2/14/12

Then what do you do?

Quit the minute it hits the bank?

Take a few days off to cool down?

Come in at 9 and leave at 5? Without a bonus, you certainly aren't getting paid for long hours or weekend work.

What would you do?

Comments (46)

2/13/12

You aren't entitled to anything.

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2/13/12
yl715:

You aren't entitled to anything.

You're right, you're not entitled to a bonus. But if you worked for it then you deserve the bonus. So STFU.

2/13/12
Banker88:
yl715:

You aren't entitled to anything.

But if you worked for it then you deserve the bonus. So STFU.

Of course- I didn't say otherwise. Good work (assuming such...) should be rewarded.

2/13/12
yl715:

You aren't entitled to anything.

Tool.

I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

2/13/12
yl715:

You aren't entitled to anything.

Fucking Dork.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

2/13/12
yl715:

You aren't entitled to anything.

Go back to reddit, you commie.

2/13/12

Assuming you're an analyst, if you get a zero bonus the bank is either doing miserably and can't pay their people or you're absolutely the worst analyst that's ever walked the Earth and you're likely going to get axed soon.

2/13/12

If it is the bank as a whole, you just kind of have to take it. If that was the case, I would be looking to lateral. If they have eliminated bonuses, layoffs can't be far off.

If I alone got 0 bonus, I would try to figure out what the hell I was doing wrong and fix it. I would think they would just fire you if you were so incompetent to merit no bonus; its not like there's a shortage of analysts these days.

2/13/12

whoops all your work on the company drive just disappeared...

In all honesty just fire the person it would be that much easier.

2/13/12
marcellus_wallace:

whoops all your work on the company drive just disappeared...

In all honesty just fire the person it would be that much easier.

Firing implies severance package, which is costly.

2/13/12

That can't be good news for you

XX

2/13/12

bonus is essentially deferred comp, so a bank paying you 0 (assuming you did great work) is pretty much akin to a bait-and-switch. i highly doubt this would happen, but if it did, morale would probably plummet and the bank would see a lot of top analysts leave...

2/13/12

It shouldn't be called a bonus, which implies optional. It's year-end compensation. That's why it's within a range based on pay grade. It's not some whimsical number that gets pulled out of thin air.

The reason we all work so hard all year is because we know that we are going to get more or less whatever the agreed upon figure was. If they stiff you, legally you probably can't do anything, but it is similar to theft (DEFINITELY true at a smaller shop, less true at an investment bank or larger organization where the decision may be less personal). If I even suspected it might be low, let alone a zero, I would dramatically cut back my hours. As far as I am concerned, my employer gets 40 hours a week for the base salary, the clock is running for anything above that.

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IB Interview Prep Pack

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2/13/12
  1. Find a place to lateral to.
  2. Blow as much shit as you can off of the drives you have access to from someone else's computer.
2/13/12

Isn't it quite rare for zeroes to be given out at the analyst level since analyst performance really has nothing to do with revenue?

I would think at the analyst level getting a zero is basically the bank saying "Find a new job, if you're still here in six months we're firing you."

2/13/12

0 bonus is your cue to find a new job. Wtf do I look like working these stupid hours with no comp?

2/13/12

I have not heard of an Analyst getting zero. Associates and above can certainly get zero.

2/13/12

Even at the associate level, I was told by a VP that if (I) ever get a zero, it's time to quit because that means it's not working out.

2/14/12

I have heard of an analyst getting 3 months bonus during a bad year and during a year when senior management was quite critical of her (actually moved her to a different office because it was not working out at all, and she was later laid off the following year).

So i think that 3 months is probably the floor.

Go East, Young Man

2/14/12

Quit because you weren't treated fairly. If you worked your 60-100 hours a week, you are entitled to a bonus, getting 0 dollars is like a middle finger to the face, you don't take that an don't respond.

The Four E's of investment
"The greatest Enemies of the Equity investor are Expenses and Emotions."- Warren Buffet

2/14/12

Move to a different firm. You are not being compensated for your effort and the bank doesn't want to fire you outright.

2/14/12

To be clear, I am not an analyst and didn't get a 0. Just hearing about all of the people across the street who seem to be getting the goose egg got me thinking. I tend to agree -- my salary gets 40-50 hours/week and no weekend time. Would be hard to do considering that I would feel bad leaving the rest of my (small) group out to dry. I would probably be relatively liberal with leaving early to interview elsewhere, etc.

