Software Developing at Prop Shop?

If you truly love software development and programming, you will probably not like prop trading or IB software development.

Unlike a Silicon Valley tech company where CS majors are rock stars; they are tech support guys at a trading firm or IB. Banks or trading firms don't care about the most efficient code or the sleekest UI or using the latest technology. They don't want to spend money on upgrading hardware/software or fixing things that are working "just fine". Developers are not revenue generators at a trading firm, they are overhead that has to be maintained to support its daily operations.

Also, there is a difference in programming language used. For example, if the proprietary code of the trading firm was written in C++, then that is what you will have to program in. So it might limit your career opportunities if you do decide to switch fields a few years down the road.

Also, it looks like you are mixing software development for a trading firm with development of trading strategies and algorithms. To develop trading strategies you need a strong background in finance and statistics; programming skills are not enough. Effectively you will have to switch your major from CS to finance. Research MFin and MSCF programs if you want to pursue that career path.

Hey there! I came from a computer science background and shared many of the same thoughts as you before joining a prop trading firm. Maybe I'm a little bias, but I think it's a terrifyingly exciting time to move into trading as computer scientist. Algorithmic trading is dominating the industry and most firms have pushed towards it. Many of the traders who interviewed me referred to themselves as "dinosaurs" if they didn't know programming. I'd say a CS background gives you far more options than a MFin or economics background in prop trading these days.

There's a range of strategies and firms out there, some are more finance demanding and some are more technologically demanding. Typically, prop shops that rely on tech demanding strategies such as HFT or machine learning will be the ones that respect software developers the most. Here's a couple of tricks I used to evaluate the firms:

1) Firstly, checkout their website - many prop shops have them just for recruitment. Look for mentions of technology and software development on the homepage. If they're sticking things like "we love technology" right there in the centre, you're probably on to a winner. 2) Read through some of their job postings, particularly non-developers ones. If they're looking to hire traders with knowledge of python or C++, they're likely fans of computer scientists. If they're recruiting machine learning specialists, they're probably using strategies you'd be interested in.

Just a word of warning, all prop shops have infrastructure requirements like any other software firms. So there are a wide range of jobs, from sitting on the trading desks to working miles away in the back office. My advice is: be honest in your interviews, no interviewer will be upset if you say you're more interested in the front office and explain it well. Focus on the positives: the excitement, the teamwork and the buzz of the trading floor rather than focusing on the dullness of cubicles. The guy interviewing you might work in a cubicle!

Developers working on the trading desks are usually called Quantitative Developers, so as a next step you might wanna go google these roles and start working towards the requirements :).

Not to mention algo trading shops(Jump, HRT, Virtu, etc) where devs are the king, even the medium latency shops(think IMC/Optiver) are starving for good dev talent, and you will get paid way better with better work/life balance than big tech companies. You will work a lot more though on those algo trading shops since you are actually responsible for the PNL.

He's not looking to be a Tech developer on "Wall Street", he's looking to be a developer at a prop trading firm. These are not to be cross-shopped with the Tech division at GS, if you're going to compare being a developer at a quant/algo shop then the appropriate position at a BB is a quant developer.

Tech at a BB is not even close to being a quant developer. You barely need to know how to program to work in the Tech division, and they take mediocre CIS/MIS/whatever-Information-Systems grads all the time.

Clearly you don't know what you're talking about, because Silicon Valley SDE positions compete with firms like KCG/Jane Street/Jump/HRT and the quant desks at BBs for the same kids, and pay is competitive across the board. In fact, pay at the trading firms can and is typically higher than at Silicon Valley tech firms since Facebook/Google and the super prestigious BB banks have a lot more prestige and reputation than some obscure HFT firm and don't need to persuade kids to join.

Salaries for entry level developers at algo shops are north of $125k base. Some pay as much as $175+ out of undergrad for developers. And if you actually go to a career fair at Harvard, MIT or Princeton, you'll see West Coast Tech firms trying to recruit the same kids as East Coast HFTs.

Does your girlfriend work in a BB Tech group or something?

I didn't say if you weren't at a HFT you were a mediocre developer, I said Tech groups take mediocre developers and HFTs don't due to other constraints.

You know what keywords aren't on your friend's resume that would be applicable to working at a prop shop? C++, low-latency, HPC, FPGA, etc.

The joke about all this is you're the student who thinks the way to work in quant trading is to major in finance and thinks working at Jump Trading as a quant developer is comparable to working at GS as a Technology analyst, and you're calling other's "ignorant". Clearly, you're also immature enough to put words in other people's mouths to try and fit your point - which is moronic seeing as this is the internet and what I said is clearly written above.

If you think this is me being arrogant, you might want to pick a career where people will give you points for trying.

FYI: None of the skills you listed in your above post are even compiled programming languages. JavaScript is the only detable one and that would be considered a scripting language. Half of those are just extensions of what's already listed. jQuery is a JS library. (tl;dr: those skills won't get you into a quant developer role either).

Actually, every single person in this thread either said you were wrong or wrote similar things to what I said. Only person I "shitted" on is you (and if you think someone correcting your mistakes is shitting on you, you need a father figure in your life).

