.
If you're not cheating you're not trying
OP,
I bet you and your friend are East Asian women. Don't worry, I am an Asian male.
lmfao I was thinking the same thing. no doubt
What do you gain?
If this was really your friend you wouldn't dry snitch. That said, if it is your friend, have better standards.
I think it should be commended that @thettixi is coming to WSO to help her make what is a very difficult moral dilemma. Instead of making idiotic comments about how resentful she is why dont you guys consider how some one in her position would feel about a friend cheating to get to the same position she worked so hard to get to. Prob cheapens her view about her own position.
It is completely understandable to have conflicting feelings about the situation - dont let these ethically shady bozos criticize you for it, That being said I do think that your friends situation is something that should be handled by HR. It minimizes the downside for you that would come from whistle blowing on your friend while having the upside of resolving he situation in a official matter. And if your friend's lying bothers you that much just cut her off of your life you don't need that unnecessary energy in your life anyway.
Just my 2 cents.
It's sad that some people spend so much time worrying about what other people are doing. Stop wasting your time and focus on something beneficial. To a certain extent, you have to respect the hustle.
Once you reach a point in your life where you could care less what other people are doing and are solely focused on you, you will be allocating your energy much more efficiently. GL
On another note, karma does exist and the universe always brings justice. As people, we should never be trying to bring others down, think positively or abandon the thought...
Throw her under the bus, but anonymously. It's unfair to lot of people who actually worked hard (I have seen people getting waitlisted for trivial reasons like not enough extracurriculars). It's client services and integrity matters.
You seem to me like a horrible friend and a person who is not cut out to make it in high finance. You really came online to ask if you should rat out a friend? If there as some aspect of the question where you personally have something to gain, ok maybe. But just because it isn't fair? Fucking weak.
Thanks for the advice-
I'm going to let HR do its thing. Like I said in my original post, she probably won't end up with an offer anyway and I agree with the sentiment that these things tend to have a way of sorting themselves out.
As for why I sounded so resentful of my "friend" - the person in question is from an extraordinarily wealthy family and has essentially paid people to construct a resume for her, paid people to vouch for her extracirrics, paid tutors to write her essays for her. For her upcoming Summer Analyst stint, her parents bought her a one-bedroom apartment across the street from Morgan Stanley. (Yes. In NYC. Hard cash).
She took an absence from college to live in 5 star hotel rooms in Puerto Rico and Italy for a year... She was certainly not working or breaking her back like so many kids I know have done for three years straight to land an internship like this. When the type of person who is racist towards minorities, classist towards low-income and welfare recipients, judgmental of MO and BO roles, LIES to get an internship she doesn't deserve... It doesn't matter if she's my friend - principle overrules.
Yeah, life's not fair. I get it. I'm pretty sure HR isn't going to catch this one. But I'll keep with the faith that karma will take hold when it comes to offer time.
good for you, be better than that brat.
Believe me, I completely understand your feelings on the matter. It's just human nature to resent someone in that situation. You took the high road though and with that it will become easier for you to ignore the random garbage going on around you and focus on your own path. Well done, I am glad you took the high road.
Lol at one-bedroom apartment across the street in cash. Spoiled brat.
Yeah but that 1br is in Times Square where she will be surrounded by all the swine of NYC, so who's really winning
Is this for IBD? Shouldn't background checks be completed by now? The stopped recruiting for SA IBD nearly four months ago.
And don't bank on the whole "karma" thing. Plenty of people get their jobs via fraudulent means and never get caught for it.
The truth will come out sooner or later. Also, anyone who has been able to slide through life like that often doesn't have the work ethic, drive and thoroughness to succeed in IBD, especially in a summer internship, where you only have a short time to prove yourself and there's huge downside potential.
Assuming she's still on the short list when offer time comes, HR will likely uncover the truth.
It's understandable that you would be bitter about this. Unfortunately it happens. You're doing the right thing by just going back to work and putting it out of your mind.
Guess what? Kids from wealthy families get breaks all the time that don't fall to the rest of us. Who cares? There is nothing you can do about it. She may not have even needed to forge her resume to get a job.
A couple of first-hand stories about how life works:
A girl I dated in college was the daughter of the CEO of a Fortune 100 company. She was studying some BS liberal arts major (anthropology or something like that) and viewed herself as an activist and would frequently go to anti-business protests (she was really hot so I was able to overlook that). Anyways, a couple of years later she graduates and moves to NYC without having anything lined up. She had zero interest in finance or business in general and as mentioned above was more or less against big corporations. I run into her later that summer, and she's working in IB at one of the top BBs. Her dad simply made a call a couple of weeks before the analyst program started, and she was handed a spot. She hated it and left after 6 months. She then landed at a top ad agency after another call from daddy.
Another girl I got to know when she took a finance internship after graduating from a top target (again, nothing lined up ahead of graduation) came from a very wealthy and connected family. As her internship was closing out, she took a trip to NYC with her mom and more or less went on a road show having dinner with the CEOs from a few BBs. Again, mom just made a call, and the dinners were scheduled with people like Jamie Dimon and John Mack. She was also given a place in the IB analyst class at a BB without going through the process. Similar to my ex-gf, she washed out in less than a year.