2/14/12

An Associate at my previous firm got a super tiny bonus bonus, may as well have been zero, and it was essentially them telling him to go find another job. Thy didn't want to fire him and pay severance, so they figured they would just give him shit to make him leave. They moved him to the worst desk and kept making him do crappy work. He left on his own a couple months later.

"It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed."

Theodore Roosevelt

2/14/12

My friend at BB operations got a $2K bonus.

2/14/12
orangejulius:

My friend at BB operations got a $2K bonus.

F500 stubs for first years can be less than that in some cases.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

Best Response
2/14/12

There's a lot of misinformation on here... though some good info from Ravenous and Cartwright. Under normal circumstances getting a zero is your hint to go look elsewhere, but this has been a really effed up year for comp and any of the kids saying "you aren't entitled to anything," or Yoohoo, I'm not even sure why you bother posting because you add no value, can be dismissed fully as having no clue what they are talking about. I know some really good Associates who got fucked hard on their comp. For all you kids that think it's all performance related you need to wise the fuck up quick. It is a huge political game. To an extent it is a performance linked, but only very loosely and people get boned all the time, so here's the tip for your mousey nerds out there who think you can just be Harold from Harold and Kumar and still get paid... it doesn't work that way. You have to be good, but you need people to go to bat for you and unfortunately, some times you back the wrong horse. All you idiots who are saying that "if you are good you will get paid" don't know what you are talking about to be frank. There are definitely groups where the Group Head / Senior Bankers aren't vocal and won't fight for you even if you give the squeakiest clean rim job this side of the Mason Dixon... it's one of the unfortunate realities of working on the sell side in a portion of the business where you eat what other people kill. You might crush it for a VP and a Director who love your work product and would sing your praises till the cows come home and then they both get fired because the group gets restructured or because a deal they were tied to didn't execute. You don't have much control in a lot of things so the key is to focus on what you can control. If you are trying to increase your ability to get paid it doesn't always pay to be the little ninja cranker all the time. You need to be able to do the work, but a couple after work scotches and candid conversation with your higher ups after they've had a few more than advisable will give you a better compass than your associate's comments on your border formatting will. If your higher ups will back you then it doesn't matter what an associate thinks... and this is what they don't teach you in school... there isn't a fresh out of b school Associate or A-to-A promote in their right mind who would oppose a Senior Banker to try and ding you on your bonus. If your MD says "I like that kid, he works hard and does good work," you find me the Associate who still has another 6-8 months before they collect their check who's gonna be like "Fuck you Lumberg, he sucks." WON'T HAPPEN.

Try and get yourself a bit of an insurance policy if you can... it pays to drink with the big dogs boys and girls... oh and when you're on a roadshow, I don't give a shit what your sophomore ethics teacher at UVA taught you... you go to the goddamn strip club... you make sure that people saw that you were there. Gets a lot harder for a married MD to substantiate "poor performance" in the annual review when Clarence Chen knows you got a handy from Jasmine in the champagne room.

Lastly, your self worth isn't your bonus... I've been trying to come to grips with this myself because I'm a bit immature and the money matters a bit to me because I have some debt I'd rather pay down than not, but ultimately, I know that I am learning a shit ton, and that if I get a rougher bonus than I expect, it is often attributed to many of the factors above that I cannot control. All of this is merely evidence of the reason you should be looking out for numero uno when it comes to jumping ship, interviewing on the side, and keeping your cards close to your chest. Stay hungry...

2/14/12
rufiolove:

There's a lot of misinformation on here... though some good info from Ravenous and Cartwright. Under normal circumstances getting a zero is your hint to go look elsewhere, but this has been a really effed up year for comp and any of the kids saying "you aren't entitled to anything," or Yoohoo, I'm not even sure why you bother posting because you add no value, can be dismissed fully as having no clue what they are talking about. I know some really good Associates who got fucked hard on their comp. For all you kids that think it's all performance related you need to wise the fuck up quick. It is a huge political game. To an extent it is a performance linked, but only very loosely and people get boned all the time, so here's the tip for your mousey nerds out there who think you can just be Harold from Harold and Kumar and still get paid... it doesn't work that way. You have to be good, but you need people to go to bat for you and unfortunately, some times you back the wrong horse. All you idiots who are saying that "if you are good you will get paid" don't know what you are talking about to be frank. There are definitely groups where the Group Head / Senior Bankers aren't vocal and won't fight for you even if you give the squeakiest clean rim job this side of the Mason Dixon... it's one of the unfortunate realities of working on the sell side in a portion of the business where you eat what other people kill. You might crush it for a VP and a Director who love your work product and would sing your praises till the cows come home and then they both get fired because the group gets restructured or because a deal they were tied to didn't execute. You don't have much control in a lot of things so the key is to focus on what you can control. If you are trying to increase your ability to get paid it doesn't always pay to be the little ninja cranker all the time. You need to be able to do the work, but a couple after work scotches and candid conversation with your higher ups after they've had a few more than advisable will give you a better compass than your associate's comments on your border formatting will. If your higher ups will back you then it doesn't matter what an associate thinks... and this is what they don't teach you in school... there isn't a fresh out of b school Associate or A-to-A promote in their right mind who would oppose a Senior Banker to try and ding you on your bonus. If your MD says "I like that kid, he works hard and does good work," you find me the Associate who still has another 6-8 months before they collect their check who's gonna be like "Fuck you Lumberg, he sucks." WON'T HAPPEN.

Try and get yourself a bit of an insurance policy if you can... it pays to drink with the big dogs boys and girls... oh and when you're on a roadshow, I don't give a shit what your sophomore ethics teacher at UVA taught you... you go to the goddamn strip club... you make sure that people saw that you were there. Gets a lot harder for a married MD to substantiate "poor performance" in the annual review when Clarence Chen knows you got a handy from Jasmine in the champagne room.

Lastly, your self worth isn't your bonus... I've been trying to come to grips with this myself because I'm a bit immature and the money matters a bit to me because I have some debt I'd rather pay down than not, but ultimately, I know that I am learning a shit ton, and that if I get a rougher bonus than I expect, it is often attributed to many of the factors above that I cannot control. All of this is merely evidence of the reason you should be looking out for numero uno when it comes to jumping ship, interviewing on the side, and keeping your cards close to your chest. Stay hungry...

You Win Sir.... Bravo... Bravo... Erudite knowledge for the young chaps.

Fear is the greatest motivator. Motivation is what it takes to find profit.

2/15/12
rufiolove:

There's a lot of misinformation on here... though some good info from Ravenous and Cartwright. Under normal circumstances getting a zero is your hint to go look elsewhere, but this has been a really effed up year for comp and any of the kids saying "you aren't entitled to anything," or Yoohoo, I'm not even sure why you bother posting because you add no value, can be dismissed fully as having no clue what they are talking about. I know some really good Associates who got fucked hard on their comp. For all you kids that think it's all performance related you need to wise the fuck up quick. It is a huge political game. To an extent it is a performance linked, but only very loosely and people get boned all the time, so here's the tip for your mousey nerds out there who think you can just be Harold from Harold and Kumar and still get paid... it doesn't work that way. You have to be good, but you need people to go to bat for you and unfortunately, some times you back the wrong horse. All you idiots who are saying that "if you are good you will get paid" don't know what you are talking about to be frank. There are definitely groups where the Group Head / Senior Bankers aren't vocal and won't fight for you even if you give the squeakiest clean rim job this side of the Mason Dixon... it's one of the unfortunate realities of working on the sell side in a portion of the business where you eat what other people kill. You might crush it for a VP and a Director who love your work product and would sing your praises till the cows come home and then they both get fired because the group gets restructured or because a deal they were tied to didn't execute. You don't have much control in a lot of things so the key is to focus on what you can control. If you are trying to increase your ability to get paid it doesn't always pay to be the little ninja cranker all the time. You need to be able to do the work, but a couple after work scotches and candid conversation with your higher ups after they've had a few more than advisable will give you a better compass than your associate's comments on your border formatting will. If your higher ups will back you then it doesn't matter what an associate thinks... and this is what they don't teach you in school... there isn't a fresh out of b school Associate or A-to-A promote in their right mind who would oppose a Senior Banker to try and ding you on your bonus. If your MD says "I like that kid, he works hard and does good work," you find me the Associate who still has another 6-8 months before they collect their check who's gonna be like "Fuck you Lumberg, he sucks." WON'T HAPPEN.