Take your loss in stride. Like the guy in 21 said, you know what's worse than a loser? Someone who won't admit he played it wrong.

Hey guys! Thanks for the input! My school does not offer a finance major, and I won't be switching my major anyway. I'm experienced in several object oriented languages (C++, C#, Java); I don't really care what language my future employer wants me to code in.

I'm not entirely sure my school is a non-target. Google, Netflix, Facebook, etc. recruits on campus; we're a small school in the middle of nowhere so it's pretty cool that a few top companies make the trip out to check out our CS students. A handful of stem kids will go into investment banking or related field and a handful of kids will get a summer analyst internship, but those aren't the things I'm interested in. I don't actually think it matters a lot if my school is a target school when applying for software development roles. Almost all of the campus recruiters send me a coding test to make sure I'm qualified, and then interview me like they would anyone else.

Thank you for the awesome advice lebron and everyone else! I'll look into a few of the company names you mentioned in your post. I've heard of a few of them (Jane Street, SIG), but I'm very new to the professional finance world so I haven't looked into the majority of them yet.

To address the Tech Company vs. Prop Shop developer question: I have not gotten the impression that the top tech companies treat their developers better than the prop shops or vice versa. The pay looks to be about the same (bonuses at prop shops are better I think), but living in the bay area or Seattle would be super expensive. Overall, I believe I would be better compensated at a prop shop and maybe even valued more and have more impact, if I can find the right place. Further, I am passionate about the work that was described above as front office (trading floor) more than I am about developing APIs or data processing or similar job at a West Coast tech company, so I'll do some more research (thanks for the input, and name dropping some companies) and hopefully land a good internship this summer and a job in a year, if I'm lucky!

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how about be a doctor or something... i hear even the mediocre doctors make more money than the above average CS coders on wall st. i mean, on the CS/Wall St side, you have to be in the super 0.001% and maybe you hit 170k... meanwhile even the shitty doctors that barely work 40 hours a week take more 200k+

this is coming from a frustrated, yet very interested in finance, software guy. i have a full scholarship MS in CS degree (also got into Columbia, Carnegie Mellon and Brown for Grad school), been working 5-6 years now, and looking at CFA curriculum, and trade personal capital ($100k+). guess what, i'm finding it hard to break above the $150k glass ceiling through my day job. someone pointed out the numbers right - it doesn't appear like most people cross $130-150k in tech being individual contributor coders.. now i'm not the smartest guy i agree, but i believe making money is not just a function of IQ or ability to solve tough algorithms.. so maybe i'll have a real shot someday lol.

listen, if you are exceptionally smart, you will be fine and hit 200k+ no matter where you go. but if you are average - above average, statistically speaking you will not cross $150-200k being a software guy unless you bring about some equivalent of "pnl / front office / whaterever you wanna call it" like maybe generate passive income by building an app or something. yeah i know MIT guys that worked at TowerResearch n all, but even they're not rich from these day jobs.

if you throw monkey darts randomly on new jersey mansions, how many of them end up being homes owned by software developers? lol..food for thought. they're mostly finance guys or execs outside the scope of software/finance. no matter how you put it, i assure you they're not software guys.

if u have any advice for me all i'll ask is - - - what should people stuck making $150k a year with a limited IQ do to go to the next level of 200k+ ---- i would love to know. i'm a hard worker with a mix of fintech on my career path but hey i cannot change my genes and 2x my IQ. let me know.

btw my tech stack is C# .net and the usual web development bullshit - i will recommend you forgo this and instead focus just on python and c++ (no matter how old and obsolete c++ sounds, i can tell u the guys into low latency/c++/phython roles do make more than my base salary, although not a lot more, more like 20k'ish more... we all have the same lifestyles/cars/mansionbuyingpower at the end of the day so it's not going to make it or break it for you but yeah, i regret not having spent time on python/c++ during my years). bottom line - the quant type devs are indeed a notch higher than the infrastructure building devs - but not like they are 10x better.. i assure u, even they don't end up driving ferraris and owning mansions. it's all bullshit. be a doctor, like every fucking doctor i see has a more relaxed and financially rewarding life than the average software guy unless ur a mark zuckerberg type (ur not).

the sad truth is, a software position never takes u into a risk taking role where you generate pnl. whats even worse is, that a portfolio manager role puts u in a position of playing with other ppls money and skimming 1% off of it but programming doesn't. I personally know a 35 yr old PM who owns a $5mill mansion and gets a lot of his trades wrong but hey he is in a position of power or managing huge dollars. i feel the only way out is to just risk ur own capital but even thats not gonna get u anywhere unless u have millions to play with.

another sad truth is, no matter if ur software or finance, only the top 1 or 10% gets rich, most don't. the 90-10 rule applies no matter what industry u pick.. but i fucking hate how if ur a finance guy and u work on excel, u walk around in a suit n tie, but if ur a coder (who BUILDS excel) u don't (statistically) walk around in a suit n tie. oh and it's the finance guys that fly first class, not the quants.

i forbid my unborn children from being anything close to technology.