The point I am trying to make is that there is by no means a level playing field so don't worry about it. Focus on you and doing whatever you can to control your own destiny. Other people are dealt a different hand, and how they want to play it is up to them (crooked or straight).
SB for sounding like Rafiki from the Lion King
Don't really understand a lot of these posts... Since when is fabricating things on a resume "hustle"? Or reporting unethical behavior being a "rat" or "snitch" (a term with highly negative connotations)? There are plenty of kids out there who bust their ass, have high grades/scores, relevant internships, do things the right way, and can't even get an interview. Yet when someone lacks any morsel of integrity and bullshits, it's a-ok and all hustle... Makes sense.
The funny thing is, if this post was about someone lying about their race/ethnicity to get in through the affirmative action channel everybody would be up in arms about how unethical the individual was. Yet with fake internships, fake titles, fake descriptions, third parties paid to lie in her favor... hey, no big deal.
I'd report this in a heartbeat.
As much as it sucks that this person got the offer over someone more deserving, telling HR will likely only hurt you. Your friend (and your friend's family) made the fatal mistake of assuming that landing a FT IB position will, by itself, lead one to the good life, and chose to cheat her way in. I guarantee you she will either wash out of her job or get flagged when applying somewhere after IB.
Pffff... big deal, like no one ever saw a Linkedin profile, huh?
Well, look at yourself and think about the type of person you want to be.
What will happen to this young lady, who had her own share of struggles, unfairly move into a coveted role at a great bank? If you feel that you can shoulder the responsibility of your own actions, and fully understand the choice you are about to make, then take it with conviction.
There are many ways around this situation, and I would encourage you to consider how you can seek out the "justice" you desire through all of the other channels first. There are multiple opinions on this post already, so read through them all and make a final decision for yourself. We cannot truly comprehend your personal, professional, relationship motives because nobody here knows you and the situation as good as yourself.
Think through the long-term, short-term, relational, emotional, logical, impacts of what you are doing. Is it the individual, or the firm that you should target? What are the results of what you are trying to achieve and how does this action move you or those around you forward towards a better tomorrow?
Good luck.
Envy is never your friend. Take a step back and ask yourself " why the fuck do i really care" . If the reason has nothing to do with you, then this problem is not your business.
It's amazing how many people said "you shouldn't really care". It seems to be the case that turning a blind eye to cheating / illegal activity is the norm nowadays. Cheat at your own risk, if you get caught - don't blame the person who reported you.
It's even more funny how many said "you can't do anything about it". Of course she can - report the damn matter to HR. It may not change the compulsive liar's approach to life, but hopefully (at the very least) this occurrence would make the cheater think twice before doing something like this again. You'd be doing a service to the whole industry and society.
Thanks for being one of the few posters with a little bit of sense and integrity.
I work at a BB and I think we both know the chances of HR actually finding anything are little to none. I honestly think you should report her, we all work really hard to get where we are and lots of deserving kids may not get interviews. Her getting caught would set a precedent for the future and help ensure this sort of behavior doesn't happen.
If you don't take action it will only encourage other kids to follow in her footsteps and lie. In finance we have the rep of being tools and douches, but we are also hard workers and take pride in making it to where we are, lets not take that away.
Despite the conflict, doing that to someone you claim is a friend is a snake move, and goes beyond the "I want to see you do better" to "downright spite".
To those saying it'll set a precedent, you don't think there's been one already? And who else is going to know she was the perpetrator of a story and got her offer revoked? She'll be one of those anonymous stories we all heard during our summer who will have no effect on anyone else. If she's flagrantly lying, it'll come to light on its own. There's 2 separate issues here IMO:
1) Who would propose doing something like that to a "friend"?
2) Why is that a friend to begin with?
I think you should report her anonymously. I'm a bit tilted that so many other posters assumed you're asking out of spite or jealousy, or weren't immediately outraged at her actions. She committed fraud against the bank who hired her, and took a spot away from some deserving candidate who busted their ass but didn't get an offer.
Wall Street can only continue to function if there is trust. Between clients, between counter-parties. If someone is willing to make up their credentials and pay people off, they're not going to give a crap about conflicts of interests or any fiduciary obligations, they're just going to trade on the name of the bank and compromise on the system to the detriment of literally everyone else.
I think this is first and foremost a question of ethics, but as a society of self-interested people in finance I'm amazed this community hasn't condemned this fraud more strongly.
People being outraged at the fraud by the individual in question is not really the point of this thread. I think nearly everyone on here would condemn her actions. Most people who have been in the industry realize that this liar will be quickly found out by either HR or through their on-the-job actions. Compulsive liars rarely change their stripes. Their justice will be coming at some point in the not too distant future.
Snitching is an entirely different thing, which in this case i don't support because the OP has nothing on the line here. It's really none of their business. From my perspective this would be a very different case if it was someone's colleague doing something fraudulent that could hurt the company - in that case it should absolutely be reported. In this case it is HR's job to catch fraudulent applications, not some random third-party whistle blower.
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