Try and get yourself a bit of an insurance policy if you can... it pays to drink with the big dogs boys and girls... oh and when you're on a roadshow, I don't give a shit what your sophomore ethics teacher at UVA taught you... you go to the goddamn strip club... you make sure that people saw that you were there. Gets a lot harder for a married MD to substantiate "poor performance" in the annual review when Clarence Chen knows you got a handy from Jasmine in the champagne room.

Lastly, your self worth isn't your bonus... I've been trying to come to grips with this myself because I'm a bit immature and the money matters a bit to me because I have some debt I'd rather pay down than not, but ultimately, I know that I am learning a shit ton, and that if I get a rougher bonus than I expect, it is often attributed to many of the factors above that I cannot control. All of this is merely evidence of the reason you should be looking out for numero uno when it comes to jumping ship, interviewing on the side, and keeping your cards close to your chest. Stay hungry...

I have no doubt this is the truth. Any advice or thoughts on how to decide where you hitch your wagon? It isn't always clear which senior guy will go to bat for you (or anyone) come bonus time.

2/17/12
heebbanker:

I have no doubt this is the truth. Any advice or thoughts on how to decide where you hitch your wagon? It isn't always clear which senior guy will go to bat for you (or anyone) come bonus time.

my 2 cents from management consulting... hitch your wagon to the guy who is consistently closing deals and who seems like he's the rising star. If the guy on top of that seems like he wants to hang out, hang out with him, stroke his ego, whatever, you're golden. Watch out for higher ups who don't drink alcohol, they aren't to be trusted lol

2/17/12
rufiolove:

There's a lot of misinformation on here... though some good info from Ravenous and Cartwright. Under normal circumstances getting a zero is your hint to go look elsewhere, but this has been a really effed up year for comp and any of the kids saying "you aren't entitled to anything," or Yoohoo, I'm not even sure why you bother posting because you add no value, can be dismissed fully as having no clue what they are talking about. I know some really good Associates who got fucked hard on their comp. For all you kids that think it's all performance related you need to wise the fuck up quick. It is a huge political game. To an extent it is a performance linked, but only very loosely and people get boned all the time, so here's the tip for your mousey nerds out there who think you can just be Harold from Harold and Kumar and still get paid... it doesn't work that way. You have to be good, but you need people to go to bat for you and unfortunately, some times you back the wrong horse. All you idiots who are saying that "if you are good you will get paid" don't know what you are talking about to be frank. There are definitely groups where the Group Head / Senior Bankers aren't vocal and won't fight for you even if you give the squeakiest clean rim job this side of the Mason Dixon... it's one of the unfortunate realities of working on the sell side in a portion of the business where you eat what other people kill. You might crush it for a VP and a Director who love your work product and would sing your praises till the cows come home and then they both get fired because the group gets restructured or because a deal they were tied to didn't execute. You don't have much control in a lot of things so the key is to focus on what you can control. If you are trying to increase your ability to get paid it doesn't always pay to be the little ninja cranker all the time. You need to be able to do the work, but a couple after work scotches and candid conversation with your higher ups after they've had a few more than advisable will give you a better compass than your associate's comments on your border formatting will. If your higher ups will back you then it doesn't matter what an associate thinks... and this is what they don't teach you in school... there isn't a fresh out of b school Associate or A-to-A promote in their right mind who would oppose a Senior Banker to try and ding you on your bonus. If your MD says "I like that kid, he works hard and does good work," you find me the Associate who still has another 6-8 months before they collect their check who's gonna be like "Fuck you Lumberg, he sucks." WON'T HAPPEN.

Try and get yourself a bit of an insurance policy if you can... it pays to drink with the big dogs boys and girls... oh and when you're on a roadshow, I don't give a shit what your sophomore ethics teacher at UVA taught you... you go to the goddamn strip club... you make sure that people saw that you were there. Gets a lot harder for a married MD to substantiate "poor performance" in the annual review when Clarence Chen knows you got a handy from Jasmine in the champagne room.

Lastly, your self worth isn't your bonus... I've been trying to come to grips with this myself because I'm a bit immature and the money matters a bit to me because I have some debt I'd rather pay down than not, but ultimately, I know that I am learning a shit ton, and that if I get a rougher bonus than I expect, it is often attributed to many of the factors above that I cannot control. All of this is merely evidence of the reason you should be looking out for numero uno when it comes to jumping ship, interviewing on the side, and keeping your cards close to your chest. Stay hungry...

Well put. Unless you get something in writing that states you are entitled to X% of Y, then you are at the mercy of irrational human beings, and phenomenally greedy and egotistical human beings in this business. There are infinite excuses on the sell side, buy side, back side, any side that sound like "revenues were down," "comp is lower everywhere," "times are different" etc. Do yourself a favor, when the high hard one comes around at bonus time and you get pissed on, take a step back and look at the important things in life..... When you finally take a dirt nap, is your money going to pay its respects at your wake? Don't be so quick to burn any bridges because that WILL come back to bite you in the ass. Just start hunting aggressively for another job, take your vacation days and turn off your blackberry, show up on time, leave on time, but don't go jumping through any hoops any more because the writing is on the wall..... they want you gone soon. And when you get that new job, kindly look your boss in the eye and say you are leaving for greener pastures. If he or she protests and asks why, just be honest and say that you felt pissed on and under appreciated and if you were being paid the "market rate" then your boss should have no problem replacing you with an average person from "the market." Then, walk out the door and never look back. DO NOT work for one single extra day, leave that same day that you resign. If you were really that important and they needed you so badly, then maybe they should have paid you a bit more in the first place to avoid the headache of you leaving on that very day.

I want to be the best paid nobody that you never heard of.

2/14/12

Start updating that resume

2/17/12

don't give a shit what your sophomore ethics teacher at UVA taught you... you go to the goddamn strip club... you make sure that people saw that you were there. Gets a lot harder for a married MD to substantiate "poor performance" in the annual review when Clarence Chen knows you got a handy from Jasmine in the champagne room.

This is epic.

2/17/12

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

2/17/12
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

2/17/12
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

thats fine, the size of the bonus speaks for itself. it is what it is.

2/17/12
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

thats fine, the size of the bonus speaks for itself. it is what it is.

So low bonus = There won't be any investment banks left?

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

2/17/12
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

thats fine, the size of the bonus speaks for itself. it is what it is.

So low bonus = There won't be any investment banks left?

No. Just means their getting paid more fairly. Most of the work they do is nonsensical bullshit.
Let's dump abacus on ACA, effectively fucking them out of their money, and then collect a fee from them, for that service. Then lets have an ipo and collect 10% of the money they make. Companies are realizing that the banks have failed to do their fiduciary duties, and on top of that underwriting can now be done with computer systems. Their are people starving because of their lack of morals. Everyone is realizing that hence the bonus. I think this will continue. Sure we'll see a few upticks along the way, but the long term trend is down, and will eventually,follow the same path as the brokerage houses.

You dont have to be smart, to be a banker. Just an harvard degree in poetry. These morons are going bankrupt, and the smart people(quants) are getting richer. The labor market for financial services is getting more efficient.

2/17/12
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

thats fine, the size of the bonus speaks for itself. it is what it is.

So low bonus = There won't be any investment banks left?

No. Just means their getting paid more fairly. Most of the work they do is nonsensical bullshit.
Let's dump abacus on ACA, effectively fucking them out of their money, and then collect a fee from them, for that service. Then lets have an ipo and collect 10% of the money they make. Companies are realizing that the banks have failed to do their fiduciary duties, and on top of that underwriting can now be done with computer systems. Their are people starving because of their lack of morals. Everyone is realizing that hence the bonus. I think this will continue. Sure we'll see a few upticks along the way, but the long term trend is down, and will eventually,follow the same path as the brokerage houses.

You dont have to be smart, to be a banker. Just an harvard degree in poetry. These morons are going bankrupt, and the smart people(quants) are getting richer. The labor market for financial services is getting more efficient.

You dont realize what quants actually do, do you? Do you really think high freq trading is the end all for trading or sales? Do you think R2D2 is just going to waltz into a board room and manage the interests of mulitple clients?

2/17/12
Bernankey:
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

thats fine, the size of the bonus speaks for itself. it is what it is.

So low bonus = There won't be any investment banks left?

No. Just means their getting paid more fairly. Most of the work they do is nonsensical bullshit.
Let's dump abacus on ACA, effectively fucking them out of their money, and then collect a fee from them, for that service. Then lets have an ipo and collect 10% of the money they make. Companies are realizing that the banks have failed to do their fiduciary duties, and on top of that underwriting can now be done with computer systems. Their are people starving because of their lack of morals. Everyone is realizing that hence the bonus. I think this will continue. Sure we'll see a few upticks along the way, but the long term trend is down, and will eventually,follow the same path as the brokerage houses.

You dont have to be smart, to be a banker. Just an harvard degree in poetry. These morons are going bankrupt, and the smart people(quants) are getting richer. The labor market for financial services is getting more efficient.

You dont realize what quants actually do, do you? Do you really think high freq trading is the end all for trading or sales? Do you think R2D2 is just going to waltz into a board room and manage the interests of mulitple clients?

Exactly, the numbers are just there to justify the will of the client. The value added is by managing relationships efficiently and bringing new, more powerful partnerships to the table.

2/17/12
eriginal:
Bernankey:
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:
happypantsmcgee:
canyonman:

glad the banking bonuses are shrinking. The market is becoming more efficient in pricing their nonsensical service of getting paid to sink the economy. Eventually these bankers will be obsolete as computer system takeover to do ipo's, m&a, etc. Their bullshit advice is exactly that, and everyone knows it. Just like all the brokerage houses that went extinct, so will the ibd's

This isn't even worth addressing.

thats fine, the size of the bonus speaks for itself. it is what it is.

So low bonus = There won't be any investment banks left?

No. Just means their getting paid more fairly. Most of the work they do is nonsensical bullshit.
Let's dump abacus on ACA, effectively fucking them out of their money, and then collect a fee from them, for that service. Then lets have an ipo and collect 10% of the money they make. Companies are realizing that the banks have failed to do their fiduciary duties, and on top of that underwriting can now be done with computer systems. Their are people starving because of their lack of morals. Everyone is realizing that hence the bonus. I think this will continue. Sure we'll see a few upticks along the way, but the long term trend is down, and will eventually,follow the same path as the brokerage houses.

You dont have to be smart, to be a banker. Just an harvard degree in poetry. These morons are going bankrupt, and the smart people(quants) are getting richer. The labor market for financial services is getting more efficient.

You dont realize what quants actually do, do you? Do you really think high freq trading is the end all for trading or sales? Do you think R2D2 is just going to waltz into a board room and manage the interests of mulitple clients?

Exactly, the numbers are just there to justify the will of the client. The value added is by managing relationships efficiently and bringing new, more powerful partnerships to the table.

In other words their work is nonsensical bullshit. managing relationships? you gotta be fucking kidding me. The ceo could do that without paying an inflated ass fee. I'm glad Zuckerberg is only paying .2%

soon the fee will be reduced further as we will be able to do underwriting electronically. The only defense the banker's can cling to to is bullshit like management relationships. what a load of crap.but whatever like i said, ibd is going down the toilet. The labor market is pricing their services more efficiently. But we're not quite there yet, as long as w're above the zero line. Eventually the lawsuits however will push it far below zero, where it ought to be.

2/17/12
canyonman:

soon the fee will be reduced further as we will be able to do underwriting electronically. The only defense the banker's can cling to to is bullshit like management relationships. what a load of crap.but whatever like i said, ibd is going down the toilet. The labor market is pricing their services more efficiently. But we're not quite there yet, as long as w're above the zero line. Eventually the lawsuits however will push it far below zero, where it ought to be.

Youre an idiot. Underwriting will never be fully electronic as you still need an actual human to allocate who gets how much, mostly based on prior relationships and the roadshow. Why do you think theres typically a bunch of major BBs mixed in with some lower end shops on most offerings, especially of larger size? Surely a SINGLE guy with a speadsheet and decent sales force can sell the product to the safe money?
But its not done like that, if a big fish like Pimco is out fishing for 100mm on the offering and you know they want close to full size, yet allocate them only 10mm cause youre so oversubscribed, you can forget about dealing with them in the future. As a human, you can choose what rational options to take - you think your fancy formula in excel will come anywhere close to that?

As for gross fees charged, its all relative. If a company is getting $2bn in their coffers after the offering, do you think they mind dishing out 40mm, especially if the bond comes in UNDER the range that was promised? Or the IPO was 4x oversubscribed and popped 100% (social media blitz..) on the 1st day of trading?? Forgetting for a second the syndicate team directs their guys on the trading desk to use various gimmicks to make the price pop or at least stabilize it during the first few days of trade, its still highly preferable to hire a large team for your offering than a single small shop.

2/17/12
zeropower:
canyonman:

soon the fee will be reduced further as we will be able to do underwriting electronically. The only defense the banker's can cling to to is bullshit like management relationships. what a load of crap.but whatever like i said, ibd is going down the toilet. The labor market is pricing their services more efficiently. But we're not quite there yet, as long as w're above the zero line. Eventually the lawsuits however will push it far below zero, where it ought to be.

Youre an idiot. Underwriting will never be fully electronic as you still need an actual human to allocate who gets how much, mostly based on prior relationships and the roadshow. Why do you think theres typically a bunch of major BBs mixed in with some lower end shops on most offerings, especially of larger size? Surely a SINGLE guy with a speadsheet and decent sales force can sell the product to the safe money?
But its not done like that, if a big fish like Pimco is out fishing for 100mm on the offering and you know they want close to full size, yet allocate them only 10mm cause youre so oversubscribed, you can forget about dealing with them in the future. As a human, you can choose what rational options to take - you think your fancy formula in excel will come anywhere close to that?

As for gross fees charged, its all relative. If a company is getting $2bn in their coffers after the offering, do you think they mind dishing out 40mm, especially if the bond comes in UNDER the range that was promised? Or the IPO was 4x oversubscribed and popped 100% (social media blitz..) on the 1st day of trading?? Forgetting for a second the syndicate team directs their guys on the trading desk to use various gimmicks to make the price pop or at least stabilize it during the first few days of trade, its still highly preferable to hire a large team for your offering than a single small shop.

Oh please. i'm sure the brokerages were touting the same horseshit. hambrecht will be improved, i believe in it. It may not be perfect now , but its heading in the right direction.

2/18/12
canyonman:
zeropower:
canyonman:

soon the fee will be reduced further as we will be able to do underwriting electronically. The only defense the banker's can cling to to is bullshit like management relationships. what a load of crap.but whatever like i said, ibd is going down the toilet. The labor market is pricing their services more efficiently. But we're not quite there yet, as long as w're above the zero line. Eventually the lawsuits however will push it far below zero, where it ought to be.

Youre an idiot. Underwriting will never be fully electronic as you still need an actual human to allocate who gets how much, mostly based on prior relationships and the roadshow. Why do you think theres typically a bunch of major BBs mixed in with some lower end shops on most offerings, especially of larger size? Surely a SINGLE guy with a speadsheet and decent sales force can sell the product to the safe money?
But its not done like that, if a big fish like Pimco is out fishing for 100mm on the offering and you know they want close to full size, yet allocate them only 10mm cause youre so oversubscribed, you can forget about dealing with them in the future. As a human, you can choose what rational options to take - you think your fancy formula in excel will come anywhere close to that?

As for gross fees charged, its all relative. If a company is getting $2bn in their coffers after the offering, do you think they mind dishing out 40mm, especially if the bond comes in UNDER the range that was promised? Or the IPO was 4x oversubscribed and popped 100% (social media blitz..) on the 1st day of trading?? Forgetting for a second the syndicate team directs their guys on the trading desk to use various gimmicks to make the price pop or at least stabilize it during the first few days of trade, its still highly preferable to hire a large team for your offering than a single small shop.

Oh please. i'm sure the brokerages were touting the same horseshit. hambrecht will be improved, i believe in it. It may not be perfect now , but its heading in the right direction.

Brokerages? I dont mind em, theyre the ones sending us free food every friday just to send orders through them - clearly they are well aware where they stand on the pyramid. As for Hambrecht, i havent seen their name on a tombstone in forever. If thats improvement, then theyre doing it wrong.

2/17/12

One of those lights, slightly brighter than the rest, will be my wingtip passing over.

2/17/12
2/17/12
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